Author Topic: How to beat the parked bus  (Read 17646 times)

Offline rushyman

  • Not A Badgeman. Fuck him. Please. Someone. Anyone! But not Jonathan Pearce.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 59,618
  • On Halloween, parents send kids out lookin like me
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #120 on: March 7, 2017, 12:57:05 am »
I don't understand this

Before December Watford Hull Sunderland  Leicester Stoke tried it

6-1, 5-1, 4-1, 4-1

I don't know how that changed but you can look at the results after Coutinho got injured in the 2-0 home win v Sunderland and the whole thing starts to unravel

If you don't limit yourself with bad thoughts, you can fly

Jurgen Klopp

Offline fcsantos

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Believer
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #121 on: March 7, 2017, 01:01:49 am »
I don't understand this

Before December Watford Hull Sunderland  Leicester Stoke tried it

6-1, 5-1, 4-1, 4-1

I don't know how that changed but you can look at the results after Coutinho got injured in the 2-0 home win v Sunderland and the whole thing starts to unravel

All those teams didn't recklessly abandon their attacking football during our first encounter, they certainly did after, who can blame them!

Offline rushyman

  • Not A Badgeman. Fuck him. Please. Someone. Anyone! But not Jonathan Pearce.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 59,618
  • On Halloween, parents send kids out lookin like me
How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #122 on: March 7, 2017, 01:05:25 am »
All those teams didn't recklessly abandon their attacking football during our first encounter, they certainly did after, who can blame them!

All I know is it won't be a landslide on Sunday

Not particularly sure what happened. We WERE breaking teams down

The passing has got slower and slower. In those early months it was huge tempo ball flying around before a team knew what was happening, winning ball back frantically

Exactly like it was v Spurs and Arsenal. We honestly look like we don't care v the smaller teams at times. I'm sure that's not true but it's what it's seemed like
« Last Edit: March 7, 2017, 01:07:08 am by rushyman »
If you don't limit yourself with bad thoughts, you can fly

Jurgen Klopp

Offline fcsantos

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Believer
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #123 on: March 7, 2017, 01:08:00 am »
All I know is it won't be a landslide on Sunday

Not particularly sure what happened. We WERE breaking teams down

The passing has got slower and slower. In those early months it was huge tempo ball flying around before a team knew what was happening, winning ball back frantically

Exactly like it was v Spurs and Arsenal. We honestly look like we don't care v the smaller teams at times. I'm sure that's not true but it's what it's seemed like

I agree it wont be a land slide.

I disagree with slower passing etc, you can see against Spurs and Arsenal it's there.  It's a completely different game if teams are playing banks of 4 and 5.

Offline rushyman

  • Not A Badgeman. Fuck him. Please. Someone. Anyone! But not Jonathan Pearce.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 59,618
  • On Halloween, parents send kids out lookin like me
How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #124 on: March 7, 2017, 01:11:30 am »
I agree it wont be a land slide.

I disagree with slower passing etc, you can see against Spurs and Arsenal it's there.  It's a completely different game if teams are playing banks of 4 and 5.

I'm not sure you do disagree if you read my post again ;)

Klopp himself has sited this as one of main problems in the losses
If you don't limit yourself with bad thoughts, you can fly

Jurgen Klopp

Offline SerbianScouser

  • Far from world class.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,878
  • ...All the best
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #125 on: March 7, 2017, 01:13:19 am »
In those early months it was huge tempo ball flying around before a team knew what was happening, winning ball back frantically
First 13 games against the dross (bottom 13) our record was :

LWWWWWWDWLDWW   29 points and whopping 37 goals scored against them.

And then last 4 games against them:

DLLL   5:10

And it's because of these last 4 games we have this discussion because up until that point we were doing very well against them and top teams as well.

Offline rushyman

  • Not A Badgeman. Fuck him. Please. Someone. Anyone! But not Jonathan Pearce.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 59,618
  • On Halloween, parents send kids out lookin like me
How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #126 on: March 7, 2017, 01:15:20 am »
First 13 games against the dross (bottom 13) our record was :

LWWWWWWDWLDWW   29 points and whopping 37 goals scored against them.

And then last 4 games against them:

DLLL   5:10

And it's because of these 4 games is why we have this discussion because up until that point we were doing very well against them and top teams as well.

Yep exactly

It's hard to understand. If Klopp can't I'm sure as hell not gonna have any answers

We'll find out if the Arsenal result was good Sunday at about 5:45
« Last Edit: March 7, 2017, 01:17:13 am by rushyman »
If you don't limit yourself with bad thoughts, you can fly

Jurgen Klopp

Offline kingz

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #127 on: March 7, 2017, 02:01:11 am »


Wish that Klopp try something different. The fullbacks are the most important weapon against these teams and our system actually allow the fullbacks to get into prefect positions but ours are so average attacking wise and its costing us so why not try something different by moving Clyne to the left and Milner to the right back position and instructing Clyne not to move forward..

It will solve two problems.. Clyne is an excellent defender and we will have four players behind instead of three so less vulnerable to counter attacks also we will get better crosses from Milner because he is more comfortable on the right side ..

