Author Topic: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding  (Read 23636 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« on: September 1, 2005, 01:22:44 pm »
The reaction of many Liverpool fans on Wednesday 31st August confirmed my worst fears: expectations have been raised to unrealistic heights after Istanbul. Some of the moaning has been lacking all form of realism.

Frustration is understandable, but abuse of Rafa, Parry, Moores and co. seems extreme to say the least. Especially in ignorance at what's gone on behind the scenes.

Now I've started writing for the official LFC website I've been attempting to take a few weeks' rest (to which I'll hopefully return), but the events of this week were too much for me to ignore. I'm under no obligation to toe the club line on anything, for their site or this. But I do feel the need to stand up for common sense.

I'd like to have seen more quality arrive, but I'm also satisfied that the squad has been sufficiently improved, and I'm also not forgetting the return of players who were missing for large chunks of last season, and who can give us a cutting edge: Gerrard, Alonso, Cissé, Kewell, Morientes and Sinama-Pongolle. Add those to the team who finished 5th (if they are fit and in form), and you have the potential for 20 more points.

Had we bought those five this summer, everyone would be saying we could win everything in sight. Some have yet to fire, but the talent is there. In spades.


Champions of Europe

How did becoming European Champions change things? Would Rafa's job have been any different had the Reds stumbled against Chelsea, or not revived against AC Milan?

Wasn't the rebuilding task always going to be the same?

Winning the Champions League has raised the cachet of the club; but it's also added millions to the value of any player we've pursued. While the coffers are fairly full, the money the club possesses does not come remotely close to matching the riches of Chelsea. Trying to do so could result in a Leeds United scenario; over-stretch, and die.

Two key areas weren't strengthened; but other areas were. We need to assess the squad as it now stands, not how it might otherwise have been. As well as first team players, a whole raft of promising youngsters have arrived; Rafa's job is long-term, and that must not be forgotten after the European success of last season.

The defence has conceded very few goals this season, and none in the league. Juventus and Chelsea could only breach it once in four Champions League games  at the end of last season (and that goal should have been dealt with by the promising Carson). Add the hugely impressive Reina, who starred in La Liga last season, in place of the erratic Dudek and creaking Kirkland, and you already have more reliability.

The defence isn't perfect, and while cover was desired there's enough there for Rafa to work with for the time being. Anyone who thinks Sami Hyypia has lost his pace needs to watch some old videos: he never had any in the first place. Meanwhile, Carra has emerged as a real star, and Finnan an extremely solid right back. Josemi appears more comfortable at centre-half, and he can easily provide cover.

The lack of a right winger is more of a worry, but the Reds did everything to secure one: most notably let down by FIFA's absurd ranking system, whereby Gonzales' Chile were ranked beneath some of the worst teams in existence (teams who only play other meaningless teams). Figo was a close call, but opted for the glamourous life of Milan. Benfica asked too much for Simao.

But it's also a position where Luis Garcia can flourish, cutting inside on his left foot in the way Pires plays for Arsenal (opposite side, cutting in on his right foot). He won't hit the byline with pace to cross, which is a worry, but cutting inside will allow Finnan to bomb forward, and Finnan's attacking game (and crossing) is better than we've seen thus far.

Sinama-Pongolle is another whose pace, close control and trickery can prove useful on the right, and while at times Cissé appears lost there, he looks explosive and dangerous at others. It's alien to him, but he can learn. There's enough versatility in the squad to make the most of things, and let's not forget that Steven Gerrard can be the best in the world in that position, if Rafa can spare him from his central berth for a few games until January. (More likely now we have such quality in the heart of the midfield.)


Taking Stock

The squad as it stands today is what counts. Say the summer had been quiet, and Sissoko, Reina, Zenden and Crouch all arrived this week? What if Morientes was signed now, and not in January? –– wouldn't everyone be far happier, even though the squad would be exactly the same as it now is?

The squad that won the Champions League has been improved. That's right: the squad that won the Champions League. So far this season the Reds have a credible away draw and a home victory, with no goals conceded. Six games were successfully navigated on the way to the group stage of the Champions League. Hardly cause for despair.

You'd think we were Newcastle, in the relegation zone having played twice as many games, and out of Europe.

Gone from Anfield are a number of under-achievers and talented but erratic players, and in have come a collection of players who have to be given time, and the benefit of the doubt, but who will surely offer more in the long term.

Rafa has offloaded the players he didn't feel fitted into his style of play, and bought ones who might not be glamourous (such as Crouch) but who offer a better balance to the team. Let's also not forget how much better we would have been in the league last season had the side not been beset by injuries, especially those to Alonso, Gerrard and Cissé.

You may disagree, but Rafa has also bought three players who I believe will be in his strongest XI. While there will be rotation (it's his way), injuries, and a number of permutations exploited, there will also probably be an XI (4-5-1 formation) that features more often than others.

And this is how I see it: GK Reina, RB Finnan, CB Hyypia, CB Carragher, LB Traore (or Warnock, or Riise –– toss a coin on that one) –– LW Kewell, CM Alonso, CM Sissoko, Attacking CM Gerrard, RW Luis Garcia –– CF Crouch.

