Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[lamad]

... Just caught up on the last few pages and a few whiskies, and forgot half of what I wanted to say.

And still you make more sense than most MPs and Leave voters when stone cold sober.

[Dr. Beaker]

And still you make more sense than most MPs and Leave voters when stone cold sober.

And that previous post (the long one) was brilliant and I'm sure will resonate with everyone on here - even if that last one was bollocks.

[Dr. Beaker]

Oh I've just seen that Francois on the telly going on about how his  dad won the war and how he is made of the same stuff and will repel the EU foe. FUCK OFF you charlatan pipsqueak, basking in the reflected glory of genuine heroes. If your antecedents could see the EU, and how it has prevented you being in the situation where you saw your brethren having their guts blown out and limbs blown off, they wouldn't be backing you, you pointless, pernicious, self-serving useless cretin.

[Ghost Town]

Okay, so how do I put this? I am not British, but since approx. age 16 have been in love with all things (well, most, lol) British. I am an anglophile, I love your language, your history (good and bad), your culture - you guys. I lived and worked in London for a while back in the late 90s. I always figured in my retirement years I would spend a lot of time on the English and Scottish coasts and with exploring all the parts of the country I haven't seen yet (and that's a lot although I have been around a bit).

So apart from Remain being the logical thing (looking at economy, rights etc.) I am deeply invested in this from a personal point of view (I wrote some longer rants on here shortly after the referendum). My heart is bleeding when I see the state Britain and its people are in. At the same time I feel a bit like a lover spurned... wherever I went in the UK I was always welcomed with open arms and so much friendliness and warmth. Even with Britain always having been more Euro sceptic than other countries, I thought that the positives of what the EU represents had gotten a certain hold in British society. But then Brexit happened and it's like... the British saying, hey you Europeans, we don't want to be aligned with you anymore. We don't value what you try to do and so we don't want to be with you fullstop. I try to rationalise and of course it is not "the British". Many hold a different view, but it still hurts (may sound strange, I know).

For the past three years I have been torn between varying degrees of depression, anger and hope. Being depressed at the utter stupidity of it all, trying to accept that there will be a Brexit at one point. Mad at the way this is being handled and the Leave camp still chasing unicorns and selling it to those gullible enough. A few weeks ago I had reached a point of 'oh you lot, just leave with a no deal then, it might be the only way some learn of the effects'. But that option will hurt so so many people, especially those who already struggle, that I cannot really stick with it. So then hope kicked in (again), that by some miracle enough decision makers would see sense and stop the whole thing. Mainly by now I am hoping for a longer extension and that at the end Brexit will simply be cancelled (or it will be very very soft).

All this time I am thinking, while I may sometimes be conflicted about my feelings regarding the best way forward, I am on the outside - at the end of the day my view is rather insignificant. How must all of you feel, who have to directly deal with this every day, in your lives, with friends, family, mates, and in regards to your future.

Some of the EU people I know who have lived in the UK for many years have packed their bags: One couple, both German, with a pre-school kid, he used to work for London Transport, she worked at a bank. They are now back in Frankfurt, she already has a new job, he is a stay at home dad for now, but as an engineer will surely find work. Another couple, she is German and a professor at Oxford, he is English and in the last few years worked for a brewery (he said that there are a lot of non-British working there and he can see that industry is doomed in parts). They have two kids, dogs, a farm with horses. A few weeks ago she got a job offer in the South of Germany and she took it and they have now moved there. Both of these families would have loved to stay in the UK and surely would have done so without Brexit, but there is so much uncertainty that they grabbed these opportunities and left. Of course this is a privilege only EU citizens have and maybe those with Irish family background or similar. Most of you will have to live through it all, come what may.

So this whole thing makes me feel ragey and sad and helpless and I am Remain Remain Remain. I don't want you to leave and I never thought that this mess is where Britain and the EU would end up in the year 2016 and after...

Sorry for this rant, you can shout me down now if you like. 

Fantastic post, from the heart and definitely resonates. We love you, too. You and the rest of Europe. We belong together.