Offline Giono

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,927
  • And stop calling me Shirley
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #128 on: March 7, 2017, 08:16:48 am »

Wish that Klopp try something different. The fullbacks are the most important weapon against these teams and our system actually allow the fullbacks to get into prefect positions but ours are so average attacking wise and its costing us so why not try something different by moving Clyne to the left and Milner to the right back position and instructing Clyne not to move forward..

It will solve two problems.. Clyne is an excellent defender and we will have four players behind instead of three so less vulnerable to counter attacks also we will get better crosses from Milner because he is more comfortable on the right side ..


But Klopp's fullbacks are attackers. Clyne is not very good in that light.

What about moving Milner to the right and playing Moreno on the left?
"I am a great believer in luck and the harder I work the more of it I have." Stephen Leacock

Offline Popcorn

  • Sore bollocks
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,153
  • It's attached to your rod Motherlicker
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #129 on: March 7, 2017, 08:30:11 am »
But Klopp's fullbacks are attackers. Clyne is not very good in that light.

What about moving Milner to the right and playing Moreno on the left?
Was just about to mention this. I'd like to see us give that a try on Sunday.

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #130 on: March 7, 2017, 08:30:23 am »
But Klopp's fullbacks are attackers. Clyne is not very good in that light.

What about moving Milner to the right and playing Moreno on the left?

Rather play TAA on the right and keep Milner there if we're looking at better threat from the right, Moreno really is a lost cause at this point.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline redbyrdz

  • No to sub-optimal passing! Not content with one century, this girl does two together. Oh, and FUCK THE TORIES deh-deh-deh-deh!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,280
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #131 on: March 7, 2017, 08:32:31 am »
Having done a little bit of research into how we fare against these types of teams compared to our rivals what I have noticed is that we still score as much as anyone against them (even though you could probably argue about distribution of those goals as we've scored a lot in few of those games) but for me the main issue will still remain the fact we conceded 3 times as much against these teams than Chelsea and Spurs and we've conceded twice as much as City's comedy defence.

That for me is borderline unacceptable and the only thing I'm interested in regarding our improvement next season is whether we'll sort this out and start defending properly against the dross in this league. 1.53 goals conceded per game against bottom 13 teams is an absolute joke.

That sounds about right. Other teams have boring goalless games against negative teams, we end up with a 3-3 score draw.

Do you think it is since Rafa left, or since Hyypia left?
"I want to build a team that's invincible, so that they have to send a team from bloody Mars to beat us." - Bill Shankly

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #132 on: March 7, 2017, 08:34:56 am »
That sounds about right. Other teams have boring goalless games against negative teams, we end up with a 3-3 score draw.

Do you think it is since Rafa left, or since Hyypia left?

Rafa/Sami/Carra/Masch, take your pick.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Giono

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,927
  • And stop calling me Shirley
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #133 on: March 7, 2017, 08:40:37 am »
Having done a little bit of research into how we fare against these types of teams compared to our rivals what I have noticed is that we still score as much as anyone against them (even though you could probably argue about distribution of those goals as we've scored a lot in few of those games) but for me the main issue will still remain the fact we conceded 3 times as much against these teams than Chelsea and Spurs and we've conceded twice as much as City's comedy defence.

That for me is borderline unacceptable and the only thing I'm interested in regarding our improvement next season is whether we'll sort this out and start defending properly against the dross in this league. 1.53 goals conceded per game against bottom 13 teams is an absolute joke.

Interesting post. But you do highlight the weakness of the goals scored stat yourself. And I think it is critical.

I think those other teams have individual attacking talents that can break down defences on their own. They can afford to be more defensive as their attacking options are more clinical and have less defensive responsibilities. How often do Man City, Chelsea, Spurs, score first against the lower teams that either have to come out if their shell and attack to earn a draw...or roll over like a submissive dog and accept that there will only be one outcome?

We have an attack that can be stopped because we lack some pieces to the puzzle and some individual skill that can crack a tight defence early.

One of the fearures of Conte going to 3 at the back was not just to shore up defence, but to play with fast attacking wing backs. Man City has had good full back play for years. Spurs are big on full back play and have multiple options at full back. Arse are good against the dross and have decent fullbacks.

Our full backs are possession-losing machines in comparison, and do it far up the pitch for added damage. These low block opponent's want our wing backs to have the ball. Can you imagine them having the same strategy against Man City, Chelsea or Spurs?

So maybe they are conceding less goals because they are dominating matches early? Or because they don't have wingbacks crossing to the opposition and presenting an opportunity to counter attack on a silver platter?
« Last Edit: March 7, 2017, 08:45:30 am by Giono »
"I am a great believer in luck and the harder I work the more of it I have." Stephen Leacock

Offline Ski

  • daddle. Wouldn't recognise an idea, if it rang his doorbell and got invited in for dinner. He will survive.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,752
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #134 on: March 7, 2017, 09:09:50 am »
Sounds simplistic but from our side we were playing well and the players all trusted each other allowing for fast, flowing football. That all seemed to change following the Bournemouth and West Ham games where we got negative results. Prior to this players we're playing in small triangles and knowing where each other would be. Confidence was coursing through the veins. This is what we need to get back to.
Has Steven Gerrard scored a goal even more important than the one he got against Olympiakos - Is this the start of something BIG?

