Topic: offer made?

[ttnbd]

both really.  I'd imagine it'll get built upto the 73,000 spec, but with only 60,000 allowed in (or 60,000 seats) until the second planning permission is granted.

[HarryLabrador]

what forum or can you post details.

Welcome to the forum, Peter. Having read your first post, I am sure many of us are delighted to have on board an accountant who shares similar beliefs and equal measure of utter distate towards our 2 cowboys.

I personally believe H&G do not have the funds to build the stadium. If they have, then it defies all logic, and therefore everything, all their actions which were globally splashed in the media have all been wrongly reported. Hicks' several trips to London and Dubai in his quests to raise finance and even to sell his shares it was reported as well, all to no avail. Hicks' continued failed attempts at raising finance to buy Gillett's shares, even his approach to hedge funders all failed. His big project across the pond, glorypark, yet again failing to generate financial backing, so has now been put on the back burner, again. And all this in the midst of the global credit crunch?

I am going blue in the face  asking the same question over and over again. Where is the money coming from? My response to that question, they are both full of sh1t.

[peterb17]

thanks for the welcome... i am like you i can't for the life of me imagine that if they had the money for the stadium that they wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops......also why would they give up £9m of NWDA.

As a slight aside I know that the administration areas of both the Northwest Development Agency and the European Development Fund are combining this year and consequently they are becoming even stricter (and they were stringent to sa ythe least)  on the release of any funds due to the fact that the people still in post when the merger occurs will not want to carry the can for decisions made by others they did not particularly agree with.

So to be honest I know some people believe that the markets aren't as bad as made out and some who think they are worse but personally i think if they definitely lose out on the £9M NWDA money I think that will be a more relaible indicator to say their funding is almost certainly non existent.

Pray for the day they are gone as i will drink Kenny, vauxhall rd and London Rd dry.

[jonnygeeart]

apparently they haven't been able to satisfy the NWDA that the funds are in place for the stadium so there's every chance

[lfctitch]

apparently they haven't been able to satisfy the NWDA that the funds are in place for the stadium so there's every chance

But if H and G secure financing how important would that £9 million be?

[jonnygeeart]

who knows but it could make up the difference in signing the likes of aguero so i would say f.important and if it isnt important to them thats another reason to add to the already long list of reasons why t&t should fuck off

[ttnbd]

Out of curiosity, what is position on Hicks & Gillet?

I've always thought your posts leaned towards being in favour of the Americans, but thats justs my interpretation as i've never read anything from you that explicitly goes one way or the other (probably the best option in these confusing times!)

I've said before I refuse to put my position on these boards.  I've seen too many people let emotion get in the way of things such that it stops some intelligent discussions taking place.

The majority of what I put regarding the possible future of the club will be the same whoever the owners are.  To maximise the financial competitiveness of the club the stadium has to be built.  If any owner wants to make money out of the club then the stadium needs to be built and other revenue streams need to be "exploited" (not the greatest word but it is apt unfortunately).

I think most people are in agreement that there are areas of the club that need improving to realise financial potential.  Because of the issues with the owners over the last 8 months there has been alot of scepticism about various things the club have done.  Had the issues not happened then there wouldn't be as much moaning.  For most things people would more or less ignored it as normal, although for others (ie the membership issue) grievances would still have been aired.

But because of that hostility in place any little thing is being picked up on and turned.

I've tried to explain what has happened to the club financially and what could happen, and sometimes what needs to happen, for the club to pay off, at minimum the stadium debt, and have increased transfer funds.

[No666]

Because of the issues with the owners over the last 8 months there has been alot of scepticism about various things the club have done.  Had the issues not happened then there wouldn't be as much moaning.  For most things people would more or less ignored it as normal, although for others (ie the membership issue) grievances would still have been aired.

But because of that hostility in place any little thing is being picked up on and turned.

