Topic: Marvel Musings. Now with Spidey Spoilers.

[AndyMuller]

Think I will wait for Black Panther 2 to come to Disney+, 2 hours 40 mins long I haven't got the bladder control for that anymore.

Reviews seem decent enough like but it was always going to be hard and it does sound like Shuri is the new BP.

[Ultimate Bromance]

Saw Wakanda Forever today, spoilers galore below;

Spoiler

That Marvel logo opening sets the tone almost immediately; complete silence, and all images of Chadwick's BP. There's flashbacks of him a few times throughout the movie, really sincere and respectful. So glad they didn't try and have a CGI version of him to 'pass the torch'.

Angela Bassett is an absolute powerhouse from start to finish, might deserve a nomination, perfect mix of strength and vulnerability balancing the powerful queen / grieving mother role. Was stunned they killed her, kinda just assumed after Chadwick / T'Challa's passing they'd keep everyone else around, but nope, really caught me off guard.

Really happy they didn't kill Namor, the actor is brilliant; so interested to see this guy lead future movies, he had fantastic charisma. Wild how he sorta gets what he wants in the end. Kills the Queen, keeps his people's existence a secret, forms an alliance of sorts with Wakanda, and gets to put the whole 'fuck the surface, let's kill em all' plan on the back-burner until the world comes for Wakanda. Would have liked to have seen more of Talocan, seemed really interesting and well-thought out, wasn't just Atlantis with a Mexican paint job or something shallow (hur hur). The culture, the city, the people, the weapons, that siren song, how they bonded with the animals, Namor's feathers; just would have liked a bit more explanations other than 'vibranium plant made all this possible'.

I'd be completely fine with Shuri being the next BP if not for the real world shenanigans of the actress, which is kinda unfair. Just really hard to separate the actress and the character with her. Which is a real shame because she has a really interesting journey throughout the movie; grieving for her brother, grappling with the whole tech vs tradition thing, desiring revenge then turning away from it, for a second I thought her and Namor were going to kill each other and the rest of the BP movies would have the Wakanda vs Talocan cold war be a permanent thing going forward.

Also would have preferred Riri Williams be introduced in another movie because there was so much going on already here, but I'm looking forward to seeing more of her character, just didn't have much to do after her invention acts as a catalyst for the main conflict.

Perfect use of Michael B. Jordan, man had a point in the first movie, had a point in the sequel too.



All in all I'd say it's a solid 8. Fantastic love-letter and goodbye to Chadwick Boseman and his T'Challa. Probably the most well-balanced Marvel movie in a while; almost entirely quip-free, good balance of action and drama. 2h30m+ and it never really drags. Fantastic use of music too. Also that mid-credits scene got me a bit teary.

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[Barefoot Doctor]

Black Panther:

Spoiler

Mixed feelings on it. For the most part,it’s a very un-Marvel film and that’s a good thing. There’s a sense of grief throughout, although I’m not sure the film does enough to earn it, instead relying on Boseman’s real life tragic death to spur those feelings in us. Although the Marvel intro using only footage of Boseman was devastating.

For me, it felt like there was something lacking. Could easily have shaved 20/30 minutes off and been more impactful. But I’ll respect any Marvel film that ends on the main character finally giving into grief and crying over a loss.

Really enjoyed Namor and Talokan, great performance from Tenoch Huerta and something very different than we’ve seen from previous Marvel villains.

Focusing on Shuri was the right decision IMO, even if I’m no fan of the actress’ views. Feel like they built in some flexibility around the future of Black Panther I’d they want to change the suit holder.

Bassett steals the show, an absolute powerhouse in it, particularly that scene where she tears down Okoye.

To its credit, very little of the traditional Marvel setups for future movies. And an actual meaningful mid credits scene, although I feel they could have ended the film on that note rather than putting it during the credits.

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[AndyMuller]

I enjoyed it, thought Shuri was really good but it could have shaved off a good 30-40 minutes.