Offline Grobbelrevell

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,781
  • Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry & ignorance
    • The Grobbelramble
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #135 on: March 7, 2017, 09:11:19 am »
Comparing our PL record against the top and bottom 10 (based on current table(s)) under Klopp;

Top 10
Home: W8 D6 L1 F27 A12
2.0PPG
Away: W5 D4 L3 F19 A15
1.58PPG

Bottom 10
Home: W7 D3 L2 F35 A16
2.0PPG
Away: W8 D2 L7 F32 A31
1.52PPG

So, we've lost 5 more games and conceded 20 more goals against bottom 10 teams, in comparison with top 10 opponents.

PPG is almost identical overall as well, which is somewhat surprising given the narrative, although, our record really needs to be far, far better against the bottom half.
Twitter | Blog

TRADE COUNT: +19  /  SoS Member 6854

Offline Jookie

  • Ruptures, then repairs the tears
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,717
  • Muted Al 666's posts for my own sanity
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #136 on: March 7, 2017, 09:25:47 am »
Since Rafa's departure, we have conceded a minimum of 40 goals a seaason, under 4 managers.

That's the major issue. You can't achieve anything with that type of defending.

I always thought it was Skretl's fault. Apparently it wasn't.

Having done a little bit of research into how we fare against these types of teams compared to our rivals what I have noticed is that we still score as much as anyone against them (even though you could probably argue about distribution of those goals as we've scored a lot in few of those games) but for me the main issue will still remain the fact we conceded 3 times as much against these teams than Chelsea and Spurs and we've conceded twice as much as City's comedy defence.

That for me is borderline unacceptable and the only thing I'm interested in regarding our improvement next season is whether we'll sort this out and start defending properly against the dross in this league. 1.53 goals conceded per game against bottom 13 teams is an absolute joke.

Agree with this massively. Said it in a post above and in the Arsenal match thread. One our biggest issues against the teams who park the bus is our centre backs. I think at the start of the season they were winning their battle with the opposition forward and completely nullifying the opponents best chance to gain territorial advantage (via a long ball) and launch counter attacks. Recently they haven't done this as effectively. Means we are vulnerable and have conceded a lot of goals. The issue hasn't been about breaking teams down. It's about needing to break the down multiple times to win. A key of example of how you should grind a team down who park the bus was the Sunderland 2-0 at home. Because it was 0-0 for so long we always stood a good chance of getting a win. Or at least a draw.

We can always attack better against a packed defence. Better width from either the full backs and/or the left sided front 3 player would help. A physical forward might help too. But these things will only be effective if our centre backs dominate the opposing forward when the ball goes long. Ideally we need a centre back who is great in the air and fast over the ground. Matip is good at one of those things but his chronic lack of pace can make us susceptible to getting caught on the counter if the initial long ball isn't won. Same with Lucas and Klavan. Lovren probably has the best attributes to play centre back in this system but he's a bit inconsistent. I'd keep Matip, Lovren and Klavan but spunk a proportion of  our summer transfer budget on a top quality centre back. Well more important than getting a new GK or deep lying playmaker that some fans seem desperate for.

I think Jookie might just be the best fisherman on this thread.

Offline clinical

  • incision required - a bad case of an urgent rawkectomy? "And of course I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side."
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,761
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #137 on: March 7, 2017, 09:44:18 am »
Sounds simplistic but from our side we were playing well and the players all trusted each other allowing for fast, flowing football. That all seemed to change following the Bournemouth and West Ham games where we got negative results. Prior to this players we're playing in small triangles and knowing where each other would be. Confidence was coursing through the veins. This is what we need to get back to.

I think it's a combination of things. Of course confidence plays a big part.

But I think some of it is set up and some is the players. Full backs are important in breaking down deep defences by providing width and second outlet. I like Clyne but he isn't amazing in attack where Milner who's good for big games simply cuts back on his right and makes it even more compact in the centre.

Another left back and a winger immediately changes and improves our attack against these type of teams.

Regarding defending. We seem to have an issue in tracking runners on the counter. Mascherano used to be brilliant at it but since he's gone and Lucas had declined we have no one really who excels in this. Henderson does a decent job but not perfect. People blame the defence and whilst they can improve if our midfield was better at defending the counter they'd find it much easier.
Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

Offline Klippity Klopp

  • LFC. For life! Yes! Not just for Kloppmas.....nooo.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,438
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #138 on: March 7, 2017, 09:51:59 am »
First 13 games against the dross (bottom 13) our record was :

LWWWWWWDWLDWW   29 points and whopping 37 goals scored against them.

And then last 4 games against them:

DLLL   5:10

In those last 4 games we have never had our best front six of Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana, Coutinho, Firmino & Mane play together either.

Not that it is the only reason for those poor results.  But it hasn't helped.

« Last Edit: March 7, 2017, 09:57:04 am by Klippity Klopp »

Offline 12Kings

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,906
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #139 on: March 7, 2017, 09:53:44 am »
We need a bulldozer type player, someone who will make teams set up differently and hence make mistakes by freeing up the rest of their opponents attacking line. Bit like Suarez I guess, but we also need a very adaptable genius to lead in midfield, a tough bastard who will scare the shit out of em all.

