Topic: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?

[ManiacKop]

We melt down because we have blisteringly good attackers who can score bucket loads of goals, but also clueless defensive players who make sure we concede bucket loads.
It doesn’t matter what the score is during the game, we play the same way. It could just have easily been us coming back from 3-0 down against Sevilla.
Most of our games seem to start of with the scores at 6-6 and whichever team misses the most sitters loses the game. Any score is possible.
It reminds me of Roy Evans football. And I have many fond memories of that era.. but very few trophies.

We seem to have a habit of allowing the opposition to look like Barcelona when they attack... yet we attack just as fluently, but all too often their keeper will have the game of his life whilst Mignolet/Lovren/Moreno will be gifting teams chances.

We need better players. But we also need better tactics when we want to slow the game down or see it out. I’m sure klopp agrees with one of the above. Iv just accepted that with klopp we are on a rollercoaster journey. The heights will be fun, the lows will be frustrating.

[LiamG]

We need a top keeper.

We need a mascherano. Someone who can be an outlet when a team is going all gung ho on us.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST WE NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY DIRTY. If you get touched when things are going the wrong way..just fall down. Time wasting starts from the 1st minute of the second half.

Everything else will fall into place.

I'd say we need more of an alonso than a mascherano, someone who can control the game

[the_red_pill]

I don't think it's a system thing, I think it's a personnel problem.

Nobody in midfield has a safety first attitude.
Our keeper is indecisive
Our fullbacks are inexperienced
We lack height as a team

I think it's hard for us to improve organically with such a poor balance in terms of defensive minded players.

If there's one English manager I have good respect for and always have good things to say about the club as a whole- it's Alan Curbishley.
Always has insightful opinions and he's said it once- our defense.. they don't seem to anticipate danger. As you say- it extends to midfield.

[the_red_pill]

Stick a new goalie, centre half, left back and defensive mid in that team and lets see if it can defend then.

It couldn't defend under Brendan and its' still the same players back there.

But, Hendo is on Jurgen and is the most interesting potential transfer of the lot.

Nah- don't think that will change much. We already have very talented lads. We don't need wholesale replacements(one or two maybe)- I'd stick in a real captain in there and his enforcer(ala Stevie and Carra- a captain and an enforcer of the captain's). They don't have to be supremely talented- they just need to have very good mentalities. There would be a massive difference. Simply because we will have someone who will want to win any game and they will see to it that it's done. People who despise losing. They will make sure they win it even if they have to drag your arse to perform. If they're "nasty" - that nastiness will rub off and they will of course encourage a bit of cuntishness and snidey, cynical antics to win a game. You don't need a captain who is extraordinarily skillfull and talented either- your run-off-mill top 6 captain will suffice- he will use the resources around him to accomplish HIS goal and to compensate for his lack of skill. No biggy. He's the manager on the field.

Forget about the mentality of the individuals- they don't need replacing- they need a leader on the pitch who will get them to focus on their jobs and keep them consistent. Individuals need examples. Leadership will rub off on some of them, because some people learn and others don't. Currently- they won't recognize a captain when they see one. Hell- half of our supporters don't anymore and it's only been a few seasons. They're even going so far as to completely downplay the importance of a captain! There is no leader or a vice so everyone is involved in his own thoughts and his own agenda. They need someone to get them all to focus on HIS agenda(which is obviously in line with the manager- to WIN the game).
To sort them out at corners- "Lovren get the fuck back and mark that shite!". "Mignolet, cover your bloody post!"
"Eh, Moreno- cut the shit out and focus!". To make sure his squad is at 100% - "Are you alright lad?". "How's the leg?". "Just 5 minutes more effort lads..". To notice tactical changes or to relay tactical instruction from the manager- "You 3!.. The're beating us physically at the back, so you WILL win your next aerial ball and don't let anyone get a sniff of a second ball!" etc..
Constantly checking up on his teammates, reading the game and how it's going; and communicating so that they're focussed on his agenda and be able to provide feedback. Give them a season or two under a real captain and some will "grow"- they won't need babysitting anymore.

