Topic: China - a Fascist State

[Broad Spectrum]

China's state-run TV just ran a show saying that Ukraine's fate is that of Taiwan so, yeah, things are going great.

Whilst their genocide program of Uyghurs is still in full swing. Absolutely grim.

[farawayred]

China's state-run TV just ran a show saying that Ukraine's fate is that of Taiwan so, yeah, things are going great.

That has surely been synchronized with Putin during his visit there. I predicted that he wouldn't invade Ukraine before the end of the Olympic games; he wouldn't risk distracting the attention away form China in their glory moment as he needs their support.

Any resolution on Ukraine in the UN Security Council will be vetoed by Russia and abstained by China, and the opposite act will happen on Taiwan.

[Tobelius]

They agreed this during the olympics:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-china-unveil-a-pact-against-america-and-the-west

They also signed a 30 year contract to supply 10 billion cubic meters/year of gas via a new pipeline to China.

Looks like they're properly in bed together now and can't help but to think that pact with China has emboldened Putin to try something like this apparent attempt to reinstate the Soviet Union,vice versa in the future with Taiwan you'd think.

[Jshooters]

1984 is my favourite book and these manoeuvres have a hint about them of the birth of Eastasia

[bradders1011]

1984 is my favourite book and these manoeuvres have a hint about them of the birth of Eastasia

Neo-Bolshevism and Death Worship.

Seems about right.

[Valore]

Gonna step in here and point out the US has been every bit as culpable for driving China towards the Russians.

The Chinese have been up to all kinds of twattery in the past decade+, but no one comes out clean when you look at the extent to which the US and other Western countries have leaned hard into the containment of China.

It's all and well to bully someone and turn the screws when you're dealing with a nation that doesn't have the wherewithal to stand up to you, but the US in it's arrogance keeps forgetting they don't have that kind of leverage over China, nor the willpower to use it even if they did. The fact relations continued to degrade, without any improvement for causes that Western nations attempted to champion, be they Xinjiang, North Korea, Hong Kong or Taiwan, speaks for itself.

Perhaps we should be asking the question: If you were China, do you think you could trust the US any more than the Russians?

The answer is obvious, as is the outcome.

[Sangria]

Gonna step in here and point out the US has been every bit as culpable for driving China towards the Russians.

The Chinese have been up to all kinds of twattery in the past decade+, but no one comes out clean when you look at the extent to which the US and other Western countries have leaned hard into the containment of China.

It's all and well to bully someone and turn the screws when you're dealing with a nation that doesn't have the wherewithal to stand up to you, but the US in it's arrogance keeps forgetting they don't have that kind of leverage over China, nor the willpower to use it even if they did. The fact relations continued to degrade, without any improvement for causes that Western nations attempted to champion, be they Xinjiang, North Korea, Hong Kong or Taiwan, speaks for itself.

Perhaps we should be asking the question: If you were China, do you think you could trust the US any more than the Russians?

The answer is obvious, as is the outcome.

Simply looking at the example of Hong Kong shows how trite the comparison is. Hong Kong is entirely under the power of China, and no one has been holding China hostage over what happens there. There is a guideline to what should happen, voluntarily entered into by China in partnership with Britain, written by the Hong Kongers themselves. Yet China has steadily and unilaterally eroded those guidelines. There was no trust with outside parties involved that caused this erosion. It's completely due to Chinese agency.

[Valore]

Simply looking at the example of Hong Kong shows how trite the comparison is. Hong Kong is entirely under the power of China, and no one has been holding China hostage over what happens there. There is a guideline to what should happen, voluntarily entered into by China in partnership with Britain, written by the Hong Kongers themselves. Yet China has steadily and unilaterally eroded those guidelines. There was no trust with outside parties involved that caused this erosion. It's completely due to Chinese agency.

With Hong Kong, should we be at all surprised that China, a nation which got completely shafted during the Opium Wars and was basically forced to give up Hong Kong, would feel little to no obligation to living up to a 'deal' that was agreed after the fact? Again, to be clear, no one is completely clean here.