Offline JackWard33

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,026
  • President of the Harry Wilson fanclub
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #140 on: March 7, 2017, 10:01:23 am »
Rather play TAA on the right and keep Milner there if we're looking at better threat from the right, Moreno really is a lost cause at this point.

He's our best attacking full back though. Against teams where we're barely going to have to defend at all he should be used

Offline Funky_Gibbons

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,908
  • Follow the gourd
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #141 on: March 7, 2017, 10:01:40 am »
I always thought it was Skretl's fault. Apparently it wasn't.

Agree with this massively. Said it in a post above and in the Arsenal match thread. One our biggest issues against the teams who park the bus is our centre backs. I think at the start of the season they were winning their battle with the opposition forward and completely nullifying the opponents best chance to gain territorial advantage (via a long ball) and launch counter attacks. Recently they haven't done this as effectively. Means we are vulnerable and have conceded a lot of goals. The issue hasn't been about breaking teams down. It's about needing to break the down multiple times to win. A key of example of how you should grind a team down who park the bus was the Sunderland 2-0 at home. Because it was 0-0 for so long we always stood a good chance of getting a win. Or at least a draw.

We can always attack better against a packed defence. Better width from either the full backs and/or the left sided front 3 player would help. A physical forward might help too. But these things will only be effective if our centre backs dominate the opposing forward when the ball goes long. Ideally we need a centre back who is great in the air and fast over the ground. Matip is good at one of those things but his chronic lack of pace can make us susceptible to getting caught on the counter if the initial long ball isn't won. Same with Lucas and Klavan. Lovren probably has the best attributes to play centre back in this system but he's a bit inconsistent. I'd keep Matip, Lovren and Klavan but spunk a proportion of  our summer transfer budget on a top quality centre back. Well more important than getting a new GK or deep lying playmaker that some fans seem desperate for.
Our centre-backs are massively exposed in our system, on the ball we have the two centre-backs and an ‘faux DM’ in defensive positions, everyone else are in the attacking third. The ‘smaller’ teams are sitting back, packing the centre of the pitch to force us out side and then hitting us with fast, direct counter-attacks to beat our press with very little resistance.

The two most ‘balanced’ teams in the league are Chelsea and Spurs, neither have as many issues as us dispatching the ‘smaller’ teams or have our vulnerability to counter-attacks because they have forwards who are clinical in the box and can score different types of goals and play with at least one dedicated DM (usually with two) so their centre-backs are less exposed and have a level of protection in front of them (if we’re comparing our defence to the Rafa teams think of having Alonso and Mascherano in front of your centre-backs).

The ‘top’ teams often have idealist managers who will try and impose their game on us rather than altering their tactics to suit. The best example of this was Spurs and Arsenal who tried to pass through us but our pressing was far too good for them.

If we’re going to continue with the 4-3-3 formation I’d like to see us spend a significant portion of our transfer budget on a quality striker that scores for fun against the smaller teams in the league and who’ll let us play a bit more balanced with more protection for the centre-backs. Get a quality DM too for added protection. We need another centre-back but we really don’t have to spend heavily there.
"And there are red and white scarves of Liverpool, and red and white bobble hats of Liverpool, and red and white rosettes of Liverpool, and nothing else. And the sun shines now."

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

  • Keita's shit, Bundesliga's shit, Bundesliga 2's shit
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,687
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2020 Champion Tipster*
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #142 on: March 7, 2017, 10:06:47 am »
Vardy (I think he could play off the left, matches our work rate and will score 15)

Interesting but not sure I agree. Vardy would be an excellent striker option for us but I don't think he's very effective from the left. And he certainly wouldn't be helping us break down deep defences. Sure, he'd score some goals because he's an effective forward. But he's not creative or a good dribbler in tight areas.

In those last 4 games we have never had our best front six of Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana, Coutinho, Firmino & Mane play together either.

Not that it is the only reason for those poor results.  But it hasn't helped.



Missing one or two players simply isn't a valid excuse for losing to these sides as consistently as we have recently. We won games without them earlier in the season.

Or do you still think we can't win games without Henderson?

Offline Klippity Klopp

  • LFC. For life! Yes! Not just for Kloppmas.....nooo.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,438
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #143 on: March 7, 2017, 10:17:20 am »
Missing one or two players simply isn't a valid excuse for losing to these sides as consistently as we have recently. We won games without them earlier in the season.

Or do you still think we can't win games without Henderson?

If you read my whole post, I said "Not that it is the only reason for those poor results.  But it hasn't helped."

I never said we couldn't win games without Henderson, you've got me confused with someone else.
« Last Edit: March 7, 2017, 10:29:38 am by Klippity Klopp »

Offline jepovic

  • Only interested in the "prestigious" games, so won't be celebrating anything less.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,835
  • Meh sd f
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #144 on: March 7, 2017, 11:12:46 am »
Sounds simplistic but from our side we were playing well and the players all trusted each other allowing for fast, flowing football. That all seemed to change following the Bournemouth and West Ham games where we got negative results. Prior to this players we're playing in small triangles and knowing where each other would be. Confidence was coursing through the veins. This is what we need to get back to.
Confidence is incredibly important. Just look at Leicester. That wouldn't really explain why we look confident against good teams though.