Teams aren't filled with captains- very rarely and I don't know where this myth comes from. If you don't have a captain- you will have 11 players out there - each with their own agenda and with differing mental and physical states. Too many cooks, spoil the food!
Teams have always had to have captains and one or two that are genuine vice captains. The rest will fall in. They keep everyone on their toes- on their games and everyone's eyes on the ball- pulling in one direction. That's the main thing we need. That's what we needed on Wednesday- not to just sub Moreno by default! It didn't arrest the decline because Milner was just as bad, which shows you that it's not an individual thing. We needed Henderson to wake them up and whip them up and get Moreno to focus on the game and stop fannying around. Henderson needed to have everyone focus on one thing so as to suppress what was happening around them. We need to start there. We've had massive recruitement and investment into the squad. We've already moved to address the DM situation with Keita, so we're getting there. We just need to get our captain situation sorted out.

[slotmachine]

A poster in this thread said where was Banega in the first half? Dont let the 3-0 scoreline fool you he ran the show in the first half. He controlled the game throughout. He plays a free role and he goes so deep to get the ball it is hard to for any of our midfield to get near him. Seville created some good chances but they also opened us up about half a dozen times. Henderson at 6 cant vacate to press Banega and in the first half it looked like it was Gini who was trying to get close to him and when this happened Banega was just fizzing it into the half spaces and we only had Hendo who was outnumbered and without any support from Phil who was a real passenger i thought.

At least in the first half we looked lethal on the counter as for the first 15 minutes of the second half. Moreno has a mare and you could see the team psychologically just goes into the tank. We have a team who is scarred by collapsing and giving up leads. I feel the problem with Klopp in this game is he never changed the shape at all throughout the game. He brings Can and Milner on and he played the exact same formation and shape we had been second best with all night. The subs were just like for like. I felt he should have moved Gini alongside Hendo and played with a 2 in front of the back four and said to Emre who is a great athlete and fresh off the bench go man to man on Banega and follow him everywhere. He also could have went to a back 3 and pushed Gomez central and really tightened us up down the middle. I felt in the second half when we were under the cosh Salah, Mane and Coutinho were poor and left our midfield and fullbacks exposed.

I feel that fans are focusing on certain players as scapegoats rather than a collective problem which includes Klopp, Tactics and a mentality that we need to develop. I feel ultimately long term Klopp has to go back to his 4-2-3-1, i think when Keita comes he will play alongside a 6 in the 2 and we will have a more solid base to attack from. Also Keita will help us with his ability to receive the ball in tight spaces and also on the half turn which will help us when were under pressure.

[Sinyoro]

I keep seeing "lack of leadership" mentioned. What does that mean? What is leadership?

Leadership is about taking responsibility and not waiting to be given direction all the time. Leaders look at situations and initiate action towards a favorable outcome. For us, we need leaders who communicate with teammates at pivotal moments to warn of danger, take supportive action, encourage teammates when mental fatigue sets in. We need leaders who give the verbals at appropriate times when complacency sets in.
We need no nonsense leaders who set an example by ruffling the opposition where necessary, esp in midfield where a good crunching tackle sets the tone that the team is ready for a physical battle if needed. We need leaders who direct positional play at set pieces.

Sadly, we lack leadership in our team.

[WisconsinRed]

Leadership is about taking responsibility and not waiting to be given direction all the time. Leaders look at situations and initiate action towards a favorable outcome. For us, we need leaders who communicate with teammates at pivotal moments to warn of danger, take supportive action, encourage teammates when mental fatigue sets in. We need leaders who give the verbals at appropriate times when complacency sets in.
We need no nonsense leaders who set an example by ruffling the opposition where necessary, esp in midfield where a good crunching tackle sets the tone that the team is ready for a physical battle if needed. We need leaders who direct positional play at set pieces.

Sadly, we lack leadership in our team.

Good post mate.

Henderson doesn't measure up well against those attributes.

The responsibility one in particular. For me he doesn't take enough responsibility in any part of his game especially on the ball

[fowlermagic]

Its just not to one player that leads to our meltdowns as it takes several players to go missing which leads to the blocks tumbling. Also Jurgen has to take a lot of the blame as he is the man that decides who needs to do what and when we are without the ball and under the cosh what does he do to try & turn the tide? It stems from him down so while the players take a brunt of our venom Klopp should be standing in front takng the steam from us. Look it happened and has occurred way too often in recent memory for us to not try and sort it out. Personally there is too many players in the squad who have been shell shocked by several implosions. They have shown traits of fear when the first sniff of a goal goes in against us even if we are 2 goals to the good. The fear spreads in the team so surely the 2 or 3 guys who bottle it in these occassions need to be gone next season. Likewise when we go down 1-0, the team(fans multiply the fear as they know how we weak we are in certain circumstances and highlight it with the shyte atmosphere) again start to bottle it as unless we get off on the front foot we can struggle to change the tide in a game.


