Topic: Javier Mascherano

[cj]

To be fair, I never said he does it "consistently". But he is capabale of it when it's required, or when he undertakes it. To say it's few and far between is a tad discrediting IMO. I think alot of people use Xabi as the benchmark when evaluating someone elses passing ability, which is kind of unfair considering he's ridiculously good at it.

I mean, I consider Carra pretty good in the air under high balls, but just because he's nowhere near as good as Hyypia was shouldn't detract from Carra's own ability. If you know what I'm getting at?

Would agree with that. His long-range passing is nowhere near as poor as some people would have you believe. In my eyes he is a much more all round midfielder than some give him credit for. And he is also directly responsible for much of our attacking play.

While I've done this before and never feel comfortable referring people to any news corp site, here are the latest opta sportsdata update on sky: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_2705370,00.html

[RedRaj]

I've said the same thing myself many times, & couldn't agree with you more.

The sad thing is, our players did once show that kind of determination, especially when we were bumming teams for fun from February to May, namely Madrid, Man Utd and Villa. I see Masch as the reminense of the fire that once was, and just hope his refusal to quit can reignite the rest of the squad

Agree to an extent but he was mostly shite (just like virtually everyone else) for the first few months of this season wasn't he? In his defence it might have been the airmiles he was clocking up with Argentina.  He seems rejuvenated since the campaign is over.

[RedRaj]

Would agree with that. His long-range passing is nowhere near as poor as some people would have you believe. In my eyes he is a much more all round midfielder than some give him credit for. And he is also directly responsible for much of our attacking play.

While I've done this before and never feel comfortable referring people to any news corp site, here are the latest opta sportsdata update on sky: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_2705370,00.html

That was interesting reading.  Sad to see Masch almost alongside that piece of shit who calls himself a footballer Mr Kevin Davies. 
Lucas and Masch are both high in the tackles and passing stats.  However, we have so little incisive passing this season that created goals and chances.  Just mooting this proposition, but don't the stats reveal our greatest strength and weakness this season:  namely a good ability to get the ball of the opposition but mostly we do fuck all with it?

[Billy The Kid]

Agree to an extent but he was mostly shite (just like virtually everyone else) for the first few months of this season wasn't he? In his defence it might have been the airmiles he was clocking up with Argentina.  He seems rejuvenated since the campaign is over.

I wont deny that, he did look a bit indifferent earlier on in the season, but he has burst into life since the Man Utd game at Anfield. He was fucking immense that day and hasn't let us down since in terms of desire and commitment.

He's still relatively new to his role as Argentinian captain. Being handed the armband of a country that has such high expectations of their football team is a big undertaking. And when you consider the fact that it was his countries biggest ever footballing icon who bestowed the honour upon him, just before they came precariously close to failing to reach the World Cup, then it's easy to see why he might have felt a little strained with pressure. I think that strain and stress was evident in him even whe he was playing in Red, up until Argentina finally qualified. But he's come through it, its another notch on his belt so to speak

[Zelnaga]

Whats with the attack on Masch? Hes been one of our best players this season though that aint saying much, but hes probably showed the most commitment and passion, and havent really put a foot wrong bar the red car against pompey. Gerrard has been anonymous this season, I dont see people calling him to be dropped.

[cj]

That was interesting reading.  Sad to see Masch almost alongside that piece of shit who calls himself a footballer Mr Kevin Davies. 
Lucas and Masch are both high in the tackles and passing stats.  However, we have so little incisive passing this season that created goals and chances.  Just mooting this proposition, but don't the stats reveal our greatest strength and weakness this season:  namely a good ability to get the ball of the opposition but mostly we do fuck all with it?

I would say that is fairly spot on from what I've seen. We've certainly managed to get the ball up in the oppositions half on more than a few occasions, but then failed to take proper advantage. Feels very reminiscent of periods past frankly. But if one would go looking for positives trough this media invented so called crisis, hopefully it can help shake most loose apples of the tree.

[Billy The Kid]

Whats with the attack on Masch? Hes been one of our best players this season though that aint saying much, but hes probably showed the most commitment and passion, and havent really put a foot wrong bar the red car against pompey. Gerrard has been anonymous this season, I dont see people calling him to be dropped.

