Topic: 2017/18 Goals Conceded: How, Where, When, Who

[Funky_Gibbons]

A lot of mentions of Can and Gini in that Echo write up.....which again points to the fact they need to be better defensively considering the amount of games we'll be playing.

Defenders apart-a lot of the defensive duties will fall to them two while playing, and Hendo too...

Maybe putting firmino somewhere on the edge of the box would be better? Smart enough to pick the right pass if the ball breaks to him and not the best in the air so wouldn't want him in the thick of it

I've said in another thread that we don't have enough people who want to defend and want keep clean sheets, like a striker wants to score goals. Wijnaldum is attacking midfielder and Firmino is our main striker, I don't think either of them want to defend these situations aggressively enough.

[Buck Pete]

Great idea for a thread. And personally speaking not for apportioning blame but simply to remember what the fuck happened.

On many occasion I've tried in vain to remember who or how a goal was scored/conceded in a past game. Superb thread to use as a sort of goal WIKI throughout the season

Id like to see a similar thread for goals scored too please.  Make it so RedMark, I like the cut of your jib sir.

[Yanwoo]

Really like this, good job!

Especially would advocate the attempt to keep it focused on understanding what happened, what was the series of events and circumstances that led to the goal, who was involved, and tread gently with apportioning responsibility. And stay away from any sense of blame, it's just not a helpful construct.

I think it's also interesting to look at at which step the goal would have been most easily preventable, which is distinct from identifying which step 'most' contributed to the goal ('cause that is generally going to be the error closest to the ball crossing the line).

There's a model in the risk and control world that I would suggest is applicable here, colloquially called the Swiss Cheese Model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model). It's just a lens to look through that might be of interest to those so inclined 

Also, although I'm not advocating we do this, it's often just as useful to look at near misses as it is actual events (goals, in this instance). There's some randomness (used loosely) that determines if a series of errors actually leads to a goal (vs a near miss). From a process perspective, those series of errors, if they lead to a 'good chance', are just as significant whether or not they actually lead to a goal. Perhaps, if we keep some clean sheets (...), we could look at a couple of near misses (although that might dilute the thread)?  I have little doubt that's how Klopp and his team look at (if you listen carefully to his post match interviews, you see this kind of system and process thinking vs outcome orientation)
 

[penga]

Good find Funky. Although I thought the Echo journalist's narrative for the West Ham freekick sounded agenda driven so thought I would look it up.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ITacxbgciYc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ITacxbgciYc</a>

"squirms under Loris Karius" - no it didn't.
"All on Karius" - no it isn't.
"But from long-range, Karius should not be beaten" - What? By that logic TAA's goal the other night was a goalkeeping error. It was much further out also. But nobody who is sane would suggest such nonsense.

So let's wipe away the agenda and have a proper look.

Karius positions his wall to the right post, him to the left. This is good positioning as Payet is right footed and therefore shots to Karius left will be curling out to in, therefore harder to reach. So what happens?
1. Wall splits. Mostly Lovren who inexplicably takes a step to his left and then tries to head a ball that would have been right at him if he just stood where Karius told him to.
2. Ball curls into the bottom right hand corner which Karius, at full stretch, cannot reach.

Ultimately though, you are talking about a world class free kick taker here. It was just a very good goal that maybe would have been deflected away if Lovren just stayed where the keeper places him. The reason he is placed there, specifically, is that any ball that starts out wider than Lovren should remain central enough for the keeper to reach.

Itīs also interesting that "commanding the box" is an issue for the header we conceded to Wolves but not the others. Journalist clearly gets a hardon bashing Karius If you look at his narrative for the Chelsea freekick later - he points out that others blame Mignolet but it was just a terrific freekick.

One of the problem I have with assessing goals like this is you can see how pre-conceived ideas and opinions actually decide how something is viewed. If you like Migs, then he has no chance with shots. If you dislike him, you can question his positioning, dive, reach, reactions, commanding of the box, whatever.

There is absolutely no consistency between how he views the West Ham/Chelsea freekicks and how he views Karius commanding of the box vs Mignolet's.

Ye but you like Karius more than Mignolet  based on his stats in Germany vs Mignolet's poor stats. For example you didn't even remember Karius being nervous in the air or making big mistakes last season on the ball until examples were given to you, and you are very quick to downplay any deficiencies he has vs Mignolet. That goal by Payet looks very saveable because because shot power is not as high and the placement of it isn't right in the corner. Karius also gets a hand to it and it actually does go underneath his hand as this more high quality video shows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0iHXfrEQoo
Also this video more clearly shows that Lovren's movement was not that exaggerated, doesn't look to me like he would've headed it regardless of whether he stepped a bit or not to the left. The ball actually goes straight over Ayew's head who doesn't move https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84rF1oetBSM

The Chelsea freekick is at higher shot power and goes in off the post so the placement is better so would be more unsaveable in theory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfoeeFZ_eRk
However it was Mignolet's not being ready due to not hearing the whistle that probably caused the shot to be taken in the 1st place so he can definitely be blamed for that.

[redmark]

Also, although I'm not advocating we do this, it's often just as useful to look at near misses as it is actual events (goals, in this instance). There's some randomness (used loosely) that determines if a series of errors actually leads to a goal (vs a near miss). From a process perspective, those series of errors, if they lead to a 'good chance', are just as significant whether or not they actually lead to a goal. Perhaps, if we keep some clean sheets (...), we could look at a couple of near misses (although that might dilute the thread)?  I have little doubt that's how Klopp and his team look at (if you listen carefully to his post match interviews, you see this kind of system and process thinking vs outcome orientation)
 

This did occur to me, but... Firstly, it's too much like hard work. Secondly, it becomes subjective; 'we' will include the perceived near misses that fit a narrative - and perhaps cloud the issue highlighting 'errors' that aren't actually as dangerous as they look. Thirdly, the sample size will improve with every game/goal (if someone fancies doing this for the 42 we conceded last season, be my guest ).

[Yanwoo]

This did occur to me, but... Firstly, it's too much like hard work. Secondly, it becomes subjective; 'we' will include the perceived near misses that fit a narrative - and perhaps cloud the issue highlighting 'errors' that aren't actually as dangerous as they look. Thirdly, the sample size will improve with every game/goal (if someone fancies doing this for the 42 we conceded last season, be my guest ).

Yeah, all good points. On (2), I think some of the stats sites have a classification for major chances - so could defer to them to remove that subjectivity. I think I've also seen errors that lead to major chances tracked somewhere?

But, yeah, the amount of effort makes it pretty much a no go. I'm impressed with your intention to do this for goals - that's a lot work too!

[redmark]

I'm impressed with your intention to do this for goals - that's a lot work too!

We're only going to concede about...  Fuck.

[BabuYagu]

Ye but you like Karius more than Mignolet  based on his stats in Germany vs Mignolet's poor stats. For example you didn't even remember Karius being nervous in the air or making big mistakes last season on the ball until examples were given to you, and you are very quick to downplay any deficiencies he has vs Mignolet. That goal by Payet looks very saveable because because shot power is not as high and the placement of it isn't right in the corner. Karius also gets a hand to it and it actually does go underneath his hand as this more high quality video shows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0iHXfrEQoo
Also this video more clearly shows that Lovren's movement was not that exaggerated, doesn't look to me like he would've headed it regardless of whether he stepped a bit or not to the left. The ball actually goes straight over Ayew's head who doesn't move https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84rF1oetBSM

The Chelsea freekick is at higher shot power and goes in off the post so the placement is better so would be more unsaveable in theory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfoeeFZ_eRk
However it was Mignolet's not being ready due to not hearing the whistle that probably caused the shot to be taken in the 1st place so he can definitely be blamed for that.

Ignoring the fact that the responsibility of the Echo is to report the news, not to influence it's readers in an agenda-setting way whereas I am merely an unpaid guy giving my opinion on a forum of opinions. You have once again approached something I have said by initially attacking me or my credibility to give an opinion on something rather than just tackle the things I say. Not entirely sure on your reasons, I'll leave you to them though.

I stand by everything I said in the post you quoted though.

"squirms under Karius" does that accurately describe what happened? No. He got a hand/fingers to it but not enough to turn it around the post. It donīt go under any part of Karius' body, and certainly not in the way the word "squirm" would imply.
"all on Karius" No itīs not. There is a wall. The ball goes through a gap in the wall. Regardless if it goes over the part Lovren should be covering or not (open to debate based on the angle you view from) there should not be a gap in the wall should there? So "all on Karius" is a pretty definitive statement with absolutely no room to interpret anything else - language he doesn't use for literally any other goal on the list.
"But from long-range, Karius should not be beaten" - There are no qualifiers at all here. Nothing to do with where the ball goes, he merely stats matter of factly that from long range Karius should not be beaten. Therefore that becomes a rule that applies for any shots from long range surely? 

More than anything else though, itīs the lack of consistency in what he says. The wall didn't help Mignolet for the Luiz freekick because they didn't jump but he has no issue with there being a hole in the wall on the West Ham one. Karius shouldnīt be beaten from that distance yet Mignolet is beaten from even greater distance and an a sharper angle. If there is more power on the Luiz one (quantifiable) then that is ofset by the distance the ball travels surely?

