Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[royhendo]

Corporate rebrand for the thread. We're a long way from the o.p. now. It's got a life and momentum of it's own.

See Zlatan break his duck?

[Degs]

See Zlatan break his duck?

Did, then fuck up straight after mind you.

Seems to me like he should be playing with somebody in front of him, he abandons his position with regularity much like Rooney does whereas the likes of Torres (now anyway), Milito, and Eto'o will hang in or just outside the box.

Pedro was very impressive, Bojan looked back to his best as well.

[Pr0n]

Just got around to watching the 1st half again. 1st half because thats the one that seemed to get the most disdain.

I honestly think we played pretty good. The passing was good, not too many give aways and the movement was good also. I am really liking what I am seeing from Lucas in the past 3 games. Againts spurs he kinda just stayed around the centre but since then he is more willing to run beyond Stevie.
The strange thing for him is that he is so much like Kuyt. Their football IQ is off the charts because they always know when and where to be the most effective at that time. But they dont always make the execution part of the process look all that sexy. If Lucas can get his final ball right, he might turn into a very important piece of the puzzle.

One other thing. Stevie cannot, I repeat cannot allow himself to be marked out of the game like a little pussy. When you see someone that tight with you, have a word with a winger ( preferably the side you like the most ) and tell them that you will be going there more often to shake off your man marker.
There is no way in hell that Megson would have allowed Stevie to be man marked if he spend a good 15-20 out wide because the middle would have been left wide open for Lucas, Kuyt and Torres to do whatever the felt like.
Simply dropping deeper and deeper just doesnt cut it because you end up encroaching on the 2 middle guys and making a nuisance of yourself.

I'm surprised Rafa hasnt told him this or atleast tried to change it when it happens by running Kuyt through the middle and placing Ste on the right for a while.


So 4 games. 1 awful game and 3 games where we clearly were the better team for long stretches. The world wont end after all.

I agree about us playing well in first half. Didn't watch the game live, had to dl and check it later.. And I didn't read anything but a quick glance at the lfc.tv match report beforehand.. so I was just analysing our play, largely. Was surprised about what you wrote about that there seemed to be disdain for the first half. If anything, we played better overall then.. just lacking a bit of end-product, a bit of sharpness. Which is a matter of when rather than if.

Well, you have a point about that Gerrard could have shaken off muamba a bit more. Still the man-marking was pretty stupid - muamba was following him everywhere so there were plenty of spaces in the centre for others to exploit.. which also happened on more than one occasion. Whatever Bolton gained by trying to control Gerrard by man-marking him, they certainly lost it in terms of control of the other attacking players. I also thought it was interesting to see Stevie just work for the team, not really getting into the game (on the ball) but making a lot of tactical work off it. Not superfantastic, but still - it's nice to see for a change that he doesn't have to do everything himself - nor be the main focal point.

I thought Insua had a particularly cracking game... when they tried to block Johnson, we always had the other flank as an (at least close to) equal option. Several good moves on the left from both Riera and Insua / combined aswell as individual efforts, which was really nice to see.

It would be my sentiment that we already look to have overcome the major hurdles from converting to a team without Xabi. There is nothing wrong with our attacking play (although room for improvement in terms of end product) and the weaknesses so far has had nothing to do with the absence of a playmaker.

[rednich85]

So what does that really mean in practice? Once the first ball has been lost the players scrap zonal and quickly switch to 'man-marking'?

Only getting back to you now......yes

My understanding of the zonal marking system is that it is effective for phase one (i.e the set piece)

Think about it, after the initial set piece, its 'open play' where the reponsability is on the man nearest to the ball (or the 'danger') to react

I am here to be corrected though

[Pr0n]

Only getting back to you now......yes

My understanding of the zonal marking system is that it is effective for phase one (i.e the set piece)

Think about it, after the initial set piece, its 'open play' where the reponsability is on the man nearest to the ball (or the 'danger') to react

I am here to be corrected though

That sounds about right. Zonal marking is adaptive to where the ball is, rather than where the opposition is, in general. However the great mistake of any zonal defence is if you don't consider the opposition at all. It doesn't explain how no-one reacted to new situations for both of Bolton's goals.. Seemed a lot like the bystander phenomenon. Like Rafa pointed out in his pre-game interview we needed intensity in dealing with the changes in situation - and we didn't have that for both situations that led to the goals vs. bolton.