Namor was boss.

[Kashinoda]

Thought it was pretty boring and messy.

Really solid opening but a bit messy and uninsteresting thereafter, like a solid 6/10. Angela Bassett and Tenoch Huerta largely carry the rest.

Spoiler

Shuri's transition into being Black Panther didn't feel earned or make any sense whatsoever. Coupled with her real life shenanagains makes it a hard buy in for me

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[coolbyrne]

As others have pointed out, Angela Bassett is a force of nature in this movie. Especially

Spoiler

when she strips Okoye of her rank. Both actresses in that scene were breathtaking.

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I don't slam DC movies (let people like what they like), but

Spoiler

Ramonda's death

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and

Spoiler

Okoye being stripped of her rank

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are two examples of why DC is struggling to find the kind of success Marvel has. They haven't done enough since Man of Steel (2013) to make me feel the same way those two moments I spoilered did. DC hasn't laid that kind of foundation for enough characters for me to care the same way. It will be a slow build, but maybe James Gunn will be the guy to do it.

[AndyMuller]

Speaking of DC, why was there so much slow motion in BP 2? Felt like Snyder was at the helm at times.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Thought it was pretty boring and messy.

Really solid opening but a bit messy and uninsteresting thereafter, like a solid 6/10. Angela Bassett and Tenoch Huerta largely carry the rest.

Spoiler

Shuri's transition into being Black Panther didn't feel earned or make any sense whatsoever. Coupled with her real life shenanagains makes it a hard buy in for me

[close]

Completely agree. They went in the wrong direction with that

[Barefoot Doctor]

Spoiler

I found it strange that they didn’t have Shuri deliberate over whether she should be Black Panther or not. I thought it would have been in character for her to try to get Mbaku or Nakia to do it, and for them to convince her that she is the best person for it. Instead, there’s no question about who’ll take the mantle. Although I wondered if Mbaku taking the throne was intended to leave the option open for him to be Black Panther going forward. Equally, the introduction of the son gives themselves the ability to have a T’Challa as BP down the line.

[close]

[John_P]

Spoiler

I think at that point for Shuri it's not about taking the mantle to be the protector of Wakanda it's so she is powerful enough to kill Namor for vengeance. Hence why when she takes the herb she sees Killmonger not her mother.

I mean her plan seems to be kill Namor which would then likely trigger an eternal war between Wakanda and Talocan.

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[El Lobo]

Watched it last night, thought it was good. I’m fully expecting Sandra Bullock as Wolverine though

[stewil007]

Thought BP2 was pretty dull overall.  To me, it was just a bit all over the place, with a few bits tacked on for no real added value

5/10

[killer-heels]

Thought BP2 was pretty dull overall.  To me, it was just a bit all over the place, with a few bits tacked on for no real added value

5/10

Agree that it was a bit all over the place. Probably would give it a 6/10 and thought it was ok but not something I’ll be watching again.

Still, Killmonger looked well fine.

[Drinks Sangria]

Thought it was pretty boring and messy.

Really solid opening but a bit messy and uninsteresting thereafter, like a solid 6/10. Angela Bassett and Tenoch Huerta largely carry the rest.

Spoiler

Shuri's transition into being Black Panther didn't feel earned or make any sense whatsoever. Coupled with her real life shenanagains makes it a hard buy in for me

[close]

Sums up my thoughts though I’m even harsher I think.

Spoiler

Forgetting the actor’s horrid opinions and missteps for a moment, it’s still a poor decision to have her as the Black Panther. She was a great supporting cast member in the original and the extended universe, but lacks the gravitas and character development to be the Black Panther. It did not feel right and it did not in any way feel earned. I was hoping for some multiverse contrivance to get Killmonger in the suit.

I could have lived with M’Baku as Black Panther. That suit would be doing some work, he thicc.

