Topic: The Walking Dead

[lionel_messias]

Thought it was a good episode up until the car crash moment.

How can two men swinging a baseball bat (in flames at one point) miss each other so often? At one point Rick was walking through a doorway. How can you miss a human male walking through a doorway, you have 3-4 feet to aim at to cause terrible damage!

If you cut out the Scooby-Doo fight, it was a pretty good episode, atmospheric and quite tense.

The last five seconds of course were nonsensically ridiculous.

And anyone who captures Negan, why wouldn't you just shoot him in both kneecaps, save yourself brutally dying some point down the line!

[Macphisto80]

Thought it was a good episode up until the car crash moment.

How can two men swinging a baseball bat (in flames at one point) miss each other so often? At one point Rick was walking through a doorway. How can you miss a human male walking through a doorway, you have 3-4 feet to aim at to cause terrible damage!

If you cut out the Scooby-Doo fight, it was a pretty good episode, atmospheric and quite tense.

The last five seconds of course were nonsensically ridiculous.

And anyone who captures Negan, why wouldn't you just shoot him in both kneecaps, save yourself brutally dying some point down the line!

Yep. It does some stuff good, but then mars it all by writing dumb shit into it. It's just basic and avoidable. A few minor tweaks to this show and it could be actually decent. Of course, we don't know what Jadis' motives are for keeping Negan in one piece, but just as her character gets interesting...more dumb shit. Hopefully Steven Ogg's character develops Trevor's special ability from GTA and goes on a rampage, killing them all, standing there at the end a'la Walter White in his undercrackers with an AK-47. I'd be satisfied with that ending.

[lionel_messias]

Yep. It does some stuff good, but then mars it all by writing dumb shit into it. It's just basic and avoidable. A few minor tweaks to this show and it could be actually decent. Of course, we don't know what Jadis' motives are for keeping Negan in one piece, but just as her character gets interesting...more dumb shit. Hopefully Steven Ogg's character develops Trevor's special ability from GTA and goes on a rampage, killing them all, standing there at the end a'la Walter White in his undercrackers with an AK-47. I'd be satisfied with that ending.

Quietly Steven Ogg seems like the best actor in the show at times. Seems more of a human being than cartoonish Negan.

[Ziltoid]

Quietly Steven Ogg seems like the best actor in the show at times. Seems more of a human being than cartoonish Negan.

My lads favourite character

[Red_Irishman]

Just checking in the see how it's going. Reading some of the comments it seems it's still the same, absolute shit. Delighted I've stopped looking at it.

Such a pity, I loved this show at one point.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Just checking in the see how it's going. Reading some of the comments it seems it's still the same, absolute shit. Delighted I've stopped looking at it.

Such a pity, I loved this show at one point.

Nah it's been a lot better so far this half-season.

[lionel_messias]

Just checking in the see how it's going. Reading some of the comments it seems it's still the same, absolute shit. Delighted I've stopped looking at it.

Such a pity, I loved this show at one point.

Its not ALL shit, the last episode was pretty good until the last 5-6 minutes.

The problem they have is, they can't be arsed to figure out a full-on tactical battle between the two warring factions, led by Negan and Rick.

So the story meanders between episodic and often illogical showdowns. Rick and Negan occasionally meet and fail to hurt one another, even though they have guns and killer base-bats - and are in the same fucking room! It's like an endless loop of James Bond versus Blofield where the laser never quite meets his todger.

Thought has occurred to me: Jadis might be taking Negan to the GIANT MEAT GRINDER (in which case, she's so dippy herself, she's probably end up as Emo-Mincemeat(tm).

Bazinga.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

My fourpenneth on the current state of play.

I'm not really one for coming on here and knocking a movie or a TV series and certainly not one that's enthralled me so much as the Walking Dead has. That said, it's become increasingly undeniable that the show has lost much of its sparkle and whilst there's a whole shedful of reasons which have been cited seemingly interminably on here and which I'm fucked if I'm going to regurgitate, the downturn in the show's attraction has had me reflecting as to why it is.

