Topic: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich

[Bob Sacamano]

I think Pep's Bayern was arguably better than Hencykes Bayern, and certainly not considerably worse. The CL results were ultimately disappointing, but they've had key injuries at the wrong time, and I've never been fond of judging managers based on knock-out results. Went to 3 straight semi-finals and lost to Madrid, Barca, and Madrid.

Based on Wiki, he's made it to the CL semis every single year he's been manager and won the league 6/7 times. That's incredible consistency, regardless of the resources at his disposal. You literally cannot ask for more from a manager given how much randomness can occur over a 2-leg tie.

[FlashGordon]

about right. He did what was expected but didn't get the trophy that he needed to be seen as a success. He's also not the most popular with the fans compared to others that have managed them.

He probably tried to change too much too quickly. I'm a very big fan of how he plays football but it must have been quite a shock going from seeing Heynckes' side to Pep' version week in week out.

[Samie]

Pep's Bayern team was boring to watch compared to the last Heynckes Bayern team.  That team could out play you in different ways. Pep's team doesn't know what to do if you neutralise "Plan A".

[Gerry Attrick]

I think Pep's Bayern was arguably better than Hencykes Bayern, and certainly not considerably worse. The CL results were ultimately disappointing, but they've had key injuries at the wrong time, and I've never been fond of judging managers based on knock-out results. Went to 3 straight semi-finals and lost to Madrid, Barca, and Madrid.

Based on Wiki, he's made it to the CL semis every single year he's been manager and won the league 6/7 times. That's incredible consistency, regardless of the resources at his disposal. You literally cannot ask for more from a manager given how much randomness can occur over a 2-leg tie.

Hard to argue his team are better when they were treble winners before he arrived and haven't come close to scaling those heights under him. Your points after are valid but I'd find it extremely tough to argue his Bayern are/were better than Heynckes'.

[b_joseph]

Pep's Bayern team was boring to watch compared to the last Heynckes Bayern team.  That team could out play you in different ways. Pep's team doesn't know what to do if you neutralise "Plan A".

What would you call his plan A though. Because compared to the Barca years, they are much more direct than that and score a number of their goals from conventional wide man play.

The last 4 teams to win the CL treble, havent come close the following season. All of them with the same coach...it's unrealistic to do it all over again. So it's natural that there would be changes.

[tubby]

Pep's Barca team had one clear game plan and it worked perfectly because if the endless passing didn't eventually break the opposition down, then (arguably) the greatest player in the history of the sport would produce a moment of magic and make that decisive breakthrough.  With Bayern, he doesn't have a Messi-level player and in the end they instead resorted to long balls and crosses, which is clearly not how he wants to play the game.

No Messi, no party.

[FlashGordon]

No Messi, no party.

 

[Xxavi]

Pep got lots of criticism from German media and fans for not starting Muller (and for playing Xabi Alonso). This time, he started Muller and he was a massive pile of shit. I am OK with efficient players, and Muller usually is, but you'd think Pep left a hybrid of Messi and Ronaldo on the bench last game. I thought Alonso was their penalty taker, but no, Muller had to take it, and make even a worse impression of his overall shit game. Alonso at least did some good things to prove Pep right.

Also, a side note on Costa. From one of the best players in Europe in September, to a one trick pony by April/May now. Same with Coman. A bit unlucky for Pep that Robben is out injured again. Even half fit Robben causes more problems than Costa and Coman did over 2 legs. Whatever happened to Costa, he seems extremely limited now.

[Redman0151]

Apparently he's earned €50m over the 3 seasons at Bayern. Crazy

[Libertine]

Bet he'll be supporting Madrid tonight for once - last thing he wants is to join another club that has just won the CL and then struggle to match it again.

[Vinay]

Terrible results in the CL semis, three years in a row.... That is six games, folks, and against opposition Pep knows very well.

[Adam_LFC]

Terrible results in the CL semis, three years in a row.... That is six games, folks, and against opposition Pep knows very well.

He's consistently getting there though. The Champions League isn't easy.

[child-in-time]

He's consistently getting there though. The Champions League isn't easy.

So is Mourinho though.

[lionel_messias]

Tiki-taka does tend to require a genius on the end of it.

Is now the time of the brawler, underdog in football again? A Simeone or (dare I say it) Klopp machine working in concert could be more efficient than a genius dependent possession house?

Personally don't think Man City will be any great shakes next season.

[Yiannis]

Not winning the CL with them is a failure for the incredible lofty standards of him and the ones of the super rich/top clubs. His whole time there is not though. I think he got it more wrong in the first 2 semis(vs Real especially when they were incredibly vulnerable on the counter attack) in the previous two years than the last couple of weeks. You can see how much he worked with most of his players and he leaves them as better ones I believe. Yet you will hear incredibly stupid shouts of him being a fraud or not a top coach which are laughable really.