The two minutes with him in the film was the best bit about the whole mess. Way too long, relied on real life tragedy to pull at the heart strings and some nonsensical decision making by some of the key players made this hard to watch at times. Really disappointed. Soundtrack was great and some lovely visuals but this was a bloated mess.

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[El Lobo]

Spoiler

It all happened very quickly as well, about ten minutes from deciding she was going to be Black Panther herself to the whole of Wakanda accepting it. It would have made a lot more sense for her to discover that she could recreate the heart-shaped herb but then maybe make herself a suit which wasn't Black Panther, and then spend a few years considering their next move.

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[Armand9]

The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special

i hate xmas, i hate xmas tv, haven't watched it in literally decades

now i dont know what exactly i was expecting (maybe last year's hawkeye level of xmas in it? which was doable for me) but i couldnt get to 20 mins, had to turn it off

that utter garbage was on par with the finale of she-hulk, the worse thing marvel has ever put out there by a stretch too

maybe it gets good in the end  i'll never know and that's fine by me

[wampa1]

Spoiler

It all happened very quickly as well, about ten minutes from deciding she was going to be Black Panther herself to the whole of Wakanda accepting it. It would have made a lot more sense for her to discover that she could recreate the heart-shaped herb but then maybe make herself a suit which wasn't Black Panther, and then spend a few years considering their next move.

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Spoiler

I think it would have been better had she used the same herb she was going to try at beginning, maybe having kept hold of it, and then when it works you have the drama of her knowing it would have worked to have saved T'Challa but then also being the thing that saves everyone.

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As for GOTG Holiday Special, it's harmless fluff and is totally skippable (bar one character moment).

[gazzalfc]

5 Years ago since this trailer landed

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/00DZ2jiSFP4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/00DZ2jiSFP4</a>

Seems a little insignificant now but back in 2017 the thought of everyone being there and just how incredible that entire trailer was. 

[lionel_messias]

5 Years ago since this trailer landed

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/00DZ2jiSFP4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/00DZ2jiSFP4</a>

Seems a little insignificant now but back in 2017 the thought of everyone being there and just how incredible that entire trailer was. 

Fab trailer for what was probably the best blockbuster sequel since Terminator 2.

[El Lobo]

They really did knock it out of the park with the first three phases.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

I watched a video on You Tube last night where some insider has seen the plans for 27 new projects due for release before the end of 2025 between cinema and Disney Plus. I don't think that included the ones already slated for release.

They are going to kill it, aren't they? A lot of people are already losing interest.

[tubby]

It's tricky, they might as well milk it for as long as they can, but I think the combination of Covid, Boseman and the culmination of that huge arc with Thanos at the end and popular characters disappearing has made it less of a sure fire thing now.

I haven't been interested in seeing any of the films in the cinema since Endgame, but I'll still watch them when they pop up on streaming services (for free).

[AndyMuller]

5 Years ago since this trailer landed

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/00DZ2jiSFP4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/00DZ2jiSFP4</a>

Seems a little insignificant now but back in 2017 the thought of everyone being there and just how incredible that entire trailer was.

This was peak MCU.

I hope Kang can surpass Thanos but I doubt it.

[El Lobo]

This was peak MCU.

I hope Kang can surpass Thanos but I doubt it.

It'll be interesting to see if he can see off Ironwoman, Spidergirl, Lady Thor, Baroness America, She-Hulk, Black Pantheress, Black Widow, Lady Hawkeye and Groot.

[Nobby Reserve]

It's tricky, they might as well milk it for as long as they can, but I think the combination of Covid, Boseman and the culmination of that huge arc with Thanos at the end and popular characters disappearing has made it less of a sure fire thing now.

I haven't been interested in seeing any of the films in the cinema since Endgame, but I'll still watch them when they pop up on streaming services (for free).

Post-Infinity, we've been to the cinema to watch:

Spiderman: Far From Home
Black Widow
Spiderman: No Way Home
Dr Strange and the Multiverse of Madness

Even though we've got Disney+, not bothered with Thor: Love & Thunder, Ms Marvel or She Hulk.