Hamann, Cissé, Zenden, Morientes, Pongolle and one or two others will all play a lot of games, but if everyone is fit, that looks like the team Rafa will opt for.


A sensible approach

I've read comments like: "It was just a few million extra for Simao, why didn't we just pay it?" (Perhaps I should be looking to sell copies of "Golden Past, Red Future" to these people for an extra £5, just to see if they are as casual with their own money?)

What if I told you that season ticket prices are going up by £200, after a price had been agreed? After all, that's the percentage extra (33%) that Benfica were looking for. You cannot be held to ransom. The same applied to Real Madrid's valuation of Michael Owen. The players who have arrived were bought at the right price, and that's the only way to work.

Zenden's arrival was trumpeted by many as a canny piece of business after his excellent season at Boro; a couple of anonymous displays, and he's written off as a waste of space. That's daft.

Say Sissoko turns out to be the next Vieira, as looks possible? Vieira was rated at £30m not so long ago. The 'glamour' surrounding Sissoko at the moment isn't there; in twelve months, he could be talked about as the brightest young player around. Vieira signed for Arsenal from AC Milan reserves; Wenger knew his true potential, but I doubt many Gooners did. It took time to make it look a great bit of business.

Say Reina turns out to be the next Schmeichel? After all, when Schmeichel arrived he was a mere nobody. Again, only hindsight can tell.

It's all Ifs, Buts and Maybes, but so what? Unless we sign players for £30m, what else will we get? If you sign unbridled potential, you either get them at the right age and the right price, or you pay £20m+. Rafa has had to catch them before they've fully blossomed; the same concept as signing Shaun Wright-Phillips in 2002, rather than 2005.

"People are laughing at us," I've been told.

Let them.

Invite them to have a look around our trophy room. Twenty-thousand turned up at St James' Park to see Newcastle parade their latest trophy player, and a fine one they've acquired. Liverpool, as a club, prefer to parade trophies: such as when 500,000 turned up to see the European Cup weave its way through the streets (it didn't need Owen's help either, did it?). It didn't need any 'superstar' signings last year to achieve that. Just very good players.

Call me insane, but I'd much rather have our hierarchy (responsible for six trophies in four years, plus two European Super Cups) than Newcastle's. Despite spending a comparable amount of money to the Reds, they live in Dreamland.

Listen to Freddie Shepherd: "Alan Shearer reminded Michael Owen he had this same decision a decade ago when he left Blackburn and could have gone to Manchester United. He chose Newcastle and look what it's done for him."

So that would be watch on as United won six league titles, a handful of FA Cups and the Champions League, while Newcastle won, um, err, sweet FA? I have nothing against Newcastle as such, but let's not be jealous of them. That's insane!

Newcastle have Michael Owen, but Liverpool have a manager who's achieved more in the last two years than any other.

©Paul Tomkins 2005

Book news update: the second edition of "Golden Past, Red Future" is selling extremely quickly, and there is currently an offer of free postage when ordering from www.paultomkins.com.

The book has also been labelled 'core stock' by Waterstones, which means the main 50 branches will all be stocking the book, and the others have the choice to. For an independent title, this is a great achievement, as it's not at all straightforward in doing so. We're chuffed about this.

I'd just like to end by thanking the Westport Supporters' Club, for inviting myself and my co-author over to the west of Ireland for their 10th anniversary bash, which included a large-screen viewing of the Super Cup final –– a great time was had by all, even the drunk at the bar who shouted "prick!" at Luis Garcia every time he got the ball. We met some of the friendliest people on earth, and would like to thank them all.



« Last Edit: September 1, 2005, 01:25:00 pm by Paul Tomkins »

Offline Tom_B

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #1 on: September 1, 2005, 01:27:14 pm »
Great read Paul, even though I don't agree with all of it, at the end of the day this is the squad we have now, so lets on with supporting the team.
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Offline Captain-Carra

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #2 on: September 1, 2005, 01:35:11 pm »
The voice of reason has returned.

Always enjoy these threads but the past 2 or 3 days have been disturbing.

The only time to judge is at the end of the season. People are upset that we didn't sign Siamo, judging him as a good player before he has kicked a ball for Liverpool. What if he had turned out to be not as good as he has been in the Portugese league? Then people would have been upset at the massive transfer outlay. A la Diouf, Diao, Cheyrou, etc, etc.

The only time to judge the transfer dealings is after the season. How many people would have judged last season as a success in February, yet what did people think after the 26th May?
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Offline beardsley4ever

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #3 on: September 1, 2005, 01:36:55 pm »
"I've read comments like: "It was just a few million extra for Simao, why didn't we just pay it?" (Perhaps I should be looking to sell copies of "Golden Past, Red Future" to these people for an extra £5, just to see if they are as casual with their own money?)