It's also questionable wheter the positioning was correct for the first goal.

[MHLC]

Think about it, after the initial set piece, its 'open play' where the reponsability is on the man nearest to the ball (or the 'danger') to react

I am here to be corrected though

My first post in here, go easy on me

Boltons 1st goal stands up that idea. The nod down at the back post wiped out several players. It had to be a planned move.

[Pr0n]

My first post in here, go easy on me

Boltons 1st goal stands up that idea. The nod down at the back post wiped out several players. It had to be a planned move.

For sure it looked like a planned move.. a carefully construed but very simple overloading. But a cross should'nt be allowed to fly across the goal-mouth with little adaptation at all to the new situation.. and of course - loosing the first ball in that situation, well.. it causes problems to say the least! There wasn't even a thought of how to deal with the one player that could actually attack the ball - and not just the ball per se.

[Juan Loco]

Words cannot describe how pissed off I am with set pieces, both attacking and defending. Unprofessional is the best word I can use to describe them, 'cos it sums up my feelings on how we can still be so poor in both areas with them with a manager as studious as Rafa in charge. If someone told me we don't even practice them I'd believe them. It's that poor. It's just sickening really.

Got a couple of goals from set pieces this season but they've been a bit lucky. Johnson's and Gerrard's on Saturday weren't well worked out set pieces, the ball just happened to break that way. Johnson against Stoke was a little more rehersed given Kuyt's bad luck at not getting the goal with the header in the first place.

It just pisses me off immensely to be honest. I watched Barcelona score twice from set plays this evening, and they've done it more than enough during Guardiola's tenure. Barcelona, football's whiter than white aren't too good to work their bollocks off on creating effective set plays. Argentina, when Riquelme was responsible for delivery, hard an entire scrapbook of unique and innovative set pieces. These teams are blessed with technically outsanding players and still relish being inventive from a set piece. Why is it a team managed by Rafa, a man whose footballing teams are more known for being solid, obdurate and mechanical than majestical can't do that? You'd think set pieces would be one area that Rafa would absolutely fucking love because he's obsessed by control and it's a big part of the game he can control.

Christ, I'm mashing the keyboard just trying to articulate just how infuriating I find it. It's fucked up.

[-Sad Fuck-]

In my opinion, I think one of the problems has been confidence. When you're on an international break or what not, and come back, pre season involving a lot of rotation etc, it seems as if we've almost forgotten what we were so good at.

Problem is, as soon as we let in one goal through zonal marking, the confidence drains, the fans can see it, the players can see it, and everytime the opposition gets a corner, they're almost bricking it. We can be grateful our next game's at home to Burnley, who no disrespect to, aren't a very good side in the air. They seem to play most of their football on the deck, and I'm fairly certain we won't concede from a set piece, let alone at all for that matter, unless some massive fuck up/wondergoal does us.

Pisstake how easily City are scoring from set pieces mind you. Take Villas goal as well yesterday.

[rednich85]

The sooner our captain stops being involved in all our set pieces, the better. Free kicks, in shooting distance, yeah, go ahead Stevie, but for fuck sakes, leave the corners, its been nearly 5 years and your corners are woeful

[MHLC]

The sooner our captain stops being involved in all our set pieces, the better. Free kicks, in shooting distance, yeah, go ahead Stevie, but for fuck sakes, leave the corners, its been nearly 5 years and your corners are woeful

Alonso wasn't much better either. Of course he had some success, but how many times did we see the ball overhit and drift past the back post and out of play from a free kick?

Aurelio seems the only player in the squad with a dead ball specialty. We should have snaffled Juninho from Lyon before he got too old!

[Juan Loco]

Alonso wasn't much better either.

I know it couldn't be anything other than coincidence but Alonso only ever seemed to take a decent set piece when Gerrard wasn't on the pitch. I remember the derby in Rafa's 2nd season where Gerrard got sent off early and Alonso took all the set plays and they were really, really dangerous all day.