Things have to change in terms of our options as Jurgen has to take a leaf out of Rafa's book on certain games /  moments. Lets continue to play our natural game as its bloody brilliant but surely be to god there is a place in the team for better defenders and improve the metronome in the middle of the park. We cant play rush football all the time and need to know how to put a foot on the ball and control the tempo of the game especially when the tide is against us a bit. Henderson is a box to box player, always has been so with Can leaving, Keita coming in Henderson can surely battle for the more forward midfield roles while covering the holding position that needs a huge addition. Here we are spending millions on Keita who does a role in the team we already have spent $$ on with Gini. Close to 80m plus so please Jurgen dont try and sort out a holding role / defedners with more freebies / Bosmans as it warrants a similar cash injection.

[b_joseph]

Leadership is about taking responsibility and not waiting to be given direction all the time. Leaders look at situations and initiate action towards a favorable outcome. For us, we need leaders who communicate with teammates at pivotal moments to warn of danger, take supportive action, encourage teammates when mental fatigue sets in. We need leaders who give the verbals at appropriate times when complacency sets in.
We need no nonsense leaders who set an example by ruffling the opposition where necessary, esp in midfield where a good crunching tackle sets the tone that the team is ready for a physical battle if needed. We need leaders who direct positional play at set pieces.

Sadly, we lack leadership in our team.

Thats like 1984.
You've got 2 different coaches who have looked at Henderson for years and still want him as their captain. One of those coaches wanted to sell him before he got to know him.

What are the serious odds that we know what his leadership qualities are and the men who entrust him to captain their teams dont?

[stevensr123]

It certainly isn't the system for me, it's the personnel in the system and Klopp keeps on picking them/didn't replace them.

This isn't so much about this game but this season and last season, and the season before that etc

We don't have a keeper who commands the box, constistenly makes good saves, gives confidence to the back line, a leader etc

Our centre backs are so inconsistent, they go from a 3 to a 8 from match to match or even during the game. Too prone to individual mistakes, zero leadership quality and they don't trust each other.


And our midfield is THE biggest problem, I'm not even going to mention can because he is already gone for me.

 Henderson and wijnaldum are far far too inconsistent, don't control the games, provide zero defensive help to our back line, don't contribute enough in terms of goals, assists ect really not sure what the fuck they do but they are not like this every game either, it's simply an inconstancy problem. They go from an 7/8 for one game, then stink out the place the next.


So for me this melt down stuff isn't about the system, it's about the quality of players we have and a lack of leadership in the team.

[Tony19:6]

How do we fix it ? - stop accepting mediocrity.

[Sinyoro]

Thats like 1984.
You've got 2 different coaches who have looked at Henderson for years and still want him as their captain. One of those coaches wanted to sell him before he got to know him.

What are the serious odds that we know what his leadership qualities are and the men who entrust him to captain their teams dont?

My definition of leadership is not confined to one player only. We need leadership all across the pitch. Every player should be a leader. One player taking responsibility will not make any difference at all. Every player needs to take responsibility. I will never blame one individual in a team game.
For Moreno to make individual errors that lead to a goal, it certainly means that he didn’t get enough support from teammates, either to minimise the chances of said errors occurring or to minimise the consequences of the errors.
It is not about Henderson alone, everyone should be a leader

[Nessy76]

.

Teams aren't filled with captains- very rarely and I don't know where this myth comes from. If you don't have a captain- you will have 11 players out there - each with their own agenda and with differing mental and physical states. Too many cooks, spoil the food!

I think the point is that you don't need to be the man with the armband to do any of that. As others have said, Carra wasn't the captain, but he still did most of what you're talking about (Although only from a certain point, he was regarded as a liability for a while) and you could take the armband off Gerrard but he was not going to suddenly go quiet or start playing differently. Fetishising the captaincy isn't the answer, it puts too much on one player. What if he's out? The problem with following leaders is what everyone does when the leader is gone and suddenly they need to think about things they are not used to thinking about. It's better if there is a collective responsibility.