In this regard, one reason that I don't think has been talked about on here and one that I think is pretty crucial concerns what for me is the very essence of why these sort of post-apocalyptic things - and particularly The Walking Dead - work and appeal so much. That is the sense of isolation and desolation that needs to lie at their core to give them their intrinsic bite [scuse the pun] and the accompanying pondering as to whether there really is anyone else left out there.

Since the discovery of Hilltop and, more pertinently, the Saviours we've seen the world of Rick and co inhabited by bigger gatherings of people than your average league gate at Goodison Park. Survivors have become so much the norm that any encounters with them have become ten a penny, the degree of human saturation invariably serving to provide less excitement than a trip to fucking Sainsbury's. 

It's meant The Walking Dead of the past two or three seasons has actually become an entirely different world to the one that so beguiled us all in the good old bad old days when the biggest excitement was not merely the Walkers and certainly not the limp cowboy and indian shoot outs but rather the tension of what was still out there and the possibility of fresh encounters with other small pockets of other survivors - goodies or baddies.

In these past few Seasons, if we go back to what I think was the very first encounter with The Saviours on their mopeds when Darryl bazookered them to bits, the biggest excitements of that scene were a] suddenly seeing them in the road, b] their decimation [admitttedly] and - most surprisingly and intriguingly -  c] what came later on the forums with the ensuing rumour that a car in the distance had witnessed the encounter and driven off.

Back then it was the sense of mystery and prospect of what might possibly lie in store that provided the intrigue and excitement that was so compelling. The actual revelation of the mini Roman empire with a cast of thousands that constituted boring Saviour World was for me a huge turn off, albeit I'd be telling porkies if I said I haven't still remained glued to the show throughout it all.

For me, though, the vital element of the show was always identifying with the small group as they made their way often aimlessly, occasionally with deliberation. It made me feel part of the journey. In recent seasons there's simply been no journey.

Finally, as testament to how the show has always best worked for me, in this latest season it was the scene where Rick spotted the helicopter which has stayed with me - again I guess for the simple reason that it provided some much needed mystery and intrigue - namely what the fuck and, more pertinently, who the fuck was it?

  

[SP]

It has lost the internal tension in the group of the Shane days. The conflict is now nearly all external.

[PhaseOfPlay]

PoP's take on TWD. I know you've all been waiting on it

An enforced period of physical rest had me bingeing telly shows like a bastard last year - Sopranos again (and why not?), Breaking Bad again (because you have to), and then, having initially started this but not ever really having the time to get into it, The Walking Dead.

I've lost all interest in it, and have done since probably the Glen episode. And here's why, for me:

At the start, Rick wakes up to a changed world. He doesn't know why, we don't know why. All we know is that there are zombies, he's alone until Glen shows up, and once he finds his family and the merry band, we can all start the journey of "What the actual f*ck happened, and what are we going to do now?"

As SP stated, Shane was a great source of tension, because in the apocalypse, who is going to take charge - the white hat cowboy with values and a desire to keep things as normal as possible? Or the sociopath who has been waiting for his chance to show the world that he has the stones to be "the MAN"? So there was a plausible internal battle that wasn't based on good and evil, but rather old values vs the new reality, integrity vs expediency.

Then there was the search for "The Reason" - why had this happened, when will it end, and is there a cure? When they found that CDC building with Truman Show bloke, and he told Rick that everyone has the "virus" or whatever it is, it created a new tension, because now we knew everyone was actually doomed. So now we had a new "Maguffin" - the search for more answers, and the hope that Truman Mate was wrong. There was something driving the plot, and it was a literal and metaphorical road trip towards an explanation.

But then we had the Farm, which was just "Let's all try to win an Emmy for acting and directing", then the Guv'nor ("Hey, it's one-eyed Shane!"), and now Negan. As a fan of the Sopranos, it just seemed like Shane, Guvnor and Negan are basically Richie, Ralph and The Shah of Iran - archetypes for Rick to fight.

But this just makes TWD a soap opera. The Zombies - the very reason for the show - are an afterthought: from world-ending, mostly unkillable walking plague, to basically the apocalyptic equivalent of a poison toad, good for dipping an arrow in and firing it at an enemy.