I think we think too much against the weaker teams. Against better teams we seize opportunities and play more direct. Against weaker teams we take far too many touches and play a much slower type of football.

Those teams want to drag the tempo down, and they succeed too easily. They let us have the ball in non-threatening areas, and they let us string 50 passes together. It looks nice and feels nice, but gets us nowhere. Eventually we get too comfortable, get sloppy and they catch us on the counter. Then we get stressed and nervous, and many of our players go hiding. Players like Lallana and Gini are like night and day in good times and bad times. Mane is better, he always try to look for a short route to goal.

Many top teams opt for a big guy on top, and flood the box with crosses. It's hard to do that and at the same time have a good passing game, so I think we should avoid that.

A specific quality that I miss is a long-distance shooter in midfield, who could take advantage of low defenses. Most top teams have this. We only have Coutinho.

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #145 on: March 7, 2017, 12:11:10 pm »
He's our best attacking full back though. Against teams where we're barely going to have to defend at all he should be used

Who is, Moreno?! Not even close.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,408
  • JFT 97
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #146 on: March 7, 2017, 12:18:02 pm »
First 13 games against the dross (bottom 13) our record was :

LWWWWWWDWLDWW   29 points and whopping 37 goals scored against them.

And then last 4 games against them:

DLLL   5:10

And it's because of these last 4 games we have this discussion because up until that point we were doing very well against them and top teams as well.

We were full of confidence and the opposition turned up expecting to get tonked. For me Mourinho showed the way to play against us. Refuse to play it out from the back, launch it forward at every opportunity and get men behind the ball when we have it. Since then our confidence has dipped and the opposition fancy their chances.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline Jookie

  • Ruptures, then repairs the tears
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,717
  • Muted Al 666's posts for my own sanity
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #147 on: March 7, 2017, 12:28:18 pm »
Our centre-backs are massively exposed in our system, on the ball we have the two centre-backs and an ‘faux DM’ in defensive positions, everyone else are in the attacking third. The ‘smaller’ teams are sitting back, packing the centre of the pitch to force us out side and then hitting us with fast, direct counter-attacks to beat our press with very little resistance.

The two most ‘balanced’ teams in the league are Chelsea and Spurs, neither have as many issues as us dispatching the ‘smaller’ teams or have our vulnerability to counter-attacks because they have forwards who are clinical in the box and can score different types of goals and play with at least one dedicated DM (usually with two) so their centre-backs are less exposed and have a level of protection in front of them (if we’re comparing our defence to the Rafa teams think of having Alonso and Mascherano in front of your centre-backs).

The ‘top’ teams often have idealist managers who will try and impose their game on us rather than altering their tactics to suit. The best example of this was Spurs and Arsenal who tried to pass through us but our pressing was far too good for them.

If we’re going to continue with the 4-3-3 formation I’d like to see us spend a significant portion of our transfer budget on a quality striker that scores for fun against the smaller teams in the league and who’ll let us play a bit more balanced with more protection for the centre-backs. Get a quality DM too for added protection. We need another centre-back but we really don’t have to spend heavily there.


I think there's a number of ways we can solve this problem and it'll be interesting to see what Klopp does. Getting tighter defensively by not committing as many players forward is definitely an option. I think that would come primarily from not committing both full backs forward at the same time. The knock on effect is that you might not be able to press as effectively high up the pitch with one less player in that advanced area of the pitch. I think the main knock on effect though is that you may lack width on occasions. I think that's fine as long as you play with Mane on one wing and someone who is comfortable playing wide on the other wing. That would also help if you go for a more traditional centre forward who has a physical presence. Probably means Coutinho would have to drop back into midfield on occasions and compete with Wijnaldum and Lallana for a place in midfield. Again this is not necessarily a bad thing as long as Coutinho can show the defensive responsibility that Wijnaldum and Lallana do.

Don't agree with your specialised DM shout. Unless we are changing are system fundamentally, I think Henderson has done well enough in that role to continue there. Plus Emre Can is a good challenger for that position if he can be persuaded to sign a new contract. My shout for a top centre back is on the premise that the current system stays very similar. Like you said, our centre backs are exposed in this system so you need very, very good ones (i'm talking Vidic/Ferdinand level) for it to be consistently effective.
I think Jookie might just be the best fisherman on this thread.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

  • Keita's shit, Bundesliga's shit, Bundesliga 2's shit
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,687
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2020 Champion Tipster*
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #148 on: March 7, 2017, 12:29:51 pm »
If you read my whole post, I said "Not that it is the only reason for those poor results.  But it hasn't helped."

I never said we couldn't win games without Henderson, you've got me confused with someone else.

As I said to you before Saturday's match when you were telling me how difficult it was going to be without Henderson because of some pretty pointless win/without stats last season, I don't think missing one player has anywhere near the impact on a result people continually make out. I think it's an easy, simple answer for fans when there are actually deeper problems, be it one-off issues or more persisting ones.