But takeaway the 'issues' to do with treatment of Rafa, shooting mouth off in public etc, pretend they never happened, and I personally would still be watching these owners like a hawk (to quote an admonition in a Guardian article at their arrival)- and for two reasons: the level of debt on the club; whether they see success as central to their business model. I resent handing over my hard-earned money to service a debt that is not to do with a] purchase of players or b] improving club by other means. I have read your replies to questions here, and appreciate you taking the trouble to answer them, but it's great that there is now on this thread a potential second opinion, as it were. You are quite sanguine about, for example, dropping out of the CL for a year. I am not suggesting that this is because you are pro-owner  but I don't know if you are an optimistic kind of a bloke. (& personally speaking, I really hope you are right and it wouldn't be crucial.) Certainly, Hicks started off with the Rangers buying an expensive player and wanting success but it all went tits up v quickly and since then they've bumbled along in mediocrity. His record as a sports owner is, after all, all we've got to go on. (& he is happy enough to big that reputation up when it suits him.) I am not trying to sound hostile to you here. I'm just trying to put across the deep rooted worries a number of us Off the Pitch regulars seem to share; when you call it 'moaning' it sounds pretty belittling.

[west_london_red]

But takeaway the 'issues' to do with treatment of Rafa, shooting mouth off in public etc, pretend they never happened, and I personally would still be watching these owners like a hawk (to quote an admonition in a Guardian article at their arrival)- and for two reasons: the level of debt on the club; whether they see success as central to their business model. I resent handing over my hard-earned money to service a debt that is not to do with a] purchase of players or b] improving club by other means. I have read your replies to questions here, and appreciate you taking the trouble to answer them, but it's great that there is now on this thread a potential second opinion, as it were. You are quite sanguine about, for example, dropping out of the CL for a year. I am not suggesting that this is because you are pro-owner  but I don't know if you are an optimistic kind of a bloke. (& personally speaking, I really hope you are right and it wouldn't be crucial.) Certainly, Hicks started off with the Rangers buying an expensive player and wanting success but it all went tits up v quickly and since then they've bumbled along in mediocrity. His record as a sports owner is, after all, all we've got to go on. (& he is happy enough to big that reputation up when it suits him.) I am not trying to sound hostile to you here. I'm just trying to put across the deep rooted worries a number of us Off the Pitch regulars seem to share; when you call it 'moaning' it sounds pretty belittling.

Yeah, the use of the word "moaning" was quite insultative considering that a large percentage (if not a majority) of people on this board share those same moans. The rest of what you said was spot on. This is a forum, people are supposed to express their opinions wheather they are based on fact or instinct. And plenty of these 'moans' such the track records of the owners other clubs are based purely on fact.

[LiverBirdKop]

Realistically, how long could G&H keep delaying the major stadium works should they not have the ££ in place?

[west_london_red]

Realistically, how long could G&H keep delaying the major stadium works should they not have the ££ in place?

They could start work with the £60 million they borrowed as part of the last re-financing. The intresting question is will they start the actual constrution before the bigger loan for the stadium is in place? if they did, it would be a very risky move, but i certainly wouldnt rule it out.

Anything is possible with these two dick heads around.

[Met]

Damnit, they're still clinging on to Liverpool like a bitch to a wallet. Wish they would just let go and never be heard from again.....

[Liverbird 2010]

I bore the arse off meself with all the moaning I do about them.

[Met]

I actually had to explain to a fellow Liverpoolfan yesterday why I don't like G&H.....

His crown argument: "You got Torres"

[RedJam70]

Parry recently said at a meeting involving Staff at the Academy,that the issue of Ownership will be resolved by the end of August and we'll be able to compete with Chelsea and the Mancs,read into that what you will,if Parry told me tomorrow was  Tuesday i wouldn't believe him,but i kid you not,that's the GOSPEL TRUTH!!!!!

It has been on the go the whole time. One problem is that Dubai Holdings want a different stadium design so the deal could fell through if the deal isn't done before they start to build on the stadium itself. The work that is being done now wouldn't stop them changing it to a different design.