[PhaseOfPlay]

We have the same meltdowns under Klopp that we did under Rodgers (and Evans, way earlier) because we don't recruit enough players who are technically capable under pressure. You don't have to be a shouter and a pointer to stay focused - confidence in the knowledge that you can shield, turn, dribble and pass your way out of trouble is much more useful than having someone shouting at people. It looks good, but its ultimately futile when you have players who aren't always comfortable technically. The great Barca side didn't have a lot of "shouters" or "leaders" or "captains". But what they did have was 15-20 squad players who were immersed with playing under enormous defensive pressure, such that they went against the grain and would deliberately play passes into the feet of pressured team-mates, knowing full well they would both keep the ball and draw other defenders to them, thus creating space for the rest. That's what made them so great, and why counter-pressing that team was often futile. Rodgers had the right ideas, but not the political aggression to demand the players he wanted from the board/transfer committee. Klopp looks like he knows what he wants, but whether he'll get it is a different story - and that is a squad of players who are physically strong, technically capable, and can work their way out of pressure, draw teams in, and hit them in the spaces they leave behind. If we get those players, then discussions about "captains" and "leaders" will be obsolete.

[the_red_pill]

I think the point is that you don't need to be the man with the armband to do any of that. As others have said, Carra wasn't the captain, but he still did most of what you're talking about (Although only from a certain point, he was regarded as a liability for a while) and you could take the armband off Gerrard but he was not going to suddenly go quiet or start playing differently. Fetishising the captaincy isn't the answer, it puts too much on one player. What if he's out? The problem with following leaders is what everyone does when the leader is gone and suddenly they need to think about things they are not used to thinking about. It's better if there is a collective responsibility.

I understand that Nessy- which is why good teams always have 2/3 such players AND then those who choose to learn. You can always increase the mentality of your team naturally BUT only if you have a leader(s) who those who have an affinity/talent for that sort of thing, can look up to, observe and learn from... but if you have a caricature of such a person... well then- you'll have caricatures as their spawn. We'll only have ourselves to blame then.
Also, I agree- you don't need the armband. I was looking at it from the fundamental pov, but what I'm getting at is the same- a leader will rise to the position though- that's just inevitable and the hopefuls will remain his enforcers(ala Carragher). In the absence of the official captain- there's no biggie- one of the others step up easily, they will naturally do that.

But we're not even there yet. I admit- that's an idealistic view, but if we can "half" of that, we'll be a different team.
I get those arguing for "leaders throughout" the pitch and I want that- believe me I do- so what's the next step? How do we improve the situation as soon as possible? We want to see results and we should START to rectify it as soon as possible. When can we realistically do something about it? If you have a squad already- which you built with quite a "bit" of effort, then all you can do is to start recruiting with mentality high on the list, henceforth and hopefully, your first, next recruitment would be a captain for a start.
The other option is to dismantle it all and start from scratch and emulate the likes of Barca. No way am I getting rid of Mane, Salah, Coutinho, Gino- who all/some were part of that collapse, part of the Spurs debacle and part of the City picnic. No way! If we remove everyone else- then that's just about all we have. It's a MASSIVE overhaul to perform. That's prolly 500million in overhauliing and that won't buy you a top-tier squad who can equal the exploits of Barca, PSG, Madrid, Bayern Munich. Those are the teams with leaders throughout the pitch. We're arguing for a team with the power of the sun in their eyes and fire in their bellies and that's just not practical or realistic.

That is.. not an option for us- at least not now, which is why I'm advocating to at least start with the glaring obvious.. then we move on from there.

There are different approaches to tam building- either you fill your squid with strong mentalities or you fill them with talented "water-carriers" and throw in 3/4 winning mentalities in there. Either way- both works and currently prolly 90% of top teams follow the latter(and that's been working for more than a hundred years), while the rest prolly follow the former(I'm looking at ye, Barca..).

[So… Howard Philips]

But what they did have was 15-20 squad players who were immersed with playing under enormous defensive pressure, such that they went against the grain and would deliberately play passes into the feet of pressured team-mates, knowing full well they would both keep the ball and draw other defenders to them, thus creating space for the rest.

And without using this to have a go at Moreno that is precisely the opposite of what happened leading up to the penalty. Coutinho played the ball in but he failed to control, leading to his clumsy challenge in the box.

It's the regularity our players lose the ball under pressure which is concerning. Gini and Coutinho have the knack of receiving the ball and turning under pressure. Others don't.