It's obvious that our problem against low-block sides are mostly tactical. We're hugely efficient at counter-attacking and counter-pressing, which works best when there is a) space in behind, particularly because it gets the best out of Firmino dropping deep, luring defenders into him and either he or a team-mate he lays it off to hitting Mané into space and b) the opposition play through midfield, where our press triggers (mostly through Lallana) and we can win the ball back on numerous occasions to launch quick attacks with the opponent off-guard and out of defensive shape.

However, in my opinion, we can be hugely inefficient at passing and combination play in tight areas which is and always will be the best way to break down a parked bus, as Arsenal have shown over the years. Firmino dropping deep is pretty pointless when defenders have no interest in following him, Mané's explosiveness becomes less effective (though given that he is still quick on the ball too, he's far from a problem), Lallana can't trigger the midfield press because it gets bypassed, etc.

For me Gini Wijnaldum is the best example of all of this. He's probably been our best big game player this season. Goals against City, Chelsea, Arsenal, as well as nearly scoring the winner against United. Even without the goals and increased chances (because of the space on the break) though, he's generally had excellent performances where he has used his physicality to dominate good teams trying to play through midfield. He's also been near the top of our completed passes in a lot of these games.

Whereas he's possibly one of our least effective players in games against "the rest", particularly away from home. No where near the top of our completed passes, less occasions to use his physicality to win the ball back as like Lallana he gets bypassed, a disappointing lack of threat from range, etc.

People talk about us breaking down the bus earlier in the season but I'm not sure we did as often or as effectively as people think. Sure, a hapless Hull tried and failed. West Brom were fairly deep and turgid (though perhaps not as much as expected) before an excellent Coutinho goal opened them up. But Southampton and United both nullified us on the whole in the exact way we've seen weaker sides than them do against us.

The main difference between those two games and, say, Hull and Leicester is what Jookie is talking about. Back then we were defending much better - partly because Matip and Lovren were consistently playing, which helps as the drop-off in quality between those two and our cover is bigger than anywhere else in our squad, which is where I would agree with your personnel point more, and partly because I think we were physically fresher as a side to press better - and would get the point.

But anyway, regressing, the main example people seem to use of us 'breaking the bus' is the Watford 6-1. I don't think it's entirely valid. Watford were in more of a medium block than a low block. I can recall countless occasions in the first half where there was certainly enough space in behind which we exploited (I'm thinking Kaboul right up Firmino's arse roughly between their area and the half-way line). They foolishly tried to take the game to us early on and were punished.

I don't think it's a chronic problem though. The easiest way to overcome it is by having better quality (and defending better again to ensure we don't lose as many games at the very least). Be that in the form of a striker who can score from nothing and swing these games, more pace and width from the left hand side, and/or a better edge-of-the-area combination footballer in midfield.

Equally though I don't think it's a coincidence Klopp had similar problems at Dortmund at different times. I think the style of football he looks to play will always be more effective against sides that come at us more. He's no different to any manager in the regard of having strengths and weaknesses: Wenger's football for example is the opposite. I'd rather have it our way because I think it's easier to fix.

A specific quality that I miss is a long-distance shooter in midfield, who could take advantage of low defenses. Most top teams have this. We only have Coutinho.

Agreed, and even Coutinho blows very hot and cold. I think there was a stat knocking around that he scored more goals outside the area for club and country than anyone else in 2016, but then he must have been bang up there for most shots outside of the area as well. Consistency and power from range is a trait I would be seriously wanting in the midfielder we sign.

It would free more space for Coutinho in those instances as well - frequently he's got two or three bodies instantly around him because they know he's our major threat and any lay-off to a team-mate once the shot is closed off doesn't really alarm them in the same way.

Offline Giono

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,927
  • And stop calling me Shirley
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #149 on: March 7, 2017, 12:33:35 pm »
Who is, Moreno?! Not even close.

He is a left-footed converted winger, who is quick and has a tendency to overlap wide giving space to Coutinho. You think he's worse than Milner's right footed, slow cut ins and chipped crosses to the keeper? Plus Moreno has recovery pace when we are countered.

Yes, he has some faults, mostly in our third, not in the opponent's third so much.

I would really like to see him get a match vs Burnley this weekend.
"I am a great believer in luck and the harder I work the more of it I have." Stephen Leacock

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

  • Keita's shit, Bundesliga's shit, Bundesliga 2's shit
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,687
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2020 Champion Tipster*
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #150 on: March 7, 2017, 12:37:24 pm »
He is a left-footed converted winger, who is quick and has a tendency to overlap wide giving space to Coutinho. You think he's worse than Milner's right footed, slow cut ins and chipped crosses to the keeper? Plus Moreno has recovery pace when we are countered.

Yes, he has some faults, mostly in our third, not in the opponent's third so much.

I would really like to see him get a match vs Burnley this weekend.

What about Milner's 'right-footed, slow cut ins' where he then accurately passes it into a team-mate (usually Firmino) in a dangerous area on the edge of the box?

I think you and others are doing Milner a disservice. He's not only playing because he can defend better. He's playing because he's a far more intelligent footballer that no amount of pace or a left foot is going to overcome.