This is the modern day fanbase unfortunatley, no player is safe from ridicule from the whopperish element of the so called supporters. Even Gerrard isn't excluded, have a scroll down the main board, he's on the chopping board too. 7 odd pages of a thread on why the captain should be sold. Sad innit?

[WhoseLeftFoot?]

Masch is a fuckin diamond.

Fucking end of.

Can't even believe there's a debate about it.

[cj]

This is the modern day fanbase unfortunatley, no player is safe from ridicule from the whopperish element of the so called supporters. Even Gerrard isn't excluded, have a scroll down the main board, he's on the chopping board too. 7 odd pages of a thread on why the captain should be sold. Sad innit?

What do you mean sad? I pay good money to see these millionaires in action. F*ck their feelings they get paid enough, hence they should act like robots. I paid for my ticket so therefore I get to say whatever I want at the match, irregardless of whether you approve of it or not!

[cj]

Masch is a fuckin diamond.

Fucking end of.

Can't even believe there's a debate about it.

Agree with every word said there. But didn't you hear? He's on his way to Barcelona

[MagicB8all]

Masch is a fuckin diamond.

Fucking end of.

Can't even believe there's a debate about it.

A diamond he may be, but currently THIS 'Diamond' is in the wrong setting !!

Mash is a great player,but far more limited than you make out

[Zelnaga]

A diamond he may be, but currently THIS 'Diamond' is in the wrong setting !!

Mash is a great player,but far more limited than you make out

He seemed outstanding last year, and to be honest, he hasnt really put a foot wrong bar that red car. Either its Rafas fault for not finding a sutiable replacement for Alonso who when both played together were outstanding, or Lucas for not fitting into Rafas system, after all Rafa evidently prefers the 4 2 3 1 formation, and Lucas pairing with Masch isnt working.

[xerxes1]

Mash is a great player,but far more limited than you make out

Mindful of his status as a double league title winner in Brazil and Argentina, an Olympic Gold Medal winner and the most capped player for his age in the history of Argentian football, if he is "limited", God help the rest of our squad.

[MagicB8all]

He seemed outstanding last year, and to be honest, he hasnt really put a foot wrong bar that red car. Either its Rafas fault for not finding a sutiable replacement for Alonso who when both played together were outstanding, or Lucas for not fitting into Rafas system, after all Rafa evidently prefers the 4 2 3 1 formation, and Lucas pairing with Masch isnt working.

Mindful of his status as a double league title winner in Brazil and Argentina, an Olympic Gold Medal winner and the most capped player for his age in the history of Argentian football, if he is "limited", God help the rest of our squad.

Mash is world class at being the DM and breaking down attacks, where he's limited is in setting up attacks. I'm not criticizing Mash just pointing out that our midfield needs someone to balance Mash's ability and leave him free to do what he does best.

[cj]

A diamond he may be, but currently THIS 'Diamond' is in the wrong setting !!

Mash is a great player,but far more limited than you make out

Why is he limited then mate? Doesn't score enough goals? I think we've already established that his passing has certainly been able to sustain a lot of scrutiny so far this season. My argument is that he is actually much less limited to one role than what people give him credit for. Can you counter that with proper honest arguments or are you one of the "buhu we lost alonso and nothing will ever be the same" types?

[xerxes1]

Mash is world class at being the DM and breaking down attacks, where he's limited is in setting up attacks. I'm not criticizing Mash just pointing out that our midfield needs someone to balance Mash's ability and leave him free to do what he does best.

And that is Rafa's job.

[MagicB8all]

Why is he limited then mate? Doesn't score enough goals? I think we've already established that his passing has certainly been able to sustain a lot of scrutiny so far this season. My argument is that he is actually much less limited to one role than what people give him credit for. Can you counter that with proper honest arguments or are you one of the "buhu we lost alonso and nothing will ever be the same" types?

