Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[barnseysleftpeg]

We're playing 4-3-3 at the moment, Gerrard right CM, Mascherano CM and Lucas L CM.

This is what we need to play more often in my opinion.... let's see how it goes!

So how did it go? didn't get to see the match.

[Degs]

We're playing 4-3-3 at the moment, Gerrard right CM, Mascherano CM and Lucas L CM.

This is what we need to play more often in my opinion.... let's see how it goes!

We haven't settled on a system yet.  In the 4 matches we've played we've finished with a different formation.
Today, especially after Davis was sent off, for the majority of the second half we had Lucas playing where Gerrard is and Gerrard further back, in the same 4-2-3-1 we usually play.
Lucas has done this before, notably against Chelsea at Stamford Birdge in the 4-4 last season and it frees him from the responsibility of defending.  As today we again saw him dragging players down needlessly right on the edge of the box.
The problem being Lucas is unlikely to score, especially when we need goals.

And if you worried about Gerrard's tackling then I hope it shows on amtch of the day when later on in the second half he made the tackle of the match.

When Voronin came on we were playing a 4-3-3 with Voronin and Benayoun just off either side of Torres, it was working well but everybody was shit scared to shoot, backheeling in the box.

But all of this talk about interchange, formations, etc. is avoiding the gigantic mammoth in the room that is zonal marking. It's beyond a joke, it's now a horrible scar on the face of our football. There were consistently 4 men free in the box and we nearly lost points again because of it.

[BazC]

Fuck knows how it worked, I think Masch went off a bit after that!

Yeah Degs- i think we're finding our feet with regards to Gerrard and Lucas' positions. It's still not sorted yet, but at least we're scoring goals and making chances... the defence are in no way making it easy for us shipping so many shite goals.

I'm still in the camp which says we should play Gerrard and Lucas as CMs ahead of Mascherano who plays deeper. That way you free Lucas up more, and you have Gerrard come deeper- which he does need to do in my opinion. Not only to get involved with the build up, but sometimes he's more dangerous when he's running into the box.

Maybe when Aquilani comes in, he can be a more assertive footballer than Lucas is at the moment- and link up the defence and the attack better. If that happens, Gerrard the 2nd striker is what we'll see. If not, then Gerrard will need to drop deeper at times to provide that extra quality in the build up play.

People say it detracts from the best attacking partnership in the world, but in my opinion it doesn't at all. The aim should be for the players in front of Mascherano and behind Torres, to be comfortable in any position in those areas- Lucas, Gerrard, Riera, Yossi, Kuyt, Aquilani and Voronin should all be comfortable moving in that area and popping up in different places- left mid, central mid, right mid etc- in order to play top quality passing football to support Torres.

I reckon it depends on how Lucas and Aquilani develop this season. If they replace Alonso's role well enough- ie, linking up the defence with the attack from a fairly deep position (as Juan Loco was saying- the Baraja type player- holding midfielder who plays box to box)- then Gerrard will be fine where he is in the attacking free role. If not, however, then I reckon he'll need to be more alert to when he needs to drop back and support Mascherano, Lucas et al. Same goes for Yossi and Kuyt I suppose.

Today, Gerrard was anonymous until he started dropping deeper in the 2nd half- when he did his passing was brilliant, his defensive game was spot on and he was generally more involved. I think we'll see that fairly often- at least when Lucas is playing. It's happened a few times since the Espanyol game and we generally played better when it did happen.

[Juan Loco]

I think you lot make way too much of this formation stuff. Gerrard dropped a little deeper 2nd half but he's always had licence to do as he pleases in his current role. Finally, after four and a half seasons of playing like they were on a fusball table, our formation is flexable. It's 4-2-3-1 when we don't have the ball, but the rest of the time? It's just fluid, which makes a pleasent change.



Defence needs sorting though. Sharpish. You know what I'm going to say - Skrtel and Agger - but as it becomes more and more obvious that Carra is waning the wagons draw around him and the defence of him becomes even more passionate. This isn't going to be seemless.