He was taking dangerous set pieces for Real Madrid on Saturday as well... Maybe the corner flags at Anfield were placed on an ancient Indian burial ground or something, 'cos our set plays are cursed. It's beyond a joke. It's disgusting.

[MHLC]

Anfield is cursed

[Pr0n]

Juan: for now, I couldn't give a shit about our attacking set pieces.. sure, we can do better but it's not what's costing us. Had a re-look at Bolton's first goal.

Two or three mistakes in there which makes it very easy for bolton. First of, Insua is only looking at the incoming cross, as is Kuyt - both are oblivious to Elmander. With us having a man-advantage in that area, surely it SHOULD be possible to put in a block.. and then when the ball goes in to the centre.. Kyrgiakos, Torres, Riera? stand on their heels despite that there is nothing to defend where they stand - and them both being close enough to the situation to make a difference by moving.. It only took one header and our goal-mouth is overrun - and Bolton don't even have to scramble to net the ball. Kyrgiakos was the closest player - but the three of them should have started to move the instant Insua was loosing out to Elmander - or rather - as soon as the they saw the cross was going for the back-post. If they had kept an eye on the opposition they would not have needed to hesitate for a second.
And Kyrgiakos - Torres looked to be too close in terms of positioning.

A collective case of bystander syndrome.

[liverbnz]

Juan: for now, I couldn't give a shit about our attacking set pieces.. sure, we can do better but it's not what's costing us. Had a re-look at Bolton's first goal.

Two or three mistakes in there which makes it very easy for bolton. First of, Insua is only looking at the incoming cross, as is Kuyt - both are oblivious to Elmander. With us having a man-advantage in that area, surely it SHOULD be possible to put in a block.. and then when the ball goes in to the centre.. Kyrgiakos, Torres, Riera? stand on their heels despite that there is nothing to defend where they stand - and them both being close enough to the situation to make a difference by moving.. It only took one header and our goal-mouth is overrun - and Bolton don't even have to scramble to net the ball. Kyrgiakos was the closest player - but the three of them should have started to move the instant Insua was loosing out to Elmander - or rather - as soon as the they saw the cross was going for the back-post. If they had kept an eye on the opposition they would not have needed to hesitate for a second.
And Kyrgiakos - Torres looked to be too close in terms of positioning.

A collective case of bystander syndrome.

That's exactly how I saw it. People standing by hoping for someone else to take responsibility. That mentality needs to altered, and quick.

[Yorkykopite]

A collective case of bystander syndrome.

Otherwise known as 'zonal marking'.

[Hank Scorpio]

One of the things which slightly worries me atm, and something which I don't think has been previously mentioned yet, is the lack of team contribution to goals.

It seems to be the usual suspects when it comes to our goals this season, that is Johnson, Kuyt, Torres and Gerrard.  When I say contribution, I mean the goal itself, the assist and the pass leading to the assist.

I honestly feel we should expect more from our central midfield especially considering they have not exactly provided to usual shield to the defence.  Lucas and Mascherano need to make a more telling contribution to our attack and then maybe there would be less pressure on the defence.

[scatman]

but Hank the pressure the defence are feeling is from set pieces, that is the problem. There is really no other problem, we dont seem to have an issue scoring goals, although the finishing has been poor in comparison to the number of efforts.

[Pr0n]

Otherwise known as 'zonal marking'.

Surely not. Zonal marking is not some code word for passivity.

[b_joseph]

For me, attacking set pieces will always be about the players you have in the box. Yes, Stevie hasnt got the best delivery but howcome whenever Hyypia was on the pitch, we suddenly looked 100% more threatening from corners or dead ball crosses?

Its the same for United and now Real Madrid. Cristiano Ronaldo is such a good header of the ball that it never mattered who took the free kick because he would always get himself on to the ball.
It happened within 20 minutes of his first league game this past weekend. Xabi puts the ball in to the back stick and some dude wearing white absolutely powers a header just over the bar. Real Madrid fans havent seen someone be able to do that in years.

Right now we have nobody of that standard. Nobody who we know will always get to the ball first and get a quality connection on the ball.

[b_joseph]

One of the things which slightly worries me atm, and something which I don't think has been previously mentioned yet, is the lack of team contribution to goals.