Then you have the fact we have a tonne of setpieces with Mignolet involved that sound like chaotic scrambles in the box and yet the one with Karius in goal he criticises him for a failing to command the box. Consistency again? What made that one scrambled set piece so different that it reflects poorly on Karius yet Mignolet who is absolved of blame multiple times in the article?

[BabuYagu]

Yeah, all good points. On (2), I think some of the stats sites have a classification for major chances - so could defer to them to remove that subjectivity. I think I've also seen errors that lead to major chances tracked somewhere?

But, yeah, the amount of effort makes it pretty much a no go. I'm impressed with your intention to do this for goals - that's a lot work too!

Often major chances are not recorded if they donīt result in a shot. I remember one such example of a cross where a player goes to kick the ball, his studs stick in the turf, he fell over and statistically that was recorded as an incomplete cross.

You would probably need to watch extended highlights of every match from last season - which is probably 10-20 minutes a-piece to get all those instances of something dangerous happening that wouldnīt statistically qualify as a chance. I know Opta, for example, only record shots as chances.

[A Day 2 Remember]

What happens next?

The square ball into midfield becomes a race to the ball between Moreno & #7. Moreno is likely to come out second best because he is behind #7 however because #16 is now unmarked running onto the ball, Moreno feels he has to attempt to win the ball to cut out an easy square pass.

Babu I like your analysis of Klopp's tactics as it has helped me understand why we looked so disjointed defensively this year. I either have to believe that tactically we look extremely naïve this year compared to last and not drilled in defensive set up, or I can believe your analysis that Klopp has set up the system to encourage the opposition to attack our left hand side so we are set up to counter attack through our left channel via Mane ripping the opposition defense a new one. The latter seems more plausible as I cannot believe a Klopp team would suddenly look un drilled.

Having said that your analysis on the 2nd Watford goal does suggest Moreno only had one option when #7 makes his run and that is to stay touch tight to him. Moreno could have let 7 make his run and just stayed in a zonal defensive position on the edge of the box. A full back can also jostle with an attacker to prevent being put in a weak goal side position which meant Moreno was probably going to be second best in the foot race with #7. A player with the speed of Moreno can learn to cheat a little in his positioning when bodying up to a forward and still make a recovery run if the ball is played on the outside. If Moreno would have held his zonal position he would have forced Watford to have played through his defensive position after #7 received the ball. It may have ended up in a 2v1 situation because of the poor tracking from our midfield but it would still have forced an extra decision to have been made and it would have slowed the attack down whilst that occurred and thus given the midfield extra time to recover or wake up.

It's all hypothetical of course but I'm simply want to point out there where other options available to Moreno which would have brought about a different outcome and potentially a better outcome.

You do a very good job of demonstrating that Moreno in the large scope was only a % of the problem with the goal and there probably was more fault to be laid at maybe three other players. You are correct the "Moreno is wank" crowd may not have noticed this and so your breakdown is worthwhile in highlighting this. Problem is confirmation bias will unfortunately prevent most from leaving the aforementioned crowd any time soon.

[BabuYagu]

Babu I like your analysis of Klopp's tactics as it has helped me understand why we looked so disjointed defensively this year. I either have to believe that tactically we look extremely naïve this year compared to last and not drilled in defensive set up, or I can believe your analysis that Klopp has set up the system to encourage the opposition to attack our left hand side so we are set up to counter attack through our left channel via Mane ripping the opposition defense a new one. The latter seems more plausible as I cannot believe a Klopp team would suddenly look un drilled.

Having said that your analysis on the 2nd Watford goal does suggest Moreno only had one option when #7 makes his run and that is to stay touch tight to him. Moreno could have let 7 make his run and just stayed in a zonal defensive position on the edge of the box. A full back can also jostle with an attacker to prevent being put in a weak goal side position which meant Moreno was probably going to be second best in the foot race with #7. A player with the speed of Moreno can learn to cheat a little in his positioning when bodying up to a forward and still make a recovery run if the ball is played on the outside. If Moreno would have held his zonal position he would have forced Watford to have played through his defensive position after #7 received the ball. It may have ended up in a 2v1 situation because of the poor tracking from our midfield but it would still have forced an extra decision to have been made and it would have slowed the attack down whilst that occurred and thus given the midfield extra time to recover or wake up.

It's all hypothetical of course but I'm simply want to point out there where other options available to Moreno which would have brought about a different outcome and potentially a better outcome.

You do a very good job of demonstrating that Moreno in the large scope was only a % of the problem with the goal and there probably was more fault to be laid at maybe three other players. You are correct the "Moreno is wank" crowd may not have noticed this and so your breakdown is worthwhile in highlighting this. Problem is confirmation bias will unfortunately prevent most from leaving the aforementioned crowd any time soon.

There are two reasons Moreno would have chosen not to do that, both of which I think Klopp would agree with him on.
1) His zone had 2 Liverpool players goal side of 2 Watford players. However the zone the ball - and his man - were moving into was basically a hole in the pitch with 2 Watford players attacking it. He had no way of knowing that Can & Hendo would let Cleverly just run past them into the area Moreno vacates. He has to assume, at minimum, one of them would do something to prevent that happening. He has to assume that the other players are going to take the same level of responsibility as he is for the player they are marking.

2) Pressure on the ball - for Klopp - is the most important thing in defence. Look at the Hoffenheim goal for an example of why. We take a lot of defensive risks in order to be a progressive team but itīs a house of cards that collapses without pressure on the ball. The Vardy chance in the Asia cup was identical in many ways too. No pressure on the left back, clipped ball over the top, etc
The approach you suggest would actually be more the Hodgson approach to defending. Shape above all else. However, this was set to fail anyway given that 2/3 of our midfield was standing at left back. Literally standing too, not making any effort to get back into position.

And yes, the Moreno is wank crowd will just read what I say and move onto his wank shooting, wank crossing and how he has a gormless smile when playing bad like he doesn't give a shit.

[penga]

Ignoring the fact that the responsibility of the Echo is to report the news, not to influence it's readers in an agenda-setting way whereas I am merely an unpaid guy giving my opinion on a forum of opinions. You have once again approached something I have said by initially attacking me or my credibility to give an opinion on something rather than just tackle the things I say. Not entirely sure on your reasons, I'll leave you to them though.

I stand by everything I said in the post you quoted though.

"squirms under Karius" does that accurately describe what happened? No. He got a hand/fingers to it but not enough to turn it around the post. It donīt go under any part of Karius' body, and certainly not in the way the word "squirm" would imply.
"all on Karius" No itīs not. There is a wall. The ball goes through a gap in the wall. Regardless if it goes over the part Lovren should be covering or not (open to debate based on the angle you view from) there should not be a gap in the wall should there? So "all on Karius" is a pretty definitive statement with absolutely no room to interpret anything else - language he doesn't use for literally any other goal on the list.
"But from long-range, Karius should not be beaten" - There are no qualifiers at all here. Nothing to do with where the ball goes, he merely stats matter of factly that from long range Karius should not be beaten. Therefore that becomes a rule that applies for any shots from long range surely? 

More than anything else though, itīs the lack of consistency in what he says. The wall didn't help Mignolet for the Luiz freekick because they didn't jump but he has no issue with there being a hole in the wall on the West Ham one. Karius shouldnīt be beaten from that distance yet Mignolet is beaten from even greater distance and an a sharper angle. If there is more power on the Luiz one (quantifiable) then that is ofset by the distance the ball travels surely?

Then you have the fact we have a tonne of setpieces with Mignolet involved that sound like chaotic scrambles in the box and yet the one with Karius in goal he criticises him for a failing to command the box. Consistency again? What made that one scrambled set piece so different that it reflects poorly on Karius yet Mignolet who is absolved of blame multiple times in the article?

I'm just saying I know you like to try to be impartial but even then sometimes it seems you aren't always. You will have your opinions (like everyone else including me) based on a certain things and believe it is "correct" but it's not easy to appear impartial, because of things like consistently jump on every opportunity to blame Migs for something (even without totally understanding why as you frequently qualify) while try to exonerate Karius of almost every situation - it's appears kind of obvious. Fair point if you think the Echo guy sounds like he is having an agenda too, but maybe that's just his preconceived idea that Mig's is the more solid GK? Maybe I'm pointing out that in your attempt to defend Karius you've gone too far the other way.

You picked out a low quality video with one angle and some distortion on it (goal line not even straight) to prove your point when clearly better quality videos from multiple angles (like front on as well) show a different story, the "real story". The wall clearly couldn't have done anything, it goes over the West Ham player whether Lovren moves or not or if there's a slight gap it is irrelevant. For me even from the video you provided it can be interpreted that Lovren had no chance of heading it, the other angles I provided just merely confirm it with little doubt - and there in lies the appearance of bias whether that's from me or you. The ball also quite clearly goes under Karius' hand although you can indeed argue it doesn't "squirm" from the 1st video I provided at 15 seconds. He might have done well to get to it (I don't know) but it appeared saveable because he did get there and if he placed his hand a bit lower/stronger he would've saved it.