I'm one of the unlucky ones who has no Irish or European ancestary to call upon. If we leave, I'm stuck here with the fucking morons and c*nts, all of them resplendant and triumphant. I'm a well known Remainer and Europhile in my area so I will get it bad from them. They'll be likes dogs with two dicks around me.

[Ghost Town]

The Labour members were offered a choice of leaders.
The had to choose between a leader who promised to fight to expose the Tory Brexit lies, he argued we should not accept Brexit if it brings economic disaster. his argument never won over all those momentum supporters, they supported the candidate who argued we must respect the result of the referendum.

I think one thing to consider is that Labour members probably did not have Brexit in mind when they chose Corbyn over Smith.

I don't think that they made that choice because Corbyn demanded that we respect the referendum, or any other aspect of his Brexit position. And I don't think they rejected Smith due to his warnings about Tory Brexit lies and his wisely suggesting that the result be ignored if it was disadvantageous.

I'd say that at that point Besxit still seemed a lifetime away.

I guess they chose him because they believed he would genuinely introduce the many policies and changes that they believed were essential to rebuild this country and make it fairer and less nasty, whereas they didn't quite trust that Smith would do that - rightly or wrongly.

That's Corbyn's big selling point, I think. People really believe that he is crazy/eccentric enough to really revolutionise the way the country is run, and genuinely build a fairer Britain, instead of just saying he will, like everyone else does, but without delivering.

That he's a class A knobjockey in so many other ways seems not to matter compared to that. That's how desperate so many Labour voters in this country had become for fairness and change. On that score, I don't think I can really blame them, even if Corbs has turned out to be  a nightmare over Brexit.

(Edited)

[jason67]

Yep. I'm effectively going to be disenfranchised for the rest of my life unless Brexit is stopped. I'm not voting for any party that enabled it and in our two party system that rules out any chance of my vote ever counting.

I remember back to the summer of 2012 when we held the Olympics and how proud I felt of my country. It wasn't perfect, sure, but I felt that at a fundamental level Britain was a largely open, decent, tolerant, welcoming nation. There were divisions as there are in any society, political and otherwise, but I never had the feeling they were irreconcilable. Brexit shattered that illusion for me. It's all so desperately sad.

Reads like one of your HT threads when we are still 0-0. 

[goalrushatgoodison]

Bit confused here, I thought most of NI voted remain, which is understandable? The £1bn bribe for the DUP to back the Tory's was always a bit dubious and founded on what? Then when the Tory's fucked them over with the backstop, whatever so called partnership they had was over.

The majority of NI did vote remain but DUP opposed it, as we all know. I was just pointing out that if the DUP had supported remain, it's reasonable to assume the vote to stay would have been overwhelming.

My overall point is that they would be in a more difficult position now if they had supported remain in the referendum. Their position on Brexit would be very much at odds with their position on the Union and the simple fact that NI  could avoid Brexit by joining with the South would  be much more of a debating point than it is now.

Don't get me wrong they would brazen it out anyway but it would be more difficult and this would most likely cause them short term electoral damage. Although you can never be sure in NI. Their position just appears more consistent as Brexiteers than it would if they had supported remain.

The bribe wasn't about Brexit per se ( at least not the bribe from the Tories!). With the numbers the way they were after the election that money would have been available to prop up a Tory Govt regardless of Brexit.

[Ghost Town]

I don't think the bbc news is run by right-wingers, it seems far more like they have been cowed by numerous tory governments threats to their funding to remain impartial.

Did you read the link I posted? It seems to suggest that a number of people high up in BBC News/politics are right wingers, and that while there has long been questions about lefty influence within the BBC (going back to the 1940s), there never seems to have been similar questions about right-wingers:

Otherwise, why would they have employed Nick Robinson as chief political correspondent. In 1985 he was President of the Oxford University Conservative Association and caused considerable embarrassment with his right-wing extremist views.

