Topic: SPOILERS The Chainless Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon Discussion

[B0151?]

Thought this quote from GRR Martin was interesting. Maybe only pertains to the books but defo one for the the Night King's actions during this episode being deliberate.

Spoiler

I think everything that happened during the episode he was in on. We shouldn't underestimate how powerful he is in a number of ways, defo got some abilities on par with Bran (hence him knowing when Bran is there). But here's the quote:

When asked what substance the swords of the Others are made from, Martin answered "Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it."

[close]

I think people should just wait to see what happens to be honest. No need to wreck your head and spoil your enjoyment. Just try and relax.

[oojason]

Goes on to show the fact that it was Martin's genius that he killed off characters in the logical times. If it were left to the channels like HBO, Rob wouldn't have died either. The channels, once they took over, have done what you'd expect them to do - given every major character impenetrable plot armor.

That 'plot armour' you refer to has worked only for some - and only so far...

[Kashinoda]

I find it annoying people discovered the plot armour trope.

It wasn't a thing until season 7, now it's apparently everywhere - seemingly because there's no books to clarify anything so that must be the case?

[Kashinoda]

[Clayton Bigsby]

You can bet on who will sit on the throne.Madness

[Ray K]

It's properly funny that in a show that is total fantasy the thing people are complaining about is where the FUCKING ZOMBIE ARMY got some chains from.

Look, if they even hinted once in 7 seasons that there was a decent sized B&Q north of the wall we'd be happy is all we're saying.

And honestly the thought about the chains did cross my mind this morning 

[Macphisto80]

That's what's happening. The wildlings have very little metal (and by extension, knowledge of metalworking) to hand. They struggle for iron for weaponry, even their principle leaders lack metal armour. The Thenns utilise bronze in their weapons. Bronze - that's how backwards the wildlings are. So to find multiple giant chains of a scale similiar to the boom made for the Blackwater battle is...incongruous, at best.

Spoiler

This is not to mention the Night King had more ice-javelins to hand that he could have used to kill the other dragons. Especially the grounded, stationary, Drogon who at the time carrying the Night King's main opponents. He could have practically won the contest there and then. But he chose not to - maybe we'll find out why, maybe not.

As an action set-piece, the scenes on the rock island in the middle of the frozen lake was great. But as serious drama? Come on. It'll be called nitpicking, but was there really no better way to progress this plotline without having a party moving on foot to capture a wight beyond the wall. Finding a small group of wights led by a White Walker, killing said White Walker and finding all but one (convenient!) wight disintegrating as a consequence. Before being stranded on a rocky island in a frozen lake besieged by the undead army (why didn't the Walkers put ice javelins in all the warm-bloods while they were huddled defenceless on a rock?). But not without having first sent a runner (whose first time it was beyond the wall and should have no knowledge of the geography) to find his way back to base camp on foot to send a raven off to Dragonstone from where rescue can be sent. All the while trapped by the undead army with no significant supplies that can be seen.

I get that the plot demands a dragon die, and it demands a dragon die in such a way that it can be resurrected by the Night King. But I'd like to think good writing precludes having to cram nonsensical guff into your story just to make your plot move to where you want it to.

What I am genuinely looking forward to is the episode where the wight is presented to Cersei, whereupon she shrugs and says "So you brought me a zombie, so what? I know zombies are real, I have one."

[close]

Aye, but the north (of the wall) had a history of men being there before the wildlings existed. Then there were the First Men. It's really one of those minor small details that should be a non issue.

The other point your raise in the spoiler about Drogon is valid. The more you think about it, he could have ended it all there and then, but decided not to. The only viable reason I can come up with is that Viserion  was up in the air causing the damage and heading straight for the Night King with his fire breath, so he opted to defend himself first.

Again, the whole plot point about them even going beyond the wall  for their mission, is one of contrivance so that what happened could happen in order to forward the plot and avoid problems regarding the walkers moving south in later episodes. It's a bit of a McGuffin.

[jillcwhomever]

Look, if they even hinted once in 7 seasons that there was a decent sized B&Q north of the wall we'd be happy is all we're saying.

And honestly the thought about the chains did cross my mind this morning 

The Wildings used chains on the mammoths is it really such a big step to believe they found some? Don't really get this. 