Not only that, the situation in Hong Kong remains a nuanced one. We saw America's reaction to Cuba being communist right at their doorstep, yet we can't see why China might feel equally put off with the way things are going in Hong Kong and Taiwan?

There is a massive trust deficit on all sides, and honestly it's hard to argue in any shape or form that this is a result of one party's unilateral actions.

[west_london_red]

As soon as is possible we need to start just disengaging economically with these countries, there seems to be an acceptance that Europe is overly dependent on Russian gas and oil, but there also needs to be an acceptance we are overly reliant on China for our manufactured goods. Neither are our friends.

[Sangria]

With Hong Kong, should we be at all surprised that China, a nation which got completely shafted during the Opium Wars and was basically forced to give up Hong Kong, would feel little to no obligation to living up to a 'deal' that was agreed after the fact? Again, to be clear, no one is completely clean here.

Not only that, the situation in Hong Kong remains a nuanced one. We saw America's reaction to Cuba being communist right at their doorstep, yet we can't see why China might feel equally put off with the way things are going in Hong Kong and Taiwan?

There is a massive trust deficit on all sides, and honestly it's hard to argue in any shape or form that this is a result of one party's unilateral actions.

They're not betraying the west on Hong Kong. They're betraying the Hong Kongers on Hong Kong. The agreement that they entered into wasn't written by the west. It was written by Hong Kongers. What's the excuse for betraying an agreement between China and the people of Hong Kong?

[Sangria]

As soon as is possible we need to start just disengaging economically with these countries, there seems to be an acceptance that Europe is overly dependent on Russian gas and oil, but there also needs to be an acceptance we are overly reliant on China for our manufactured goods. Neither are our friends.

This should be within our power, and from now. AFAIK we're not dependent on raw resources from China, merely our economic system and practices.

[Valore]

They're not betraying the west on Hong Kong. They're betraying the Hong Kongers on Hong Kong. The agreement that they entered into wasn't written by the west. It was written by Hong Kongers. What's the excuse for betraying an agreement between China and the people of Hong Kong?

Simply put, even 'the people of Hong Kong' aren't a monolithic entity. The situation remains more nuanced than people often assume.

A recent example. There have been frustrations on the side of China that the Covid situation in Hong Kong is severely worsening and straining it's medical infrastructure.

The frustrations come from the fact that in China, if an official fucks up in terms of managing Covid, they are given the boot, censured, or worse. In Hong Kong, those in charge are seen to get off with a slap on the wrist or less for their mismanagement of the situation.

If China legitimately had as much control as people think, they would have gone in and tossed all those incompetents responsible and had them replaced for their failings. But for numerous reasons and considerations, they don't.

The Chinese believe Hong Kong is a domestic issue they will solve in their own time, using their own means. To the CCCP, democracy isn't the solution, so why would they honour it or any agreement like that mindlessly or based on some intangible obligation? After all if it was, we'd be living in a Utopia here in the West wouldn't we?

[Sangria]

Simply put, even 'the people of Hong Kong' aren't a monolithic entity. The situation remains more nuanced than people often assume.

A recent example. There have been frustrations on the side of China that the Covid situation in Hong Kong is severely worsening and straining it's medical infrastructure.

The frustrations come from the fact that in China, if an official fucks up in terms of managing Covid, they are given the boot, censured, or worse. In Hong Kong, those in charge are seen to get off with a slap on the wrist or less for their mismanagement of the situation.

If China legitimately had as much control as people think, they would have gone in and tossed all those incompetents responsible and had them replaced for their failings. But for numerous reasons and considerations, they don't.

The Chinese believe Hong Kong is a domestic issue they will solve in their own time, using their own means. To the CCCP, democracy isn't the solution, so why would they honour it or any agreement like that mindlessly or based on some intangible obligation? After all if it was, we'd be living in a Utopia here in the West wouldn't we?

Erosions of civil liberty in Hong Kong long pre-date covid. None of the issues involve the west or western interference in any way. Indeed, part of Hong Kongers' gripe with Britain is that Britain has not been guaranteeing this agreement as we'd promised to. This agreement that Hong Kongers wrote (and yes, as a body the committee that wrote this was intended to be representative of Hong Kong in all its facets), and that China and Britain signed off on.