It seems to be the usual suspects when it comes to our goals this season, that is Johnson, Kuyt, Torres and Gerrard.  When I say contribution, I mean the goal itself, the assist and the pass leading to the assist.

I honestly feel we should expect more from our central midfield especially considering they have not exactly provided to usual shield to the defence.  Lucas and Mascherano need to make a more telling contribution to our attack and then maybe there would be less pressure on the defence.

Insua vs Villa...plus, not to long ago, people moaned that the usual suspects were Torres and Gerrard. At least these days we now have 4 usual suspects. Progress

And also, wait until Yossi gets his legs under him. That will be a 5th consistent contributor for goals/assists/hockey assist.

[Yorkykopite]

Surely not. Zonal marking is not some code word for passivity.

And yet once again the only Liverpool player moving when that corner came over was Pepe Reina. The others were, as usual, static, faithfully marking their 'zones'.

[Liverbird hr1]

Insua vs Villa...plus, not to long ago, people moaned that the usual suspects were Torres and Gerrard. At least these days we now have 4 usual suspects. Progress

And also, wait until Yossi gets his legs under him. That will be a 5th consistent contributor for goals/assists/hockey assist.

[Liverbird hr1]

Lets look forward to having some of our injured players playing then we will see improvements, we have yossi torres gerrard Kuyt who can all score goals, and our winger reira  and johnson. So here hoping.

[royhendo]

Welcome aboard Uncle Albert and Liverbird hr1.

Did, then fuck up straight after mind you.

Seems to me like he should be playing with somebody in front of him, he abandons his position with regularity much like Rooney does whereas the likes of Torres (now anyway), Milito, and Eto'o will hang in or just outside the box.

Pedro was very impressive, Bojan looked back to his best as well.

What happened with Keirrison? Is he in their squad?

It'll be interesting to watch him this year cos intuitively it just seems wrong.

[scatman]

Keirrison's on loan at Benfica, they did the deal as soon as they signed him.

[hassinator]

Otherwise known as 'zonal marking'.

not helped by kyrigakos making his debut.  do you think its just a coincidence that we're leaking goals at set pieces when we've had so many changes to our back four this season?  as a system its the best way forward we just need to get better at putting it into practice.

[Joe_Singh]

not helped by kyrigakos making his debut.  do you think its just a coincidence that we're leaking goals at set pieces when we've had so many changes to our back four this season?  as a system its the best way forward we just need to get better at putting it into practice.

I certainly think so. We've gone from Carra/Skrtel > Carra/Ayala > Carra/unfit Skrtel >Carra/Kyriogos. So it certainly hasn't helped.

Then there are also other factors such as us trying to play a new brand of football and therefore the ball not sticking up top enough due to not so great form of our players in those positions. This is causing us to concede possession and then being on the back foot. I do think we'll step it up after the international break. I for once am glad that we have one right now. Usually its filled with dread. Is that a sign of progress under Rafa?

[hassinator]

I certainly think so. We've gone from Carra/Skrtel > Carra/Ayala > Carra/unfit Skrtel >Carra/Kyriogos. So it certainly hasn't helped.

Then there are also other factors such as us trying to play a new brand of football and therefore the ball not sticking up top enough due to not so great form of our players in those positions.

and two new starting fullbacks.  we've had the same leaky disposition when we've had to chop and change at the back last season. 

we will tighten up and it is definitely the best way forward.

[b_joseph]

Hass -  We have defended set pieces like this for a good few years now. I think it is optimistic at best to say that the problems are because of changes.

The goals will dry up from them because of law of averages. No team regardless of how bad they are concedes goals from dead balls at this kind of rate.

[hassinator]

Hass -  We have defended set pieces like this for a good few years now. I think it is optimistic at best to say that the problems are because of changes.