I'm surprised Moreno hasn't been used as a sub more often to stretch teams, but it's yet another instance where people are forgetting how bad he was at times because he's barely played. And it's not even just his defending. It's his end product as well. Fuck all point getting on the overlap when you're just going to fizz it straight into a defender's legs or behind every single body in the area almost every time.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,908
  • Follow the gourd
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #151 on: March 7, 2017, 12:41:29 pm »
He is a left-footed converted winger, who is quick and has a tendency to overlap wide giving space to Coutinho. You think he's worse than Milner's right footed, slow cut ins and chipped crosses to the keeper? Plus Moreno has recovery pace when we are countered.

Yes, he has some faults, mostly in our third, not in the opponent's third so much.

I would really like to see him get a match vs Burnley this weekend.
Moreno comes infield much, much more than Milner though.
"And there are red and white scarves of Liverpool, and red and white bobble hats of Liverpool, and red and white rosettes of Liverpool, and nothing else. And the sun shines now."

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #152 on: March 7, 2017, 12:43:14 pm »
He is a left-footed converted winger, who is quick and has a tendency to overlap wide giving space to Coutinho. You think he's worse than Milner's right footed, slow cut ins and chipped crosses to the keeper? Plus Moreno has recovery pace when we are countered.

Yes, he has some faults, mostly in our third, not in the opponent's third so much.

I would really like to see him get a match vs Burnley this weekend.

Good grief, I think he's far worse than Milner. He's quick, that's literally it. Anything that requires any technique, or positioning, or brains, then nah. That's the last thing we need to get into the side.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline YerBaldyHead

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 36
  • There shall be no mercy in Jurgen's dōjō
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #153 on: March 7, 2017, 12:50:45 pm »
From watching the Chelsea game last night, and it's something I've noticed them do a few times this season, especially away from home, they seemed pretty content to let West Ham have the ball and come on to them. I was watching and was fooled into thinking 'West Ham might have a chance here, they're keeping the ball putting pressure on the Chelsea's defence' then boom, 4 passes and Chelsea score. What happens then is there is obviously a greater emphasis for West Ham to come forward, resulting in more Chelsea counters, which they were unusually wasteful with last night.

Every time we struggle against the smaller sides it's the same scenario, us with all the ball playing side to side in front of the entire opposition. We need to start baiting teams, giving them the confidence to come forward and counter. I look at Chelsea's team compared to ours and there's no way they should be utilising counters more. Now, doing this does mean relying on your defence to not concede, which may pose problems to us, but it's worth a try. Our players thrive on space, hence the results in big games where teams don't just come to camp in their own half.

Also I don't see any use for Wijnaldum in these games. I posted about him after Arsenal praising him as our best big game player, but against the likes of Burnley he's redundant. We don't need a player breaking up play and linking the midfield and attack if we've always got possession. I'd bring Lallana into Wijnaldum's role and Phil into Lallana's (which in my opinion is exactly where he should be playing but that's a different argument). Keep Bobby up front and have Origi left cutting in with Mane right, and have them into changing but sticking wide, stretching the defence. If needs be have Origi down the middle and Bobby left.

I know Firmino is often useless out wide but in these games where we have few clear cut chances we need a recognised striker to be able to finish. I called it back in October/November time when we were top of the league that not having a starting striker would hurt us at some point, and it has. A big part of Firmino's game is his pressing but again, if we've always got the ball is this necessary? I think back to the Southampton game where he misses that chance at 0-0 and feel we've gotta have someone more clinical when we have so few chances

Only positive we can take from our problems against these sides is that they are so obvious that there's no way they aren't being worked on. Doesn't make me any less worried about Sunday though.

Offline Giono

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,927
  • And stop calling me Shirley
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #154 on: March 7, 2017, 02:16:17 pm »

What about Milner's 'right-footed, slow cut ins' where he then accurately passes it into a team-mate (usually Firmino) in a dangerous area on the edge of the box?

I think you and others are doing Milner a disservice. He's not only playing because he can defend better. He's playing because he's a far more intelligent footballer that no amount of pace or a left foot is going to overcome.

I'm surprised Moreno hasn't been used as a sub more often to stretch teams, but it's yet another instance where people are forgetting how bad he was at times because he's barely played. And it's not even just his defending. It's his end product as well. Fuck all point getting on the overlap when you're just going to fizz it straight into a defender's legs or behind every single body in the area almost every time.

You are right, Moreno isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer at times. But I don't think that Milner is a huge improvement defensively. And against a low block counter I think Moreno's ability to recover is of more value than Milner's positional sense back in our third. While against top 6 the Milner would be better in the middle third and in our third.

Moreno started the season getting some match time until the Carra-Neville Axis-of-Punditry went on the attack. So these days when he does play he overdoes things in a 5-10 minute window he is granted, often running around wildly a lot trying to get involved. Hard to judge him on those appearances.

When he has started in Cups it is with thrown together 11s featuring U23s, very difficult to develop an understanding or to have players aggressively running into the box. Wingback - midfielder and wingback - wide forward are relationships that need to develop over time. Rightly or wrongly he hasn't had much time to do that.

He has had 2 starts this season for the first team in the league. The 4-3 win over Arse in August and the 4-2 win over Palace in October. In both matches Coutinho was on the top of his game.