The agreement has nothing to do with the west. It was entirely written by Hong Kongers. What's the excuse for China breaking it?

[Valore]

Erosions of civil liberty in Hong Kong long pre-date covid. None of the issues involve the west or western interference in any way. Indeed, part of Hong Kongers' gripe with Britain is that Britain has not been guaranteeing this agreement as we'd promised to. This agreement that Hong Kongers wrote (and yes, as a body the committee that wrote this was intended to be representative of Hong Kong in all its facets), and that China and Britain signed off on.

The agreement has nothing to do with the west. It was entirely written by Hong Kongers. What's the excuse for China breaking it?

Simply put, we don't believe in these crazed new fangled ideas you got while under the British, and since you're actually part of China, we're going to start chopping off the parts we don't agree with. That would be what my best guess at China's thoughts would be.

While a lot of Hong Kongers definitely are against what China has done, on paper what China is trying to do makes sense. Just as they're cracking down on things like big tech and property companies in China that they feel are getting out of control and affecting society adversely, the aim to do the same in Hong Kong. There remain plenty of issues which Hong Kong struggles with such as cost of living and property prices.

You have to remember in the long run, what China has done is lift a huge chunk of their population out of poverty. It's illogical to assume they want to do the reverse with Hong Kong and ruin the place for no good reason. But the means with which China does it, along with their Asian centric communal good mentality, means we'll inevitably see a philosophical clash with the West.

[AndyMuller]

Fuck China.

[Red-Soldier]

Simply put, we don't believe in these crazed new fangled ideas you got while under the British, and since you're actually part of China, we're going to start chopping off the parts we don't agree with. That would be what my best guess at China's thoughts would be.

While a lot of Hong Kongers definitely are against what China has done, on paper what China is trying to do makes sense. Just as they're cracking down on things like big tech and property companies in China that they feel are getting out of control and affecting society adversely, the aim to do the same in Hong Kong. There remain plenty of issues which Hong Kong struggles with such as cost of living and property prices.

You have to remember in the long run, what China has done is lift a huge chunk of their population out of poverty. It's illogical to assume they want to do the reverse with Hong Kong and ruin the place for no good reason. But the means with which China does it, along with their Asian centric communal good mentality, means we'll inevitably see a philosophical clash with the West.

Are you a comedian?

[Sangria]

Simply put, we don't believe in these crazed new fangled ideas you got while under the British, and since you're actually part of China, we're going to start chopping off the parts we don't agree with. That would be what my best guess at China's thoughts would be.

While a lot of Hong Kongers definitely are against what China has done, on paper what China is trying to do makes sense. Just as they're cracking down on things like big tech and property companies in China that they feel are getting out of control and affecting society adversely, the aim to do the same in Hong Kong. There remain plenty of issues which Hong Kong struggles with such as cost of living and property prices.

You have to remember in the long run, what China has done is lift a huge chunk of their population out of poverty. It's illogical to assume they want to do the reverse with Hong Kong and ruin the place for no good reason. But the means with which China does it, along with their Asian centric communal good mentality, means we'll inevitably see a philosophical clash with the West.

Once again, what they're doing has nothing to do with the west. The west has nothing to do with this. The agreement was written by Hong Kongers for Hong Kong, made with China. When China breaks each part of it, it has nothing to do with the west. In each instance, China is breaking an agreement they made with Hong Kong. It doesn't matter what their rationale is. They agreed to allow Hong Kong these rights, inviolable until 2047. It's nowhere near 2047, and those rights have been repeatedly encroached on.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Fuck China.

[Valore]

Once again, what they're doing has nothing to do with the west. The west has nothing to do with this. The agreement was written by Hong Kongers for Hong Kong, made with China. When China breaks each part of it, it has nothing to do with the west. In each instance, China is breaking an agreement they made with Hong Kong. It doesn't matter what their rationale is. They agreed to allow Hong Kong these rights, inviolable until 2047. It's nowhere near 2047, and those rights have been repeatedly encroached on.