For anyone of a certain age, the appeal of a show like TWD is akin to the horrific appeal of "Threads" - a movie whose outcome is actually realistic, possible, and at times, almost inevitable (especially these days). The documenting of how awful survival would be in a post-death world, with anarchy, clanism, lawlessness, and loss of social contract, is a major attraction of post-apocalypse pieces, but TWD has abandoned that for essentially becoming "V - the Series" - a collection of set-pieces with melodrama in between, and the villain surviving to cause problems another day, in different locations, with a possible "Special Guest Star", and maybe even a "Very Special Blossom" episode to encourage kids not to smoke, or wear eye-patches. 

Without the "Maguffin" of the virus, there's no reason for them to do anything but form an alliance with the strongest party, and get busy with the business of living in the new world. At that point, TWD becomes a Western rather than a Zombie show. They missed several tricks, between the cannibals, Judith (the first in-story baby born of the virus, who by story rights, should probably hold the key to a cure), the CDC bloke's message to Rick, the ability to get about and, you know, try another State - and most disappointingly, how Mullet Boy just turns coat like it was nothing, and not even some arch plan to forge blanks/faulty bullets to help his friends win the battle and put Negan's lads at a major disadvantage at a key moment. But no - he just does a heel turn, because reasons.

So I feel that this programme is becoming more like "Lost" - a great central concept, but they haven't got a clue where it's going, or how it's ending, so they just make it up as they go along, and increasingly start to rely on more and more schlocky tropes to carry the action and plot. They've also passed the point of no return with it, so it's probably not going to get any better. Which is a shame, because it started as a great idea, and the first two series absolutely nailed it. After that, though, it became more and more "Falcon Crest" and less "Dawn of the Dead".

All they're short of doing is ending it by telling us it was all in the mind of Carl, who lives in a cabin and stares into a zombie-figurine snow globe.

But at least that would be more believable than the stuff they've been coming up with for the past long while.

(And now, back to tactics and shit )

[Macphisto80]

PoP's take on TWD. I know you've all been waiting on it

Yep. That's a very good summary of it. I recollect having a debate with someone in this thread about Kirkman, the show's main influence and ultimately based off of his vision and writing from the comics. I think the man is a hack. It's as simple as that. As you say, he's taken central themes that are interesting enough on their own, but he's taken them from other things that have already existed and done little else with it.
   If you look at the pilot of this show and compare it to what it is now, it's almost like two completely different shows. The core of it being the emotional ties and connections to the dead and the effects that had on the living. Morgan was a broken man barely holding it together for his son. His wife was dead and wondered around the place at night, haunting them with her presence. When it came to the point of "putting her down" Morgan broke down and couldn't pull the trigger. You could empathise with that, and it struck a personal emotional cord to which everyone could relate to. Meanwhile Rick goes looking for the 'Bicycle Girl' that he saw from earlier. She initially horrified him, but he goes looking for her anyway because he felt the need to do the right thing and put her to rest.
  It's those little moments that grounded the show and gave it that little bit more of substance other than it just being confined to the usual horror tropes of most other things that involve a zombie apocalypse. It felt more like a "what if this were real" rather than just "here's a monster. Monsters are scary, so be scared" type thing. It also had moments like that in it too, which were also brilliantly executed, so it worked both ways, and that was the appeal.

  Alas, though - Kirkman. The show felt the need to stick to his plan and the comics too closely. If you think about some of the things that other writers came up with that actually weren't in the comic, like the aforementioned pilot scene, certain characters, and individual story threads, they are the best thing about the show. Daryl isn't in the comic, yet he's probably more popular than Rick. Carol was killed off early in the comic, so she might as well be a brand new character.
  I mean, the changes haven't all worked out as being positive, but in general they have, up until a point where it just didn't matter what they do with it, and that point probably came around a series or two back where characters just completely went off the rails and became even more paper thin and more absurd than their comic book counterparts. Just take a look at Morgan and compare him to the pilot for fuck sake. He's a man that's seemingly invincible, walks around with motorbike armour on, carries a staff that can go through people like a knife through butter, and has the skills of Bruce Lee and Shinobi.
  No doubt those are Kirkman's ideas, because he penned similar ones in the comic. Aziekle with his tiger in a magic kingdom? Aye, dead on! As soon as you start introducing shit like that, forget about it. It's going to completely descend into what it is, and what it is is just schlock action.

