Topic: Racism in Football

[jillcwhomever]

It might be the simplest manner but it would still be unprofessional in that environment. She has a name, or if that is not known, a job title. Even saying something like "the black coach" or "the female coach" would make it more appropriate. I think?

Why is it even necessary to refer to the "Black coach" at all? We don't say the "white coach" do we? It is about understanding that they all people and they all deserve to be treated as such. Just say the coach over there, no one  needs to mention their colour at all.

[DangerScouse]

This is the type of ignorance that I'm talking about. Why countries like Romania that got nothing to do with black slavery should bin a word for a colour that they've been using it for hundreds or thousands years?

Should Nigeria change its name as well? The river Niger in Africa? Etc etc.

The word has unfortunately evolved to have direct associations with oppression and marginalising of black people.

The word 'Nigeria' isn't used in the context of identifying someone in terms of their colour and i don't think i need to comment further on the word 'Niger' or the disgusting variation of that word which is thankfully used less frequently these days but still needs to be eradicated entirely.

[DangerScouse]

Listening to Ba, I don’t think it’s even the Romanian word for black that the teams were angry about, it was that skin colour was used to describe someone.

You could well be right but the word itself is offensive to many.

[liverbloke]

regarding the 'chinese' argument

the next time you walk into your locally run chinese chippy or chinese or indian take away then please go up to the counter and say 'hi chinese man' or 'hi indian man' and see how stupid you sound and how long they take to throw you out and then see if it sounds racist or not or offensive or not

i play 6 a-side with a 'chinese' guy (i'll refer to him as chinese for the purposes of this argument) and one day we had someone new who was filling in for a missing player, anyway this guy kept on saying mark that chinese guy and watch for the chinese guy making the runs

i went up to my mate and said 'mate, do you find that offensive - do you mind being called 'the chinese guy'' and he replied 'why doesn't he just call me Alan (his name)'

nuff said really

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Why is it even necessary to refer to the "Black coach" at all? We don't say the "white coach" do we? It is about understanding that they all people and they all deserve to be treated as such. Just say the coach over there, no one  needs to mention their colour at all.

Oh yeah I fully agree, I was saying the same last night on here. I'm just saying that if you do feel the need to bring skin colour into it, it should at least be together with other descriptive factors.

[Dr. Beaker]

The irony here is that if the ref would have used a proper Romaniand racial slur, noone would have noticed.

This is an hilariously excellent point, and everyone should just have a little think about it.

[jepovic]

I understand the point you are making but i think you are missing the point. None of the payers last night were English or speak the language as their mother tongue but were unanimously abhorred by the usage of the word. How do you explain that?

Because they don't understand Romanian of course, and they assumed the worst. I can understand that, but I can also feel for the ref.

I just find it ironic how you preach that everyone is equal, yet elevate English to a special level that everyone is supposed to adapt to. Why? England and the US had no part in this game at all, yet you fully expect everyone to follow you. Suppose an English ref would have used a word that is racist in Turkish - do you think they should have stopped the game?

[DangerScouse]

Because they don't understand Romanian of course, and they assumed the worst. I can understand that, but I can also feel for the ref.

I just find it ironic how you preach that everyone is equal, yet elevate English to a special level that everyone is supposed to adapt to. Why? England and the US had no part in this game at all, yet you fully expect everyone to follow you. Suppose an English ref would have used a word that is racist in Turkish - do you think they should have stopped the game?

I'm Irish and if there is one thing you won't find me doing, is elevating the English on any pedestal. Fuckers pretty much eradicated our first language! 

[Stockholm Syndrome]

To use the example of if it was a woman, can you not see that the phrase "tell the woman to stop that" looks offensive as you read it. It's not showing her the respect to call her by her name or her job on the coaching staff. Thats pretty unambiguous to me, especially when the men would be identified by their name or title. So why is it different for "tell the black guy" when the white coaches would have their name and title.