[Redcap]

So we think the point of Bran's character is for him to get stuck in the Night King's body?

Aside from the rather comical series of unfortunate warging fuckups what your theory requires, isn't that just going to be pointless tragedy for its sake? I mean, imagine the episode.. We would spend a solid 20 minutes with Bran, trying to warg into everyone in the past, and explaining the madness of every crazy guy that ever existed, and then, tragically.. Getting stuck inside the Night King If nothing else, it would be a weird and long detour to go down to get the same result.

Also I'm fairly certain Bran can't warg into humans that easily. The only way he could do it to Hodor was because he had an intellectual disability.

[zebenzui]

Aye, but the north (of the wall) had a history of men being there before the wildlings existed. Then there were the First Men. It's really one of those minor small details that should be a non issue.

The other point your raise in the spoiler about Drogon is valid. The more you think about it, he could have ended it all there and then, but decided not to. The only viable reason I can come up with is that Visron was up in the air causing the damage and heading straight for the Night King with his fire breath, so he opted to defend himself first.

He still had plenty of time to finish the job with the other javelins his buddies were holding. The whole chains business could have been averted just by having Viserion hit dry land and dying (or impacting far away from the action) with the reasoning that his body was not burned by the other dragons to prevent reanimation, either because they didn't think to do it in the panic of the moment or because the Night King was present with more javelins to throw which prompted a quick exit.

With that the writers could have avoided the dubiously sourced giant chain or the scuba diving zombies. But they had to have Viserion plunge into the water because rule-of-cool.

[-Willo-]

[spoilers] I feel like Cercei dies next episode. I think she's going to ignore the white walker threat and plot to backstab Jon/Daenerys whilst they meet up to discuss the problems south of the wall and that'll be enough for Jamie to realise enough is enough.

There's been a lot of people throughout this season making a point to tell Jamie how poisonous she is, basically teasing the betrayal [/spoilers]

[Xxavi]

I find it annoying people discovered the plot armour trope.

It wasn't a thing until season 7, now it's apparently everywhere - seemingly because there's no books to clarify anything so that must be the case?

As some mentioned, although this is a fantasy show, it seemed to realistic at times that people could realistically describe the show as an intricate political drama. That all the magic are just a bonus. This stopped being so a while ago though, it has now taken all the characteristics of your regular show in which there are untouchable heroes.

Seriously, we haven't even seen any of the major characters lose anything since forever. Jamie had his hand cut off just like that. We had Jon Snow die and come back, that's all. I mean OK, even if they don't die, the magic of this series is to show some realistic outcomes of war etc. Some plot armor is welcome, but we had way too much of it this season. I really thought that Jon Snow may go on to defeat army of white walkers by himself and Beric. The show is getting there in terms of how unrealistic it is.

[Xxavi]

It's properly funny that in a show that is total fantasy the thing people are complaining about is where the FUCKING ZOMBIE ARMY got some chains from.

You see, you can watch a zombie dragon show and yet still look for some explanations and sense. The show captivated so many viewers not because it is a brainless zombie show, we have The Walking Dead for that.

Look back at the first season. How Bran becomes crippled, how Ned is hurt by Jamie's soldiers, how he is decapitated. You could totally imagine that back in the days, these things happened. Zombie things were something on the side.

By your logic, we shouldn't be at all surprised if we see zombies on tractors driving South. After all, this is a magic zombie show with dragons.

[zebenzui]

Spoiler

I feel like Cercei dies next episode. I think she's going to ignore the white walker threat and plot to backstab Jon/Daenerys whilst they meet up to discuss the problems south of the wall and that'll be enough for Jamie to realise enough is enough.

There's been a lot of people throughout this season making a point to tell Jamie how poisonous she is, basically teasing the betrayal

[close]

Pure Speculation - Not Actual Spoilers

I think maybe that's where they'll go with it. I'm not too sure how they could make that work seamlessly. I feel the writers missed a trick and they could have had Jaime taken prisoner by Daenarys (and maybe not done the burning the Tarlys alive thing - which made her far too psycho to then tear up and say she hopes she deserves Jon's fealty on the boat) and brought north by Jon to witness the army of the dead himself. He would then be released (maybe run into Brienne along the way to rediscover his path of redemption that she had set him on before the writers decided to fuck that off into the tall grass) and fail to convince Cersei of the threat. THEN he would have strong motivation to remove her when he discovers her plan to betray the anti-dead alliance.