You misunderstand! or are being swayed by the argument of others
1 I rate Mash,
2 While I do feel sad we've lost Alonso  I don't denigrate Mash
3 Just pointing out the Mash's passing Range and ability to connect the defense with the attack is not as good as Alonso's - that's hardly saying he's crap ( sheez)
4  I'm saying that Mash needs someone playing along with him that gives him the freedom to play his A game. I don't think that's Lucas or Gerrard

[MagicB8all]

And that is Rafa's job.

Eggers !

[cj]

You misunderstand! or are being swayed by the argument of others
1 I rate Mash,
2 While I do feel sad we've lost Alonso  I don't denigrate Mash
3 Just pointing out the Mash's passing Range and ability to connect the defense with the attack is not as good as Alonso's - that's hardly saying he's crap ( sheez)
4  I'm saying that Mash needs someone playing along with him that gives him the freedom to play his A game. I don't think that's Lucas or Gerrard

Ok then mate apologies, thats fair enough. I probably misunderstood you. I'm sorry if I misrepresented you in any way. I still disagree about his recent passing escapades though.

[WhoseLeftFoot?]

A diamond he may be, but currently THIS 'Diamond' is in the wrong setting !!

Mash is a great player,but far more limited than you make out

All I'm saying is that he's very good at what he does.

Not a bad passer either.

Shit shot.

I'd rather have him on my team than on the oppositions team.

Apart from the shit shot... 

[Pheeny]

I'd gladly sacrifice him for a more positive game plan at home any day.Sometimes we are to negative when he's on the pitch. 

[Franck Le Poof]

I'd gladly sacrifice him for a more positive game plan at home any day.Sometimes we are to negative when he's on the pitch. 

Come on Pheeny, surely you see why he's a necessity for a 'positive game plan' at home?

With the team knowing he's sitting back the likes of Johnson, Insua, Lucas, and Gerrard can bomb forward without worrying about getting caught on the break. It's that kind of backup that is essential for us - especially now that we have Johnson and Insua as attacking fullbacks, rather than the considerably more cautious Arbeloa and Aurelio combination. Without him we run the risk of getting caught on the counter-attack.

[MagicB8all]

All I'm saying is that he's very good at what he does.

Not a bad passer either.

Shit shot.

I'd rather have him on my team than on the oppositions team.

Apart from the shit shot... 

And we agree on that -  Just seems to me this team has a number of specialists who are good/very good but lacks the grease or the cog to connect them all

[cj]

I'd gladly sacrifice him for a more positive game plan at home any day.Sometimes we are to negative when he's on the pitch. 

Had a couple right now so I'm finding it hard to determine whether you are serious or not. Belgians manage to export their chocolate but their most influential beers are sold on license, for anyone to make. Regardless, I'm maintaining that Mascherano is one of our most positive players, along with pepe.

[Trousers]

Come on Pheeny, surely you see why he's a necessity for a 'positive game plan' at home?

With the team knowing he's sitting back the likes of Johnson, Insua, Lucas, and Gerrard can bomb forward without worrying about getting caught on the break. It's that kind of backup that is essential for us - especially now that we have Johnson and Insua as attacking fullbacks, rather than the considerably more cautious Arbeloa and Aurelio combination. Without him we run the risk of getting caught on the counter-attack.

Yes but now countered by the fact that Rafa's wing positions are determined by how little exposure he affords the full back.

Especially on the left. If Rafa believes Insua is good enough then fine play him, if not pick Aurelio. Don't pick your wingers based on how much protection they can offer the full back, which he has been guilty of this season. It's the only reason for Dirk's continued run on the right, and for Aurelio and Dossena at the weekend on the left.

[Billy The Kid]

I'd gladly sacrifice him for a more positive game plan at home any day.Sometimes we are to negative when he's on the pitch. 

What is it about him that hinders us from having an attacking game plan? I don't really get your point there.

And what exactly does he do that makes us look so negative?

I see many people levelling similar accusations at him, but they are rarely explained.

I'm just curious to know why you think that, if you would care to elaborate. All in the interest of a decent debate of course

[ConorYNWA]

I'd keep him just for his ability to close down a whole team once we've cleared a corner. Awesome player.

[Elzar]

When we attack, he gives the reassurance that if the opposition launch a counter attack, he will be there to cover.