Webo, in his place of work, where he is an important part of the game at hand, has been reduced to just being "the black guy". I doubt there was malice with what the 4th official said, nor is what he said actually offensive in the words, but in the context of the situation. Subconsciously or not, the 4th official is saying something which is reducing Webo down to just the black guy.

It's unprofessional language born from lazy use of race to casually identify someone in an otherwise professional place.

The fact that the 4th official thinks it's ok to refer to a black man casually by his race in a professional environment says a lot. He's not showing him the respect he would show others of a different race.

[markthescouser]

You could well be right but the word itself is offensive to many.

Oh yea, just saying that I think there’s 2 parts to all of this.

1. Is a foreign word which sounds like a slur in many countries, not just English speaking, but is not a slur in the original language acceptable in a conversation between two people who speak that language?
For me, yes, see cavani

2. Is it acceptable to refer to someone by their skin colour?
This should be the main discussion point for me, and I’m unsure, mainly because my knowledge of Romanian language, culture and history is vertually zero. I would personally never use it, but I’m a white guy from the UK where our history with the slave trade and colonialism has led to that being socially unacceptable. When you look at these sorts of things though you can’t just put yourself in the 4th official’s position and say that’s what I would have done, you need to put the 4th official in his position and say that’s what he should of done. From the admittedly little I’ve read, it seems Romania doesn’t have the same sort of history in that respect as the UK. So between the two extreme expamples of someone being referred to as “the black guy” in the UK, or “the white guy” whilst in Kenya, Romania could in reality sit nearer Kenya on that scale than the UK. What’s happening though is we’re seeing other white people and falsely aligning them with our own history, culture and guilt.

Edit: I say Kenya as that’s the only African country I’ve been to in the past year or so, so popped into my head as somewhere where that example would work

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Oh yeah I fully agree, I was saying the same last night on here. I'm just saying that if you do feel the need to bring skin colour into it, it should at least be together with other descriptive factors.

He was the only black guy as part of the staff. If there were 5 black guys and one white guy, I'd say the "white one".

[jillcwhomever]

He was the only black guy as part of the staff. If there were 5 black guys and one white guy, I'd say the "white one".

Or you could just point at the person concerned.

[drmick]

We are getting to a point where the word black is getting increasingly offensive. We see it with mental health terms- they start off as genuine medical terms then get increasingly adopted as insults and derogatory terms.

But for the word black- it is a genuine word that has omnipresent practical uses. Feels like we need a new word which we use to describe our shoes, clothes, paint etc.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

He was the only black guy as part of the staff. If there were 5 black guys and one white guy, I'd say the "white one".

Just saying the "black one" or the "white one" is demeaning when he has a name, a job title and a long playing career that probably warrants him not being referred to by just the colour of his skin. There were plenty of other ways he could have been described.

Imagine in 15 years time, with Sadio Mane as our assistant manager, if he was referred to by an official as just the "black one".

[Snail]

Just saying the "black one" or the "white one" is demeaning when he has a name, a job title and a long playing career that probably warrants him not being referred to by just the colour of his skin. There were plenty of other ways he could have been described.

Imagine in 15 years time, with Sadio Mane as our assistant manager, if he was referred to by an official as just the "black one".

Exactly.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Just seen the whole thing now and the explanation. For me the 4th official isn't racist just ignorant. I'd say it's just a case of him needing to be educated better and hopefully UEFA put measures in place for all officials to have same. Hopefully a simple apology from him, no need to destroy a man's career or life over something that can be resolved through education.

[jillcwhomever]

We are getting to a point where the word black is getting increasingly offensive. We see it with mental health terms- they start off as genuine medical terms then get increasingly adopted as insults and derogatory terms.

But for the word black- it is a genuine word that has omnipresent practical uses. Feels like we need a new word which we use to describe our shoes, clothes, paint etc.

No its about treating people as you'd like to be treated yourself. The obsession that some people have with wanting to split hairs on this subject is amazing.