As it stands I don't think bringing one zombie into King's Landing should convince anyone that there's a massive army of the dead beyond the wall. Who's to say there's more of them? Who's to say it came from beyond the wall - as opposed to some weird shithole in Essos? Why should Jaime be convinced enough to murder Cersei on the basis of evidence that had no effect on her?

[close]

In many fantazy worlds zombies don't need to breath (death does that to them) and them walking underwater has been used in quite a lot of those genres. And in this fantazy world, they are controlled.  So not that tough to grasp when dwelling in, again, a fantazy world that they could use whatever was preaented to them for the specific use that was done in this.

You're right in that some zombies could have been sacrificed to attach the chains. But I still stand by the point that these small issues are easily avoided and are unnecessary stretches of the imagination.

[JD.]

Bit weird how Jon just randomly called her Dany as if he has been sitting at home watching Game of Thrones.

[voodoo ray]

what's wrong with the dead having a swim? their lack of needing to breathe makes them pretty good candidates for it.

[JD.]

I think the one major difference between now and what it used to be like, is that they just sort of skip over a lot now.

One minute we are seeing Jon being drowned in ice water by wights. The next he's just fine. How did he get out? Just because he's Jon Snow isn't good enough.

I still LOVE the show and forgive it, but still, it's not a big change to make to sort it.

[The G in Gerrard]

One minute we are seeing Jon being drowned in ice water by wights. The next he's just fine. How did he get out? Just because he's Jon Snow isn't good enough.

Eh? You mean the bit where he dragged himself out of the hole wasn't enough?

[JD.]

Eh? You mean the bit where he dragged himself out of the hole wasn't enough?

How did he get to the hole? He was being dragged under by the wights?

[S]

It's properly funny that in a show that is total fantasy the thing people are complaining about is where the FUCKING ZOMBIE ARMY got some chains from.

[OsirisMVZ]

They can't kill every single person off. When the series ends, 'bittersweet' or whatever, there still has to be some moments or endings for characters that are happy. Not every single POV left alive will be bittersweet or sad. Arya & Gendry, Tormund and Brienne, maybe even Brienne & Jaime which looked star-crossed for the first year or two that they were together.

Yes I'm slightly into the shipping

[Shepnois]

One minute we are seeing Jon being drowned in ice water by wights. The next he's just fine. How did he get out? Just because he's Jon Snow isn't good enough.

He's the prince that was promised, Jon is pretty much invincible until he fulfills his destiny.

[Shepnois]

Enjoyed the last episode, I do have some concerns with this plan that will stretch over the final 2 episodes of this season. Cersei wont care about some wight being presented to her, yeah she might pretend to help our heroes but she will stab them in the back we all know this, the shows characters should know this too. It's all been a ploy just to get all the major characters into one place at the same, there must've been a better way? I guess GRRM is struggling to work that all out himself.

Dany should've flown her 3 dragons to Kings Landing and taken out the red keep and the other important buildings, wiped out Cersei and her supporters and be done with it. Then they could've got on with preparing for The Nights King with 3 dragons and a bigger army. The Ayra & Sansa stuff was daft too, creating drama for dramas sake where there shouldnt be any. Again the episode had some great set pieces and I still enjoyed it but D&D are starting to rush things and are struggling without any new book content to go on.

[OsirisMVZ]

Enjoyed the last episode, I do have some concerns with this plan that will stretch over the final 2 episodes of this season. Cersei wont care about some wight being presented to her, yeah she might pretend to help our heroes but she will stab them in the back we all know this, the shows characters should know this too. It's all been a ploy just to get all the major characters into one place at the same, there must've been to be a better way? I guess GRRM is struggling to work that all out himself.