The goals will dry up from them because of law of averages. No team regardless of how bad they are concedes goals from dead balls at this kind of rate.

i disagree joe.  the whole point of zonal marking is that the team has to work as a unit rather than the individual system of man marking.  if you bring in new players - and kyrigakos was making his debut - you will run into problems as understandings take time to develop.

i've mentioned in the zonal marking thread that as a tactic its always vulnerable to real quality - a killer ball dropped on the head of a top centre forward should always result in some sort of opportunity - but then the attacking team always has the advantage as they know when the ball will be played and the attackers are in motion as the ball comes in.

the defensive team is always reacting - whether its man marking or zonal - but with zonal marking we should be attacking the ball rather than the man which theoretically reduces the number of fouls that can be conceded and, over all, has served us very well.

perhaps we need to think of some hybrid version of the zonal system against teams that are particularly good at set pieces - arsenal seemed to have us worked out last season and again are a team with real quality - but i think rafa would argue that our players need to start doing their job properly and then we should be fine.

still defending set pieces is a clearly a near catastrophic weakness verging on an achilles heel for us and we need to rectify it as a priority.

[Yorkykopite]

not helped by kyrigakos making his debut.  do you think its just a coincidence that we're leaking goals at set pieces when we've had so many changes to our back four this season?  as a system its the best way forward we just need to get better at putting it into practice.

It probably doesn't help. But I'm still genuinely amazed by how 'zonal marking' (at set pieces) has become a kind of theology among Liverpool supporters. The incredible faith invested in the system is not matched, over the last few seaons, by the diabolical results. I think that many of us feel that it's tantamount to an act of treachery to subject zonal marking to a debate, let alone criticism. It's as if the issue cannot be raised because Charlie Nicholas once raised it on Sky tv.

Well that's just crap reasoning. As George Orwell once said of that lying newspaper called the 'Daily Telegraph': "Some things are true even though the Daily Telegraph says they're true". 

It's been clear for a while now that opposing teams have worked out how to attack a zonal defence at set pieces. I thought the writing was surely on the wall when Cahill virtually stood on the first step of the Kop awaiting a corner last season. He joined the action as the kick was taken, headed on, and Everton scored. Even a monkey might have noticed that Everton had been practising.

It didn't make a blind bit of difference to us though. We defended zonally in the next Derby and Cahill scored again.

That was infuriating. But now it's just sick. Chelsea, who frequently scored against our zonal defence when it was a bit more watertight, will have a field today if we don't make changes before we next meet.

[socrates the sophist]

1) I think the problem with zonal marking is that it limits the defender's ability to anticipate the situation: we see the second goal against aston villa both Torres an Carra were slow to act because they did not anticipate Davies' run.
2) A look at how zonal marking works in open play can indicate what is wrong with our set-peice defending: a left back who, in open play, does not stand there waiting for the ball to arrive in his zone to start to defend, rather he marks the off-the-ball player in his zone.
3) so zonal defending is not defending the ball when it arrives to your zone (what we do). It is about defending against and preventing the opposition in your zone to reach the ball.
I believe that if we realize this fact we will line up differently to how we currently do.   

[Phil M]

3) so zonal defending is not defending the ball when it arrives to your zone (what we do). It is about defending against and preventing the opposition in your zone to reach the ball.
I believe that if we realize this fact we will line up differently to how we currently do.   

Then that is essentially back to man marking.

[socrates the sophist]

Then that is essentially back to man marking.

that is what I am trying to clarify;

both man marking and zonal marking are concerned with marking the opposition player, however;
In zonal marking you mark ANY player who comes into THE ONE zone you have been allocated to mark
In man marking you mark THE ONE player that you have been assigned to in ANY place on the pitch.
see the difference?

[hassinator]

It's been clear for a while now that opposing teams have worked out how to attack a zonal defence at set pieces. I thought the writing was surely on the wall when Cahill virtually stood on the first step of the Kop awaiting a corner last season. He joined the action as the kick was taken, headed on, and Everton scored. Even a monkey might have noticed that Everton had been practising.

It didn't make a blind bit of difference to us though. We defended zonally in the next Derby and Cahill scored again.

That was infuriating. But now it's just sick. Chelsea, who frequently scored against our zonal defence when it was a bit more watertight, will have a field today if we don't make changes before we next meet.

good points well made but didn't dirk have some man marking duties in the second game against everton?

i can't see rafa making such a strategic change at this stage of the season i think its more likely he will just practice harder.

[Pr0n]

Yorky: if you understand how it works in open play, it's a lot easier to understand how it's supposed to work at set pieces.. Zonal marking in open play is the team lining up (with previously rehearsed distances - in-between team parts and players in the same team-parts) according to the position of the ball / opposition ball holder. It's not a question of "guarding" zones. Actually the idea of "zones" for each player is misguided, a misconception steming from the name of the marking system.
The whole point with zonal marking is that you use the team rather than the individual - to defend.