Would that tie in together? Aren't they supposed to be starting construction proper of the stadium in Sept? If DIC don't want the new stadium then they'd back out for good in September so the ownership situation would be sorted out by the end of August or thereabouts like Parry said. I suppose if they can't sort out financing before Sept for the stadium they may be forced to sell but I thought they'd given themselves till the end of the year to get the financing.

Just musing out loud really, i suppose, just looking for reasons for optimism in all this.

[Tsar Kastik]

Yeah, the use of the word "moaning" was quite insultative considering that a large percentage (if not a majority) of people on this board share those same moans. The rest of what you said was spot on. This is a forum, people are supposed to express their opinions wheather they are based on fact or instinct. And plenty of these 'moans' such the track records of the owners other clubs are based purely on fact.

One of the owners other clubs doesn't seem to be a 'cash cow' at the moment;

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/072808dnsporangersattend.43a5621.html

[No666]

One of the owners other clubs doesn't seem to be a 'cash cow' at the moment;

Why does every bit of bad news for Tom Hicks make the day a little brighter? Oh well, it makes for an alternative to moaning...   

[eljazzen]

ttnbd:

Do you still think everything will go ahead as planned if Hicks and Gillett looses out on the money from NWDA (9 mill I think) and the EU money as well?

[ttnbd]

ttnbd:

Do you still think everything will go ahead as planned if Hicks and Gillett looses out on the money from NWDA (9 mill I think) and the EU money as well?

I wouldn't see why not.  Just to point out though, it isn't the club applying for the funds, it is Liverpool City Council.  But there is a covenant in place that were the stadium not to go ahead then the club covers the outlay by the council.  I think the total outlay, were the stadium not to go ahead, would be £20m based on matched funding.

But I have to ask, why are the NWDA threatening to take away funding for regeneration of an area that desperately needs it?  What do those residents in the anfield/breckfield areas who post on here think about that?  The NWDA are effectively saying they will only help regenerate the area if a £300m+ stadium is built.  Why haven't the council been pushing to get the area the regeneration it needs?

The £9m is supposed to be matched funding.  So they put £9m in and a commercial partner (ie LFC) puts £9m in.  So why are the NWDA saying that the stadium MUST go ahead for the area to get the money?  Surely all LFC would need to do is put in their £9m?  The NWDA have been delaying the decision of this funding for years, it took them nearly 2 years to read the original application.

[oojason]

seems the NWDA are more interested in trying to look like  powerful and getting their name into the media than actually benefitting the people in the areas they are mean to be helping.


Does anyone know if or what they've done in and around the Anfield area over the years?

[Armin]

But I have to ask, why are the NWDA threatening to take away funding for regeneration of an area that desperately needs it?  What do those residents in the anfield/breckfield areas who post on here think about that?  The NWDA are effectively saying they will only help regenerate the area if a £300m+ stadium is built.  Why haven't the council been pushing to get the area the regeneration it needs?

The £9m is supposed to be matched funding.  So they put £9m in and a commercial partner (ie LFC) puts £9m in.  So why are the NWDA saying that the stadium MUST go ahead for the area to get the money?  Surely all LFC would need to do is put in their £9m?  The NWDA have been delaying the decision of this funding for years, it took them nearly 2 years to read the original application.

They probably need the stadium going ahead to justify targeting the money at that area. If it's being spent on infratructure etc it's only the stadium being there that justifies it. No stadium then maybe the money could be better spent elsewhere.

[west_london_red]

One of the owners other clubs doesn't seem to be a 'cash cow' at the moment;

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/072808dnsporangersattend.43a5621.html

Excellent news.

[guyko21]

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, G&H are being mercifully quiet and we're spending some decent cash this summer, with potentially more to follow.  I know we've recouped a fair bit and we made good money again from the European Cup, but something feels a bit different somehow. 