  So, there it is. That's what TWD now is.  Those interesting kernels of the emotional core it once had, where more could be said and done in a single intimate scene with a walker than and entire series of Rick and Negan playing Loony Toons antics of cat and mouse are long gone.
  It's just a different show now. There's no need for the facade of it trying to be anything else other than the poorly scripted comic that it's become, which is ironic really. It had massive potential to be more than that, but it got squandered because that's exactly what it aimed for once Darabont jumped ship, so in a way, job done.

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

In the comics,do the zombies still play a major role?

Still like the show but,it might as well be The Warriors tv series

[red mongoose]

Yep. That's a very good summary of it. I recollect having a debate with someone in this thread about Kirkman, the show's main influence and ultimately based off of his vision and writing from the comics. I think the man is a hack. It's as simple as that. As you say, he's taken central themes that are interesting enough on their own, but he's taken them from other things that have already existed and done little else with it.
   If you look at the pilot of this show and compare it to what it is now, it's almost like two completely different shows. The core of it being the emotional ties and connections to the dead and the effects that had on the living. Morgan was a broken man barely holding it together for his son. His wife was dead and wondered around the place at night, haunting them with her presence. When it came to the point of "putting her down" Morgan broke down and couldn't pull the trigger. You could empathise with that, and it struck a personal emotional cord to which everyone could relate to. Meanwhile Rick goes looking for the 'Bicycle Girl' that he saw from earlier. She initially horrified him, but he goes looking for her anyway because he felt the need to do the right thing and put her to rest.
  It's those little moments that grounded the show and gave it that little bit more of substance other than it just being confined to the usual horror tropes of most other things that involve a zombie apocalypse. It felt more like a "what if this were real" rather than just "here's a monster. Monsters are scary, so be scared" type thing. It also had moments like that in it too, which were also brilliantly executed, so it worked both ways, and that was the appeal.

  Alas, though - Kirkman. The show felt the need to stick to his plan and the comics too closely. If you think about some of the things that other writers came up with that actually weren't in the comic, like the aforementioned pilot scene, certain characters, and individual story threads, they are the best thing about the show. Daryl isn't in the comic, yet he's probably more popular than Rick. Carol was killed off early in the comic, so she might as well be a brand new character.
  I mean, the changes haven't all worked out as being positive, but in general they have, up until a point where it just didn't matter what they do with it, and that point probably came around a series or two back where characters just completely went off the rails and became even more paper thin and more absurd than their comic book counterparts. Just take a look at Morgan and compare him to the pilot for fuck sake. He's a man that's seemingly invincible, walks around with motorbike armour on, carries a staff that can go through people like a knife through butter, and has the skills of Bruce Lee and Shinobi.
  No doubt those are Kirkman's ideas, because he penned similar ones in the comic. Aziekle with his tiger in a magic kingdom? Aye, dead on! As soon as you start introducing shit like that, forget about it. It's going to completely descend into what it is, and what it is is just schlock action.

Further proof - as if it were needed - that characters are EVERYTHING in storytelling. Get them right, and you can have a show about anything, or nothing - get them wrong, and you may as well be making "Transformers"

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Further proof - as if it were needed - that characters are EVERYTHING in storytelling. Get them right, and you can have a show about anything, or nothing - get them wrong, and you may as well be making "Transformers"

Speaking of - watched the latest one the other day - have zero idea what the fuck is going on now

[El Lobo]

Speaking of - watched the latest one the other day - have zero idea what the fuck is going on now

I was gonna put it in the film thread that I watched it and it was absolutely diabolical, but I was embarrassed that people might point and laugh at me for watching it in the first place

[Spongebob Redpants]

I was gonna put it in the film thread that I watched it and it was absolutely diabolical, but I was embarrassed that people might point and laugh at me for watching it in the first place

^^^^^ Ha,ha,ha

 

[Timbo's Goals]

Further proof - as if it were needed - that characters are EVERYTHING in storytelling. Get them right, and you can have a show about anything, or nothing - get them wrong, and you may as well be making "Transformers"

It's fair comment Mongo - and btw kudos also to Macphisto, who I know to have been a long term watcher, for a great and heartfelt synopsis.