Another example of how we view things differently based on the preconceived perceptions: If you look at how far Payet's freekick is in video 1 considering the pitch pattern has 6 yard rectangles, that freekick is about 28 yards out in a central position and the ball travels at a slight angle to the side of the goal. Luiz's freekick is the same distance away 28 yards as well based on the same rectangles but is located nearly in-line with the side edge of the 6 yard box (which looks a similar distance as between the middle of the goal and side of the goal) and the shot goes near post (shortest distance to goal for that shot) so for me the angle of the shot is also similarly slight. So you cannot clearly claim it was a greater distance in my opinion, or at least not significant enough to make a difference. Also the echo guy says it was 25 yards which I believe is untrue so we can agree there it sounds like bias.

[BabuYagu]

...consistently jump on every opportunity to blame Migs for something (even without totally understanding why as you frequently qualify) while try to exonerate Karius of almost every situation...

That's a claim I hope you can back up. Here is me earlier in this thread today doing the exact opposite of that.

...
3rd Watford goal = stupid FK by Gomez. Punch that lacks control by Migs. Gini with a ducking header instead of attacking the ball and forcing it back where it came. Mignolet, who at this point looked pretty panicked in the game, has a (offside) man fouling him and flaps a bit at a ball heading towards his face. But thatīs just an instinctive "oh shit, that balls hitting me in the face" sort of thing. It looks stupid but given everything happening at that moment, and everything before that caused him to be in a state of panic, I don't really blame Migs. Linesman for not giving offside, Ref for not giving a foul on Migs from the offside player obstructing him, Gini for that shit header, Migs for that out of control punch and Gomez for giving away a needless free kick instead of shepherding away from goal are all the main faults for me.

The biggest, in terms of our players, is likely Gini. But I do get annoyed by that Gomez freekick just because in the last minute, giving away set pieces away from home that ramp up the pressure at the end of games in particular is a very big problem. There is a reason why by far the most goals are scored in football in the last 15 minutes. I'm sure the most set piece goals by far are scored in that window also.

Gomez can release that building pressure. Instead he turned the dial up to 11. It pissed me off. Gini was a bigger fault in terms of the actual goal though - but you could look at that as simply fruit from the poisonous tree (possible misused metaphor alert!)

This is from the Mignolet thread where people were ducking out of praising him for the penalty save.

It looked like he scouted Kramaric and saw that he waits for the keeper to move and make his mind up for him.

Not sure whether that is true or not, but it did appear like that from watching it. If so, very clever Migs. If not, good job waiting to the last second anyway rather than telegraphing what way you are going and giving him an easy penalty.

Usually when you see a shite penalty like that it's because he still doesnt know what way to put it when running up so the keeper ends up psyching him out. I always credit the keeper for that.

Then there is this from my opening post in the roundtable thread

A word on Mignolet. I was worried before the game that the Migs who ended the game on Saturday would be the Migs who started this one looking a little rattled to say the least. But he was excellent. I have seen people discredit that penalty save but I remember a goalkeeper once saying that the easy penalty saves are usually a result of bravery to stand up and not make the penalty takers mind up for him. If the taker is running up to the ball waiting for the keeper to move first, he ends up fluffing the penalty if the keeper stands tall. So well done Mr Mignolet and he built a very confidence performance on that moment of bravery.

My very specific concern about Mignolet is that all possible data dictates that Mignolet is one of the worst shot stoppers in the league. Various different analytics people approached this in various different ways and no matter what we they cut it he is always in the bottom 3, if not bottom. That cannot be good.

Whenever I see information like that, I look for reasons to explain why that is the case rather than dismiss it. We are talking 4 years worth of data where the only goalkeepers who had a worse season are Fabianski, Krul and Guzan. Karius, in contrast has outstanding shot stopping numbers pre-Liverpool. In fact all the analytics people looking at him come to the same conclusion about his shop stopping pre-Liverpool, despite concerns about crosses. That is a given for me. Coaches in England focuses on crosses a lot as we see twice as many of them here and some teams build their whole attacking game on them. That does not happen anywhere else. For me it's a given goalkeepers will need to improve on crosses once they arrive here, I said as much when Karius signed that it would take a year or two to maybe not look like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

The main difference for me is I have 2 years of encouraging numbers with Karius to look at and think "I hope he can give us that". I have 4 years of "oh shit, that is pretty horrific" for Mignolet. That is the entire basis my argument is built on with him. I also have serious concerns about the fragility of him considering his own wife had to give him a mental slapping to get his head straight and even pointed out he overthinks things. This is a huge problem for anybody in any sports who dwells on set backs rather then dusting themselves off pressing the mental reset button. We saw this at Watford where once he started making little mistakes they started to snowball. Despite Liverpool looking better second half, Mignolet looked worse as the game went on -  likely still dwelling on each mistake he previously made. Something he himself said he does.

So yes, I have a very specific concern about Mignolet's shot stopping borne out by data. But I have also disagreed with people blaming him on the 3rd Watford goal (despite his punch, which was out of control), disagreed those who didn't credit him for the penalty save and described his performance against Hoffenheim as excellent. So it doesnīt look like I "consistently jump on every opportunity to blame Migs for something" does it?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/dI_e6DlriSU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/dI_e6DlriSU</a>



So just so we are clear - you are happy with that wall?

Also, having watched that a few times you think a fair description of the goal is "All karius' fault, ball squirms under his hand. Shouldnīt be beaten from long range"? Be honest. I personally would never blame a goalkeeper for conceding that goal because, first of all, itīs on the side of the goal the wall is protecting (or meant to if they donīt let a big hole appear) and secondly the bend on the ball is taking it away from him which makes it a lot harder to save. You can be hypercritical and say if he gets a hand to it he should save it but then that is pretty easy a judgement to make having never tried to save a freekick hit like that by Payet. But there is a huge stretch between "he got a hand to it and could have done better" and what that journalist is saying.

Anyway it's probably heading into double figures now in instances where you decide to have a pop in such a way so I'll just stick you on ignore and save myself some bother in future. I ducked out of RAWK last year in September because I found many people exhausting to deal with and you are quickly becoming one of those people. It was suggested that I don't let such people bother me and just ignore them so I will heed their advice this time around. 

[me76]

Anyway it's probably heading into double figures now in instances where you decide to have a pop in such a way so I'll just stick you on ignore and save myself some bother in future. I ducked out of RAWK last year in September because I found many people exhausting to deal with and you are quickly becoming one of those people. It was suggested that I don't let such people bother me and just ignore them so I will heed their advice this time around. 

Babu - there's loads of trolls on here (like everywhere on the net), but mate, you're a legend and I love your analysis and understanding of the game.  Ignore the shite, the place is much better with you in it! 

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Good idea redmark and unfortunately I won't be able to contribute anywhere near as much as I would like to something like this, still gonna read. The one suggestion here (don't think it's been touched on yet) is an analysis of comparative reaction time. A well organised side in the defensive phase is similar in most ways to a well drilled marching band. There will be situations where there will be a split second thought process involved, but for the vast majority of game situations, it's just reaction in action if you are a good side defensively.

We could take out passages of play depending on location of ball, compare the sequence side by side with a side that plays Klopp's formation and has good numbers defensively, time the movement and analyse the player positions. It could be a 4 v 3, attack's down our right, time the movement of first player to engage, the 2nd one to mark, the 3rd one to cover, balance and so on, and then compare with other passages of play in other games.

Spotting failure is of course the easy thing to do, the hard bit is where the coaches get paid to design and work sessions to bring that reaction time and thought process down to zero for most situations.

Edit: Obviously we're going to have to account for a few things when choosing a passage of play to compare with.

[penga]

Babu - there's loads of trolls on here (like everywhere on the net), but mate, you're a legend and I love your analysis and understanding of the game.  Ignore the shite, the place is much better with you in it!

He has great and knowledgeable analysis on many things I enjoy reading, especially on the round table thread but when someone disagrees with the way he sees something, it is viewed as an attack on him? For example he has pointed out plenty of times to other posters they have biases and pre-conceived ideas about player and situations (most of the time I even agree with like Moreno) and that's fine but not when someone else pulls him up on it? Btw I think it's fine anyway because he provides solid arguments and evidence in most posts which is what I tried to do here as well. Please read my above post and highlight where it can be deemed a "troll". You can even see the videos I posted themselves and the evidence I put forth and make your own mind up whether you agree or disagree. I even agreed that the Echo journalist could have been exhibiting bias whilst also pointing out the same could be said about his views (which is what I focused more on as opposed to him focusing on the Echo journalist), so what is the big problem? This is a discussion forum.

Heck in this overall argument I even agree Mignolet is not a great shot stopper, but in my view I think he does not cost our team as much as he thinks. There seems to be a lot of doom-mongering about him. For me this type of post is going too negative:

Yet in the space of 1 game, we saw him unravel completely. If you watch the game back, you can see how with every tiny error his confidence saps away. Then the errors increase in size due to the lack of confidence. Then panic sets in and he starts making utterly bizarre decisions. Then the defence loses total faith in him completely having witness the bizarre decisions fueled by his inner panic.

His kicking was off, his throwing was off, his punching was off, his decision making was off, his communication was off. He managed to punch a shot at the end that ended up behind him (how?) and saved 1 of 4 shots on target. And the time between one mistake and the next was narrowing each time.