Dany should've flown her 3 dragons to Kings Landing and taken out the red keep and the other important buildings, wiped out Cersei and her supporters and be done with it. Then they could've got on with preparing for The Nights King with 3 dragons and a bigger army. The Ayra & Sansa stuff was daft too, creating drama for dramas sake where there shouldnt be any. Again the episode had some great set pieces and I still enjoyed it but D&D are starting to rush things and are struggling without any new book content to go on.

Spoiler

Arya and Sansa are having a Ultimate Marvel team-up, they have to fight each other before they can understand each other. However they have reached the point of understanding in this episode, with Arya turning the dagger over to Sansa to reveal who their real enemy is, its owner.

[close]

[oojason]

I think the one major difference between now and what it used to be like, is that they just sort of skip over a lot now.

One minute we are seeing Jon being drowned in ice water by wights. The next he's just fine. How did he get out? Just because he's Jon Snow isn't good enough.

I still LOVE the show and forgive it, but still, it's not a big change to make to sort it.

Sorry JD - but Jon Snow wasn't 'just fine' after emerging from the ice hole - I can only suggest to re-watch it again in case you missed him... slowly walking and shivering so much he could barely raise his sword to the oncoming wights, Benjen sacrificing himself to save him - he can hardly talk to Benjen he is so cold  (and Jon just about reaching the Wall), and then suffering from the effects of the cold (hypothermia or near-on?) when he is on the boat and they are changing out his wet clothes, and keeping him as warm as they can, and then he needs to rest...

Dany may do a bit to keep him warm too...

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

good episode but i had some issues

Spoiler

was there a good reason the wights just didn't obliterate the guys from the start?  and they only attacked once the hound got bored and threw a rock at them? conveniently, dany arrived on time.

2nd issue. There is 0 chance jon doesn't die of hypothermia if we're being realistic.

3rd. a fucking dragon died - fuck that

4th even tho arya has matured she seems a bit thick in her first scene with sansa. sansa thought they were sending ned to the wall, not beheading him. she tries to explain that but arya's having none of it ... and littlefinger then hanging around and doing his thing. really don't want it to be this preicatble.

5th thoros dies. i loved that guy (though, mainly because of the books) and it was such a shit send off. how the fuck he died if jon survived coming out from the lake i don't know

i liked the group going north and all that, and some of the conversations (thoros with jorah, the hound and tormund) but the whole expedition was so much risk for not enough reward.

[close]

[Redcap]

I think there are some real issues with the show, particularly when it comes to certain subplots and character motivations (ask jooney for a rundown - his criticisms are generally on the money), but plot armour is not one of them.

"Realism" is not a reason to kill characters. Characters die because the logic of the story and their character arc demands it. Not because there's a formula for how many characters must die, based on how dangerous a particular scenario they're in. That is an utterly bizarre criticism. The Game of Thrones is not a Game of Actuarial Tables. You will have so much more fun not obsessing over specific random details such as these.

Some of the thing we're seeing on screen are absolutely glorious. As good as fantasy has ever looked on screen, and maybe as good as it will ever look. Enjoy it for what it is.

[oojason]

good episode but i had some issues

Spoiler

was there a good reason the wights just didn't obliterate the guys from the start?  and they only attacked once the hound got bored and threw a rock at them? conveniently, dany arrived on time.

2nd issue. There is 0 chance jon doesn't die of hypothermia if we're being realistic.

3rd. a fucking dragon died - fuck that

4th even tho arya has matured she seems a bit thick in her first scene with sansa. sansa thought they were sending ned to the wall, not beheading him. she tries to explain that but arya's having none of it ... and littlefinger then hanging around and doing his thing. really don't want it to be this preicatble.

5th thoros dies. i loved that guy (though, mainly because of the books) and it was such a shit send off. how the fuck he died if jon survived coming out from the lake i don't know

i liked the group going north and all that, and some of the conversations (thoros with jorah, the hound and tormund) but the whole expedition was so much risk for not enough reward.