That said, there's no way I ever tuned into Walking Dead looking for great characterisation. There's a rake of amazing tv series that provide characters that drive the narrative/plot and make those particular shows so great but for me The Walking Dead has never been one of them no matter that its early days did see some pretty decent stuff in that regard as Macphisto alluded to.

No, for me the core magnet which drew me in was always the journey of an isolated handful of survivors within a zombie infested humanity wilderness, never knowing what lay around the next bend yet still craving to find 'something'. It was that journey of those few with which I found myself identifying right from the off, even, as daft as it now seems, at times feeling a part of, and which cemented my attachment to the show. Moreover, it's the absence of that sense of identification which has seen that attachment eroded these past 3 seasons or so with the place now teeming with legions of other human kind with whom I have found no connection whatsoever.

That erosion of my fondness for the show has of course never lessened the degree of puzzlement I have for the incessant whingeing of some within this thread as they regurgitate year upon year upon year their contempt and derision for the show yet for some unknown reason still watch the fucking thing.

 

PS What the hell ever happened to the inclusion of some of the great songs that were once such a staple feature of the show?

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Enjoying this discussion, I never watched the show but read the comics in TPB from volumes 1-15 odd. Lost interest about halfway through but carried on out of habit.

Kirkman is not a great writer. He had a good concept at a time when zombies perhaps weren't as prevalent as they became in the years that followed.

The setup was nice, but as the book was never about a 'solution' rather than day to day survival, it had nowhere to go once you stopped giving a shit about the characters. And in order to retain the tension, characters had to die, and in the end I realised I didn't care about any of those that were left at all.

I was always sceptical about the show adaptation and its ability to transcend its original source material and from reading this thread over the years, I can now smugly proclaim myself right

[paddysour]

The show felt the need to stick to his plan and the comics too closely.

Good post. This is pretty much the crux of it - and it's not just a recent thing. As a few cracker posts have mentioned, season 1 and 2 were brilliant. But I'll never forget watching the season 2 finale and seeing Michonne for the first time. This hooded ninja type figure, with pet walkers, and a katana - WTF. That was so different to everything we had seen so far. It was just so "comic-booky" for the lack of a better word, while we had been watching high quality drama.

I rationalised it at the time thinking that there are obviously sword experts alive in the world at the moment, it's not realistic to think they would do quite well in a zombie outbreak. But a few seasons later it's revealed Michonne literally just picked up the sword and became an expert.

It's no surprise guys like Shane and Simon have been mentioned as good characters - they are believable. No tigers, no samurai skills, just guys who are part of a group and have reasonable disagreements about the direction the group is taking.

Granted, they may be psychopaths. But it's hard to disagree with Shane that the goody two shoes approach won't work in this world (he almost adapted too quickly, season 4 or 5 Rick would have loved him). And it's hard to disagree with Simon that Rick's group just won't get on board with the saviour plan.

[richmond-red]

"I saved you this turnip". Classic, right off a Syd Barrett album.

[Giovanni]

Ruined a boss episode with that fuckery in the second half.

Spoiler

Were were all the guards. Why was everyone sleeping. Pathetic

[close]

[lionel_messias]

How on Earth did GTA man survive that gun attack when the lights came up? Nobody can shoot in a straight line?


Other than that, a decent episode, but yet another one where Negan is kept away for Scooby Do reasons, basically so that we don't have another fight scene where two stone cold killers can neither hit each other seriously with guns, knives or baseball bats - even when in the same space.

[Original]

Why not just keep it locked? Loads of space between that barbed wire like. 🤔

[JoeCole]

I thought last weeks episode was brilliant (although obviously very far fetched) and this weeks was mediocre. Same as the 2 episodes before, one very good one, then one bang average one. I suppose 1 good then 1 bad is a lot better than just 8 bad like the first half a season, so it's an improvement at least.

One downside is we haven't seen much of the King in these chunk of episodes, his corny monologues are greatly missed.