[BazC]

To be fair, when I first talked about 4-3-3 after Alonso went, I did hammer home the caveat that it's only numbers- but the actual playing difference it represents is Gerrard dropping deeper more often and getting involved with the build up play.

He has got a free role which sees him drift deep every now and then, but just not often enough. I just think we need another quality player involved in our build up- that player would either be Gerrard or Yossi.

As for fluidity- I agree- it's why I reckon that the players in between Mascherano and Torres (who I believe have well defined roles) should offer that intelligence to know when to individually drop deep to join the build up, when to make the forward runs to give options to those with the ball, when to support Torres, when to stretch the play, when to come inside and play more compact... it all comes down to whoever plays from Yossi, Gerrard, Lucas, Kuyt, Voronin, Babel, Riera and Aquilani.


Anyway......

Just saw that first goal against us again... Torres and Kyrgiakos are literally standing there with their hands on their hips- not only did Bolton want that 2nd ball more, we didn't even challenge it. Maybe you can understand it- the new lad in a new system and a striker who'd usually leave it to the CB, but what a mess. Same for the 2nd goal... 2nd ball won by Bolton.

I don't think it's a Carra thing per se- so I'm not sure how far Skrtel and Agger will go to remedy it. We need a strong aerial defender- and I expressed that concern about a Skrtel and Agger partnership- neither are as good as Carra let alone close to replacing Sami in the aerial game.

What the are though, is good readers of the game and quick movers- hopefully the 2nd balls after set pieces- we seem to have lost all our goals from (save for a couple) not winning the 2nd balls- will get cut out.

I don't know if it's worth talking about Skrtel and Agger anyway- Agger's hardly ever fit these days is he?

[royhendo]

Just wanted to say - Arshavin - what a joy to watch a player like that ply his trade.

Great posts guys, cheers!

[rafathegaffa83]

For yet another season, I still think our movement needs vast improvement. Too many static players at walking pace, rather than making runs into areas. On the plus side, I love how Johnson has swiftly bedded into our attacking approach. It's as if he's been here for years.

Defence needs sorting though. Sharpish. You know what I'm going to say - Skrtel and Agger - but as it becomes more and more obvious that Carra is waning the wagons draw around him and the defence of him becomes even more passionate. This isn't going to be seemless.

Definitely.

[lionel_messias]

The Zonal marking makes us look like a broken video game team at times. Still a win means no 'crisis' so we can concentrate on the training field and getting injured players fit.

[Juan Loco]

Mascherano and Torres (who I believe have well defined roles)

That's what I'd agree with. They're the ones that add depth and shape to the team. Mascherano is the outball going backwards, Torres is the one going forwards. Everyone is pretty much free to drift when we've got the ball. You can call it 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-1-2-2-1, 4-1-2-3 or any number of different things but none of it really makes sense. I don't see how it's 4-3-3 just because Gerrard drops deep occasionally. If you want to call it that you're only taking into account Gerrard's position on the pitch. Try following where Benayoun goes and you'll soon give up on trying to find out what formation we're playing when in possession. The little lad is the busiest player I've ever seen, which says something considering Mascherano and Kuyt are in the same team.

Just wanted to say - Arshavin - what a joy to watch a player like that ply his trade.

Can we blacklist his name alongside Alves please? Everytime I see it mentioned I want to hunt down and throttle every cretinous little gobshite who uttered the words "Premiership proven" as a reason for buying Fat Head Blarney Stone O'Bollocks Touch over him. I'd shed tears over it, but only to fill a small tub with them and drown that aborition of a number 7 in it.


Simao
Alves
Arshavin
Alonso

[Varmenni]

1) Kuijt.
2) Javier.
3) Lucas?
4) Agger.  Plays on the left side but to centrally to be a FB + No thow-ins and a few long passes.
5) Reina would be the obvious choice, but I'll go for the brazillian keeper whose name starts with a C but whose name I can't remember atm.
6) Gerrard, it just smells right.