With the owners providing no evidence of means to develop the stadium, I'm wondering what's going on behind the scenes.  The club seems to be a happier place ... of course I'm hoping it's the end for G&H, which perhaps explains a feeling of renewed optimism.   

[4H_Poker]

Excellent news.

It makes no difference whether the Rangers do well or not.
Hicks doesn't transfer money between his sports franchises.
Despite what people think.
In fact it was very unusual that he swapped some of the higher ups between the Rangers and the Stars.
Each franchise is treated financially separately.
Hopefully you read the whole article also.
the cost of going to a game in Arlington is around $100 .. providing you don't drink too much ... but with the Texas heat, and the cost of soda ... you're gonna go past $100 easy.
If I take my family to a game, it costs me $40 in gas, + $20 parking, plus cost of tickets ......, and then spend $50 - $75 once I'm in there ?
I've been once this year ........ and that's all I can afford for now.
gas @ $4 a gallon ... food prices have doubled, tripled on some things ... people aren't spending here.
Add to that ... the Rangers, (and baseball in general), as well as the Stars, (and the NHL) have not recovered from their respective strikes/lockouts.
I used to follow the Rangers quite closely ... even scoring the game when watching on TV !
Their strike put me, and a number of people off, and they've never recovered fully from it.
Anyway .. back on topic ... Hicks doesn't revenue share between the teams, so the Rangers issues have no impact on LFC.

[golly51]

gas @ $4 a gallon . Is that all

[Oingy Boingy]

gas @ $4 a gallon . Is that all

was thinking that so just to annoy myself i checked we pay approx $11 a gallon  whinging yanks

[Vintage Nerd]

theres still no sign of any movement on stanley park and i go pass it nearly every day.

i heard a rumour on the bus the other day that made me laugh, some people chat crap about liverpools finnances.
i dont believe the ground will happen, whilst the americans are still at the club, but we`ll wait and see.

[TSC]

I wouldn't see why not.  Just to point out though, it isn't the club applying for the funds, it is Liverpool City Council.  But there is a covenant in place that were the stadium not to go ahead then the club covers the outlay by the council.  I think the total outlay, were the stadium not to go ahead, would be £20m based on matched funding.

But I have to ask, why are the NWDA threatening to take away funding for regeneration of an area that desperately needs it?  What do those residents in the anfield/breckfield areas who post on here think about that?  The NWDA are effectively saying they will only help regenerate the area if a £300m+ stadium is built.  Why haven't the council been pushing to get the area the regeneration it needs?

The £9m is supposed to be matched funding.  So they put £9m in and a commercial partner (ie LFC) puts £9m in.  So why are the NWDA saying that the stadium MUST go ahead for the area to get the money?  Surely all LFC would need to do is put in their £9m?  The NWDA have been delaying the decision of this funding for years, it took them nearly 2 years to read the original application.

Without the stadium NWDA can't throw money at specific regen projects.  It would be up to Liverpool CC to pay for general regen in one of it's wards.  For example other areas are being regenerated around Liverpool, but individual councils have to find the funding from whatever means, eg Knowsley, Sefton, etc.  Why should the NWDA show favouritism to a Liverpool CC ward?  It's always only been available on the basis that the stadium would go ahead.

[ttnbd]

But the money is provided on a matched funding basis, ie the NWDA puts up £9m and a partner puts up £9m.  If either LFC or LCC can guarantee that £9m will be put forward why would it matter to the NWDA if the stadium went ahead?  The £350m for the stadium would be the stadium itself and possibly anfield plaza.  It won't be including the areas the NWDA money is used for, just like the Objective 1 money.

[Tsar Kastik]

4H_Poker, I wasn't implying that Hicks does transfer cash from one 'franchise' to another. My thinking was that if his cash flow from the Rangers was less than he hoped then it would impact on him adversely somehow. Maybe the banks he owes to, or hopes to borrow more from, think it makes a difference if the Rangers do well or not....just maybe.
On a side note; I don't have any sympathy for the fella in the article, who has to travel 33 miles to a game, paying $4 a gallon for 'gas', when he drives a vehicle that does 15mpg.