[close]

Spoiler

Your 1st issue is 'answered' by that a lot of wights died when they approached the rock island - going through the ice and into the water - so they stopped - they had the team surrounded and likely didn't know any help was coming... it wasn't until The Hound started throwing rocks poorly at them later on that the wights realised that the water had frozen over again and they could now reach the rock island - albeit tentatively at first...

the 2nd issue - is that he very nearly did - and the episode showed several scenes of him suffering him from it - as well as the efforts made to help him on the boat

the 3rd issue - was always likely that they could be taken down during action... it is GOT afterall and they like an emotional or surprising death when they can...

the 4th issue is ongoing - so it's a little difficult to know where it will go /end...

the 5th issues - Thoros died of wounds from a bear mauling - and then being in the cold with no medical attention (milk of the poppy / magic sponge?) likely didn't help his injuries...

[close]

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Spoiler

Your 1st issue is 'answered' by that a lot of wights died when they approached the rock island - going through the ice and into the water - it wasn't until The Hound started throwing rocks poorly at them later on that the wights realised that the water had frozen over again and they could now reach the rock island - albeit tentatively at first...

[close]

Spoiler

to be honest, i didn't think they were that clever. fair enough on that one, if you're right

3rd was more tongue in cheek - was just gutted to see a dragon wiped out. thoros, yeah the bear thing, true, but he was one of my favourite minor characters from the books, so just annoyed to see him go. Jon surviving that tho is a bit of plot armour for me tho.

couple more things. why did bejen feel the need to sacrifice himself. "there's no time" - no time for what? just ride on the horse with jon

also, I really think Dany could have done more damage with her dragon.

[close]

Anyway, good stuff

Spoiler

the fight scenes were great, even if it did remind me too much of the walking dead. was begging someone to rescue tormund.

the dany and jon scene at the end was brilliant. when she sees his stab scars

the convos north of the wall were priceless.

arya putting sansa in her place, even if it's for the wrong reasons.

[close]

[oojason]

Spoiler

to be honest, i didn't think they were that clever. fair enough on that one, if you're right

3rd was more tongue in cheek - was just gutted to see a dragon wiped out. thoros, yeah the bear thing, true, but he was one of my favourite minor characters from the books, so just annoyed to see him go. Jon surviving that tho is a bit of plot armour for me tho.

couple more things. why did bejen feel the need to sacrifice himself. "there's no time" - no time for what? just ride on the horse with jon

also, I really think Dany could have done more damage with her dragon.

[close]

Anyway, good stuff

Spoiler

the fight scenes were great, even if it did remind me too much of the walking dead. was begging someone to rescue tormund.

the dany and jon scene at the end was brilliant. when she sees his stab scars

the convos north of the wall were priceless.

arya putting sansa in her place, even if it's for the wrong reasons.

[close]

Spoiler

Yeah - gutting about Thoros - one my favourite characters too. The bald top-knotted c*nt!

Re the Benjen 'there's no time' sacrifice - adding 200lbs of Benjen to that horse + Jon likely means it won't get to the Wall at all (if you look at the episode again the horse is on it's last legs when it reaches The Wall) - or if it does reach the Wall with the pair of them on it, it will be a lot slower journey due to the added weight and Jon will likely be dead from hypothermia.

Plus, it gave Benjen a chance to got out like a hero - tohugh it's a shame we didn't see a bit more of him.

[close]

[stoopid yank]

Read/ thought of some theories that may explain some of the issues/ conundrums with this episode. Curious what you guys may think

Spoiler

On the premise the night king has some sort magical 6th sense, esp/ future view/ warg ability similar to Bran then:

1. He knew they were coming and the whole set up was a trap to catch a dragon.
2. The bear was sent to kill the priest/healer for a reason/trap
3. The captured wight was different than the others that were linked to the slain walker for a reason/trap
4. They don't cross the frozen pond/lake because they are waiting on the dragons. The walkers/king could have easily frozen the lake for all to cross and killed them all earlier if he had wanted to.
5. The spears were pre made and ready for purpose to kill dragons.
6. The chains were on hand and planned to subdue/ capture/raise a dragon. Doesn't matter where they came from. What matters is they had them on hand because they preplanned to have them on hand.

So - biggest question/theory - why does night king need a dragon?

He needs one to melt and cross the wall. That's why they (night king/dead army) have been wandering the north for so long. They cant cross otherwise, ie same magic that keeps Benjen from crossing. Somehow dragonfire overcomes this magic barrier/spell.