[Degs]

1) Kuijt.
2) Javier.
3) Lucas?
4) Agger.  Plays on the left side but to centrally to be a FB + No thow-ins and a few long passes.
5) Reina would be the obvious choice, but I'll go for the brazillian keeper whose name starts with a C but whose name I can't remember atm.
6) Gerrard, it just smells right.

[img width= height=]http://www.hallsawards.com/images/img-prod-TR4839-big.jpg[/img]

1. Dirk Kuyt, Right Wing, vs. Hull City, 3-1, 2009
2  Javier Mascherano, Defensive Midfield, vs. Newcastle, 5-1, 2008
3. Lucas Leiva, Central Midfield, vs. Manchester United, 4-1, 2009
4. Daniel Agger, Centre Back, vs. West Ham, 2-1, 2006
5. Pepe Reina, Goalkeeper, vs. Everton, 1-1, 2009
6. Steven Gerrard, Central Midfield, vs. Sunderland, 2-0, 2009

I miss Agger now 

[josemisuncle]

I think you lot make way too much of this formation stuff. Gerrard dropped a little deeper 2nd half but he's always had licence to do as he pleases in his current role. Finally, after four and a half seasons of playing like they were on a fusball table, our formation is flexable. It's 4-2-3-1 when we don't have the ball, but the rest of the time? It's just fluid, which makes a pleasent change.



Defence needs sorting though. Sharpish. You know what I'm going to say - Skrtel and Agger - but as it becomes more and more obvious that Carra is waning the wagons draw around him and the defence of him becomes even more passionate. This isn't going to be seemless.

This and your other post are spot on.  I'm actually really excited about what's going to happen once we get a settled defense.

[royhendo]

That's got to be worth a thread on the main board Degs, eh?

[royhendo]

See Rafa after the Torres goal? "Calm, pass. Calm, pass."

[Degs]

That's got to be worth a thread on the main board Degs, eh?

Thought it myself and will do it probably next week, interesting answers no?

[Uhoh AureliOs]

Thought it myself and will do it probably next week, interesting answers no?

Please do.

I thought 4, like everyone else bar Varmenni, was Aurelio. Good spot Varmenni.

[royhendo]

http://tomkins-blogs.typepad.com/paul_tomkins_blog/2009/08/goal-involvement-august-2009---johnson-excels.html

[Pr0n]

"zonal marking" this and that.. Well it's obvious our defending at set-pieces needs sorting asap but for me it's quite ridiculous to put it down to zonal marking. The marking system is what it is - not without flaws (and the same goes for man-marking). Nor is it exclusively down to the centrebacks - as f.i. Torres poor challenge vs. Villa showed. We're talking about a mixture of individual errors aswell as tactical ones.
We've had these bad patches (of bad set-piece defending) before, occasionally.. and we need to fix it, no doubt.

Sorry to barge in like this.. just watched the game.

[redmeanmachine]

anybody thought Kyrgiakos was great? winning plenty of headers...I think we have got a gem...

[Degs]

anybody thought Kyrgiakos was great? winning plenty of headers...I think we have got a gem...

Far from great, Sami was great.

Kyrgiakos was too slow with his distribution and nearly cost us with it twice, he was alright on the headers but he's not going to command the box in the same way Sami did.

He looks alright for what he is, a bargain basement panic buy but he'll cost us goals if he plays against anyone with pace.

[rednich85]

Far from great, Sami was great.

Kyrgiakos was too slow with his distribution and nearly cost us with it twice, he was alright on the headers but he's not going to command the box in the same way Sami did.

He looks alright for what he is, a bargain basement panic buy but he'll cost us goals if he plays against anyone with pace.

Agree, 100%

I know it was only his first game and taking all that into account, I was a bit worried at how poor he was in possession

Hopefully he'll only improve his performances, but playing any teams with pace, I'd be a bit worried

Here's hoping first impressions are wrong on my part

[bigbear]

Agree, 100%

I know it was only his first game and taking all that into account, I was a bit worried at how poor he was in possession

Hopefully he'll only improve his performances, but playing any teams with pace, I'd be a bit worried

Here's hoping first impressions are wrong on my part

He's been signed to play at Bolton/Stoke etc. Places where we'll get bombed. He did better than I thought.