Honestly, I think if that game had continued at the weekend into extra time, he was good for another 5-10 mistakes easy. And that is the crux of my problem. Now that game has ended - what Mignolet starts tonight? Is it Migs from last season? Migs that started the game against Watford? Migs that ended the game against Watford? If the later, we could have serious problems. Watching Mignolet at the weekend was like the Space Odyssey film at the end. Flying through the tunnel of colours feeling absolutely terrified with the sounds ringing in your ears as it cuts back to his terrified face every now and again. Feeling horribly uncomfortable just wanting someone to stop it, make it end, and yet you cannot look away.

So yes, there absolutely should be a questionmark over whether Mignolet starts the game or not because if he picks up where he left off on Saturday we could be in for a LOT of trouble tonight.

Yes I can see him praise Migs after an undoubtedly good game where he proved him wrong or after a good run last season but it seems kind of token compared to the type of post above vs how much leeway he gives Karius and the overall impression when he discusses this issue but maybe that's just me. For the record I don't even have a problem with Karius, I would even like to give him some of the CL games if we qualify to see if he can do better for us on the big stage -  kind of how the Bravo/Ter Stegen thing worked for Barca because I also know there is more to come from Karius than what he showed for us so far but in my opinion Migs is still currently the better GK overall and should keep his main spot in the EPL until we see the above predicted breakdown.

[redmark]

Heck in this overall argument I even agree Mignolet is not a great shot stopper, but in my view I think he does not cost our team as much as he thinks. There seems to be a lot of doom-mongering about him. For me this type of post is going too negative:

... and it's from a different thread. The idea for this thread was partly to circumvent subjective conclusions (whether it's Babu's, yours, mine, or Jurgen Klopp's ), by collating objective evidence: but of goals actually conceded. Following the Watford game, in the Mignolet thread I disagreed with several of the specific criticisms on specific incidents. And whether the 'growing panic' is a valid view or not, did it actually contribute to any goals conceded?.

When we concede a goal, how? where? when? who? Over time, as the sample size grows, hopefully it can start to address - confirm, challenge or refute - some subjective opinions on players.

[BassTunedToRed]

Good idea. Apologies if covered already, but you might want to split free kick goals into direct free kick goals (such as Payet and Luiz last year) from free kick set piece goals (such as Chambers at Arsenal last season) for clarity's sake.

[A Day 2 Remember]

There are two reasons Moreno would have chosen not to do that, both of which I think Klopp would agree with him on.
1) His zone had 2 Liverpool players goal side of 2 Watford players. However the zone the ball - and his man - were moving into was basically a hole in the pitch with 2 Watford players attacking it. He had no way of knowing that Can & Hendo would let Cleverly just run past them into the area Moreno vacates. He has to assume, at minimum, one of them would do something to prevent that happening. He has to assume that the other players are going to take the same level of responsibility as he is for the player they are marking.

2) Pressure on the ball - for Klopp - is the most important thing in defence. Look at the Hoffenheim goal for an example of why. We take a lot of defensive risks in order to be a progressive team but itīs a house of cards that collapses without pressure on the ball. The Vardy chance in the Asia cup was identical in many ways too. No pressure on the left back, clipped ball over the top, etc
The approach you suggest would actually be more the Hodgson approach to defending. Shape above all else. However, this was set to fail anyway given that 2/3 of our midfield was standing at left back. Literally standing too, not making any effort to get back into position.

1) Moreno still made a choice to mark tight and he had time to see the situation derailing and then hold his defensive zone in order to handle the overlapping run and not be in no man's land. His choice then would have been angle his position to encourage a cross into the box or angle so the pass to Cleverly was taken. Either way it could have slowed the play down enough to allow a recovery run on the outside or give the center halfs a chance to tighten up and do their job in the center of the box. I was always a big fan of showing the inside in this situation as I had confidence in my center halfs ability to win aerial duels and as a center half I would prefer to defend a cross into the box than a pull back from the by line.
2) The pressure tends to be emphasized by Klopp in the middle third of the field in order to win back the ball early or disprupt the flow. I'm not sure if the ball pressure is still emphasized in the final third although it may. I'll have to watch closer in the next few games. Defensive positioning will change for free kicks depending where the ball is being played from, this can be the same for in play situations.

Any way the bottom line is the midfield where largely to blame and you have done a good job of taking the emphasis off Moreno as the main culprit. His slip when getting close to #7 did make him stand out so well done for demonstrating the other factors beyond this.

[redmark]

No update .

[Hij]

No update .

[Crosby Nick]

5 clean sheets in our last 6 League games.

[Funky_Gibbons]

First goal.

When the Hoffenheim attacks starts the defence is a good position, everyone where you’d want them to be in a nice straight high line;



As the ball is carried forward and then passed, Matip breaks the line to win the ball in midfield but misses (1st mistake);



Lovren intercepts the ball and tries a first time pass to one of Wijnaldum or Matip (2nd mistake);



The Hoffenheim attacker has continued his run and got beyond Matip and Wijnaldum before the ball arrives, allowing him to intercept and move forward with the ball. Lovren moves forward to press the on running attacker but the ball is played out wide. Both centre backs are now out of position and chasing back.



Moreno makes a valiant effort to get back but not much either him or Mignolet could do about the goal as the ball is arrowed into the bottom corner.

Major responsibility – Lovren

Minor responsibility – Matip

Questions;

We’re a passing/counter-attacking team, should Lovren be expected to just clear his lines in those situations or should we be looking to use those early passes to counter but got it wrong on this occasion?

Should there be a deeper midfielder positioned where Matip tried to intercept the ball, protecting the defence and removing the need for Matip to break the defensive line to try and win the ball higher up the pitch?

Goal two.

As with a lot of our goals, one mistake is followed by others.

Gomez is beaten far too easily by Hübner who dummies a cross but cuts back onto his right foot.



While this is happening Matip follows Szalai (1.93m) into the box.



While Hübner is lining up his cross, Szalai runs off the back of Matip who lets him go, Szalai stands with Lovren who is already marking Uth (1.85m).



The cross is aimed at Szalai and Uth in the box, Lovren is outnumbered and Uth puts a good header in.

Major responsibility – Gomez and Matip

Minor responsibility – Lovren

Lovren is outnumbered in the middle but no-one looks to help, is this an example of poor communication? 

[BabuYagu]

First goal.

When the Hoffenheim attacks starts the defence is a good position, everyone where you’d want them to be in a nice straight high line;


(1)
As the ball is carried forward and then passed, Matip breaks the line to win the ball in midfield but misses (1st mistake);



Lovren intercepts the ball and tries a first time pass to one of Wijnaldum or Matip (2nd mistake);



The Hoffenheim attacker has continued his run and got beyond Matip and Wijnaldum before the ball arrives, allowing him to intercept and move forward with the ball. Lovren moves forward to press the on running attacker but the ball is played out wide. Both centre backs are now out of position and chasing back.



(2) Moreno makes a valiant effort to get back but not much either him or Mignolet could do about the goal as the ball is arrowed into the bottom corner.

Major responsibility – Lovren

Minor responsibility – Matip

Questions;

(3) We’re a passing/counter-attacking team, should Lovren be expected to just clear his lines in those situations or should we be looking to use those early passes to counter but got it wrong on this occasion?

4Should there be a deeper midfielder positioned where Matip tried to intercept the ball, protecting the defence and removing the need for Matip to break the defensive line to try and win the ball higher up the pitch?

Goal two.

As with a lot of our goals, one mistake is followed by others.

Gomez is beaten far too easily by Hübner who dummies a cross but cuts back onto his right foot.



(5) While this is happening Matip follows Szalai (1.93m) into the box.



While Hübner is lining up his cross, Szalai runs off the back of Matip who lets him go, Szalai stands with Lovren who is already marking Uth (1.85m).



The cross is aimed at Szalai and Uth in the box, Lovren is outnumbered and Uth puts a good header in.

Major responsibility – Gomez and Matip

Minor responsibility – Lovren

Lovren is outnumbered in the middle but no-one looks to help, is this an example of poor communication?

Brilliant post mate.

You highlighted nicely why I take issues with center backs at full back. Or big tall bastards there. They usually lack the agility to be able to cope with small, nippy players (Gnabry) or small technical dribblers (Silva). I'll never forget the ease with which Downing destroyed Skrtel at RB one game. It still haunts me. I would be curious to see how good the likes of Marcos Alonso or Ghoulam are in 1-v-1 situations week in week out. Instinctively, I suspect they may have similar trouble as Gomez had on Wednesday dealing with certain types of wingers.

(1) I would like to see better pressure on the ball here from the midfield. Why are we in two square banks of 4? Would a better shape here be a line of 3 with Henderson behind in that space Matip needed to step into? Should the defence be dropping off here already? Are they too high?

(2) Watching that back, is Moreno positioning himself to cover for Lovren? Should Mane have been back picking up the man Moreno is ignoring to do so? I think Moreno has to watch the guy central there and not get stretched out horizontally leaving a big space between him and Lovren. But to do so, someone needs to be watching the RWB then.

(3) I think there can be an element of both. He could clear it towards Salah's area of the pitch. We lose the ball as a result and it's not a big problem immediately. Lovren's pass meant we lost possession in a Hoffenheim overload. In gegenpressing, one of the suggested things to do is make passes/clearances into areas you have an overload or an isolated 1-v-1 situation.