And good to see you back POP after a two year break.

[Sinyoro]

We have the same meltdowns under Klopp that we did under Rodgers (and Evans, way earlier) because we don't recruit enough players who are technically capable under pressure. You don't have to be a shouter and a pointer to stay focused - confidence in the knowledge that you can shield, turn, dribble and pass your way out of trouble is much more useful than having someone shouting at people. It looks good, but its ultimately futile when you have players who aren't always comfortable technically. The great Barca side didn't have a lot of "shouters" or "leaders" or "captains". But what they did have was 15-20 squad players who were immersed with playing under enormous defensive pressure, such that they went against the grain and would deliberately play passes into the feet of pressured team-mates, knowing full well they would both keep the ball and draw other defenders to them, thus creating space for the rest. That's what made them so great, and why counter-pressing that team was often futile. Rodgers had the right ideas, but not the political aggression to demand the players he wanted from the board/transfer committee. Klopp looks like he knows what he wants, but whether he'll get it is a different story - and that is a squad of players who are physically strong, technically capable, and can work their way out of pressure, draw teams in, and hit them in the spaces they leave behind. If we get those players, then discussions about "captains" and "leaders" will be obsolete.

This is part of the story that made them great but that team had some great leaders.
Puyol, Pique, Abidal, Iniesta, Messi, Xavi, Etoo, Ibra to name just a few, are/were not reactive players. At one point or another in their careers they wore the armband.
Great technical skills allied to leadership all over the pitch made Barcelona a formidable outfit.

[the_red_pill]

We have the same meltdowns under Klopp that we did under Rodgers (and Evans, way earlier) because we don't recruit enough players who are technically capable under pressure. You don't have to be a shouter and a pointer to stay focused - confidence in the knowledge that you can shield, turn, dribble and pass your way out of trouble is much more useful than having someone shouting at people. It looks good, but its ultimately futile when you have players who aren't always comfortable technically. The great Barca side didn't have a lot of "shouters" or "leaders" or "captains". But what they did have was 15-20 squad players who were immersed with playing under enormous defensive pressure, such that they went against the grain and would deliberately play passes into the feet of pressured team-mates, knowing full well they would both keep the ball and draw other defenders to them, thus creating space for the rest. That's what made them so great, and why counter-pressing that team was often futile. Rodgers had the right ideas, but not the political aggression to demand the players he wanted from the board/transfer committee. Klopp looks like he knows what he wants, but whether he'll get it is a different story - and that is a squad of players who are physically strong, technically capable, and can work their way out of pressure, draw teams in, and hit them in the spaces they leave behind. If we get those players, then discussions about "captains" and "leaders" will be obsolete.

Great to see you back mate! Missed your posts. At least we had Babu and some of the other footballing minds on here to console some of us.

[diegoLFC7]

It all comes down to leadership. We dont have any leaders in the team. Skrtel was the last player we had that would shout at everyone and try to organize the team. Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso, Carragher, Reina, etc were players that composed the team.

[Funky_Gibbons]

It all comes down to leadership. We dont have any leaders in the team. Skrtel was the last player we had that would shout at everyone and try to organize the team. Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso, Carragher, Reina, etc were players that composed the team.

That’s not the Skrtel I remember. All he wanted to do was drop to the sanctuary of his 18-yard box.

[robertobaggio37]

As many have already said, we lack leaders. We lack leaders who breathe football, someone who knows what needs to be done in order to win the game. Too soft, too nice, too predictable. Every once in a while you need that cynicism in your team and unfortunately for us we don't have that. When was the last time someone simulated an injury? Or time wasted the last minutes? Why can't we do it while every other team can? By all accounts play fair but you can only get that far.

[na fir dearg]

I keep seeing "lack of leadership" mentioned. What does that mean? What is leadership?

for me, its courage. Courage to get on the ball when things are going against you, to receive the ball in tight spaces, simple passing, slow the game down. Putting your foot in when its needed, corralling those around you

Courage and bravery for me.

and to answer the topic, yes we dont have enough leaders or people who can manage the game, our team is generally young, you would hope that the 2nd half against Sevilla will lead to some lessons being learned and hopefully Klopp is able to see this as well

However, looking at the other premiership teams i dont see any great leaders standing out really, maybe Aguero/De Bruyne for City - its not like years ago

[alonsoisared]

Conflicted on this issue. But to deny there is an issue is madness, no team capitulates as predictably and as regularly as we do. It can't just be written off as nothing.