And a large reason why that's happened is because China, rightly or wrongly, believes Hong Kong has continually been influenced by foreign powers towards secessionist directions. Again, I wonder where they might have gotten this impression from, not like the US has not had prior with regards to this eh.

[Sangria]

And a large reason why that's happened is because China, rightly or wrongly, believes Hong Kong has continually been influenced by foreign powers towards secessionist directions. Again, I wonder where they might have gotten this impression from, not like the US has not had prior with regards to this eh.

Why on earth are you bringing the US into this? Since when has the US had any influence in Hong Kong?

[Valore]

Why on earth are you bringing the US into this? Since when has the US had any influence in Hong Kong?

Because these things are all connected? China believes rightly or wrongly, the US and other Western states are trying to influence Hong Kong towards independence. Something which the US has previously shown in the past they're happy to do through regime change attempts all over the world in the past century, covert or overt.

Furthermore, high level US foreign policy experts constantly talk about weakening and containing China. This isn't a hidden secret, it's something openly espoused.

So the strength of China's response towards Hong Kong is doubtlessly at least in part caused by this.

[Sangria]

Because these things are all connected? China believes rightly or wrongly, the US and other Western states are trying to influence Hong Kong towards independence. Something which the US has previously shown in the past they're happy to do through regime change attempts all over the world in the past century, covert or overt.

Furthermore, high level US foreign policy experts constantly talk about weakening and containing China. This isn't a hidden secret, it's something openly espoused.

So the strength of China's response towards Hong Kong is doubtlessly at least in part caused by this.

How do you know that this is what China thinks? I'd say that, if you bring the US into a discussion of Hong Kong, you don't know anything about it. No matter what glib "it's all interconnected" you wave the point away with.

[Valore]

How do you know that this is what China thinks?

Not sure if you're being facetious or simply ill informed. Every other statement China makes whenever it decides to arrest or detain some of the Hong Kong activists implies either directly or indirectly that they believe that many of these activists are agents of or being influenced by Western foreign countries.

[Sangria]

Not sure if you're being facetious or simply ill informed. Every other statement China makes whenever it decides to arrest or detain some of the Hong Kong activists implies either directly or indirectly that they believe that many of these activists are agents of or being influenced by Western foreign countries.

How do you stop them from being influenced by western foreign countries? They're Hong Kongers, born in Hong Kong and living in Hong Kong. Hong Kong wasn't under Chinese rule when they were born. Are they guilty of being under western influence simply by reason of them existing?

One of the authors of the Hong Kong Basic Law is one of the keystones of Chinese identity. Xi Jinping loves referencing him as an exemplar of Chinese identity. He was an Anglophile, and being a journalist, was probably in the committee to ensure that free speech was represented in the Basic Law.

[mallin9]

Not sure if you're being facetious or simply ill informed. Every other statement China makes whenever it decides to arrest or detain some of the Hong Kong activists implies either directly or indirectly that they believe that many of these activists are agents of or being influenced by Western foreign countries.

And you think those statements are tied to the arrests in reality?  This is China you’re talking about; be an activist, and learn what it is like to disappear!  The statements are the equivalent of Frank Drebben standing outside a burning warehouse. “Nothing to see here. Please disperse!”

Oh, and fuck China

[Valore]

How do you stop them from being influenced by western foreign countries? They're Hong Kongers, born in Hong Kong and living in Hong Kong. Hong Kong wasn't under Chinese rule when they were born. Are they guilty of being under western influence simply by reason of them existing?

In China's case, you draw your red lines, which they've repeatedly stated is agitation for independence and civil disobedience. And then you arrest those who go against that.

If the West, mainly the US, had chosen to pursue less self-centered options with regards to trying to contain and kneecap China's rise, perhaps China may have been more amenable to concessions, or felt less need to crack down so harshly.