What if I told you that season ticket prices are going up by £200, after a price had been agreed? After all, that's the percentage extra (33%) that Benfica were looking for. You cannot be held to ransom. The same applied to Real Madrid's valuation of Michael Owen. The players who have arrived were bought at the right price, and that's the only way to work."


I fail to see the logic on this one, Paul.  A couple extra million for the club is 3% of the clubs annual budget (give or take), and that's ignoring that it isn't cash spent, it's cash invested (i.e. you have an asset on the balance sheet which may appreciate or depreciate in value).  So your logic on why we should haven't spent an extra couple of million to get the player we wanted doesn't hold.  Before people start banging on about Chelsea and Leeds and blah blah, there is a balance that can be drawn, and spending a couple of extra million to fill a position that we so obviously desperately need filled doesn't seem like bad business to me.

If I needed a drink of water, and you wanted to charge me £1 for it even though I know that you only bought it for 70p, then I'll still pay it because the alternative is going thirsty and that'll cost me more than the 30p I'm saving.  Or something like that.

Offline scottishRED

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #4 on: September 1, 2005, 01:36:58 pm »
Sensible rational stuff as usual Paul. And a great read.

There are already lots of similar posts on the site (KarlB's for example) but I hope your "standing" might be able to sway some of the doom and gloom brigade even more than proportionate comments from elsewhere.

I think the only thing I'd add to your piece is that it's time to get right behind the player's we've got instead of moaning about their inadequacies, or the lack of X, Y or Z in the squad.

As you say, the squad that won the CL (the CL dammit!) has been strengthened. We are a bloody good team. But, like any team, our players need the support of the fans, and not the loud sniping of a disaffected minority, who are having a go, despite the league season only being two games old (from which two acceptable results were obtained!).

At this stage of the season, if you haven't got anything positive to say, then please don't say it at all - or at least don't say it so loudly or try to dominate the site with threads on doom and gloom.

This is a time to look foward and get firmly behind the team we all want to do well - because that's the only way we can help our boys towards success.

Come on rafa. Come on redmen. We believe in you.

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Offline Tweedy

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #5 on: September 1, 2005, 01:37:29 pm »
I couldn't agree more as usual. Judgements are being born too early, especially after what is perceived as a bad week in the transfer market. Sure other clubs may have got their men, but if they're prepared to pay over the odds, that's their business and secondly the men they have bought would barely be worthy of a run out in our reserves.

The main thing is that the deadwood has been cleared off the books a position that can be built on. We have players who are adaptable and can be used to cover in emergencies. Rafa has had little time to experiement due to most of our games being must wins, but when he has there are glimpses of optimism in build up play and in overall performances. A slow start in putting the ball in the back of the net (in two league games anyway) is only masking the positives that there have been on the pitch to date.
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Offline redpanic

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #6 on: September 1, 2005, 01:37:42 pm »
knob off to the official site and stop writing such rational shit ;)

rafa out 8)

Offline NickoH

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #7 on: September 1, 2005, 01:37:51 pm »
Fucking spot on Paul..........some sense at last

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Offline beardsley4ever

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #8 on: September 1, 2005, 01:42:07 pm »

"There are already lots of similar posts on the site (KarlB's for example) but I hope your "standing" might be able to sway some of the doom and gloom brigade even more than proportionate comments from elsewhere."



Why is it wrong to be frustrated by our failure to sign a RW or a CB?  SOme people seem to be suggesting that we should have already forgotten about it all.  Yes, of course everyone is behind the squad we've got - no one would argue with that.  But the frustration is there, and it's justified - fuk, even PArry and Rafa are obviously frustrated / pissed off with what's happened!!! 


Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #9 on: September 1, 2005, 01:42:40 pm »
Beardo - I know what you mean. But someone's salary might mean that the hike in season ticket price was the same percentage of their disposable income. That's not my point.

My point was that if you have set a fee, adding an extra 33% changes the deal significantly. Even if you can afford it, it doesn't mean it makes good sense.

£3-4m for a club is still a lot of money. It's 10-20% of our transfer budget this summer. Also, if we overspend on players then the fans end up paying for it.

If Simao was worth £14m to the Reds, we'd have paid it.

Offline scottishRED

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #10 on: September 1, 2005, 01:45:13 pm »
"I've read comments like: "It was just a few million extra for Simao, why didn't we just pay it?" (Perhaps I should be looking to sell copies of "Golden Past, Red Future" to these people for an extra £5, just to see if they are as casual with their own money?)

What if I told you that season ticket prices are going up by £200, after a price had been agreed? After all, that's the percentage extra (33%) that Benfica were looking for. You cannot be held to ransom. The same applied to Real Madrid's valuation of Michael Owen. The players who have arrived were bought at the right price, and that's the only way to work."


I fail to see the logic on this one, Paul.  A couple extra million for the club is 3% of the clubs annual budget (give or take), and that's ignoring that it isn't cash spent, it's cash invested (i.e. you have an asset on the balance sheet which may appreciate or depreciate in value).  So your logic on why we should haven't spent an extra couple of million to get the player we wanted doesn't hold.  Before people start banging on about Chelsea and Leeds and blah blah, there is a balance that can be drawn, and spending a couple of extra million to fill a position that we so obviously desperately need filled doesn't seem like bad business to me.