Robinson's senior editor, Thea Rogers, was also a strong supporter of the Conservative Party. In 2012 she left the BBC to become special advisor to the chancellor of the exchequer, George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford. In July, 2015 the chancellor told thousands of teachers, nurses, police, firefighters and civil servants that they would face another four years of having pay rises limited to 1% a year. At the same time he gave Rogers a 42% pay increase and she now receives £98,000 a year.

Then there is Robbie Gibb, the current editor of all BBC TV’s political programmes. Before he joined the BBC he was a vice-chairman of the extreme right wing Federation of Conservative Students and went on to become chief of staff to the senior Tory MP Francis Maude.

Andrew Neil, is the presenter of five hours of television a week including This Week, the Daily Politics and Sunday Politics. He is another with a right-wing background. He is a former Rupert Murdoch editor, was a researcher for the Conservative party and is chairman of the Conservative-supporting Spectator magazine. He also argued his free market views at the Hayek lecture at the rightwing Institute of Economic Affairs in November 2005.

It is interesting to note that David Cameron replaced his previous press secretary, Andy Coulson, with the then editor of BBC News, Craig Oliver. Soon afterwards, London mayor Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson recruited BBC political correspondent Guto Harri, to head his media team. When Harri moved on to work for the Murdoch empire he was replaced by Will Walden, a BBC news editor at Westminster.

For over twenty-five years Jeremy Paxman presented Newsnight. It was only after he left the show that he admitted that he had been a long-time supporter of the Conservative Party and in the past had been approached to become the Tory candidate as London mayor. He was replaced by Evan Davis, who in 1998, published a book, Public Spending, where he argued for the privatization of public services.

Although the BBC only seems to employ Conservative supporting presenters. As soon as Melvyn Bragg became a Labour peer, he was immediately banned from appearing on any BBC programmes that might have any political content.

I wonder if they look at their output as a whole, most topical or satirical comedy is going to be anti-tory since they are the party in government, so in the name of 'balance' the news shifts to the right rather than trying to actually be balanced.
[/quote]

https://spartacus-educational.com/spartacus-blogURL71.htm

[No666]

I remember back to the summer of 2012 when we held the Olympics and how proud I felt of my country. It wasn't perfect, sure, but I felt that at a fundamental level Britain was a largely open, decent, tolerant, welcoming nation. There were divisions as there are in any society, political and otherwise, but I never had the feeling they were irreconcilable. Brexit shattered that illusion for me. It's all so desperately sad.

After the Brexit vote, I said to my daughter that that is the model of Britain we have to try to fashion out of the debris. No matter what happens, we cannot sit in despair, we must be active and try to shape the future image of our country.

[Iska]

Okay, so how do I put this? I am not British, but since approx. age 16 have been in love with all things (well, most, lol) British ... Sorry for this rant, you can shout me down now if you like. 

Lovely post, thank you, and I’m sorry about it all.

If it makes you feel any better (lol), another way to think about it is that this isn’t really about you at all, or even about Europe as such - it’s more an internal ritual pantomime that’s got out of hand, few people really deep down care about it, but here we all are somehow dug in like a derby day crowd, or arguing relatives round the Christmas table.  Part of me still hopes that eventually the taxi home will arrive, or the ref will blow the whistle, and we can all go home and come Monday morning act like it never happened, because in a real sense it didn’t.

[Ray K]

^isn't that the defrocked priest who kept getting arrested for trying to disrupt sporting events?

Yep, the guy who cost the Brazilian marathon runner the Olympic gold in Athens I think.
It's a sad indictment of the state of mental health nowadays that he's been in a paranoid delusional state for a couple of decades without any signs that he's ever been treated for it.

[rob1966]

Lovely post, thank you, and I’m sorry about it all.

If it makes you feel any better (lol), another way to think about it is that this isn’t really about you at all, or even about Europe as such - it’s more an internal ritual pantomime that’s got out of hand, few people really deep down care about it, but here we all are somehow dug in like a derby day crowd, or arguing relatives round the Christmas table.  Part of me still hopes that eventually the taxi home will arrive, or the ref will blow the whistle, and we can all go home and come Monday morning act like it never happened, because in a real sense it didn’t.