Which leads us back to my original point. China's current state is partially a problem of the West's (mainly US) making. The best statement summarising this comes from a former diplomat from Singapore, who basically said that China will take it's lead on how to behave as a superpower, or as world number 1, from how it sees the US behaving. And as we've seen in the past decade, the US hasn't exactly covered itself in glory in it's dealings with China. To try to somehow ignore this while saying this is all on China to paint them as some mindless evil democracy hating nation is way too simplistic.

[Yorkykopite]

China hates democracy. We know that much! Fears it too of course which is why they eliminate democrats and extinguish democratic movements. It's a fascist state.

[Valore]

And you think those statements are tied to the arrests in reality?  This is China you’re talking about; be an activist, and learn what it is like to disappear!  The statements are the equivalent of Frank Drebben standing outside a burning warehouse. “Nothing to see here. Please disperse!”

Oh, and fuck China

Whether or not they're tied to reality is an irrelevance.

The fact I'm pointing out is China rightfully feels threatened by what it sees as incredibly blatant US attempts to weaken it to stop it's rise, and it's treatment towards dissidents is inevitably tied to that.

[Sangria]

In China's case, you draw your red lines, which they've repeatedly stated is agitation for independence and civil disobedience. And then you arrest those who go against that.

If the West, mainly the US, had chosen to pursue less self-centered options with regards to trying to contain and kneecap China's rise, perhaps China may have been more amenable to concessions, or felt less need to crack down so harshly.

Which leads us back to my original point. China's current state is partially a problem of the West's (mainly US) making. The best statement summarising this comes from a former diplomat from Singapore, who basically said that China will take it's lead on how to behave as a superpower, or as world number 1, from how it sees the US behaving. And as we've seen in the past decade, the US hasn't exactly covered itself in glory in it's dealings with China. To try to somehow ignore this while saying this is all on China to paint them as some mindless evil democracy hating nation is way too simplistic.

And what the hell has all that to do with Hong Kong? Hong Kong has autonomy, of a kind written by Hong Kongers and signed up to by Beijing. It has nothing to do with foreigners, or what the US does, or what any superpower does, etc. It is purely to do with Hong Kong. Until China started breaking the agreement, that is. Hong Kong has not been agitating for any more independence than it wrote in 1997 that China had agreed to.

Your posts have been extremely sweeping in their scope, bringing in discussion of global geopolitics and so on. I am questioning your inclusion of Hong Kong in your original list, and surmising from what is clearly your lack of knowledge on that matter, your lack of knowledge on the rest of it either.

[Valore]

China hates democracy. We know that much! Fears it too of course which is why they eliminate democrats and extinguish democratic movements. It's a fascist state.

When you say 'China' who are you talking about? The millions of Chinese that have been lifted out of poverty by the policies of the Chinese Communist Party in the past decades? The Chinese who get to watch our Western leaders cover themselves in glory bickering, rabble rousing and pontificating while achieving nothing? The same leaders who have arguably mismanaged the entire Covid pandemic over and over?

Again, we do ourselves a disservice by trying to see China as one monolithic boogeyman. That's exactly how we ended up in this currently shit political climate in the first place.

[mallin9]

Whether or not they're tied to reality is an irrelevance.

The fact I'm pointing out is China rightfully feels threatened by what it sees as incredibly blatant US attempts to weaken it to stop it's rise, and it's treatment towards dissidents is inevitably tied to that.

OK so the statements which ties arrests to the West are the fault of the West, but they are also TOTALLY IRRELEVANT because China feels threatened by a yadda yadda…yadda yadda….

Ok, got it.  Fascist stooge, party of one, must be a good time

[Nobby Reserve]

When you say 'China' who are you talking about? The millions of Chinese that have been lifted out of poverty by the policies of the Chinese Communist Party in the past decades? The Chinese who get to watch our Western leaders cover themselves in glory bickering, rabble rousing and pontificating while achieving nothing? The same leaders who have arguably mismanaged the entire Covid pandemic over and over?

Again, we do ourselves a disservice by trying to see China as one monolithic boogeyman. That's exactly how we ended up in this currently shit political climate in the first place.

Ah, I'm seeing some 'true colours' emerge here.