If I needed a drink of water, and you wanted to charge me £1 for it even though I know that you only bought it for 70p, then I'll still pay it because the alternative is going thirsty and that'll cost me more than the 30p I'm saving.  Or something like that.

okay so maybe paul's example wasn't quite equivalent, but you can surely see what he was getting at!

firstly, refusing to be ripped off sets a tone. it shows all teams that we will not be fucked about with transfer dealings. look at chelsea - everyone knows they can be ripped off, so they are - mercilessly. we cannot afford for such an impression to surround our transfer dealings.

secondly, rafa knows exactly how much money he has in total and how many players he needs to sign - whether that be in january, or next summer. how do you know that upping simao's price wouldn't have buggered up other dealings in e.g. january?

thirdly, rafa knows exactly how much he values simao at. perhaps he thought £10m was a bit over the odds. it's up to rafa whether £13m was too much or not.

fourthly, if you pay too much for someone (i.e. a sum disproportionate with their ability) it will put too much pressure on them to perform. the fans would have expected instant greatness from simao, and rafa and he would both have come in for severe cricitism had it not been delivered.

fifthly, if you want to get really picky about examples, your drink of water example doesn't fit either. because we are not "dying of thirst" on the right-wing. we have people who can do a job there, like luis garcia, gerrard and possibly FSP.
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Offline gramck24

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #11 on: September 1, 2005, 01:46:07 pm »
Have to agree with the majority you have said there Paul. Whilst nobody is happy regarding the lack of signings i do not believe that Rafa, Rick Parry and Mr. Moores deserved any of the abuse/garbage that was spouted on here yesterday.

Anybody would think that the 3 of them are magicians (albeit Rafa could be describe as one after May 25th) and pull off any signing at any time. These guys cannot force players to come to the club nor force the clubs to sell there players on the cheap... i have heard a few fans say 'well why did we not fork out that extra £2million, I'm sure we can afford that'.

Peter Risdale and Leeds United are living proof of a club who tried living beyond there means. I'm sure the Leeds fans would like to be our position in terms of trophies one over the last few years and the way the club is run.

I for one am glad that we have not been held to the footballing equivalent of Dick Turpin. The likes of Madrid and Befice can find some other mugs to splash £16million on players (ooohh, was that a dig).

I think we should all forget about the transfer window now and get behind the players we have got like we always do!

Offline GingerRed

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #12 on: September 1, 2005, 01:46:22 pm »
we have people who can do a job there, like luis garcia, gerrard and possibly FSP.

Do you think that having somebody 'doing a job' will win the league?
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Offline gibber_blot

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #13 on: September 1, 2005, 01:46:27 pm »
A couple extra million for the club is 3% of the clubs annual budget (give or take), and that's ignoring that it isn't cash spent, it's cash invested (i.e. you have an asset on the balance sheet which may appreciate or depreciate in value).

Exactly, and Rafa didn't believe that the extra couple of million was worth the investment.

Offline Kanonkop

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #14 on: September 1, 2005, 01:46:49 pm »
I agree 100% but I suspect the doom and gloomers will need to see a couple of 3-0 victories I suspect to rekindle their early summer optimism.

Okay so we are missign an out and out right winger.  The way some people are going on you would think that the only way to create goal scoring chances is via inch perfect crosses from the right byline. 

Had Gerrard had his shooting boots on against Middlesborough we would have won 5-0 and that was without a right winger.

Against an ultra defensive CSKA we totally controlled the match and again created several chances - without a right winger.  Didn't convert enough but that's hardly down to the lack of a right winger.

Ditto many many games last season.

What we need to improve on last season wasn't to get a dedicated right winger in (it would have helped of course - that is beyond debate) but to improve on our poor away form.  That has nothing to do with a right winger and everything to do with the team spirit, confidence, motivation of the 11 players who take the field.  Undoubtedly we have replaced those with a weak mental frame of mind with stronger more durable stuff this summer.

Our squad is therefore better than last year and we will perform better.  I have no doubt about this and remain as confident as ever.


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Offline mercury

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #15 on: September 1, 2005, 01:47:36 pm »
Worked up, mate?  Can't blame you. 

above average transfer season for me for the fact that we have couple of months to get at least one of the RM / CB but could not.  Otherwise fine with me.  More than happy with the youngsters and trimming the deadwood.  but most of all a great relief to see the silly season ends and can look forward to some football.  The best guage of "transfers", at the end of the day, is on the pitch.

Perhaps I should be looking to sell copies of "Golden Past, Red Future" to these people for an extra £5, just to see if they are as casual with their own money?

hehehe too modest you are  ;) ;D

Offline Spartacus.

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #16 on: September 1, 2005, 01:47:56 pm »
Why is it wrong to be frustrated by our failure to sign a RW or a CB?  SOme people seem to be suggesting that we should have already forgotten about it all.  Yes, of course everyone is behind the squad we've got - no one would argue with that.  But the frustration is there, and it's justified - fuk, even PArry and Rafa are obviously frustrated / pissed off with what's happened!!! 