[Mister Flip Flop]

We are getting to a point where the word black is getting increasingly offensive. We see it with mental health terms- they start off as genuine medical terms then get increasingly adopted as insults and derogatory terms.

But for the word black- it is a genuine word that has omnipresent practical uses. Feels like we need a new word which we use to describe our shoes, clothes, paint etc.

The word black in itself is not offensive. Context is everything.

[sminp]

The word black in itself is not offensive. Context is everything.

Nail. Head. It’s all about context.

Quite frankly I’m disgusted that people are even trying to defend this 4th official, if you are defending these actions then you are part of the problem.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Just seen the whole thing now and the explanation. For me the 4th official isn't racist just ignorant. I'd say it's just a case of him needing to be educated better and hopefully UEFA put measures in place for all officials to have same. Hopefully a simple apology from him, no need to destroy a man's career or life over something that can be resolved through education.

That wouldn't appease the masses though. This guy is done at a champions league level.

All predicated on Demba Ba matter of factly stating that you wouldn't say "this white guy". I hazard a guess that he had never met those officials before tonight so how could he possibly know.

[Dr. Beaker]

Or you could just point at the person concerned.

In some cultures, even mine, that is thought of as offensive, but I would be able to deal with it, it being a febrile football match atmosphere where we haven't got all day to discuss the relative merits. Like if a member of the public walking down the road said to me, "You, come here", I would take offence. However if a ref in a game said to me, "You, come here", I would comply.

But as I've said, many times, if everyone on the pitch shared the same first language we could expect to get to the bottom of it, but as that most definitely isn't the case it will never be fathomed out to everyone's satisfaction.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Nail. Head. It’s all about context.

Quite frankly I’m disgusted that people are even trying to defend this 4th official, if you are defending these actions then you are part of the problem.

I don't think anyone id defending him. It was a stupid thing to do and it's good that's it been brought to light. That's progress in my eyes and i applaud it. On the same level this guy is still a human being and even a stupid ignorant human being deserves redemption and a chance to change.

[elsewhere]

Just saying the "black one" or the "white one" is demeaning when he has a name, a job title and a long playing career that probably warrants him not being referred to by just the colour of his skin. There were plenty of other ways he could have been described.

Imagine in 15 years time, with Sadio Mane as our assistant manager, if he was referred to by an official as just the "black one".

well put

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Just saying the "black one" or the "white one" is demeaning when he has a name, a job title and a long playing career that probably warrants him not being referred to by just the colour of his skin. There were plenty of other ways he could have been described.

Imagine in 15 years time, with Sadio Mane as our assistant manager, if he was referred to by an official as just the "black one".

Mate, even the police when describing some suspicious person, they say "white/black, male/female, height, bald/curly...".

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Mate, even the police when describing some suspicious person, they say "white/black, male/female, height, bald/curly...".

Well.. yeah.. they don't say black and leave it at that. They also won't know the name, job title or history of the suspect, and won't be in the vicinity of them to point. It's not comparable in the slightest.

If Wabo had committed a crime, the police wouldn't come out and say "we're looking for a black man" and nothing else, would they?

[Elmo!]

In some cultures, even mine, that is thought of as offensive, but I would be able to deal with it, it being a febrile football match atmosphere where we haven't got all day to discuss the relative merits. Like if a member of the public walking down the road said to me, "You, come here", I would take offence. However if a ref in a game said to me, "You, come here", I would comply.

But as I've said, many times, if everyone on the pitch shared the same first language we could expect to get to the bottom of it, but as that most definitely isn't the case it will never be fathomed out to everyone's satisfaction.

If you find pointing offensive.... football probably isn't the sport for you given the amount players point at each other.

I feel pretty confident in saying pointing is an accepted form of identifying people in football.

[Dr. Beaker]

Well.. yeah.. they don't say black and leave it at that. They also won't know the name, job title or history of the suspect, and won't be in the vicinity of them to point. It's not comparable in the slightest.