I`m not arguing that Moreno is a superstar, but against a team like Burnley it may be worth a shout. And in my original post in this thread mentioning Moreno I was suggesting that it would be interesting if we tried starting with Milner on the right and Moreno on the left against Burnley. I`m also curious how effective Milner would be on his natural right instead of on the left.

One other benefit is that we`d have a left-footer for free kicks and corners. And Moreno has decent set piece delivery.
« Last Edit: March 7, 2017, 02:17:48 pm by Giono »
"I am a great believer in luck and the harder I work the more of it I have." Stephen Leacock

Offline SerbianScouser

  • Far from world class.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,878
  • ...All the best
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #155 on: March 7, 2017, 03:29:28 pm »
So maybe they are conceding less goals because they are dominating matches early? Or because they don't have wingbacks crossing to the opposition and presenting an opportunity to counter attack on a silver platter?
When I see such shocking stats of us conceding against the dross as twice as much as City's comedy defence and 3 times as much as Chelsea and Spurs the conclusion I draw from it is that dross teams manage to drag us down to their level much more often than the aforementioned teams.

I watched City against Sunderland the other day and they faced the exact same tactics we do against these teams. Sunderland pressed them high for obvious reasons but City refused to kick it long because that would be exactly what Sunderland wanted. So they took risks, refused to hoof it and insisted on passing out from the back every single time. What that means is that they played their football entire game and didn't allow Sunderland to drag them down to their level.

Risks City took were huge but that's how they got their first goal, they managed to pass through their press and got themselves a 5v5 in the final third from which they scored.

We are not smarter than these teams if we think they're taking all these risks just for the sake of it, you can't cheat it. When a team like Leicester presses you high if you start hoofing that for me is a pure, unadulterated football cowardice. If you're a keeper, CB or DM and you don't have enough football courage to get on the ball under pressure against these teams then you have no business being a Liverpool player.

Gist of it for me is that we have to stop letting these teams drag us down to their level and play our football for 90 mins even if the risks are huge and we pay the price for it - eventually it'll be worth it.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,155
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #156 on: March 7, 2017, 04:15:10 pm »
But Klopp's fullbacks are attackers. Clyne is not very good in that light.

What about moving Milner to the right and playing Moreno on the left?

I think that is a good plan at home against the dross.

If we are worried about being done on the counter then play Clyne and Moreno. Clyne is not great going forwards but he has the pace to get back if needed.
Roger Scruton was right about everything.

Offline redbyrdz

  • No to sub-optimal passing! Not content with one century, this girl does two together. Oh, and FUCK THE TORIES deh-deh-deh-deh!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,280
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #157 on: March 7, 2017, 06:59:17 pm »
Comparing our PL record against the top and bottom 10 (based on current table(s)) under Klopp;

Top 10
Home: W8 D6 L1 F27 A12
2.0PPG
Away: W5 D4 L3 F19 A15
1.58PPG

Bottom 10
Home: W7 D3 L2 F35 A16
2.0PPG
Away: W8 D2 L7 F32 A31
1.52PPG

So, we've lost 5 more games and conceded 20 more goals against bottom 10 teams, in comparison with top 10 opponents.

PPG is almost identical overall as well, which is somewhat surprising given the narrative, although, our record really needs to be far, far better against the bottom half.

The thing that stands out most is that we concede twice as many goals against the bottom 10 away from home than the top 10 away. To me it sounds a little bit like complacancy - we don't expect them to fight that much. It also says that we don't have a fear factor away from home. Bottom-of-the-table teams should be thinking 'oh shit, Liverpool are coming' but they don't.
"I want to build a team that's invincible, so that they have to send a team from bloody Mars to beat us." - Bill Shankly

Offline 88_RED

  • Not a real bookie though.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,722
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #158 on: March 8, 2017, 09:48:39 am »
Comparing our PL record against the top and bottom 10 (based on current table(s)) under Klopp;

Top 10
Home: W8 D6 L1 F27 A12
2.0PPG
Away: W5 D4 L3 F19 A15
1.58PPG

Bottom 10
Home: W7 D3 L2 F35 A16
2.0PPG
Away: W8 D2 L7 F32 A31
1.52PPG

So, we've lost 5 more games and conceded 20 more goals against bottom 10 teams, in comparison with top 10 opponents.

PPG is almost identical overall as well, which is somewhat surprising given the narrative, although, our record really needs to be far, far better against the bottom half.

Most of the losses this season have been to teams in the bottom 3.
When a team is fighting for their lives and fighting tooth and nail for every ball, it seems we can't cope.
F*CK 0FF Mourinho..

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #159 on: March 8, 2017, 11:58:04 am »
It seems like we get ropadoped every time against these small teams. Rather than being patient, keeping our shape, we start making acts of desperation, opening up too much. Patients and discipline are important parts of mental toughness, I'm sure our guys are putting everything in but when anxiety builds and we lose confidence, things start to fall apart.

There's other stuff we can do in summer but for me, the system isn't broken, it's our mentality.  If we play with more discipline, get our confidence back and don't try and force things I think we'll turn it around.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.