Part of me wonders if as a club we are still wounded from that night at Crystal Palace. But then in that 13/14 run in there were a few near misses; at Norwich we let them right back in to the game, we gave Cardiff and Swansea routes back into high scoring games. The Man City game was different but even there we lost a 2 goal lead. But I do just wonder if since that night it has become something of a self fulfilling prophecy, whether it plays on our players' minds when they should be calm and collected.

That is a pretty vague factor but one that I think could contribute. The larger factor is the way we set up. I think too many of our players aren't good enough, and it's true that most of them have never won anything so possibly don't have a "winning mentality". We do have players that seem to go hiding when the tide turns in games, our midfield the other night was absolutely awful. But then I think back to our sides that have been successful in recent years. We went to Turin in 2005 with Biscan, Traore and Nunez in our starting 11. Le Tallec came off the bench. Also on the bench were Welsh, Potter and Warnock. None of those players would be described at the time as "winners", but in an absolute cauldron grinded out what has to go down as one of our most impressive ever European results. Gerrard was suspended.

Mentality may well play a part, with certain players I think you can see that there is some weakness there. But the set up and the way they are told to deal with those situations is the major difference, in my opinion. Rodgers and Klopp are both pretty similar in the way they approach the game, while the personnel has largely changed between Palace and Sevilla, the failings in the defensive set up have lingered. Klopp, as much as I love him, does have that rabbit in the headlights look about him at times when games are falling away. The Europa League final was the first time i'd really questioned it. Seeing him trying to gee up the fans whilst not offering any changes to the system to steady the flow was extremely frustrating. 2 seasons later and again he failed to shore us up in any way. As soon as the first went in, the whole world knew what was coming next.

At some point we need to find a solution. Better players can inevitably be part of that. Henderson and Wijnaldum are pretty horrible options in those circumstances as both resort to hopeful long balls. Neither seem to be able to take the sting out of a game in the way we've seen from better midfielders we've had in recent years; Alonso being the obvious example. Maybe Keita is someone who will be better at getting his foot on the ball and adding control and leadership from the middle. But that being said, a manager has to make the best of the tools that he's given. And these aren't even the tools Klopp was given any more, they've either been signed by him or he's decided that he trusts them enough not to have to replace them. Many of the individuals have let him down frequently and yet they are still here as first choice players.

[liverpool185]

Stick a new goalie, centre half, left back and defensive mid in that team and lets see if it can defend then.

It couldn't defend under Brendan and its' still the same players back there.

Spot on.

Why we keep on persisting with these error prone/average players in the side is beyond me. Lovren, Mignolet and Moreno have all shown they cannot be trusted on a consistent basis, so why are they still here? still starting games? It's fucking baffling. All 3 should of been shipped out ages ago and I don't know why Klopp keeps persisting with these players. All 3 of these players have the worst mentality's i have seen at this club.

Until these three players are not in the first 11 week in week out we will always be shipping goals and blowing leads. It's as simple as that, everyone can see this but why cant Klopp?

[So… Howard Philips]

Spot on.

Why we keep on persisting with these error prone/average players in the side is beyond me. Lovren, Mignolet and Moreno have all shown they cannot be trusted on a consistent basis, so why are they still here? still starting games? It's fucking baffling. All 3 should of been shipped out ages ago and I don't know why Klopp keeps persisting with these players. All 3 of these players have the worst mentality's i have seen at this club.

Until these three players are not in the first 11 week in week out we will always be shipping goals and blowing leads. It's as simple as that, everyone can see this but why cant Klopp?

Maybe Klopp is the problem? Either he is too loyal or incompetent?

After all it's so simple everyone can see it.

[jillcwhomever]

Maybe Klopp is the problem? Either he is too loyal or incompetent?

After all it's so simple everyone can see it.

What it is to be an expert hey, what did we do before the internet came along? 

[So… Howard Philips]

What it is to be an expert hey, what did we do before the internet came along? 

Moan in the pub or, in January 1974, write a polite letter of complaint to Mr Sidney Reakes asking the board to terminate the contract of Mr William Shankly as he hasn't won a trophy since the league title in 1966.

Or now, whinge every five minutes about every aspect of the club.

[Tony19:6]

What it is to be an expert hey, what did we do before the internet came along? 