(4) I mentioned already but I think we should be a 1-3 midfield than a straight 4 there. It's weird because assymetry in midfield was textbook Dortmund for pressing reasons so that the ball carrier could be pressed at different depths all over the pitch. And yet here we are again looking at a Hodgson 2 banks of four. I cannot imagine we are meant to be doing that. Then again, I've seen it twice now in the two Hoffenheim games (see their goal in the first game) and that leads me to believe we are doing this intentionally and I cannot for the life of me think why. The only possible explanation is we are setting up for containment and not pressing here. But if so, we are nowhere near compact enough and you cannot play a high line without pressing. So either way, we are doing something wrong. Imagine Salah tucked in where the ref is with the two central players stretched out to make a diamond - that immediately looks far harder to play through.

(5) The big problem I see here, and why I cannot put much blame on Matip, is that guy standing in a huge amount of space just inside our box. Imagine, if you will, Matip tracks Szalai, that then leaves a huge space for him to run into near post and a very easy goal. In fairness to Milner, he moves back and marks him, but I think if Matip had moved and that guy made a run behind Hendo into that space, nobody would have stopped it.

Therefore whoever was meant to be marking that guy and let him just wander into that huge space - and looking at it I would say Gini/Milner that that responsibility.

This is one of those goals I really struggle with. Firstly - Mignolet doesn't look right here. His movement towards the ball reduces his ability to deal with the shot. Should he have been rooted to his line? I struggle to blame Lovren because one player is physically barging him while the other has a clean jump on him. I struggle to blame Matip because I can see how vacating that space would be a problem. I struggle to blame Moreno for Lovren being outnumbered as he is protecting that run in at the back post.

This leads me to firstly suggest that is a very good goal. That movement from Szalai creates a bunch of problems that we aren't catered to deal with at all. Even if that spare guy wasn't roaming with intent in our box, Matip still cannot really vacate that post. Therefore instead I look at the ball. Gomez was beaten - should Gini be sprinting over to the ball. Should Henderson be narrowing that gap to prevent him picking out people in the box with Gini moving into the space behind Henderson?  I struggle to blame our center backs there though. Gomez (major) & midfield for me. Although I struggle to know which of the midfield 3 should be doing what. I think Hendo should press the crosser, Gini/Milner should be closer to the spare man. Mignolet I have a question mark- because I don't know the answer. I think his movement prevents him dealing with the shot properly. I think he saves that if he doesn't move forward and back when the cross comes in... or at least has a better chance of doing so.

[BabuYagu]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/h-czroPht04" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/h-czroPht04</a>

Goals are there.
Hoffenheim Goal 1 = 1:40
Hoffenheim Goal 2 = 2:30

Check out Migs movement on the second and see what you all think.

[So Howard Philips]

In the two games that Gomez has come on late to sub Trent (Watford and Hoffenheim) he has been instrumental in the lead up to two goals.

Hopefully this will be part of a very steep learning curve.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Brilliant post mate.

You highlighted nicely why I take issues with center backs at full back. Or big tall bastards there. They usually lack the agility to be able to cope with small, nippy players (Gnabry) or small technical dribblers (Silva). I'll never forget the ease with which Downing destroyed Skrtel at RB one game. It still haunts me. I would be curious to see how good the likes of Marcos Alonso or Ghoulam are in 1-v-1 situations week in week out. Instinctively, I suspect they may have similar trouble as Gomez had on Wednesday dealing with certain types of wingers.

(1) I would like to see better pressure on the ball here from the midfield. Why are we in two square banks of 4? Would a better shape here be a line of 3 with Henderson behind in that space Matip needed to step into? Should the defence be dropping off here already? Are they too high?

(2) Watching that back, is Moreno positioning himself to cover for Lovren? Should Mane have been back picking up the man Moreno is ignoring to do so? I think Moreno has to watch the guy central there and not get stretched out horizontally leaving a big space between him and Lovren. But to do so, someone needs to be watching the RWB then.

(3) I think there can be an element of both. He could clear it towards Salah's area of the pitch. We lose the ball as a result and it's not a big problem immediately. Lovren's pass meant we lost possession in a Hoffenheim overload. In gegenpressing, one of the suggested things to do is make passes/clearances into areas you have an overload or an isolated 1-v-1 situation.

(4) I mentioned already but I think we should be a 1-3 midfield than a straight 4 there. It's weird because assymetry in midfield was textbook Dortmund for pressing reasons so that the ball carrier could be pressed at different depths all over the pitch. And yet here we are again looking at a Hodgson 2 banks of four. I cannot imagine we are meant to be doing that. Then again, I've seen it twice now in the two Hoffenheim games (see their goal in the first game) and that leads me to believe we are doing this intentionally and I cannot for the life of me think why. The only possible explanation is we are setting up for containment and not pressing here. But if so, we are nowhere near compact enough and you cannot play a high line without pressing. So either way, we are doing something wrong. Imagine Salah tucked in where the ref is with the two central players stretched out to make a diamond - that immediately looks far harder to play through.

(5) The big problem I see here, and why I cannot put much blame on Matip, is that guy standing in a huge amount of space just inside our box. Imagine, if you will, Matip tracks Szalai, that then leaves a huge space for him to run into near post and a very easy goal. In fairness to Milner, he moves back and marks him, but I think if Matip had moved and that guy made a run behind Hendo into that space, nobody would have stopped it.

Therefore whoever was meant to be marking that guy and let him just wander into that huge space - and looking at it I would say Gini/Milner that that responsibility.

This is one of those goals I really struggle with. Firstly - Mignolet doesn't look right here. His movement towards the ball reduces his ability to deal with the shot. Should he have been rooted to his line? I struggle to blame Lovren because one player is physically barging him while the other has a clean jump on him. I struggle to blame Matip because I can see how vacating that space would be a problem. I struggle to blame Moreno for Lovren being outnumbered as he is protecting that run in at the back post.

This leads me to firstly suggest that is a very good goal. That movement from Szalai creates a bunch of problems that we aren't catered to deal with at all. Even if that spare guy wasn't roaming with intent in our box, Matip still cannot really vacate that post. Therefore instead I look at the ball. Gomez was beaten - should Gini be sprinting over to the ball. Should Henderson be narrowing that gap to prevent him picking out people in the box with Gini moving into the space behind Henderson?  I struggle to blame our center backs there though. Gomez (major) & midfield for me. Although I struggle to know which of the midfield 3 should be doing what. I think Hendo should press the crosser, Gini/Milner should be closer to the spare man. Mignolet I have a question mark- because I don't know the answer. I think his movement prevents him dealing with the shot properly. I think he saves that if he doesn't move forward and back when the cross comes in... or at least has a better chance of doing so.

(1) I like the shape and position of the defensive line but I agree, if Henderson is in that area that Matip eventually attacks then there no goal. Would really like to have seen Henderson here;


(2) I'm not shy when it comes to criticising Moreno's positioning but personally I couldn't fault it here. It all unfolded so fast that he'd need lightening reactions to have reacted to what unfolded. In an ideal world he get's back and makes the block but that would be nitpicking.

(3) I think Klopp wants us to pass out and the pass is on for a moment but the Hoffenheim attacker is on his front foot while Wijnaldum and Matip are very flat footed. 

(4) Agreed.

(5) As a defender, your first priority should be the player closest to goal, it's pretty clear Hübner is going to cross the ball but Matip doesn't follow his man. If the ball is cut back and the player in acres of space scored, then we look at the midfield, but when a player scores just outside the six yard box then, as a central defender, you need to ask yourself questions. I wouldn't put all the blame on Matip there but he deserves a majority of it IMO.

[BabuYagu]

(1) I like the shape and position of the defensive line but I agree, if Henderson is in that area that Matip eventually attacks then there no goal. Would really like to have seen Henderson here;


(2) I'm not shy when it comes to criticising Moreno's positioning but personally I couldn't fault it here. It all unfolded so fast that he'd need lightening reactions to have reacted to what unfolded. In an ideal world he get's back and makes the block but that would be nitpicking.

(3) I think Klopp wants us to pass out and the pass is on for a moment but the Hoffenheim attacker is on his front foot while Wijnaldum and Matip are very flat footed. 

(4) Agreed.

(5) As a defender, your first priority should be the player closest to goal, it's pretty clear Hübner is going to cross the ball but Matip doesn't follow his man. If the ball is cut back and the player in acres of space scored, then we look at the midfield, but when a player scores just outside the six yard box then, as a central defender, you need to ask yourself questions. I wouldn't put all the blame on Matip there but he deserves a majority of it IMO.

Yeah looking at that picture again - 10+ yards of space in front, there is another 10+ yards of space between defence and midfield (a problem if someone moves into that space onto an angled through ball) then 35+ yards from defence to keeper. That's just way too much spaces and no pressure on the ball.

We seem to be neither compact or pressing and playing in straight lines defensively. Three words I would never use to describe a Klopp side.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

(1) I like the shape and position of the defensive line but I agree, if Henderson is in that area that Matip eventually attacks then there no goal. Would really like to have seen Henderson here;


(2) I'm not shy when it comes to criticising Moreno's positioning but personally I couldn't fault it here. It all unfolded so fast that he'd need lightening reactions to have reacted to what unfolded. In an ideal world he get's back and makes the block but that would be nitpicking.