Like Musky says, losing a fair bit of interest - not least as they killed off two of my fave chracters in Iron Man and Black Widow, and have ruined Wanda (that's 3 of my fave 4, with Rocket being the other). Most of the remaining ones are all a bit 'meh'.

[AndyMuller]

It'll be interesting to see if he can see off Ironwoman, Spidergirl, Lady Thor, Baroness America, She-Hulk, Black Pantheress, Black Widow, Lady Hawkeye and Groot.

 

Hate to break it to ye Lobo but Black Widow died a while ago.

[killer-heels]

Fab trailer for what was probably the best blockbuster sequel since Terminator 2.

That was the trailer for the first one wasnt it? Thought End game hasnt aged well, but Infinity War is still great.

[ScouserAtHeart]

The only hope they have of getting back to close to what it was is if they do a damn good job with integrating the X-Men and Fantastic Four.

None of the characters they've focused on since Endgame (with Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, and Wanda being honourable exceptions) have really made me care about what happens to them.

[ScouserAtHeart]

That was the trailer for the first one wasnt it? Thought End game hasnt aged well, but Infinity War is still great.

Infinity War is probably the better movie, but the crowd reactions to "on your left" in Endgame were just insane

[tubby]

Yeah I agree that Infinity War is definitely the better movie, but Endgame was pure fan service and had some really iconic moments.  It was everything a comic book final battle should be.

[Nobby Reserve]

The only hope they have of getting back to close to what it was is if they do a damn good job with integrating the X-Men and Fantastic Four.

None of the characters they've focused on since Endgame (with Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, and Wanda being honourable exceptions) have really made me care about what happens to them.

I did love Moon Knight.

Hoping Guardians reinvigorates it all.

[Agent99]

Infinity War is probably the better movie, but the crowd reactions to "on your left" in Endgame were just insane

UK cinemas are usually pretty quiet but the reaction to this scene was something else.

Spoiler

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[Musketeer Gripweed]

I did love Moon Knight.

Hoping Guardians reinvigorates it all.

I really enjoyed Moon Knight as well, didn't see the character in any of the new projects though, so I have no idea when we will see him again.

Given the amount of characters that have been introduced recently and the huge characters that are due to arrive soon, the ensemble movies from here on out will be interesting.  And rather expensive for salaries.

As someone said, its hard to get invested in so many characters and the beauty of the early movies was the interaction and humour between all the big players. That has somewhat faded now.

[Nobby Reserve]

As someone said, its hard to get invested in so many characters and the beauty of the early movies was the interaction and humour between all the big players. That has somewhat faded now.

It also evolve seemingly organically. I first watched Iron Man when it came on the telly - and that was by chance. I really enjoyed it, and caught another couple when they were on the telly - the only one I set out to watch was Captain America, because part had been filmed right next to where I used to park at the time in Manchester and I'd taken my daughters to watch it being filmed one day, as well as part filmed in Liverpool.

So I gradually became a fan of the MCU (even though I don't remember it being referred to as the MCU till much later along the line), although I'd seen none at the pictures and watched then pretty scattergunny.

It was lockdown when my eldest asked if we could watch all of them together in sequence (with our youngest) and that's when we all got proper into the MCU.

But back to my point. It seemed a natural build-up as the Avengers characters were introduced gradually, with the way they were brought together done pretty well.

This next over-arching phase is laid out for everyone to see so feels contrived. There's also going to be some aspects that contradict other/previous strands of the MCU or don't feel canon (presume the multiverse is going to be the cheatcode way to gloss over any of that).