[nocturnalvin]

Far from great, Sami was great.

Kyrgiakos was too slow with his distribution and nearly cost us with it twice, he was alright on the headers but he's not going to command the box in the same way Sami did.

He looks alright for what he is, a bargain basement panic buy but he'll cost us goals if he plays against anyone with pace.

had the same observation, though i must add that he won some important headers.

[Yorkykopite]

Some supporters defend zonal marking as if it's a badge of honour. Pundits have attacked it therefore it must work. But it ought to be said that when Bolton scored from their corner all our players were standing in their correct zones. The problem was that for the second ball Bolton had three guys in the six yard box, all completely umarked, all of whom could have poked the loose ball in.

If, on the other hand, zonal marking is wonderful and it's just our players who don't understand it, then we should get rid of them and buy a new set. As General Westmoreland said during the Vietnam war "I had to destroy the village, sir, to save it".

[rednich85]

Some supporters defend zonal marking as if it's a badge of honour. Pundits have attacked it therefore it must work. But it ought to be said that when Bolton scored from their corner all our players were standing in their correct zones. The problem was that for the second ball Bolton had three guys in the six yard box, all completely umarked, all of whom could have poked the loose ball in.

we go it wrong, the zonal aspect is used for phase one, the initial cross

the second ball is down to the individuals to get rid.

[Yorkykopite]

we go it wrong, the zonal aspect is used for phase one, the initial cross

the second ball is down to the individuals to get rid.

So what does that really mean in practice? Once the first ball has been lost the players scrap zonal and quickly switch to 'man-marking'?

[liverbnz]

The players are probably getting more and more nervous about defending set-pieces. They are probably standing in their zones praying for the ball to avoid coming anywhere near them, hoping that someone else will deal with it rather than take responsibility themselves. It would explain why the big Greek, Torres and a few others stood watching while Davies poked the ball home from 2 yards. We need a leader in the air, like Sami was, someone needs to grow a set and say, "that ball is mine". It doesn't matter what system we use, if the players don't attack the ball, we will continue to concede goals.

[bigbear]

So what does that really mean in practice? Once the first ball has been lost the players scrap zonal and quickly switch to 'man-marking'?

It means you can't switch off and about 3 of them plus Carra who went to the goal-line did.

Once the ball has gone past you and comes 'live' you've got to find a man. Otherwise when an opposition striker finds himself in our box in open play we'd be advocating marking zonally which we do not.

[royhendo]

There are no excuses whichever way you slice it. We should be winning first balls and second balls and when we've won them, using the ball well. Set pieces have really started looking ropey though and it's not just the high quality work of the type Chelsea got us with at Anfield in the CL last season. It's basic lumps into the box we're looking nervous with.

The coaching staff ought to address it. It's a different issue to their use of the ball - they should at least be able to organise themselves, attack a ball into the box, and react quickly enough to loose balls. That's basic stuff.

Anyway - change of subject, but it was frustrating to see Lucas burst into the box time and again and us never quite get it to him. When we did, he sclaffed it. Reckon it'll come for him on that front?

[abhred]

Anyway - change of subject, but it was frustrating to see Lucas burst into the box time and again and us never quite get it to him. When we did, he sclaffed it. Reckon it'll come for him on that front?

Yup.

Think he had atleast 4-5 chances to score, but it never quiet came off. Again, being more aggressive, and also with more confidence, he'll score more goals. That's something he needs to work on, because he gets into goal scoring positions A LOT.

[liverbnz]

Vicious circle for Lucas. If he keeps fluffing his lines when he gets into them positions then people are less likely to wanna pick him out. Once he starts netting though, teammates will start looking for him more. He does seem a decent finsiher, so once the confidence gets up he should be flying.

[bigbear]

Vicious circle for Lucas. If he keeps fluffing his lines when he gets into them positions then people are less likely to wanna pick him out. Once he starts netting though, teammates will start looking for him more. He does seem a decent finsiher, so once the confidence gets up he should be flying.