Is accepting mediocrity your point?

[So… Howard Philips]

Is accepting mediocrity your point?

I don't think it's about accepting mediocrity. It's about accepting that not all criticism is justified.

[jillcwhomever]

Is accepting mediocrity your point?

Not at all. I don't believe in miracles though, this idea we can just buy success is to me ridiculous. You have to have a long-term plan as Klopp does to succeed, but it also means being patient. Unless of course you think Klopp accepts mediocrity?

[Tony19:6]

Not at all. I don't believe in miracles though, this idea we can just buy success is to me ridiculous. You have to have a long-term plan as Klopp does to succeed, but it also means being patient. Unless of course you think Klopp accepts mediocrity?
[/quote.]
I love Klopp and think he is the perfect manager for us, but  I do think he's a stubborn so and so and yes he's bought mediocrity..

[jillcwhomever]

All managers are stubborn, I bet you are as well, I know I can be about certain things. You have to believe in the vision you have and how you go about things, especially in football where everyone from uselss pundits, to irate fans question everything about your philosophy. Klopp's biggest problem to suceeding here, is the fact he goes about things in an different way. It is one of the things I really admire about him, in actual fact. It never ceases to amaze me how quick people can be to throw someone aside. One or two bad games and to some people that means you're shite, and you're never going to suceed. Think for a moment how that would be for all of us if that was how people judged us, so quickly, so instantly. The fact that he gives time to players is refreshing to me, but this is Klopp's way, always has been. So many of our fans were longing for him to come here, and now they want him to be someone else. A manager like Klopp can only do it one way, and that's his way.

[PhaseOfPlay]

All managers are stubborn, I bet you are as well, I know I can be about certain things. You have to believe in the vision you have and how you go about things, especially in football where everyone from uselss pundits, to irate fans question everything about your philosophy. Klopp's biggest problem to suceeding here, is the fact he goes about things in an different way. It is one of the things I really admire about him, in actual fact. It never ceases to amaze me how quick people can be to throw someone aside. One or two bad games and to some people that means you're shite, and you're never going to suceed. Think for a moment how that would be for all of us if that was how people judged us, so quickly, so instantly. The fact that he gives time to players is refreshing to me, but this is Klopp's way, always has been. So many of our fans were longing for him to come here, and now they want him to be someone else. A manager like Klopp can only do it one way, and that's his way.

All of this could have been said about the previous manager. Or the one who won us #5. Or the one before him, who actually pointed out that if Liverpool fans wanted him to be someone else, it wasn't going to happen. It's just the way of sport support these days, with instant access to as much sport and information as we want. The "Now" culture means that if we're not instantly satisfied, then the agent of that satisfaction has to be replaced with another agent that can bring it. Just look at Leicester. Barring major Oil money investment, they will never challenge for - let alone win - the Premier League again. But the man who actually did the impossible was cast aside like a rag once the going got tough. It's sadly the way of the Western world (and further afield) - "What have you done for me lately?", rather than "What could you do for us tomorrow and the next day?"

[Asam]

We’re too soft as a club, the standards are low. I accept Klopp wants to improve players but how long do you persist with polishing a turd? We need a ruthless approach where the objective is clear, we must win, what we have today is a manager who wants to be your best mate and is used to being a valiant loser.

It’s harsh but I don’t see us winning anything major for a long time, we’re too nice, losing doesn’t hurt, dropping points causes no shame because you’ll get a medal and a pat on your back just for taking part.

I’d love to see the senior players holding everyone to account when standards drop below acceptable levels but we’re more likely to see our players advertising hypo-allergenic moisturiser ffs.

[jillcwhomever]

All of this could have been said about the previous manager. Or the one who won us #5. Or the one before him, who actually pointed out that if Liverpool fans wanted him to be someone else, it wasn't going to happen. It's just the way of sport support these days, with instant access to as much sport and information as we want. The "Now" culture means that if we're not instantly satisfied, then the agent of that satisfaction has to be replaced with another agent that can bring it. Just look at Leicester. Barring major Oil money investment, they will never challenge for - let alone win - the Premier League again. But the man who actually did the impossible was cast aside like a rag once the going got tough. It's sadly the way of the Western world (and further afield) - "What have you done for me lately?", rather than "What could you do for us tomorrow and the next day?"