I don't really go with this, 'he is a name, or he is well known'. You are getting a bit close to showing deference there, ('Oh it's Scholesy, he never times his tackles right'). I want referees to look at the player just as a player whether he is an eighteen year old making his debut or a seasoned megastar. Even though they know who they are dealing with, I want them to act as though they don't.

[jepovic]

Nail. Head. It’s all about context.

Quite frankly I’m disgusted that people are even trying to defend this 4th official, if you are defending these actions then you are part of the problem.

Ironic comment, since the context is that he wasn't speaking English in the first place.
These overreactions aren't helping the work against racism, in my opinion, it's just alienating good people.

Btw, if I would have pointed at a person as a child, anyone, I would have gotten a slap on the wrist. It's a pretty agressive body language in many cultures.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

I don't really go with this, 'he is a name, or he is well known'. You are getting a bit close to showing deference there, ('Oh it's Scholesy, he never times his tackles right'). I want referees to look at the player just as a player whether he is an eighteen year old making his debut or a seasoned megastar. Even though they know who they are dealing with, I want them to act as though they don't.

But this is a coach, not a player?

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Well.. yeah.. they don't say black and leave it at that. They also won't know the name, job title or history of the suspect, and won't be in the vicinity of them to point. It's not comparable in the slightest.

If Wabo had committed a crime, the police wouldn't come out and say "we're looking for a black man" and nothing else, would they?

But they do say black, when the person is black. My point was that even a high institution like police, they say white/black. There was no point for the ref to continue with the gender and other things like the police do, since he was the only black man there.

[Dr. Beaker]

If you find pointing offensive.... football probably isn't the sport for you given the amount players point at each other.

I feel pretty confident in saying pointing is an accepted form of identifying people in football.

In some cultures, even mine, that is thought of as offensive, but I would be able to deal with it, it being a febrile football match atmosphere where we haven't got all day to discuss the relative merits. Like if a member of the public walking down the road said to me, "You, come here", I would take offence. However if a ref in a game said to me, "You, come here", I would comply.

But as I've said, many times, if everyone on the pitch shared the same first language we could expect to get to the bottom of it, but as that most definitely isn't the case it will never be fathomed out to everyone's satisfaction.

[Dr. Beaker]

But this is a coach, not a player?

I don't get your point there LCH.

[jepovic]

No its about treating people as you'd like to be treated yourself. The obsession that some people have with wanting to split hairs on this subject is amazing.

I would say it's about treating people as black americans would like to be treated. The whole debate is absurdly centered around one language and one particular type of racism. Words and gestures that are fine in one language can be offensive in another language. Again - does anyone believe this debate would have happened if it would have been an English official accidentally using a Turkish racial slur?

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

I don't get your point there LCH.

You said you wouldn't want the officials to address players by their names, and to treat them all equally, which I think is fair. I was just pointing out that Wabo is a coach, and I'm not sure the same philosophy needs to be applied to coaching staff.

[Dr. Beaker]

You said you wouldn't want the officials to address players by their names, and to treat them all equally, which I think is fair. I was just pointing out that Wabo is a coach, and I'm not sure the same philosophy needs to be applied to coaching staff.

Well they are all subject to the rules and regs in the same way as the players and should be dealt with in the same way, as I see it.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Well they are all subject to the rules and regs in the same way as the players and should be dealt with in the same way, as I see it.

But players have numbers by which they can be identified and referred to by, coaches don't. And officials can't then just go round calling them by descriptive terms, because many can be offensive to an individual. Before I hit the weights I used to be called lanky - no one meant any offence by it, and I was lanky, but I absolutely hated it and it would put me in a bad place. But then other lanky people could be called lanky and not bat an eye lid.

[Dr Stu-Pid]

I normally wouldn't get involved in these conversations as they are usually a minefield of problems, but I think that there is a point here that many posters are missing.