(3) I think Klopp wants us to pass out and the pass is on for a moment but the Hoffenheim attacker is on his front foot while Wijnaldum and Matip are very flat footed. 

(4) Agreed.

(5) As a defender, your first priority should be the player closest to goal, it's pretty clear Hübner is going to cross the ball but Matip doesn't follow his man. If the ball is cut back and the player in acres of space scored, then we look at the midfield, but when a player scores just outside the six yard box then, as a central defender, you need to ask yourself questions. I wouldn't put all the blame on Matip there but he deserves a majority of it IMO.

(3) Lovren should be playing this out of defence, but given his man has just run past him he should have the composure to take a touch and choose the right pass. If he takes a touch he'll soon see that the momentum of the players in front of him massively favours the Hoffenheim midfielder, at which point he can either play it wider around him (to Wiji) or lump over Salah's side of the pitch where there is no immediate threat. This is a Lovren mistake for me all day long, as he's got the ball to feet and not under huge pressure. Matip made a call and slightly misjudged it under pressure, with plenty of players covering in behind him.

(5) I think Matip needs to be touch tight in that situation, everyone can see the ball is about to crossed in, so even if it's just getting in the attackers way, he should be in the mixer making life difficult. However, I really think we need to take this goal back a bit. It actually all stems from a throw. Gomez and Wiji double up on the throw receiver - all good - but a relatively simply triangle rotation leaves Hendo coming out of position to close the ball carrier even though he is being tracked by Wiji. In doing so he leaves his man just inside our box. Matip and Lovren both have a man (Hoff are pushing lots of men forward by this stage) and Gomez is forced to come across leaving his man wide open on the left (a less dangerous position, but still a very good crossing position). As the ball goes out wide Gomez runs out too fast to block the cross leaving him exposed to a simple dummy (definitely lacking the nimbleness mentioned by Babu), and also leaving the extra man (Hendo's man originally) alone in the box giving Matip a difficult decision to make positionally. So, a few things from this:
(a) Why are we getting so overloaded from a relatively simple triangle rotation?
(b) Could this go down in the 'set-piece' category, as it seemed like a rehearsed triangle rotation and switch, to leave a crosser in acres of space?
(c) Is Gomez a good sub for a tiring TAA?
(d) Could Hendo have done better? Did he need to leave his man to close the attackers space when Wiji was already all over him? And could he have got back to his man more quickly leaving Gomez to just focus on the crosser?

[BabuYagu]

(3) Lovren should be playing this out of defence, but given his man has just run past him he should have the composure to take a touch and choose the right pass. If he takes a touch he'll soon see that the momentum of the players in front of him massively favours the Hoffenheim midfielder, at which point he can either play it wider around him (to Wiji) or lump over Salah's side of the pitch where there is no immediate threat. This is a Lovren mistake for me all day long, as he's got the ball to feet and not under huge pressure. Matip made a call and slightly misjudged it under pressure, with plenty of players covering in behind him.

(5) I think Matip needs to be touch tight in that situation, everyone can see the ball is about to crossed in, so even if it's just getting in the attackers way, he should be in the mixer making life difficult. However, I really think we need to take this goal back a bit. It actually all stems from a throw. Gomez and Wiji double up on the throw receiver - all good - but a relatively simply triangle rotation leaves Hendo coming out of position to close the ball carrier even though he is being tracked by Wiji. In doing so he leaves his man just inside our box. Matip and Lovren both have a man (Hoff are pushing lots of men forward by this stage) and Gomez is forced to come across leaving his man wide open on the left (a less dangerous position, but still a very good crossing position). As the ball goes out wide Gomez runs out too fast to block the cross leaving him exposed to a simple dummy (definitely lacking the nimbleness mentioned by Babu), and also leaving the extra man (Hendo's man originally) alone in the box giving Matip a difficult decision to make positionally. So, a few things from this:
(a) Why are we getting so overloaded from a relatively simple triangle rotation?
(b) Could this go down in the 'set-piece' category, as it seemed like a rehearsed triangle rotation and switch, to leave a crosser in acres of space?
(c) Is Gomez a good sub for a tiring TAA?
(d) Could Hendo have done better? Did he need to leave his man to close the attackers space when Wiji was already all over him? And could he have got back to his man more quickly leaving Gomez to just focus on the crosser?

Brilliant post also. Thanks for this. I hadn't gone back to the start of this phase of play, just commented on what Funky showed, lesson learned.

I say all this without seeing this early part again (yet).
a) I am curious where Salah is in all this. Shouldn't he be back there too? That would take care of the lowest point of the triangle perhaps? Or making the wing back once the throw is taken. But I agree, that is poor.
b) I think so, yes. For me a set piece ends whenever the ball is either recycled or turned over.
c) For me, no. But then with Clyne out and TAA getting injured, I suppose bringing Gomez on to help with the set pieces seemed a good solution. I also have issues with Milner in those 1-v-1 situations as he seems to either get beaten or foul his man too more often than not - probably due to a lack of explosiveness & age so putting Milner in there and bringing someone into midfield might not have made much difference, but I would prefer seeing Milner there than Gomez. I suppose as RB's go, Gomez is as good a 3rd choice as most clubs have though.
d) I think if he is leaving that man, it has to be passed on. He's in a really dangerous spot. You give him the ball there and he can receive on the half turn and get a shot off without a player within 5 yards. Plus he didn't really do anything when he left his man. If you are going to leave someone to close the ball down, you need to follow that action through. Instead he stands off and the guy has plenty of time to pick out the two in the box. So either stay with your man and let someone else sort out the wide areas (Gini, Salah & Gomez) or close down properly and hand off that free man to Gini. It's seems he tried to do both, but in actuality did neither.

[BigJimFinn]

Goal two.

As with a lot of our goals, one mistake is followed by others.

Gomez is beaten far too easily by Hübner who dummies a cross but cuts back onto his right foot.



While this is happening Matip follows Szalai (1.93m) into the box.



While Hübner is lining up his cross, Szalai runs off the back of Matip who lets him go, Szalai stands with Lovren who is already marking Uth (1.85m).



The cross is aimed at Szalai and Uth in the box, Lovren is outnumbered and Uth puts a good header in.

Major responsibility – Gomez and Matip

Minor responsibility – Lovren

Lovren is outnumbered in the middle but no-one looks to help, is this an example of poor communication?

Great analysis in this thread from many veteran posters! As I love this kind of Xīs and O's microwankery (the Finnish phrase would refer to making love to punctuation) I decided to wade in despite having no coaching credentials in football. Please be gentle...

The pic before the second goal shows to me that Hoffenheim have really created the situation perfectly. Four players inside the box in dangerous scoring-threat positions and properly spaced from each other. Ball near the edge of the box with no pressure, options for delivery to all four players and plenty of time to pick one out. We could only prevent a chance by reacting very quickly to mark all four threats tightly or put pressure in front of the ball, preferably both. The players who could have done that were Milner (to get goalside of the attacker in central position, which he tries but far too late), Matip (who could then stick to his original man) and Salah or Gini (to close down the ball with a sprint after Gomez sells himself out, probably should have been Salah as Gini has #17 to worry about). I agree with Babu that Migs' last undecisive step forward takes him both out of position and out of stance to make a save, so he doesn't even try. I also think that Lovren is not really to blame: despite appearing to lose a duel, he is in the correct position and being doubled up by two big attackers.

So I didn't really find anything that wasn't already said, and the conclusion is unsurprising: when a well-coached attacking team pushes numbers forward (7 white shirts in the pic), defensive contributions are required from everybody in order to prevent a chance. Here the obvious initial mistake is by Gomez, but half the team fails to prevent or fix the problem with their actions. Hoffenheim deserves a lot of credit for this team-created goal, and generally for not surrendering after our 20 minute barrage.

I will definitely keep reading this thread, and hope to find something original to contribute before posting again. Keep up the great work, Babu, Funky & co!

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Brilliant post also. Thanks for this. I hadn't gone back to the start of this phase of play, just commented on what Funky showed, lesson learned.

I say all this without seeing this early part again (yet).
a) I am curious where Salah is in all this. Shouldn't he be back there too? That would take care of the lowest point of the triangle perhaps? Or making the wing back once the throw is taken. But I agree, that is poor.
b) I think so, yes. For me a set piece ends whenever the ball is either recycled or turned over.
c) For me, no. But then with Clyne out and TAA getting injured, I suppose bringing Gomez on to help with the set pieces seemed a good solution. I also have issues with Milner in those 1-v-1 situations as he seems to either get beaten or foul his man too more often than not - probably due to a lack of explosiveness & age so putting Milner in there and bringing someone into midfield might not have made much difference, but I would prefer seeing Milner there than Gomez. I suppose as RB's go, Gomez is as good a 3rd choice as most clubs have though.
d) I think if he is leaving that man, it has to be passed on. He's in a really dangerous spot. You give him the ball there and he can receive on the half turn and get a shot off without a player within 5 yards. Plus he didn't really do anything when he left his man. If you are going to leave someone to close the ball down, you need to follow that action through. Instead he stands off and the guy has plenty of time to pick out the two in the box. So either stay with your man and let someone else sort out the wide areas (Gini, Salah & Gomez) or close down properly and hand off that free man to Gini. It's seems he tried to do both, but in actuality did neither.