[Tommy_W]

I've finally kicked it to touch. I feel liberated 

[Macphisto80]

It was OK, and it had some of the stuff I spoke about previously in it that was done relatively well to be effective. I'm talking about the horror stuff. Zombies carried the threat and were actually a bit creepy in scenes, as they should be. Negan's whole plan of tainting the weapons didn't come off as goofy as I was expecting it to, so well done whoever was in charge of that episode, even if it stretched some things a bit too far. Also, Morgan's delusions and hallucinations could be interesting in a sort of American Werewolf in London way, to further emphasis some interesting creepy horror visuals, but I don't think the writers are that imaginative, unfortunately.

[Macphisto80]

I thought last weeks episode was brilliant (although obviously very far fetched) and this weeks was mediocre. Same as the 2 episodes before, one very good one, then one bang average one. I suppose 1 good then 1 bad is a lot better than just 8 bad like the first half a season, so it's an improvement at least.

One downside is we haven't seen much of the King in these chunk of episodes, his corny monologues are greatly missed.

And yet...I smile!


Not really. Ezekiel can get to fuck!

[LallanaInPyjamas]

How on Earth did GTA man survive that gun attack when the lights came up? Nobody can shoot in a straight line?


Other than that, a decent episode, but yet another one where Negan is kept away for Scooby Do reasons, basically so that we don't have another fight scene where two stone cold killers can neither hit each other seriously with guns, knives or baseball bats - even when in the same space.

Eh? He was captured by the garbage lady.

Strong episode this week I felt - agree with Macphisto that it was great for Walkers to finally carry a significant, creepy threat again.

Spoiler

Reckon Dwight kept his arrow clean?

[close]

[lionel_messias]

Eh? He was captured by the garbage lady.

Strong episode this week I felt - agree with Macphisto that it was great for Walkers to finally carry a significant, creepy threat again.

Spoiler

Reckon Dwight kept his arrow clean?

[close]

Well okay, I remember that, Negan had a fight scene in the middle of nowhere and after surviving it JADIS is driving around in a car quite randomly and captures him.

Scooby Doo script-writing for me!

[clinical]

After this shite I want them to finally go back to traveling where they believe they can find a cure of the disease of some sort or something that kills the zombies.

Something other than this gang vs gang nonsense every season.

[Macphisto80]

After this shite I want them to finally go back to traveling where they believe they can find a cure of the disease of some sort or something that kills the zombies.

Something other than this gang vs gang nonsense every season.

Needs more gardening episodes. I miss those.

[Ziltoid]

Is it poor form that when you're watching the 10 Yr old lad and you're hoping zombies will rip him to shreds like the good old zombie movies, proper stomach opening and letting him watch the lower half of his body be dragged away before they munch his face off?

[Macphisto80]

Is it poor form that when you're watching the 10 Yr old lad and you're hoping zombies will rip him to shreds like the good old zombie movies, proper stomach opening and letting him watch the lower half of his body be dragged away before they munch his face off?

Perfectly acceptable.

On the subject of annoying kids, I was watching War of the Worlds recently, and I was wishing that the girl in it would have got stood on by one of the tripods, such was her annoyance factor.

[Giovanni]

MEH.

The negan arc made fuck all sense - only interesting aspect was the helicopter showing up again. Hopefully this takes us away from the group x v group b plot arc we've had for every season.

[Dench57]

Is it poor form that when you're watching the 10 Yr old lad and you're hoping zombies will rip him to shreds like the good old zombie movies, proper stomach opening and letting him watch the lower half of his body be dragged away before they munch his face off?

Is Carl still alive?! I haven't watched this since S2 due to the god awful acting and fucking annoying characters, Carl being the chief offender.

[LFC Boy]

Didn't mind the episode so much, but was very disappointed when Rick killed the guy who just saved his life. Surey it will go against whatever Carl wrote to him.

The helicopter brings back a bit mystery into the story at least.

[SP]

Helicopter will appear in the series finale. We will learn nothing about the occupants, just enough to tease the next series.

[El Lobo]

Its probably Neegan and Rick in the helicopter, from the future.

[SP]

Its probably Neegan and Rick in the helicopter, from the future.

In Carl's dream.

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

Bet it was Carol Decker from the A-Team