The problem is, while most of us, like the end of the Truman show, will forget all about it and move onto the next thing, this desire by the Tories to keep their party in power/further political ambitions/make money has torn families and communities apart, hurt the economy, damaged businesses and caused job losses.

[So… Howard Philips]

^isn't that the defrocked priest who kept getting arrested for trying to disrupt sporting events?

Defrocked?

At least he's wearing a mini skirt now.

[Riquende]

Oh I've just seen that Francois on the telly going on about how his  dad won the war and how he is made of the same stuff and will repel the EU foe.

I was reading about him actually, as to be honest he doesn't look old enough to have a dad who fought at D-Day. There's a 10 year old interview where he talks about it. His dad was in the navy, and after the war met Mark's (Italian immigrant) mother. It doesn't say how old his dad was, but he died when Mark was still young so it doesn't seem he knew him that well. He said then that he grew up obsessed with WW2, building Airfix kits and the like.

So clearly poor Mark has some unresolved issues around his father, the war and possibly Germans in general.

[leroy]

-So people voted to leave the EU, but the politicians in charge had no real plan if that happened? I mean, this talk of "soft" and "hard" Brexit seems to indicate that even the Leavers couldn't agree.

I saw someone post a bit in here yesterday that there is an educational session being organised for MPs (including ministers I think it said) about the customs union!  Mate never doubt that the overriding priority for any politician is how any given situation can benefit them - everything else is a secondary consideration.  I know there are a handful where this may not apply but we must assume it does until proven otherwise beyond doubt.

I mean think about that.  The referendum was nearly 3 years ago right?  And it was known to be happening a year before that?  So something that should be fundamental knowledge for any member of parliament and after four years of this shit they still need educating on it?

Hah!  The entire thing was a political maneuver to begin with that they wanted to fail - so there was no need for a plan. Gambling with the future of tens of millions with no regard at all.

[TepidT2O]

The lighting on newsnight was unfortunate but somehow apt.

[Iska]

- So people voted to leave the EU, but the politicians in charge had no real plan if that happened?

I mean it sounds stupid when you put it like that, but one of the things that whole fiasco has brought to the surface for me is just how much our culture values acting like you’re 100% certain of everything, no matter how ridiculous it might be to do so:

- the government made no plans for Leave winning
- the government opposed asking the ECJ whether revocation is possible
- the government still will not contemplate any other outcome but May’s Deal passing

The thing is they’re not even wrong to do so.  Doubt is weakness, and weakness is death.  I might not think so, but the culture will not allow it.

Is it like this in other places?  It seems to be so in the US, but hopefully other countries have found a way to get by that isn’t a perpetual rolling confidence trick.

[Ray K]

So it looks like Grieve's No Confidence vote was organised and led by a 'former' Kipper who rejoined the Beaconsfield association.
So basically the Tory loons have learned well from the Labour loons on how to purge their party of the moderates.


I do laugh at my sister, who moved house last year and has gone from having Dominic Grieve as her MP to having Dominic Raab. What a downgrade that is.

[John C]

why  is the BBC broadcasting the speeches of pro-Leave headbangers like Peter Bone, Tim Martin, and Nigel Frottage when it did not extend the same courtesy to the PeoplesVote speakers on Saturday? shocking. So much for not being biased in your coverage

Yep, I'm not convinced about the BBC bias accusations but that really pissed me off yesterday.

[Zeb]

If anyone's unsure about the difference between a free trade agreement, a customs union, and the single market, trade law prof (and red) Sylvia de Mars' book has you covered from p.28 onwards in her book on Brexit and NI. Free (legitimately!) pdf version here: http://www.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=http://www.oapen.org/document/1000392

Spoiler

[close]

[killer-heels]

If anyone's unsure about the difference between a free trade agreement, a customs union, and the single market, trade law prof (and red) Sylvia de Mars' book has you covered from p.28 onwards in her book on Brexit and NI. Free (legitimately!) pdf version here: http://www.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=http://www.oapen.org/document/1000392

Spoiler

[close]

So according to that diagram a free trade arrangement would be better for British producers than a customs union, in that it discourages the importing of products from outside to sell on?