He is getting into a lot of forward positions but is either half a yard slow or air-shotting. Hopefully one will drop perfectly for him or go in  off his arse and his confidence will grow.

[Shaded Red]

Just saw that first goal against us again... Torres and Kyrgiakos are literally standing there with their hands on their hips- not only did Bolton want that 2nd ball more, we didn't even challenge it. Maybe you can understand it- the new lad in a new system and a striker who'd usually leave it to the CB, but what a mess. Same for the 2nd goal... 2nd ball won by Bolton.

I don't think it's a Carra thing per se- so I'm not sure how far Skrtel and Agger will go to remedy it. We need a strong aerial defender- and I expressed that concern about a Skrtel and Agger partnership- neither are as good as Carra let alone close to replacing Sami in the aerial game.

What the are though, is good readers of the game and quick movers- hopefully the 2nd balls after set pieces- we seem to have lost all our goals from (save for a couple) not winning the 2nd balls- will get cut out.

I don't know if it's worth talking about Skrtel and Agger anyway- Agger's hardly ever fit these days is he?

There are no excuses whichever way you slice it. We should be winning first balls and second balls and when we've won them, using the ball well. Set pieces have really started looking ropey though and it's not just the high quality work of the type Chelsea got us with at Anfield in the CL last season. It's basic lumps into the box we're looking nervous with.

The coaching staff ought to address it. It's a different issue to their use of the ball - they should at least be able to organise themselves, attack a ball into the box, and react quickly enough to loose balls. That's basic stuff.

This was before we conceded yet another 2 bad goals, but as always with Rafa, he seems to have identified the same things and they are working on it.


http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2009/08/29/rafa-benitez-backs-steven-gerrard-to-put-on-reebok-classic-liverpool-fc-latest-100252-24558703/2/

RAFA BENITEZ is backing Steven Gerrard to take out his frustration on Bolton at the Reebok Stadium today.

The Liverpool skipper endured a night to forget in Monday’s 3-1 defeat to Aston Villa but the manager is confident he will play a starring role in getting the Reds’ title challenge back on track.

Benitez said: “Maybe Steven has had one or two games not up to his best level. But people only see a difference because he was playing so well before.

“Players are not stupid. They know when they are playing well and when they are not playing at the same level.

“Steven is one of our big names and a key player. He will continue to be that.

“I know he will be ready. He knows and everyone knows here that we have to improve.”

Benitez has held a lengthy inquest to what went wrong against Villa and is demanding his players show more composure against Gary Megson’s side.

“We were a little bit nervous when we were losing against Villa and we needed to have more control,” he said.

“We gave the ball away too much and because they were well organised and deep it was difficult to find space.

“Mentally, the second goal just before half-time was a big problem.

“The second half was much better and we were improving but after the penalty it was more difficult. We have to be more calm.”

The Reds have been working on the training ground this week to try to rectify their problems with defending set-pieces.

Benitez won’t change from his favoured zonal marking system but he admits they have been too slack at the back so far.

“I have analysed with the players our record at set-pieces over the past five years,” he revealed.

“Our record is very good but to start the season by conceding five goals already isn’t good.

“Okay, one goal was from a penalty and another was a second ball after a free-kick - they are things you cannot control.

“The own goal was also difficult to avoid but the other two goals we have conceded were disappointing.

“We have analysed it this week and we will try to change things.

“The main thing for me is the determination to attack the ball. We have to show intensity when we are defending as well as attacking.”

New centre-back Sotirios Kyrgiakos is set to make his debut at Bolton after coming through 45 minutes for the reserves on Thursday night.

Meanwhile, Daniel Agger’s back operation has been hailed a success.

The Danish defender underwent surgery in France on Tuesday and is expected to be out for a month.

[royhendo]

So Dalla Valle has allegedly handed in a transfer request...

Broken egg in the new omelette-making process, or? it's a shame though eh?

All rants welcome. We need to build our rant momentum for the joys of tomorrow night. 