[Tyler Durden]

4H_Poker, I wasn't implying that Hicks does transfer cash from one 'franchise' to another. My thinking was that if his cash flow from the Rangers was less than he hoped then it would impact on him adversely somehow. Maybe the banks he owes to, or hopes to borrow more from, think it makes a difference if the Rangers do well or not....just maybe.
On a side note; I don't have any sympathy for the fella in the article, who has to travel 33 miles to a game, paying $4 a gallon for 'gas', when he drives a vehicle that does 15mpg.

He must have a fucking Hummer or something!

[Tsar Kastik]

He must have a fucking Hummer or something!

It's a Dodge pick-up apparently. But it begs the question - if he's bothered about the price of 'gas', then why not get a vehicle that can effectively halve the price of 'gas' in one go i.e. one that does 30 mpg.

[jonnygeeart]

yanks just like fuckin things up its in their dna.Their national motto should read  oh look at me i'm billy big bollocks its just a shame their average iq is zero.You may say that there is a few smart ones but that is outweighed by the majority who only managed  a minus score.This is not a xenophobic opinion the data is freely available in the new scientist and the Nat.Geographic.The only people to score lower in the tests were moores and parry and they only got one question wrong, who should you sell LFC to dubai or twit&twat

[guyko21]

yanks just like fuckin things up its in their dna.Their national motto should read  oh look at me i'm billy big bollocks its just a shame their average iq is zero.You may say that there is a few smart ones but that is outweighed by the majority who only manged  a minus score.This is not a xenophobic opinion the data is freely available in the new scientist and the Nat.Geographic.The only people to score lower in the tests were moores and parry and they only got one question wrong, who should you sell LFC to dubai or twit&twat

I commend your meticulous research there jonny ... if only everyone else included such detailed references and documentation to support their arguments the world would be a better place for sure.

;-)

[coffeehead]

I was idly flicking through SSN last night and there was a piece on Derby County in which the previous chairman Peter Gadsby was voicing his regret at selling the club out to an American consortium.

The parallels were striking:

Gadsby had taken the club as far as he thought he could and sold it to a bunch of Americans because they promised him significant investment would be put into the club

Looking back he now regrets the sale because the investment hasn't been forthcoming

Asked if he thinks he made a mistake he admits they should have looked closer, asked more questions, not just taken them on trust...

One of the Americans, Derby's new President is called Tom Glick.

When Gadsby kept asking questions he was sacked from his nomn-executive directors role by Tom Glick

Tom Glick keeps mouthing off to the media
 
Glick, Hicks, both acting like dicks? I know our situations aren't quite the same but it is interesting no? Is Glick a gestalt figure made up from Gillet+Hicks?

[HarryLabrador]

I was idly flicking through SSN last night and there was a piece on Derby County in which the previous chairman Peter Gadsby was voicing his regret at selling the club out to an American consortium.

The parallels were striking:

Gadsby had taken the club as far as he thought he could and sold it to a bunch of Americans because they promised him significant investment would be put into the club

Looking back he now regrets the sale because the investment hasn't been forthcoming

Asked if he thinks he made a mistake he admits they should have looked closer, asked more questions, not just taken them on trust...

One of the Americans, Derby's new President is called Tom Glick.

When Gadsby kept asking questions he was sacked from his nomn-executive directors role by Tom Glick

Tom Glick keeps mouthing off to the media
 
Glick, Hicks, both acting like dicks? I know our situations aren't quite the same but it is interesting no? Is Glick a gestalt figure made up from Gillet+Hicks?

Yes, I got the tail end of that story late last night and recalled the interview Tom Glick gave at the time they took over. Here it is again.....
---------------------------------------------
We won't repeat Liverpool mistakes, say Derby's owners
John Percy The Guardian, Tuesday January 29 2008 Article historyPaul Jewell, the Derby County manager, has been assured he will not have to endure a Rafael Benítez-style situation of suspicion and trepidation after the latest transatlantic takeover of a Premier League club.