[rob1966]

I was reading about him actually, as to be honest he doesn't look old enough to have a dad who fought at D-Day. There's a 10 year old interview where he talks about it. His dad was in the navy, and after the war met Mark's (Italian immigrant) mother. It doesn't say how old his dad was, but he died when Mark was still young so it doesn't seem he knew him that well. He said then that he grew up obsessed with WW2, building Airfix kits and the like.

So clearly poor Mark has some unresolved issues around his father, the war and possibly Germans in general.

He was born in 1965, I was 41 when I had my first son, so his Dad was probably late teen/early 20's when he served on the minesweeper.

He must hate his Ma seeing as she is the enemy.

[24/7]

The lighting on newsnight was unfortunate but somehow apt.

That is fucking fantastic, thanks I always say in coaching that there is no such thing as coincidence.....!

[andy07]

I was reading about him actually, as to be honest he doesn't look old enough to have a dad who fought at D-Day. There's a 10 year old interview where he talks about it. His dad was in the navy, and after the war met Mark's (Italian immigrant) mother. It doesn't say how old his dad was, but he died when Mark was still young so it doesn't seem he knew him that well. He said then that he grew up obsessed with WW2, building Airfix kits and the like.

So clearly poor Mark has some unresolved issues around his father, the war and possibly Germans in general.

He probably is old enough, similar age to me and my dad was at D-Day.   Similarities end there.  What he doesn’t seem to grasp is the likes of my father fought against exactly the type of regime that Francois personifies.   My dad was incredibly pro European as were many who fought through the Second World War.   Unfortunately we are let down badly by the majority of generations born between 1935 and 1970. 

[Dr. Beaker]

That is fucking fantastic, thanks I always say in coaching that there is no such thing as coincidence.....!

I spotted that at the time and pointed it out to Mrs. Beaker. He got an absolute arse kicking off Maitlis too.

[killer-heels]

Francois bigs up his own military credentials but as someone pointed out on TV, he was in the TA for a bit.

[24/7]

Francois bigs up his own military credentials but as someone pointed out on TV, he was in the TA for a bit.

[24/7]

I spotted that at the time and pointed it out to Mrs. Beaker. He got an absolute arse kicking off Maitlis too.

Is there any video of that for us ex-pats to view?

[Zeb]

So according to that diagram a free trade arrangement would be better for British producers than a customs union, in that it discourages the importing of products from outside to sell on?

Only to the extent they neither import nor export themselves.

[killer-heels]

Is there any video of that for us ex-pats to view?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8dM-lxTgQ6U

[killer-heels]

Only to the extent they neither import nor export themselves.

So for example I am a food producer here in Britain and if I have a free trade deal with the EU then I can sell onto them with no tarrifs. But if I import stuff from another nation outside that bloc to sell on then i am hit with tarrifs?

[24/7]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8dM-lxTgQ6U

[TepidT2O]

It’s ironic isn’t it?

Time after time, the ERG, Johnson et al told us that we hold alll the power and that the EU would cave in at the last minute.

And what actually happened? The ERG types and Johnson backed down, they caved in, they were the ones who bowed to the power of the EU.

I’m pretty sure that the rest will now back down and that enough labour MPs will back it and Mays deal will pass.
How will they get it to parliament? Who knows. But I think it will pass now.

[The Gulleysucker]

His Dad appears to have been born in 1925 so would have been 19 around the time of D Day so it's certainly very possible though his precise role appears to be currently obscure.

According to the digging that went on here, there is no record of him in the RN but there does seem to have been a man of the same name in the Royal Pioneer Corps from 45-48 who served in Palestine.

Now members of the Pioneer Corps would certainly have been present at D Day attached to various units, though exactly why one would have been posted to a RN minesweeper, if it is the same man, is open to conjecture, but stranger things have happened in the chaos of war.