On the one hand you're railing against viewing China as a 'monolithic bogeyman', yet in other posts you're doing exactly that in portraying 'China' as a unified bloc. When you say that "China rightfully feels threatened" a more accurate assessment would be "the CCP rightfully feels threatened by attempts to democratise China and allow personal freedoms and human rights because they would lose their iron grip on power and control"

[zadoktBeast]

Simply put, even 'the people of Hong Kong' aren't a monolithic entity. The situation remains more nuanced than people often assume.

A recent example. There have been frustrations on the side of China that the Covid situation in Hong Kong is severely worsening and straining it's medical infrastructure.

The frustrations come from the fact that in China, if an official fucks up in terms of managing Covid, they are given the boot, censured, or worse. In Hong Kong, those in charge are seen to get off with a slap on the wrist or less for their mismanagement of the situation.

If China legitimately had as much control as people think, they would have gone in and tossed all those incompetents responsible and had them replaced for their failings. But for numerous reasons and considerations, they don't.

The Chinese believe Hong Kong is a domestic issue they will solve in their own time, using their own means. To the CCCP, democracy isn't the solution, so why would they honour it or any agreement like that mindlessly or based on some intangible obligation? After all if it was, we'd be living in a Utopia here in the West wouldn't we?

This leads to a very serious problem in tyrannical regimes: information flow about bad news doesn't flow upwards. Fearing disappearance/arrest/death, the middle-managers have a rational human motivation to hide the truth from the top brass as long as possible.

That's how a disease outbreak, which could have been contained, reaches worldwide pandemic proportions (same as Chernobyl). It's why nations that believe in transparency can never trust nations that don't, and ideally should have nothing at all to do with them

[west_london_red]

This should be within our power, and from now. AFAIK we're not dependent on raw resources from China, merely our economic system and practices.

No raw materials, but an awful lot of our manufactured good, electronics, toys and all kinds of random shit are made there and would years to buy from elsewhere if they are still even made outside of China.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

It's why nations that believe in transparency can never trust nations that don't, and ideally should have nothing at all to do with them

Am interested in these nations that believe in transparency.

Got any examples?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

No raw materials, but an awful lot of our manufactured good, electronics, toys and all kinds of random shit are made there and would years to buy from elsewhere if they are still even made outside of China.

Most of which are completely unnecessary shite. Would help with our environmental and climate change problems if they weren't manufactured. 

[zadoktBeast]

Am interested in these nations that believe in transparency.

Got any examples?

Ha ha good point, the trend is unfortunately going the wrong way here, but I like to think we still have lots of influential folks here who believe in transparency and aspire to it. As worrying as it is to see our institutions increasingly go into 'cover your arse' mode, places like the CCP (especially) and Russia are living in the dark ages in this regard.

For instance, we still have things like Private Eye and investigative journalism. Can you imagine what would happen to any domestic Chinese journalist (and all their relatives) if they tried to investigate the truth about Peng Shuai, for instance?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Most of which are completely unnecessary shite. Would help with our environmental and climate change problems if they weren't manufactured.

There things are, surely, relative. And relatively speaking, China is not only in a different league to Western Europe, it is playing a completely a different game.

[Sangria]

Am interested in these nations that believe in transparency.

Got any examples?

In comparison with China, western countries. That's why wealthy Chinese prefer to buy from western countries that have high standards and transparent courts. You're not likely to be poisoned or otherwise harmed by whatever you're buying.

[zadoktBeast]

You have to remember in the long run, what China has done is lift a huge chunk of their population out of poverty.

When you say 'China' who are you talking about? The millions of Chinese that have been lifted out of poverty by the policies of the Chinese Communist Party in the past decades?

And wasn't that chap Hitler tremendously efficient in the 30's, eh? Autobahn, new currency and economy, restored German confidence to take on the world, all achieved in record time! You have to sit back and admire the speed and scale of what he did, don't you?

It's a great example of just what you can get done under dictators (no time wasted squobbling and pontificating).
Just, you know, pay no mind to all the concentration camps, and millions crushed under the wheels of the new machine. History really likes repeating itself doesn't it