For those interested:

http://www.replaymatches.com/2017/08/liverpool-vs-hoffenheim-full-match.html

Go to second half link - about 33mins in.

Salah is loosely shadowing Demirbay following an earlier man-switch with Wiji. Difficult to find any fault with his positioning.

Watching it again, I'm inclined to think Hendo moves out to block a potential shooting chance (Wij is a little behind Zuber at that stage) whilst also blocking the passing lane to his man, this is what forces Zuber to turn back. I think maybe Gomez is a bit overzealous closing down Hendo's man, as the pass is not on at all (could he have known that in the split second he had to make a decision?), and should've kept a closer eye on the crosser.

Given it's set-piece near our goal I do think each of Hendo, Wij, Gomez and Matip should all be tighter to their men. They're making it far to easy for Hoff to play around us on the edge of our box and Gomez is the chief culprit in the goal by allowing the crosser too much space by being too easily sold by the dummy.

Whilst Lovren is blameless, VVD wins the header in the box. 

[RedForeverTT]

Given it's set-piece near our goal I do think each of Hendo, Wij, Gomez and Matip should all be tighter to their men. They're making it far to easy for Hoff to play around us on the edge of our box and Gomez is the chief culprit in the goal by allowing the crosser too much space by being too easily sold by the dummy.

Whilst Lovren is blameless, VVD wins the header in the box. 

Our right hand side collapsed as soon as TAA was sub with Gomez. Man, I may have jinxed Gomez by saying he was good 3 weeks ago.

Being sold a dummy so easily really got on my tits. No way should a top player be sold a dummy that easily and so slow to recover like it was a Sunday pub game. The likes of Sanchez, Martial, Mahrez would ripped Gomez into pieces every one of those 15mins he played and would have resulted in more than 1 goal.

[redmark]

Great discussion - exactly what I hoped for with the thread idea .

Just a quick point, until I get more time:

(4) I mentioned already but I think we should be a 1-3 midfield than a straight 4 there. It's weird because assymetry in midfield was textbook Dortmund for pressing reasons so that the ball carrier could be pressed at different depths all over the pitch. And yet here we are again looking at a Hodgson 2 banks of four. I cannot imagine we are meant to be doing that. Then again, I've seen it twice now in the two Hoffenheim games (see their goal in the first game) and that leads me to believe we are doing this intentionally and I cannot for the life of me think why. The only possible explanation is we are setting up for containment and not pressing here.

Compare to our 4th goal - it doesn't happen, without the initial flat three in central midfield that we see here* for their first. The straight line is what enables any of the three to press in a straight line ahead. For our 4th, Henderson was directly in line with Demirbay who received with his back to Henderson, felt the pressure, miscontrolled and underhit/bobbled the pass to Vogt, inviting Henderson to continue the press until Vogt rather bottled the challenge.

(Note, as an addendum to various discussions about stats and scouting, and the possible suitability of players like Demirbay and Vogt - the scouting report on that game would be that Demirbay certainly, and Vogt possibly, went missing at times when under pressure and the receiving end).

Back to Hoffenheim's goal, the question I think isn't about Henderson's initial positioning in a flat line with Can and Wijnaldum either side - *because actually they're never quite a straight line in that move. Just before Funky's first still, Henderson had actually been rather deeper and on replay seems to be moving quickly as though he realised he was too deep. He then 'overruns' his position, because the line really should be level with Wijnaldum (so about halfway between where he is - though he's still moving forwards - and the tip of the suggested arrow); Can is already moving to the ball carrier. Henderson thus ends up in no-mans and almost has to go to the ball by default.

But - shit happens. We still have opportunities to stop that goal, which ends up not requiring much more than a straight ball dinked in the general direction of the centre of defence. I'd actually put responsibility for two little mistakes on Lovren (his reaction movement after the misplaced pass as well as the pass itself), and bump Matip's responsibility up a bit. There's no real reason for him to make that movement towards the ball at all, and if he does, he has to get something on it, not wave his left leg at it (his reaction to the ball from Lovren isn't ideal, either). In essence, despite Henderson's initial movement, the two CBs allow a simple ball into the space in front of them within seconds to take both of themselves out of the game, leaving three Hoffenheim players bearing down on two full backs.

[redmark]

Our right hand side collapsed as soon as TAA was sub with Gomez. Man, I may have jinxed Gomez by saying he was good 3 weeks ago.

Being sold a dummy so easily really got on my tits. No way should a top player be sold a dummy that easily and so slow to recover like it was a Sunday pub game. The likes of Sanchez, Martial, Mahrez would ripped Gomez into pieces every one of those 15mins he played and would have resulted in more than 1 goal.

Gomez is good. But he isn't a full back.

[PoetryInMotion]

I stumbled across this video and this an excellent analysis of the Liverpool 4-2 Hoffenheim game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXw8eVRBbSc

For their first goal, Hoffenheim played it smart by making dummy runs inside and then checking back. There are two mistakes here actually. Matip steps out to block the ball/mark the attacker between the lines and misses it. The second one is on Lovren for making a bad pass instead of a clearance.

For the second goal, two mistakes again. Gomez was not tight on their wide attacker and Matip lets free his opposite number to create a 2 on 1 vs Lovren for the header.

Lots of changes in shape and ideas in the game that were interesting. Us being 3 on 3 vs their 3 man Central Defense and their Far Wing Back coming inside caused them a lot of problems when we switched play/made runs in behind. This really helped us in the 20 minute cameo after which Nagelsmann changed their shape. Henderson was so crucial tactically in terms of switching play and pressing.

[redmark]

This is one of those goals I really struggle with. Firstly - Mignolet doesn't look right here. His movement towards the ball reduces his ability to deal with the shot. Should he have been rooted to his line? I struggle to blame Lovren because one player is physically barging him while the other has a clean jump on him. I struggle to blame Matip because I can see how vacating that space would be a problem. I struggle to blame Moreno for Lovren being outnumbered as he is protecting that run in at the back post.

This leads me to firstly suggest that is a very good goal. That movement from Szalai creates a bunch of problems that we aren't catered to deal with at all. Even if that spare guy wasn't roaming with intent in our box, Matip still cannot really vacate that post. Therefore instead I look at the ball. Gomez was beaten - should Gini be sprinting over to the ball. Should Henderson be narrowing that gap to prevent him picking out people in the box with Gini moving into the space behind Henderson?  I struggle to blame our center backs there though. Gomez (major) & midfield for me. Although I struggle to know which of the midfield 3 should be doing what. I think Hendo should press the crosser, Gini/Milner should be closer to the spare man. Mignolet I have a question mark- because I don't know the answer. I think his movement prevents him dealing with the shot properly. I think he saves that if he doesn't move forward and back when the cross comes in... or at least has a better chance of doing so.

Two things on Mignolet on this one - the forward/backwards movement I think is fine - actually, almost standard for keepers in this situation - except that Mignolet never stops moving back. By the time the ball is approaching someone's head, the keeper should be planting/bouncing and ready to react. He's still shuffling backwards and can't push off.

The second is that of all players on the pitch, Mignolet is the one who can best see that they've doubled up on Lovren. In that situation, I think the keeper has a responsibility to continue coming for a ball he might not usually come for, try to put his fist through it, clatter into at least one of the Hoffenheim players and - if worst comes to worst, he misses and they get a head to it - possibly get the keepers' usual benefit of the doubt and get a free kick from that coming together of four players.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Great discussion - exactly what I hoped for with the thread idea .

Just a quick point, until I get more time:

Compare to our 4th goal - it doesn't happen, without the initial flat three in central midfield that we see here* for their first. The straight line is what enables any of the three to press in a straight line ahead. For our 4th, Henderson was directly in line with Demirbay who received with his back to Henderson, felt the pressure, miscontrolled and underhit/bobbled the pass to Vogt, inviting Henderson to continue the press until Vogt rather bottled the challenge.

(Note, as an addendum to various discussions about stats and scouting, and the possible suitableness of players like Demirbay and Vogt - the scouting report on that game would be that Demirbay certainly, and Vogt possibly, went missing at times when under pressure and the receiving end).

Back to Hoffenheim's goal, the question I think isn't about Henderson's initial positioning in a flat line with Can and Wijnaldum either side - *because actually they're never quite a straight line in that move. Just before Funky's first still, Henderson had actually been rather deeper and on replay seems to be moving quickly as though he realised he was too deep. He then 'overruns' his position, because the line really should be level with Wijnaldum (so about halfway between where he is - though he's still moving forwards - and the tip of the suggested arrow); Can is already moving to the ball carrier. Henderson thus ends up in no-mans and almost has to go to the ball by default.

But - shit happens. We still have opportunities to stop that goal, which ends up not requiring much more than a straight ball dinked in the general direction of the centre of defence. I'd actually put responsibility for two little mistakes on Lovren (his reaction movement after the misplaced pass as well as the pass itself), and bump Matip's responsibility up a bit. There's no real reason for him to make that movement towards the ball at all, and if he does, he has to get something on it, not wave his left leg at it (his reaction to the ball from Lovren isn't ideal, either). In essence, despite Henderson's initial movement, the two CBs allow a simple ball into the space in front of them within seconds to take both of themselves out of the game, leaving three Hoffenheim players bearing down on two full backs.