I see no reason to doubt that his Dad served in the armed forces at that time and for that alone his Dad should be respected, though I think perhaps there's been a slight embellishment of what he actually did occuring over the years when telling his son tales.

(All a bit like that Harry character who died the other year being somehow referred to as an RAF pilot by a lot of people when he wasn't air crew at all but ground crew.)

[24/7]

It’s ironic isn’t it?

Time after time, the ERG, Johnson et al told us that we hold alll the power and that the EU would cave in at the last minute.

And what actually happened? The ERG types and Johnson backed down, they caved in, they were the ones who bowed to the power of the EU.

I’m pretty sure that the rest will now back down and that enough labour MPs will back it and Mays deal will pass.
How will they get it to parliament? Who knows. But I think it will pass now.

Good point about caving - but can you see the DUP backing down? They are the ones holding what is, after all, a coalition government together. With Parliament still in control, the house of cards could still collapse. Nothing here is certain.

[Zeb]

So for example I am a food producer here in Britain and if I have a free trade deal with the EU then I can sell onto them with no tarrifs. But if I import stuff from another nation outside that bloc to sell on then i am hit with tarrifs?

Right. But if you're a manufacturer with a supply chain spanning several countries then you're not moving all of that to Britain, you're in a tighter spot.

Just asked Sylvia de Mars your original question. Here's her reply:

"Good question to which there isn't a one fits all answer: it depends on what the supply chain for any given product looks like, eg if products are part-composed with non-EU stuff. If so, producers in UK would run into rules of origin issues when sending things on to EU etc.

You can be a wholly British producer of a final product that still needs eg steel from outside of the EU to be made. Rules of Origin then might mean that that product is not classed as "British" for EU import purposes and is charged import duties anyway. So: depends on sector!"

[TepidT2O]

Good point about caving - but can you see the DUP backing down? They are the ones holding what is, after all, a coalition government together. With Parliament still in control, the house of cards could still collapse. Nothing here is certain.

If they get the rest of the nutters to follow Rees Mogg then I don’t think it matters.

Enough labour MPs will back it to make it pass.

Some of the people who voted for it last time were furious when it didn’t pass ‘disgusted with themselves for backing it.  But they backed it once, they’ll back it again.

These are people who said that this deal was worse than staying in the EU of course. Seemingly not the case now.

And the deal itself? 2021?  Laughable. It will take a decade to sort out future arrangements.

[24/7]

Enough labour MPs will back it to make it pass.

Sadly I think you're right there - and when that happens, I really hope that's the end of Labour as we currently know it. It's fucking depressing to see the state of British politics right now - but no surprise. Everything needs to change - but it won't. And we'll be paying the price for this for decades to come.........

.........maybe though when things have settled, in a couple of generations' time, the kids of the future will study this time period and manage to learn the lessons. Once they've stopped laughing hysterically and shaking their heads in disbelief of course.

Oh and they'll probably be wearing scuba gear, or learning in buildings on stilts

[Riquende]

I see no reason to doubt that his Dad served in the armed forces at that time and for that alone his Dad should be respected, though I think perhaps there's been a slight embellishment of what he actually did occuring over the years when telling his son tales.

Oh I don't disbelieve him, I just assumed his dad must have been older when he was born and wanted to find out a little more. I was more remarking on how Mark's childhood has shaped his views today, he clearly has a very romantic view of his dad as a hero that, due to his passing, has never faded.

I don't have any direct family stories to draw on, but I too was very interested in the war as a kid, made Airfix planes, visited museums, so on. I've grown up with a conviction that such a time must never be allowed to happen again, a healthy disgust for populism and a respect for institutions that try to bridge peoples of the world.

[gamble]

Yesterday wasn’t half as bad as it could have been and yet it was enough to turn my stomach.

This country is going to hell.

And there will be winners from this, the rich will gain far more from it than the actual dumbasses who voted for it. Let alone the dumb asses paying Tommy Robinson £50 a month.