Spot on.

I’m very disappointed but then so is Rafa, of course we’ll pick ourselves up and get on with it, we have no choice.

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Offline Captain-Carra

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #17 on: September 1, 2005, 01:48:33 pm »
It's fine looking at the "highlights" of a player - like many did when Simao was touted as a signing - and instantly deciding that he would be a good addition.

What seems clear is that Rafa and Parry and Moores all decided on a price they would be willing to pay. Not saying that they would get the player at any cost. That is good business sense. Then when more was asked all 3 of them would have agreed to turn down the player.

Speaking to a few Benfica supporters who are friends of mine, they were amazed that we would be willing to pay £10 million for him.
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Offline Tom_B

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #18 on: September 1, 2005, 01:50:45 pm »

Speaking to a few Benfica supporters who are friends of mine, they were amazed that we would be willing to pay £10 million for him.

Well you should have checked out their message board then, cos most of their fans were outraged at letting him go for any price.

Anyway, it doesn't matter who we missed out on anymore, we just need to support what we have.
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Offline scottishRED

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #19 on: September 1, 2005, 01:51:12 pm »
"There are already lots of similar posts on the site (KarlB's for example) but I hope your "standing" might be able to sway some of the doom and gloom brigade even more than proportionate comments from elsewhere."



Why is it wrong to be frustrated by our failure to sign a RW or a CB?  SOme people seem to be suggesting that we should have already forgotten about it all.  Yes, of course everyone is behind the squad we've got - no one would argue with that.  But the frustration is there, and it's justified - fuk, even PArry and Rafa are obviously frustrated / pissed off with what's happened!!! 



of course, i agree its disappointing.

but what i was getting at is that some of the posts i have read seem to think that our failure to make these signings has completely buggered everything up, that we now have no chance of winning the trophies we really want and that parry in particular, but also rafa to some extent, are to blame.

this is the "doom and gloom" i refer to, and it is an entirely predictable reaction (you come to expect irrationality from many if you hang around on these sites for long enough) but that doesn't make it any less wrong. as many people have said, you need to wait until at least christmas to be able to truly assess a summer's work in the transfer market. and there's also january, when we can try to strengthen again.

i just think it's irrational and wrong to get too upset about things right now.

of course it's disappointing, but to let that dominate your feelings too much? i don't agree with that at all.
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Offline beardsley4ever

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #20 on: September 1, 2005, 01:51:34 pm »
fourthly, if you pay too much for someone (i.e. a sum disproportionate with their ability) it will put too much pressure on them to perform. the fans would have expected instant greatness from simao, and rafa and he would both have come in for severe cricitism had it not been delivered.



That's an excellent point, and one that I haven't seen made previously.  It has drastically swayed my opinion.  Now I'm just fuming.  :)

(sarcasm aside, it was a very good point, scottish)

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #21 on: September 1, 2005, 01:52:39 pm »
Great stuff as usual Paul.

I agree with most of it and certainly agree that much of the knee-jerk vitriol flying round here over the last 24 hours has been ridiculous. However, I think that the club do have some questions to answer.

You mention that the CL win has unrealistically raised expectations, which is undoubtedly true, yet the club are also guilty of raising our expectations and then dashing them. All through the summer we have been hearing the mantra of how our priorities are a classy right winger and cover at centre back. In the end we got neither, no wonder we are disappointed.

Additionally, we managed to fail to re-sign a player who was very keen to join us and in the process of doing so managed to upset a key member of our existing squad. Clearly this last week has not been one that the manager or board will want to look back on with any pride.

I have every faith in our manager, indeed his position atop ol' big ears is pretty much unimpeachable but last night I kept coming back to that old table and lamp story from his days at Valencia. If the sporting director at Valencia was responsible for all the transfers and kept buying players that Rafa did not want, then by extension surely Rafa must have limited experience in the transfer market?
So although we know he is a great tactician and manager we don't have evidence of a proven track record of spotting players and buying them cheaply.

Kev
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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #22 on: September 1, 2005, 01:54:50 pm »
well thats fine an dandy then!!.....one question though, Rafa has been saying all summer he wanted a CB and a RM...despite all th questions about Owen that was his mantra.....he hasn't got them.....whatever the reasons.....so our manager says he needs  a CB and a RM .....But! the fans shouldn't be bothered cos although he saw those positions of needing urgent attention a few bods on some websites don't think its anything to be concerned about....


there are lots of players in the squad who can play on RM .....but they are not natural suited or lets be honest  very effective...if they where the manager wouldn't have been looking would he?

and as for getting ripped of by clubs....well I can understand the clubs nervousness after wasting millions on shit over the past few years, but if you turn up trying to buy players at the eleventh hour your creating a sellers market


..
« Last Edit: September 1, 2005, 01:58:54 pm by FlashingBlade »

Offline Captain-Carra

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #23 on: September 1, 2005, 01:55:59 pm »
we don't have evidence of a proven track record of spotting players and buying them cheaply.