Good analysis, I agree with most of that.

[rob1966]

Good find Funky. Although I thought the Echo journalist's narrative for the West Ham freekick sounded agenda driven so thought I would look it up.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ITacxbgciYc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ITacxbgciYc</a>

One thing a lot of people fail to take into account (I was one until a Derby in 06 I think it was) is how little time the keeper has to react to a free kick that close to goal. What drove it home was being in the Kop one Derby, to the left of the goal. I was at exactly the same level as the Everton keeper. We had a free kick and I had an almost identical view as the keeper (obviously further back), but I was seeing what he saw. You couldn't see the ball through the wall, Alonso runs up and I just saw the ball as it cleared the wall and bang it hit the advertising boards, I was shocked at how fast the ball was travelling and how little time to react the keeper has once he gets first sight of it.

In that freekick, its looks to me like Lovren has tried to anticipate where Payet is going to hit the ball, based on the shape of the run up and moved to block it, but to be honest, even if he stayed still I doubt he would have got to it. The curl is perfect and drags the ball away from Karius, its just a great free kick

[BoRed]

Looks like no one wanted to talk about the City game, but I wouldn't want the thread to disappear, so I'll just bump it with this from another thread:

Babu, this is for you my friend.

Because of a variety of issues (mostly becoming a new dad), I have refrained from posting too much on Simon after his first couple years. 
As such, and not having read much of the background to this discussion, I'll frame my response as an evaluation of him today with each of the goals against Man City (and rank them in terms of my view as priorities/importance to long term performance) as a backdrop.

Prior to the goal, Migs had two rather easy but nice saves against KDB and Fernandinho.

Goal #1:  https://youtu.be/1hs1kFXHWuk
 
In a game like this the first goal tends to be a decisive advantage - as it did today.  In terms of Simon's progression of plays, they are:

    1) he decides to play a long ball centrally down the pitch
    2) this creates a second ball opportunity for both teams that eventually gets cleaned up KDB
    3) Aguero points and KDB delivers in between Matip (higher Up) and Klavan (Jesus creates a rub situation) 
    4) Aguero gets to the ball in three steps while Mignolet moves slowly towards the penalty spot
    5) Mignolet correctly reads Aguero's first touch, but it is too far away to impose immediate pressure
    6) Aguero cuts Migs and slots it home

What should a goal keeper of his level be doing --- or what could have been
     a) Drive the ball at angles to the heads of our players closer to the side line or flanks (NOT A HUGE COACHING POINT)
     b) As the second ball gets sorted out --- organize your CB's - yell at Ragnar to step and tighten/Joel to help close the gap (BIG ISSUE)
     c) GK'er starting point --- Migs tends to be deeper than most GK'ers; he could have been 5 yards higher (SWEEPING THE BACK 4)
     d) No guarantee though that Aguero does not cut him earlier (EXPLOSION TO THE BALL AFTER FIRST TOUCH --- NOT GREAT)
     e) Entire play was too easy for Aguero (THIS RESIDES ON ALL OF MATIP/KLAVAN/MIGNOLET --- but not long term problem for Simon)

GOAL #2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4soNFl7ibhI

This is where this game was lost in my opinion.  If we could have gotten into half only one down --- without Sadio, we might have been able to construct a plan of how to deal with his loss.  Instead, we could not handle the pressure and were down 2-0 and a man.  And this play is symptom of something Liverpool has struggled with a lot over the last 4 years (although it has tended to be on Moreno's side in).  Here is what Simon sees and what he does.

     1) KDB again gets played in to the left flank (3 minutes left in the half btw), TAA is late and desperately tries to block cross
     2) KDB cuts it back to his favored right while this gives Man City runners an extra 3-4 seconds to overload the backside
     3) Mignolet is in a good position to the see the cross but he does not appear to communicate much/hard to know- (communication)
         as Klavan has no idea Jesus is behind (watching the ball) and appears to be overly worried about Aguero in front
    4) Two things here: whipped ball is played in by KDB (TAA should have let the left foot come in - less accurate and easier to deal with)
         Moreno is too small to see it coming from the taller players in front, so Klavan does not know and Moreno cannot see
    5)  KDB is lethal with his right foot and picks out Jesus for header goal 6 yards out. 
    6) There is no Liverpool player within 3 yards of Jesus --- FREE HEADER

What should a keeper being doing at this level
          a) KDB's crossing is always a problem -- need to prioritize his danger from pressured/unpressured, left/right foot etc. - (TAA fuck up)
          b) Simon should have scanned the six yard box prior to the cut back on KDB's right foot (2-3 seconds to assess)
          c) Simon communicates what he sees before the ball is played (its a 3 vs 2 for Man City on the back post --- plus Gini got beat)
          d) Simon makes RIGHT decision to not go (whipped in crosses are more dangerous, take less time, more GK'er error)
          e) Simon really has no shot at this --- bang bang play.  He makes a stab save attempt but its a free header from the six
                *** Not an issue with Simon here and crossing.  But is an issue with CB's, LB and prioritizing crossing angles

GOAL #3

Capitulation here.

      1.  Fernandinho plays a penetrating pass between Emre Can and Matip in our back line to Aguero
      2.  Aguero dribbles into the box, engages Migs and passes it off for a goal for Jesus running along next to him

Almost the same play as the first goal, but substitute Can for Klavan.   Migs' starting point could have been higher, but really he would have been scored on anyway --- if you watch Emre's response --- just shit.  He should have contested the ball but got punished by its pace and accuracy.  The gap between the center backs was deep and we did not seem to have effective fronting of the CB zone by Henderson or other midfield players.  This kind of pass was too fucking easy all day. 

I seem to remember Aguero not getting a touch in the 18 yard box at Anfield a year ago.  I guess he and Pep took this personally.

NOTHING HERE FOR MIGS --  helpless really.  Only thing to do is help him put it behind him.


GOAL #4

Hard to analyze too much by this point if I am honest.  Not that it is unimportant, but the physical, mental, and tactical nous has left the building.  All that is left is instinct when you get in these situations.  And these impulses are not something to base a lot of information upon.  In other words, you cannot treat the last goal in a drubbing as the same as the first goal in an undecided contest. 

However, this is an educational process, so lets see.

1.  Man City spring their left wing just north of the box on the side (Mendy)
2.  Sane dribbles centrally taking on Emre Can and plays a give and go with Mendy
3.  Can leaves Sane and tries to get to Mendy (unsuccessfully) -- he passes his runner onto Milner & Matip
4.  Neither get there, Mendy drives it across to Sane, he one touches it into the near post for #4
               
What should Simon do in this scenario
     a.  Talk to Emre Can ---- if you leave Sane, you have to get the ball from Mendy
     b.  While near post goals chaffe my ass like red licorice and cheap beer, it was a bang bang play at the 6 yard box unattended
     c.   Mignolet's could have exploded to the ball helping his angle play,
           but again he is not the quickest keeper (if he goes and does not get the ball off a driven rope), he is in more trouble.

**** NOT GOOD, BUT NOT SOMETHING I WOULD EXPECT SIMON TO BE BLAMED FOR

GOAL #5

You guys are probably getting tired of this kind of analysis and know where we are headed.  But thus far, I am much more concerned about our team's performance than Simon's performance.  And who is to say, that they do not feed off of one another.  Our play seemed to go south after TAA got chastised for taking too long on throw ins. 

   1.  Sane gets the ball at the 23 yard line on the right side.  Has lunch.  Orders room service.  Cleans his andirons. 
   2.  He decides to curl a worldly in the upper 90 of the goal keepers right side.

There are three remarkable facts from this ----
       a) No one came even close to closing him down - 4 different players had a chance
       b) tens of million pounds signing AOC turns his back on the shot --- allowing for Sane to clear his obstacle
       c) five goals against and the only player we really touched was Ederson


Summary

Mignolet was let down today by his teammates, in my estimation.  The facts? 

Well, each goal showed very little defensive pressure being applied to Aguero, Jesus or Sane.  When this happens as an attacker, you tend to relax, make better decisions, and provide composed finishes attuned to world class players. 

Secondly, I am not sure any one corrective effort by Simon would have prevented these goals.  Higher starting positions, so what?  Aguero still gets there first.  Exploding to the ball with more conviction, this would be fodder for another red card and probably penalties.  Going for more crosses?  Well, we saw how that worked in the game already, luckily Jesus was offsides.  Simon is playing to his potential, but the team did not today.

Lastly, if there is one area I would expect Achertburg to sort out with the GK'ers union at Liverpool, it would communication, position and danger alertedness.  Man City can explode upon you --- bang bang goal.  They did this three times at least today - one touch plays in or on goal.  Simon has got to do a better job of sensing danger and helping organize the defense a way out of it before it happens.  He could have done that twice today (1st two goals definitely).

The one insight for fellow readers on this topic is how connected our problems with set plays are intertwined/ingrained in our approach to dealing with crosses defensively.  Our fragility here and lack of a "thermostat" to sort out different feedback systems in the moment is the main reason we concede so many stupid goals on set plays.   

Something to think about and engage my fellow RAWKITES!.

Love,
Trend