Thats what he adds to our attack

[Zelnaga]

I'd gladly sacrifice him for a more positive game plan at home any day.Sometimes we are to negative when he's on the pitch. 

Its Rafas tactic to employ Lucas and Masch in central defence, thats the negativity about it, the tactics. When Masch and Alonso paired with each other last season, there were no shouts with the team playing negatively. Personally Id rather sacrifice Lucas, because as much as I think hes a 'decent' player, hes shining because the team is doing awful at the moment.

[Franck Le Poof]

Its Rafas tactic to employ Lucas and Masch in central defence, thats the negativity about it, the tactics. When Masch and Alonso paired with each other last season, there were no shouts with the team playing negatively. Personally Id rather sacrifice Lucas, because as much as I think hes a 'decent' player, hes shining because the team is doing awful at the moment.

So drop one of the only players performing up to scratch, is that it?

Some don't like to look at statistics as they don't always paint the full picture but one thing is absolute this season, Lucas and Mascherano have been up there with the best passers and tacklers in the league. And not because of the extremely off the mark myth that they only make sideways or backwards passes, but rather because they have consistently won back possession for us and kept us moving even when at our most laboured.

People need to stop looking for problems where there currently aren't any. When the likes of Kuyt, Torres, Gerrard, and Benayoun repeatedly lose possession in the final third and keep having pressure piled upon our defence and centre-midfield, perhaps it is they who should be criticised rather than the relatively faultless centre-midfield pairing we currently have.

[Zelnaga]

So drop one of the only players performing up to scratch, is that it?

Some don't like to look at statistics as they don't always paint the full picture but one thing is absolute this season, Lucas and Mascherano have been up there with the best passers and tacklers in the league. And not because of the extremely off the mark myth that they only make sideways or backwards passes, but rather because they have consistently won back possession for us and kept us moving.

People need to stop looking for problems where there currently aren't any. When the likes of Kuyt, Torres, Gerrard, and Benayoun repeatedly lose possession in the final third and keep having pressure piled upon our defence and centre-midfield, perhaps it is they who should be criticised rather than the relatively faultless centre-midfield pairing we currently have.

This is only to answer Pheeny comments, of dropping Masch for the fact that we play 'negatively'. IF we had to drop one or the other than Id drop Lucas, I wasnt implying we drop him indefinatly, though thats a whole new story with the Aquilani situation, of where he would fit in.

[kkhaku]

I think Pheeny was being sarcy lads.

One player's style of play doesn't make the difference between 'negative' and 'positive' tactics over the course of a match.

[Nick110581]

World class in a limited way.

Shit attitude this season.

Tackle on Saturday was fucking cowardly.

[JimmyGrunt]

World class in a limited way.

Shit attitude this season.

Tackle on Saturday was fucking cowardly.

Are you fucking kidding?

[John C]

I'd gladly sacrifice him for a more positive game plan at home any day.Sometimes we are to negative when he's on the pitch. 

But I think his presence can allow, and give confidence to just about anyone, including the full backs, to bomb forward knowing he is on patrol behind and that his energy can thwart any counter attack. It's negative when he's within touching distance of Lucas constantly so I think the shape or other personnel need looking at.

[John C]

Come on Pheeny, surely you see why he's a necessity for a 'positive game plan' at home?

With the team knowing he's sitting back the likes of Johnson, Insua, Lucas, and Gerrard can bomb forward without worrying about getting caught on the break. It's that kind of backup that is essential for us - especially now that we have Johnson and Insua as attacking fullbacks, rather than the considerably more cautious Arbeloa and Aurelio combination. Without him we run the risk of getting caught on the counter-attack.

beat me to it mate, serves me right going to bed early.

[Chivasino]

World class in a limited way.

Shit attitude this season.

Tackle on Saturday was fucking cowardly.

Certainly for the first two months he had a shocking start. He has certainly picked it up over the last 6 or so weeks and been one of our better players, and it actulally looks like he gives a shit.

[DazLFC5]

there was fuckall in that tackle ...he barely caught the lad

[No666]

Masch's vote in the Fifa poll was 1] Essien 2] Gerrard 3] Henry.

Henry?

[DazLFC5]

he must hate the irish