I agree football is full of short terms appointments and very few plan for any long term projects. The first set back comes and people go into melt down and decide things will never change. You're right about the culture thing, football is not a sport anymore, its on 24 hours a day. Everyone's an expert, and managers have to fight just to stay in their jobs, never mind have the time to show their visions. The Ranieri thing was a case in point. I always remember how close Ferguson was to being sacked, and we all know what happened next. In today's world I just think sometimes you have to try a different approach to compete in football, and if that means it takes time, then so be it.  We all know though how likely that is sadly.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I agree football is full of short terms appointments and very few plan for any long term projects. The first set back comes and people go into melt down and decide things will never change. You're right about the culture thing, football is not a sport anymore, its on 24 hours a day. Everyone's an expert, and managers have to fight just to stay in their jobs, never mind have the time to show their visions. The Ranieri thing was a case in point. I always remember how close Ferguson was to being sacked, and we all know what happened next. In today's world I just think sometimes you have to try a different approach to compete in football, and if that means it takes time, then so be it.  We all know though how likely that is sadly.

Well he came in and fixed the attack, and got a start on the defence (Salah and Mane in up front, Matip at the back)

Looks like he tried with the Goalkeeper, but maybe he needs to look at that again.

And Keita means he's also looking at the midfield too.

So for me, next two transfer windows will be telling. And now no transfer committee to muddy the waters. A more targeted approach, meaning the manager will get who he wants (or will leave well enough alone if he can't).

This time next year, I think our starting 11 will be mostly different, and probably better suited to the demands of Klopp's ideas.

[jillcwhomever]

Well he came in and fixed the attack, and got a start on the defence (Salah and Mane in up front, Matip at the back)

Looks like he tried with the Goalkeeper, but maybe he needs to look at that again.

And Keita means he's also looking at the midfield too.

So for me, next two transfer windows will be telling. And now no transfer committee to muddy the waters. A more targeted approach, meaning the manager will get who he wants (or will leave well enough alone if he can't).

This time next year, I think our starting 11 will be mostly different, and probably better suited to the demands of Klopp's ideas.

I agree next season will be key, but for now I feel quite chilled and I'm happy to see where he takes us. I like the fact that he works in a methodical way, in how he goes about things. To me it makes perfect sense, I certainly don't agree with those who say he ignores things. Manager who ignore things don't tend to win anything, but I am quite happy with the idea that he will wait until the right player comes along. I have never seen the point in buying, for buying's sake, it just brings you nothing but trouble longer term. Like you I feel we will have a different team to the one we have at present, and that excites me. Besides which Keita will make a big difference, and there will others too I suspect. But let's not turn this into a transfer thread. I am totally relaxed and feel once he gets the players he wants, everything will seem very different to now.

[Samie]

I'm here for the PoP vs Babu showdown. Who will throw the first heat map?

[Johnnyboy1973]

It's as simple as that, everyone can see this but why cant Klopp?

I'd argue he has. He bought Karius to replace Mignolet. He replaced Moreno with Millner and then bought Robertson. VVD was going to replace Lovren.

His problem has been not closing VVD and both Karius or Robertson not being good enough to replace those ahead of them. It could be argued though, that they have served a purpose though. When Mignolet came back after being dropped last season, he was better and in the last ten to thirteen games was in the form of his life. Up until Sevilla, Moreno had never been better for us.

The area he hasn't addressed is the 6 but it isn't easy when your captain is there and there's another player who can operate but isn't that great either.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

'stop accepting mediocrity'

What it implies is that we're not reacting enough. Maybe we should be like Everton? Sack Moyes for not being attacking enough. Sack Martinez for not sorting the defence. Get Koeman in, Barca pedigree ya know. Oh, he's shite, bin him off. That's Everton not accepting mediocrity - but finding it anyway, due to a lack of consistency, and a fanbase toxic and rabid at the first sign of trouble.

How are we supposed to enforce this? The same way Everton do, by getting on the managers back, and booing the players at every opportunity?

Or should we perhaps be more like Real Madrid, getting their hankies out in protest every time they don't win the league?

It's fair to not want to be mediocre, everyone wants their team to win and be excellent - but how exactly do we achieve the rejection of mediocrity?

Not every player can be a success, every team has 'mediocre' players, Chelsea just won the league with Victor Moses in the team. It's about optimising the usefulness of players, and mitigating against their weaknesses. We failed that task with Moreno this week. But he's been decent this season apart from that.