I work for a large corporate company, and every quarter we have to do online 'compliance' training, part of which involves sections on discrimination in the workplace.  We are told very clearly that we should always avoid referencing anyone by their skin colour, sexual orientation, or religion in the workplace.  In fact, they have an example scenario very similar to this where a visitor asks you to identify a particular colleague, and the guidance is very clear that you should say things like 'the person on the left', 'the person in the blue shirt', etc.  In fact they go on to say that if there is still confusion the best solution is always to go over personally and introduce them rather than falling back on skin colour or similar.

Everybody in the company does this basic training, and senior management have much more focused and detailed training in this area as their positions of authority and responsibility mean that they are held to higher standards and their actions can have very severe ramifications for both themselves personally and also the company (lawsuits, negative publicity, etc).

I mention this because last night those officials were representing UEFA in a professional environment and were in a position of severe authority.  They should have known from their training that referencing skin colour when referring to players or coaches was simply not acceptable.  Before resorting to mentioning race they could have pointed, said ' the guy third from the left', 'the guy with his face mask around his chin', 'the guy in the Puma boots', etc.  If that still fails, then simply walk over and identify the person at close proximity.  There is just no reason to mention race.

So there are two possibilities here.  The first one is that UEFA does provide their matchday officials with training in this area and the 4th Official simply ignored it or forgot it, in which case he is responsible and should be held accountable.  Alternatively, UEFA doesn't provide their officials with this kind of training and so they should be held responsible and are not taking these issues seriously enough, which would be pretty damning give the number of UEFA lead anti-racism campaigns there have been.

Whether or not the official is racist or meant to cause offence is irrelevant in this instance, and instead it is the fact that he has failed to live up to the standards that should be set by people of authority in a professional environment, and that those actions could cause offence as a result.

[stevensr123]

Just saying the "black one" or the "white one" is demeaning when he has a name, a job title and a long playing career that probably warrants him not being referred to by just the colour of his skin. There were plenty of other ways he could have been described.

Imagine in 15 years time, with Sadio Mane as our assistant manager, if he was referred to by an official as just the "black one".

context matters massively. The guy was obviously not being racist ffs.he wasn’t saying it in a demeaning manner.

Like some people just place zero meaning on context now.

If a bunch of tall people and one short person was in a group, I would obviously point out the distinct difference (what ever stands out most] if I was trying to catch the attention of that person. Most people do this.

In this case it was a bench of white people and one Black person, and in his language negro means black. It’s not racist ffs.

Unless people think calling some black is something bad, then that’s racist in itself.

[Ghost Town]

The whole thing is mighty despiriting, from all angles, as usual. Much, much over-reaction and much, much underthinking going on. As usual.

[Doc Red]

This an excellent point.

There was that TV show on channel 4 where they did this experiement on a school. I remember for the adverts, they showed this one kid saying "I love being referred to as black". That was a really nice and positive statement.  People should not be a ashamed of their skin colour.

I worry this whole episode is taking us down the wrong path in terms of progress made over the years.

Have you read any remarks from those involved that mention feeling ashamed of their skin colour?
I gave my own example to offer some context, are you assuming I'm ashamed of my colour because I don't want to solely be identified or highlighted solely by it?

The issue is, generally someone that is white can go around their daily routinue without being highlighted or noted as "white". They get the luxury of being person "x" and any perceptions people have of them will relate to how they act/speak/dress.
I get it, I'm black. And I'm proud. But that's an adjective. That's what I am, but I'm also a person that presents all sorts of information about myself, explicitly and tacitly, consciously and subconsciously.

The assistant coach is black. I'm very sure he's proud of that and not ashamed in the least. But he's also an assistant coach of the football time in the midst of a game. There are numerous ways the assistant ref could have called him out; just assume Webo had been white, how would he have pointed him out amidst the group? Singling him out by his colour doesn't make the assistant ref racist, it does make him ignorant of the insensitivity of using that sort of remark, especially in an era where black minorities are speaking out about their rights, in this case, the right to be treated like everyone else on the pitch regardless of colour.