 

[El Lobo]

The problem though is that there's only so much traction you can get out of certain characters. We've had three Ironman, three Captain America, three Thor, two Hulk and fucking loads of Spiderman movies. Considering how often characters get bumped off in comics it makes sense that it happens in movies as well, and I dare say in the future we'll see Ironman, Cap etc bought back. But in the meantime you've also got to bring other characters in. The issue is that without the X-Men and the Fantastic Four...there aren't any real big hitters. They've made it very hard for themselves by doing such a good job with the original cast (Cap, Ironman, Thor, Hulk, Hawkeye and Black Widow).

[Stockholm Syndrome]

In a way I think the success of the weirdo films like GotG, Ant-Man, Dr Strange and to a degree Black Panther - the characters that aren't big hitters but become them with the MCU.

It doesn't help that everything seems to have molded into the MCU style - need to break up monologues with a Wheadon Quip, the Action is the usual switch your brain off MCU action, the structure is all very superhero movie.

The "weirdo" movies all had a different feel - GotG was a Star Wars style space adventure, Ant-Man was like a heist movie, Black Panther was a superhero movie tackling actual for real points about colonialism and the black experience.

Personally I would also include Shang Chi as a "weirdo" film done well with a different feel (a westernized version of old Hong Kong cinema Kung Fu movies) but that's mainly because I really enjoyed it.

Spiderman has always felt good because it can do the big superhero movie fine, because he is a big hitter. Every movie had also felt significant in some way. But the smaller know franchises are suffering from the sameness. If even Thor's last movie can be affected by this, of course the others will be as well. Take Moon Knight, which I really enjoyed, except for the Marvel time stuff - Oscar Isaacs playing two characters and being a split personality was interesting but not the MCU stuff.

Also there is just too much stuff that mostly doesn't matter - the TV series are supposedly just as important, but so much stuff gets churned out on Disney+ and most is loser characters or really really bad stuff (see Falcon and the Winter Soldier or She-Hulk)

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Like at this point the main things I am hanging out for are X-Men, and the villains of Fantastic Four (Doom, Galactus, Silver Surfer) I'm not even bothered by the Four themselves but I fucking love Doom

Black Panther 2 I think is also the first time I heard the word "Mutant" said in the MCU which feels significant.

[tubby]

I fucking love Doom

Yup.  If they finally get it right, he's an absolutely amazing character who can be hero or villain, depending on the situation.  But they've absolutely fucked it every single time they've tried to put him on the big screen.

[AndyMuller]

The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special

i hate xmas, i hate xmas tv, haven't watched it in literally decades

now i dont know what exactly i was expecting (maybe last year's hawkeye level of xmas in it? which was doable for me) but i couldnt get to 20 mins, had to turn it off

that utter garbage was on par with the finale of she-hulk, the worse thing marvel has ever put out there by a stretch too

maybe it gets good in the end  i'll never know and that's fine by me

Watched this last night, it was shite.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Yup.  If they finally get it right, he's an absolutely amazing character who can be hero or villain, depending on the situation.  But they've absolutely fucked it every single time they've tried to put him on the big screen.

 He is the smartest person in the world (with Reed Richards) and has the greatest force of will. A sorcerer supreme from his own effort, brilliant inventor, and someone who understands the cosmos better than anyone else

He has everything to be the greatest human on the planet, but he is a villain. Regal, arrogant, but undeniably brilliant - he wants to rule the world, he believes everyone would be better ruled by him, and he might not actually be wrong in some respects.

I always see doom as someone (to use MCU ideas) who is worthy enough to lift up Thor's hammer, but a villain.

I hope they have enough weirder aspects now accepted to really go full in with proper Doom (not electric dude or standard evil Russian), without introducing the bad stuff (quips mainly). In fact I hope he instantly snaps a dudes neck for joking about in his presence.

Doom and Magneto are top tier for me with villains, except Doom has never made a good transition to Film, where as Magneto has been universally good imho

Speaking of Magneto, I am sad that Red Skull is no more as the interaction between Magneto and Red Skull in the comics is absolutely incredible, and exactly how you would expect Magneto to react meeting a high level unrepentant Nazi.