Kev

Ok Alonso wasn't cheap at over £10 million but I think he is the best signing in the last 10 years. None of Souness, Evans or Houlliers signings have the ability, class, talent, vision and all round game of Alonso.

Throw in Sissoko, Reina and even Garcia, who although receivin criticism was the player who scored the goals to win us number 5.

Think Rafa has proven his ability in the transfer market.

But we will not be held to ransom and we have to run the club as a business.
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Offline beardsley4ever

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #24 on: September 1, 2005, 01:56:07 pm »
Peter Risdale and Leeds United are living proof of a club who tried living beyond there means. I'm sure the Leeds fans would like to be our position in terms of trophies one over the last few years and the way the club is run.


This retort is too simplistic, and seems to get used a lot.  Spending £2m for FIgo wouldn't have crushed the finances of our club, so our decision not to spend that (or the extra £500k on Solano, or £3m on Simao) can't just be put down to that.  It was a decision that Rafa/Rick made to take the risk on entering the season without that position filled rather than spend that money.  And I think that it's a big risk.

Anyway, it's time to look forward now. 

Offline Kanonkop

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #25 on: September 1, 2005, 01:56:15 pm »
With regards to the Simeao transfer, its not just that they wanted an extra £3m, it's the way that a price had been agreed and then at the last minute they try to stiff us with a price increase.

At that point there is only eon thing you can do to benfica and that is the commercial equivalent of the two fingered salute.

if you accept that sort of behavior once then you will have so many other clubs trying it on also and we would end up paying 33% more for two thirds of our signings.  So not just the £3m once but £10 overspend every year.  Thats a pretty decent signing in its own right.
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Offline BazC

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #26 on: September 1, 2005, 01:56:42 pm »
Agree 100% with that... although I do think Cisse will feature in the first team- maybe in a 4-4-1-1/ 4-4-2 with Crouch.

I can see the plus points in Crouch being the lone striker (not dissimilar to the way Drogba played for Chelsea last season)- but I don't think that would work in this team.

I think having the tallest player in the Prem- alongside the fastest player would be better, I remember a previous article by you, which pointed out just how difficult it would be to defend against that pairing. Too deep and you run the risk of a lanky header, too far up and you give running space to Cisse- something no one wants to do.

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #27 on: September 1, 2005, 01:57:49 pm »
Typically good, sensible piece, Paul.
It's hard enough remembering my opinions without remembering my reasons for them.

Offline mercury

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #28 on: September 1, 2005, 01:59:27 pm »
spot on as well scottish red.

I'm disappointed too cos we have the time and money to make something happens but could not.  But overall, the signings are good at the very least, the players remain are not bad (cough, cough) as Paul pointed out.  The vitirol is beyond belief. 


Offline the good half

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #29 on: September 1, 2005, 02:00:55 pm »
Good read Paul, but a CB is an absolute must. whatever about a RW.
I think Josemi will not survive there. It seems that we are hoping against hope that injuries do not occur. That makes me feel a little uncomfortable.

Offline rudebwoy4life

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #30 on: September 1, 2005, 02:04:05 pm »
"I've read comments like: "It was just a few million extra for Simao, why didn't we just pay it?" (Perhaps I should be looking to sell copies of "Golden Past, Red Future" to these people for an extra £5, just to see if they are as casual with their own money?)

What if I told you that season ticket prices are going up by £200, after a price had been agreed? After all, that's the percentage extra (33%) that Benfica were looking for. You cannot be held to ransom. The same applied to Real Madrid's valuation of Michael Owen. The players who have arrived were bought at the right price, and that's the only way to work".

Same idea I tried to get across to a few moaning fans about a couple of extra millions as they put it.

We agreed a deal in principle and the player was asked to come down for a medical and agree personal terms.
Benfica supporters voiced their discomfort about the sale, same way we voiced out about the probable sale of our captain earlier on.
Benfica board reneged on the agreement and did the only thing possible to scupper the deal which was by asking for more money.

Another scenario then came to mind which was us accepting their asking price only for them to up it again at say 11.45pm thus giving is no time to react, then what?

If anything i think we may have left such a deal too late because looking at the willingness of the player to come down on short notice Rafa must have scouted extensively and sounded him out on the possibility of coming down to Liverpool FC.

I think he might still come in the January window but it is dependent on Benfica's performance in the champion's league.

Benfica's board have acted dishonourably in a world dominated by 'a gentleman's agreement'. I would like to see how they fair in their further dealings as a wise man once said "what goes around comes around"
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #31 on: September 1, 2005, 02:06:37 pm »
Do you think that having somebody 'doing a job' will win the league?


Are we seriously looking to win the league this year, or building towards it in an extra year or two's time?

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #32 on: September 1, 2005, 02:06:53 pm »
Spot on Paul.

I would suggest posting this on the official MB but it would be a waste of time and energy.