 

[close]

[Redcap]

I find all the rationalising of poor plotting/attention to detail hilarious.

It's not because the plot has holes guys.. it's because the Night King sees all!

Not that I necessarily disagree with the theory that the Night King might be a greenseer, but trying to make all the bits and pieces fit into the plot is also quite silly.

Here's how I think the final season plays out.  I could be completely off the mark but here goes...

Spoiler

First off I'm starting to get pretty sold on theories about Bran being the Night King.  Or more specifically, Bran going back in time and warging into the guy who we saw the Children of the Forest turn into the Night King.  Bran has been warned by the previous three eyed raven about getting 'stuck' when travelling back in time, and I think he gets stuck as the Night King for the thousands of years leading up to the present events.

I think in the final season the Night King will really start kicking arse and clearly be winning the war.  That will make Bran go back in time to try and kill him before he gets so powerful (when he didn't have an ice dragon, such a huge army, more white walkers etc).

This first attempt will be contacting the Mad King Aerys, who still had control of the seven kingdoms, and could go north of the wall to 'burn' him (leading to him going crazy and wanting to burn King's Landing instead).

When this doesn't work and things get more desperate, he decides to go back to convince the Children of the Forest never to create the Night King.  He controls the human pre-Night King to plead with them, but they don't listen and turn him anyway, leading to a few thousand years of Bran being trapped.

As for the bittersweet ending George R.R. Martin talks about, I think that Jon (Azor Ahai) learns that Bran = Night King and that Bran must be killed for the Night King to die (I imagine a scene where Valyrian steel or dragon fire has no effect on the Night King because Bran is alive).  Jon could find out by Bran taking him back in time as well, or Jon could be shown it in the fire by the Lord of Light.

In true Ned Stark fashion (he who passes the sentence swings the sword), Jon kills Bran to end the war...

[close]

Also, are you reddit user turm0il26 by any chance, mate? Because you both seem to have arrived at similar theories. 

"Bran goes back all the way to where the Night king was created, to warg into the human that later is going to become the Night king. He wargs into him to instead stop the 'dragonglass into the heart'-event from happening. Only he doesn't think of that the children of the forest won't recognise him from the future, and that they at that point are in war with the first men (he is gagged because of all the weird future-talk). When he realised he failed again, he tries to go back in the current timeline, but can't because he's too deep into the past and stayed too long ('it is beautiful beneath the sea, stay too long and you drown'). From here Bran gets stuck in the past (exactly as Brynden and Jojen warned him not to) and becomes the Night King."

I also find the idea that with the power to warg into absolutely anything, Bran chose to warg into not one of the children of the forest.. but the guy he knew the children were going to turn into the Night King somewhat amusing. I mean, you know the guy is going to be turned into the Night King and your play is to use that guy to tell the children that you're going to turn into an omnipotent killing machine that threatens the existence of all man/children kind. Word?

[Trada]

Watched the episode again it was strange that during the battle of the rock, it seemed the White walkers were really more interested in trying to free their mate.

[Redcap]

Watched the episode again it was strange that during the battle of the rock, it seemed the White walkers were really more interested in trying to free their mate.

Yes. That was rather stupid, to say the least.

[KillieRed]

At least we know why the army of the dead are taking so long to come south - it`s the weight of those massive chains slowing them down.

What is the breath-weapon of a Dracolich anyway? Don`t think it should be fire, undead don`t like the fire...

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

At least we know why the army of the dead are taking so long to come south - it`s the weight of those massive chains slowing them down.

What is the breath-weapon of a Dracolich anyway? Don`t think it should be fire, undead don`t like the fire...

I assumed it would be the ice equivalent. And then using an ice dragon to melt ice seems implausible to me.

[carling]

So we think the point of Bran's character is for him to get stuck in the Night King's body?

Aside from the rather comical series of unfortunate warging fuckups what your theory requires, isn't that just going to be pointless tragedy for its sake? I mean, imagine the episode.. We would spend a solid 20 minutes with Bran, trying to warg into everyone in the past, and explaining the madness of every crazy guy that ever existed, and then, tragically.. Getting stuck inside the Night King If nothing else, it would be a weird and long detour to go down to get the same result.