That doesn't mean that the individual is devoid of defensive duties such as tracking back, putting in a challenge, adding pressure by chasing down someone in the opposing team (which may f.i disrupt the defensive formation - leading to new team-defensive movements), and so on and so forth. The defensive strategy is altered, depending on where the ball is, on the pitch. (f.i. the team being more wide further up and more narrow the closer to the own goal the ball is).

Now, defending set-pieces is different, but it stems from the same principle.. The strategy (the initial defensive formation) can be wrong.. the team movement can be wrong (little time to react to a new/unexpected situation - the team reacting to a situation wrongly - F.I.) or there can be individual mistakes.. a player straying too far to either side, or too far back/forward or simply failing to deal with an aerial challenge.. F.I. There is little room for error. Less so than defending in open play.
Obviously the first setup of positioning is the most important when it comes to set-pieces, but after the ball is struck there is a new situation for the players to react to - immediately. They shouldn't stand passively and watch the ball. I don't know exactly what the idea is with our specific strategy and hence it's hard to say exactly who did what wrong (if the players failed to react according to the plan) and if there was no error in how they reacted (which I find extremely unlikely) - there must be something wrong with our specific strategy. We can easily discount "individual mistake" as the reason for Bolton's first.

You are factually wrong when you state that zonal marking has had "diabolical" results the last couple of seasons. Bar a few off-patches we've let in very few goals from set-piece situations. Every team is going to concede every now and again from set-pieces. It's impossible not to.

[electricghost]

It probably doesn't help. But I'm still genuinely amazed by how 'zonal marking' (at set pieces) has become a kind of theology among Liverpool supporters. The incredible faith invested in the system is not matched, over the last few seaons, by the diabolical results. I think that many of us feel that it's tantamount to an act of treachery to subject zonal marking to a debate, let alone criticism. It's as if the issue cannot be raised because Charlie Nicholas once raised it on Sky tv.

That may well be true for some fans, but it certainly isn't the case for me, and I'm sure many others.
The reality is that I watch umpteen goals conceded every week by teams who choose to man mark at corners, and yet no criticism of this system is offered by the so called expert pundits. I have no objection to the zonal marking system being discussed and criticised, and it's negative aspects being highlighted. I do object though when the goal scorer has just been presented with a free header from six yards because his man marker either lost him, or was blocked off, and man marking and it's failings is never mentioned.

Would we concede fewer goals if we employed man marking ?

I don't know the answer to that, and nobody can say for sure that we would. It would depend how well we can do it, just like with zonal marking, (and I admit we are poor at the moment).

The only way we would know for sure would be to try it and see,  but I don't think that we should be changing a system at this stage that the manager obviously believes in, and has been rather less than diabolical by my reckoning.

[Yorkykopite]

That may well be true for some fans, but it certainly isn't the case for me, and I'm sure many others.
The reality is that I watch umpteen goals conceded every week by teams who choose to man mark at corners, and yet no criticism of this system is offered by the so called expert pundits.

That is an excellent point (although it would be nice if we could test the propositon by scoring against man-marking defences from free kicks and corners ourselves). But I still wonder whether Chelsea fans and Man Utd fans etc feel that defending set pieces is their Achilles heel?

You also say that the manager shouldn't be changing a system he believes in at this stage. What do you mean by 'this stage'? Early in the season? Or five years into the experiment? Or something else? (ED: That was hassinator's point  as well so I'll address the question to him too)

[Varmenni]

We can easily discount "individual mistake" as the reason for Bolton's first.

Well, I thought that Insúa should have been in a position to deal with it, but he tried to let it go out for a goal kick instead of conceding the corner.

Would we concede fewer goals if we employed man marking ?

The problem with us man marking is that we have half  a team of midgets.

(although it would be nice if we could test the propositon by scoring against man-marking defences from free kicks and corners ourselves).

I can remember at least on late last season, where Kuijt used Agger to lose his marker and get a free diving header in the "Ican'trememberhowmanyards" box