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #33 on: September 1, 2005, 02:06:59 pm »
Th
With regards to the Simeao transfer, its not just that they wanted an extra £3m, it's the way that a price had been agreed and then at the last minute they try to stiff us with a price increase.

At that point there is only eon thing you can do to benfica and that is the commercial equivalent of the two fingered salute.

if you accept that sort of behavior once then you will have so many other clubs trying it on also and we would end up paying 33% more for two thirds of our signings.  So not just the £3m once but £10 overspend every year.  Thats a pretty decent signing in its own right.

This is it . . . this is what the issue was with the transfer and I agree with the club taking a stand . . . we are going to be held to ransom by one club, or all others will expect to do the same

Rafa has been very tough in the market something that will help us in the future.

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #34 on: September 1, 2005, 02:07:02 pm »
Sensible rational stuff as usual Paul. And a great read.

There are already lots of similar posts on the site (KarlB's for example) but I hope your "standing" might be able to sway some of the doom and gloom brigade even more than proportionate comments from elsewhere.

I think the only thing I'd add to your piece is that it's time to get right behind the player's we've got instead of moaning about their inadequacies, or the lack of X, Y or Z in the squad.

As you say, the squad that won the CL (the CL dammit!) has been strengthened. We are a bloody good team. But, like any team, our players need the support of the fans, and not the loud sniping of a disaffected minority, who are having a go, despite the league season only being two games old (from which two acceptable results were obtained!).

At this stage of the season, if you haven't got anything positive to say, then please don't say it at all - or at least don't say it so loudly or try to dominate the site with threads on doom and gloom.

This is a time to look foward and get firmly behind the team we all want to do well - because that's the only way we can help our boys towards success.

Come on rafa. Come on redmen. We believe in you.

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You mention KarlB's post and I thought it was excellent too.  My humble response follows, to contribute to the sentiments expressed here:

"Great post, for the content and for the fact that it provoked, at least initially, some great, positive, thinking replies. (I find it is always useful to go back and respond to the initial post because people become a bit too reactive as it goes on.)

With due respect to many of our wonderful online community and without for a second questioning their desire for the club to do well, many people can fail to see the wood for the trees, especially if the trees are popping up at a rate of knots, as they tend to during the transfer window.  Having said that, the transfer window has been a bit of a disappointment for LFC.  But I digress.

I think what your post and the good responses show is that we have a lot of options, possibilities.  That was what it was all about for Rafa, including the RW, but with the single exception of the missing CB.  Sami and Carra need cover and quality cover at that.  The heart of the defence is not an area we can be fucking around with - the lack of a RW can be dealt with by playing with a different formation or using someone like Kewell or Flo out there but the lack of a quality CB (if one of the two current stalwarts were missing) is the only thing that may keep me up at night.  Zak is shaping up well and Josemi may turn out to be the mutts's nuts but those are big ifs, capable of becoming gigantic buts.

Otherwise, as you and others have said, we have a good, potentially excellent team with some current and some potential world class players.  As you say also, I like the underdog/dark horse role and I get the feeling that the adversity that the club has faced with the Gerrard saga, the Owen episode, the failure to get the big name signings and the general shite that gets written about us in the press will serve to bind the lads together.  They also know now what they did not this time last season - that playing for each other can lead to big (ears) things.

Many of them have a lot to prove and seem to be up for it as well - Cisse for example is going to have a blinder, if you ask me, provided he is allowed to be part of a 4-4-2. Flo on the right wing - exciting prospect.  Sissoko is not going to be taken lightly by anyone.  even Harry, if he stays injury free, will kill to show that he can do for us what he did for Leeds.

So chin very much up, pride completely intact and lets make everyone show us the respect every week that we should command anyway, being, in case anyone needed reminding, the small matter of the flippin Champions of Europe.

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #35 on: September 1, 2005, 02:08:43 pm »
Captain-Carra,

Agreed wholeheartedly as regards Alonso and I hope to soon be able to add Reina, Sissoko et al to the list - but it's still too early to call it a "proven track record" surely.
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Offline nige

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #36 on: September 1, 2005, 02:09:12 pm »
Far too early  to say whether any of this summer's signings individually, or more importantly as part of the unit, will  be 'successful', though I like what I've seen on the whole and have seen enough in  Sissoko to hope &  dream that he becomes what  I always, over-optimistically as it turned out,  hoped  Diao would.

But Rafa thinks they are what we need and that's good enough for me for now. Above all they all clearly WANT TO PLAY FOR LIVERPOOL.

It was very pleasing to read in the last couple of days about how much Simao, Navarro & Michael Owen for that matter apparently  seemed to wanted  to play for US  despite the prohibitive financial issues or other more 'political' misgivings of their clubs. And  as for Gonzalez, well how frustrating can it get ... The Gonzalez situation along with memories of Nuñez's early injury makes me think that even if Simao had signed  something really unfortunate could have then happened to him the next day in training anyhow .....

Then there were possibilities  like the canny, experienced Solano, where the phrase 'personal terms' seems to me to indicate that he didn't  want to play for LIVERPOOL FC quite enough, was just after one last payday & wasn't that arsed about  the chance to blow his horn  on  Merseyside.