[Degs]

All rants welcome. We need to build our rant momentum for the joys of tomorrow night. 

Tomorrow night?

Oh and on LDV, needs a sit down with Rafa, and to be put into the reserves.  Now it may set a bad example but apparently he was promised reserve football and he's good enough for it but will show young players they can hold us to ransom.

But if the lad was told he'd be at reserve level, and we've not given him it then he's within his rights to look for a club that will.

We can't be letting young talented kids out of the door now more than ever because of the financial constraints.

[b_joseph]

Just got around to watching the 1st half again. 1st half because thats the one that seemed to get the most disdain.

I honestly think we played pretty good. The passing was good, not too many give aways and the movement was good also. I am really liking what I am seeing from Lucas in the past 3 games. Againts spurs he kinda just stayed around the centre but since then he is more willing to run beyond Stevie.
The strange thing for him is that he is so much like Kuyt. Their football IQ is off the charts because they always know when and where to be the most effective at that time. But they dont always make the execution part of the process look all that sexy. If Lucas can get his final ball right, he might turn into a very important piece of the puzzle.

One other thing. Stevie cannot, I repeat cannot allow himself to be marked out of the game like a little pussy. When you see someone that tight with you, have a word with a winger ( preferably the side you like the most ) and tell them that you will be going there more often to shake off your man marker.
There is no way in hell that Megson would have allowed Stevie to be man marked if he spend a good 15-20 out wide because the middle would have been left wide open for Lucas, Kuyt and Torres to do whatever the felt like.
Simply dropping deeper and deeper just doesnt cut it because you end up encroaching on the 2 middle guys and making a nuisance of yourself.

I'm surprised Rafa hasnt told him this or atleast tried to change it when it happens by running Kuyt through the middle and placing Ste on the right for a while.


So 4 games. 1 awful game and 3 games where we clearly were the better team for long stretches. The world wont end after all.

[b_joseph]

LDV this year is like Eccleston last year. Poor communication from both parties but it will be sorted.

[bigbear]

Just got around to watching the 1st half again. 1st half because thats the one that seemed to get the most disdain.

I honestly think we played pretty good. The passing was good, not too many give aways and the movement was good also. I am really liking what I am seeing from Lucas in the past 3 games. Againts spurs he kinda just stayed around the centre but since then he is more willing to run beyond Stevie.
The strange thing for him is that he is so much like Kuyt. Their football IQ is off the charts because they always know when and where to be the most effective at that time. But they dont always make the execution part of the process look all that sexy. If Lucas can get his final ball right, he might turn into a very important piece of the puzzle.

One other thing. Stevie cannot, I repeat cannot allow himself to be marked out of the game like a little pussy. When you see someone that tight with you, have a word with a winger ( preferably the side you like the most ) and tell them that you will be going there more often to shake off your man marker.
There is no way in hell that Megson would have allowed Stevie to be man marked if he spend a good 15-20 out wide because the middle would have been left wide open for Lucas, Kuyt and Torres to do whatever the felt like.
Simply dropping deeper and deeper just doesnt cut it because you end up encroaching on the 2 middle guys and making a nuisance of yourself.

I'm surprised Rafa hasnt told him this or atleast tried to change it when it happens by running Kuyt through the middle and placing Ste on the right for a while.


So 4 games. 1 awful game and 3 games where we clearly were the better team for long stretches. The world wont end after all.

Re Gerrard, just watch it again and see how many times he loses Muamba in good areas with a little bit of movement but the ball isn't played quickly enough.

[royhendo]

Tomorrow night

The transfer window's ceremonial closure live on SSN with Ferguson kidnapping Messi on his way to the Eastlands and Dabbid Beeya rocking up to John Lennon airport but the flight being delayed due to poor visibility over the Liverpool accounts.

[Degs]

The transfer window's ceremonial closure live on SSN with Ferguson kidnapping Messi on his way to the Eastlands and Dabbid Beeya rocking up to John Lennon airport but the flight being delayed due to poor visibility over the Liverpool accounts.

Oh with that c*nt on the phone.
No thanks.