Also I'm fairly certain Bran can't warg into humans that easily. The only way he could do it to Hodor was because he had an intellectual disability.

I wouldn't say pointless ... I think the Night King must have something to do with one of the great houses?  I can't imagine that he was just some unlucky random dude the Children of the Forest picked up and that's his whole back story...

Also, they have spent enough time building up how Bran can affect the past what with young Ned turning around, Hodor, the NK grabbing and 'marking' him.  Surely there's something 'big' left for him to do with that ability?  Same principle with Beric being revived; that device was always going to lead to something bigger in the future.

I'm not 100% sold on the idea, but we know that GRRM relayed to the TV show producers how things would end up.  I believe there's got to be one huge twist left, something epic that truly shocks us ... and some huge tragedy before the world is 'saved'.  I don't think it's going to be a Hollywood show from here on out with Jon defeating the NK on a dragon or something like that. And right now the Bran thing is the best idea I've seen out there.  I can't wait to be honest ... I think I'll need help after next week's episode ends

[clinical]

Could it be that he went after Viserion and not Drogon simply because Viserion was flying and the Drogon wasn't meaning he could protect himself more. Didn't he hit him just under the wing?


Also the night king looks like Bran. Look at the nose.


Also Viserion is no normal Wight he was touched by the Night King like he did with the babies. This dragon isn't going to be taken down by fire or usual methods. They will need a dragon glass spear, and Bronn to use the huge crossbow

[carling]

I find all the rationalising of poor plotting/attention to detail hilarious.

It's not because the plot has holes guys.. it's because the Night King sees all!

Not that I necessarily disagree with the theory that the Night King might be a greenseer, but trying to make all the bits and pieces fit into the plot is also quite silly.

Also, are you reddit user turm0il26 by any chance, mate? Because you both seem to have arrived at similar theories. 

"Bran goes back all the way to where the Night king was created, to warg into the human that later is going to become the Night king. He wargs into him to instead stop the 'dragonglass into the heart'-event from happening. Only he doesn't think of that the children of the forest won't recognise him from the future, and that they at that point are in war with the first men (he is gagged because of all the weird future-talk). When he realised he failed again, he tries to go back in the current timeline, but can't because he's too deep into the past and stayed too long ('it is beautiful beneath the sea, stay too long and you drown'). From here Bran gets stuck in the past (exactly as Brynden and Jojen warned him not to) and becomes the Night King."

I also find the idea that with the power to warg into absolutely anything, Bran chose to warg into not one of the children of the forest.. but the guy he knew the children were going to turn into the Night King somewhat amusing. I mean, you know the guy is going to be turned into the Night King and your play is to use that guy to tell the children that you're going to turn into an omnipotent killing machine that threatens the existence of all man/children kind. Word?

Hey, my first sentence was "I'm starting to get pretty sold on theories about Bran being the Night King"

I didn't claim to make the Bran thing up.  And that reddit guy is getting a lot of stick for plagiarising.  It's mainly youtube I've been on (sad I know), and the Bran thing is really making sense to me.

About your points, we know Bran is still getting to grips with his powers.  He can't see everything yet, but he already knows about human NK and the Children of the Forest creating him.  When the whole of Westeros is getting murdered by the army of the dead, everyone around him is dying and it seems that him and Jon will be next, then it's possible he goes back to that moment or just before. 

Maybe they have the initial idea of speaking to the Children and telling them not to do what they are about to do.  Maybe he can't speak or warg into them because of their own magical powers, maybe they don't listen or resist him.  He's then stood there in the past (maybe with Jon like when he was with the 3 eyed raven when they went back), and the choice is go back to be killed by a seemingly invincible Night King, or warg into him right here and see if he can stop him.  At that point Jon is thrown back to the present, and sees Bran still lying there with his warg eyes.

[Xabi Gerrard]

I wouldn't say pointless ... I think the Night King must have something to do with one of the great houses?  I can't imagine that he was just some unlucky random dude the Children of the Forest picked up and that's his whole back story...

The guy who was turned into the Night King was one of the First Men back when they were fighting the Children of the Forest. This would have been long before the great houses were established, which I think happened thousands of years later after the Andals arrived in Westeros.