Denis Law & Jackie Charlton didn't want to blow their horns at Anfield either ; Ian St. John and Ron Yeats did. The rest is  history.

And yes, our  other 'new signings' ..... hopefully a full season of  Gerrard, Alonso, Cisse  & Pongolle.....

......and if Kewell & Morientes can get back to  Premiership sharpness, and why not ( let's be optimistic & encouraging), now those really would be DREAM signings ....

see also
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=84280.msg1345315#msg1345315
 ;)
« Last Edit: September 2, 2005, 03:11:07 pm by nige »

Offline Robbo1980

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #37 on: September 1, 2005, 02:11:32 pm »
Superb stuff paul.

One of the most annoying and in my opinion down right wrong things i have seen is the "our squad is weaker than last season" argument.

The players who have left are:
Baros (although he did contribute last season, he was too inconsistent, and we could afford to get rid of a striker as more often than not we will be playing 1 upfront and with Crouch, Mori, Cisse and Pongolle we are still well acquiped in that area)
Nunez (had fleeting moments were he put in a decent cross but his all round level wasnt even close to being good enough at this level or in this league).
Pellegrino (had 1 or 2 decent games last season but cost us goals and points and is too far past his best)
Kirkland (spent far to long on the injured list, also i recall people wanting him dropped after conceding a few bad goals, has a chance to re establish himself at WBA, he's still our player and an asset if only financially).
Diouf, Cheyrou, Medjani, Diara, Vignal (played no part at all last season so can not be considered as part of last seasons squad.
Smicer (injured for over half the season and did very little, apart freom the obvious, for the team last season or season before)
Welsh, Partridge, Otsemebor (All young players who have never made the break through to the 1st team)
Le Tallec (lets be honest, the so called gem has never delivered, his attitude has benn called into question more than once, never played any significant part last season apart from against Juve, has a lot to prove, hopefully he can fdo that at sunderland).
Biscan (had his best season by far but lets be fair he was more of a comical icon than a great player, he played well flettingly in europe, but his overall form since he joined the club was not good enough for an expensive purchas)

Thats all the players who have left and out of them i would say only, baros, Nunez, Pellegrino, Kirkland, Smicer and Biscan wre considered part of last seasons squad, out of them, Kirkland, Smicer missed over half the season through injury, Pellegrino was only here for half a season, Nunez was also out injured.
So out of the players who really contributed to last season we have lost Biscan and baros. Thats 2 players.

We have replaced these with

Reina (Best keeper in spain according to rafa, i trust his opinion, has started well, give it a month and he will probably played more games than kirkland did in years).

Zenden (arrives as Boro's best player admittedly playing a more central role, offers differant options, indifferant start)

Sissoko (if this lad had cost 20 million everyone woulda been raving about how he is gona be a star, has already done more in the league than biscan, i dont think many can argue he appears to have much more ability and hunger than Igor ever did).

Crouch (scored more goals from open play than andy johnson last year yet a lot of people would have prefered the crystal palace player, why?, Crouch almost kept a very poor southampton team up last year with his goals and anybody who witnessed the difficulty he gave our defenders last year will be willing to give him a chance, dont under-estimate him because of how he looks, although i hope a few teams do, will do a good job for the team).

Thats 4 players in who are ready to play 1st team football and be part of our squad, compared to arguably 2 out.
Lets not forget the emergance of potter and whitbread, who although still very raw, can fill in when required, potter for me has more ability than Nunez although may not be as naturally right sided. Whitbread is a far better option than Pellegrino turned out to be.

Also cisse is like a new signing this year.

Rafa has also strengthened the reserves with captures of some coverted youngsters in Barragan, Hobbs Etc....


Anyway great read paul





« Last Edit: September 1, 2005, 02:14:00 pm by Robbo1980 »

Offline GingerRed

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #38 on: September 1, 2005, 02:12:41 pm »

Are we seriously looking to win the league this year, or building towards it in an extra year or two's time?

We should be aiming to win the league every single season. Realistically though, we are probably a couple of years away from mounting a serious challenge. One of the reasons for this is that in certain areas of the pitch, we just don't have the requisite quality, and instead we have to make do with players 'doing a job'...
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Offline Sheep1977

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Re: A Successful Summer's Rebuilding
« Reply #39 on: September 1, 2005, 02:13:05 pm »

Are we seriously looking to win the league this year, or building towards it in an extra year or two's time?

At the risk of appearing controversial that is almost exactly the same response Rafa shot Gerrard down for after suggesting we had no realistic chance of winning the champions league.

We might as well become a mid table team if we are not aiming to win the league every season. 

We have the best two central midfielders in the league.
A superb goalkeeper
Two world class defenders
World class attacking talent - Morientes, Cisse, Kewell

A great spine to have. We need to be going for it this season. That I feel is why fans are so bitterly disappointed that we have not managed to put together the strong squad around this spine. And like it or not that is a failure on the clubs part.

Yes we have strengthened, but not enough.