General Sports Entertainment's £50m purchase of Derby County makes them the fourth US owner of a top-flight club but they have moved swiftly to convince Jewell that their operation will be conducted along similar lines to Randy Lerner at Aston Villa, rather than the model followed by Liverpool's Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

The chairman of GSE, Andy Appleby, admits he is not close to the Liverpool owners but believes his compatriots have made enough errors, such as making public their discussions with Jürgen Klinsmann, to ensure that their operation will be run in an entirely different manner.

"The Liverpool situation is different to this one at Derby but I can only tell you that we are extremely transparent. You can come to my house tomorrow night. We are really good honest, trustworthy people who do things the right way and that has helped us become successful," said Appleby.

"My guess is that they probably made some mistakes that we probably don't want to repeat. We have no intention of undermining anyone on the football side. We respect the manager and Adam Pearson [the chairman]. They've forgotten more about English football than we know."

Appleby, who intends to seek out Villa's owner, Lerner, to discuss his operation, joins Pearson on the board and Tom Glick, a former chief marketing officer for the New Jersey Nets NBA team, is to be president and chief executive with another GSE affiliate, Tim Hinchey, executive vice-president.

The sports group's investment partnership will not take on any of the existing debt at the Premier League's bottom club but Pearson, who has worked tirelessly to conclude the liquid cash injection since buying into Derby for £3m last year, is convinced GSE's methods can,in time, establish Derby as a top-five Premier League club, despite their almost certain relegation this season.

"You've got a situation at Liverpool and you've got a situation at Aston Villa. One is remarkably successful and the other is going down the route where you're injecting debt into an institution that is Liverpool Football Club. If you do that, you're going to have problems. Protest marches are not high on our list of priorities," he said.

The potential American investment has been something Jewell has been aware of since he agreed to return to management in October. In fact it was the promise of the US funding that helped persuade him to accept the post as Billy Davies's successor and he dismissed the worries that Appleby and Glick may interfere with his control of playing affairs, simply because of American problems at Anfield.

"It is a big country America and it is like saying all Scotsmen are tight. Or all Scousers are thieves. You can tar everyone with the same brush and it is a gross generalisation. I think I am a decent judge of character and these people have come to Derby because they see in the long-term future how great Derby can be. Tom and Andy are both really passionate about sport. I don't think they are here to make money or a quick buck because, if I had as much money as them, I don't think I would be buying a football club," said Jewell.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jan/29/newsstory.derbycounty

[No666]

was idly flicking through SSN last night and there was a piece on Derby County in which the previous chairman Peter Gadsby was voicing his regret at selling the club out to an American consortium.

The parallels were striking:

Gadsby had taken the club as far as he thought he could and sold it to a bunch of Americans because they promised him significant investment would be put into the club

Looking back he now regrets the sale because the investment hasn't been forthcoming

Asked if he thinks he made a mistake he admits they should have looked closer, asked more questions, not just taken them on trust...

One of the Americans, Derby's new President is called Tom Glick.

When Gadsby kept asking questions he was sacked from his nomn-executive directors role by Tom Glick

Tom Glick keeps mouthing off to the media
 
Glick, Hicks, both acting like dicks? I know our situations aren't quite the same but it is interesting no? Is Glick a gestalt figure made up from Gillet+Hicks?

Groundhog nightmare.

[west_london_red]

Tom Glick? thats some kind of joke right?

[RedFromTheUS]

It depresses me that our owners are American.

[eljazzen]

It depresses me that our owners are American.

Well, what's depressing is their egos. I don't rate all americans in one category. I'm sure Kraft could be a good owner. At least he is loved by his fans and he seems to a sensible person who cares about his team. Hicks and Gillett are liers and doesn't represent none of our values. They are shite.