He learned his lesson this year (a lot of closing inside by the Bayern players to avoid getting counter attacked through the middle of the pitch) and basically the only time Atletico managed to get a counter attack, they scored. Simeone's comments about Bayern were very telling after the game.

[MOZ]

Tiki-taka does tend to require a genius on the end of it.

Is now the time of the brawler, underdog in football again? A Simeone or (dare I say it) Klopp machine working in concert could be more efficient than a genius dependent possession house?

Personally don't think Man City will be any great shakes next season.

All styles of football are valid and all can exist side-by-side. But of course, they all require a high level of effiency and productivity to succeed.

Tiki-taka should not be written off simply because a team that uses it loses a big game. We do not apply that rule to other styles, so why should we in this case?

These battles between different styles are what have always made the game so fascinating.

[Mr Dilkington]

Bayern haven't been playing tiki taka.

It's lazy criticism. Bayern were exceptional last night.

[MOZ]

Bayern haven't been playing tiki taka.

It's lazy criticism. Bayern were exceptional last night.

True, the style they have been playing is far removed from the Barca/Spain style but people still associate Pep with just one way of playing: Tiki-taka, no Plan B etc. Last night's game was just a brilliant football match that could have easily gone either way. Anyone suggesting that that result represents a failure or marks the finish of the possession-based game needs their head testing.

 

[achavan]

Pep's Bayern team was boring to watch compared to the last Heynckes Bayern team.  That team could out play you in different ways. Pep's team doesn't know what to do if you neutralise "Plan A".

I am sure you haven't watched much of Bayern for the last 3 years.
Your statement implies Pep = Wenger which is absolute bollocks to be honest.
I haven't seen a manager Tactically as flexible as Pep.
The Plan A comment could be made for Pep's Barcelona but not Bayern.

[Gnurglan]

Pep's Bayern team was boring to watch compared to the last Heynckes Bayern team.  That team could out play you in different ways. Pep's team doesn't know what to do if you neutralise "Plan A".

Agree. Prefer Heynckes team. So far Pep has had very, very good players at his disposal. He's made the team play possession-based football. Credit to him for that, but it's somehing you have to expect with such good players. Would be very interesting to see what he could do with a worse team. I think he'd have to adapt. So far he could have had the team play any type of game, but I think he's made them limited in style.
Also, it's interesting to see Barca after Pep has left. I think they are a better team now.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

I think he played with his plan B last night and it was effective to a degree, he learnt a lot from the previous two semis and the Juve game at Munich a couple of months ago. What killed him in the tie wasn't last night's game but being extremely conservative in Madrid and not getting the away goal there.

[JJ Red]

I wonder if it his destiny to replace another popular outgoing manager who has just won the european cup 

[Weytske]

Pep's Bayern team was boring to watch compared to the last Heynckes Bayern team.  That team could out play you in different ways. Pep's team doesn't know what to do if you neutralise "Plan A".

What is his plan A then really? In the return tie against Juve, Bayern scored twice from a cross, a combination through the middle and a counter attack. That seems pretty versatile to me... Problem is since his period at Barcelona almost every team Guardiola plays against puts 11 players in their own goal what makes fast, transitional football rather impossible. Mourinho once tried to play football against him when he was at Real and Pep's Barca murdered them 5-0.

[The North Bank]

I think its fair to say that there's a few Bayern fans who would be willing to drive young pep to the airport.

[lionel_messias]

I think its fair to say that there's a few Bayern fans who would be willing to drive young pep to the airport.

It's pretty harsh, as any great manager can lose a European semi-final against very good opposition, and also win their domestic league by miles.

Seems they need an underdog manager like a Simeone, or Klopp (not happening) yet they are almost the ultimate OVER-dogs in their domestic league.

[Gerry Attrick]

I think its fair to say that there's a few Bayern fans who would be willing to drive young pep to the airport.

Don't think they've ever really taken to him to be honest. He's won a few Bundesligas but I'm not sure many will be distraught when he leaves.

[Ray K]

I think its fair to say that there's a few Bayern fans who would be willing to drive young pep to the airport.

I understand that. Pep does strike me as someone who'd tip generously.

[Xxavi]

As far as judging Pep goes, he is the managerial equivalent of Messi and Ronaldo these days. That is, scoring "only" 20-30 goals is considered a failure, or a disappointment. Remember 1-2 years ago people were blaming UEFA and calling it shameful that Messi was even in top 3 for Ballon D'Or? We had some of those clowns on here, too. All sorts of justifications were thrown in. What would be called a brilliant season for any player (see Griezmann this season) is a failure for Ronaldo and Messi. So Pep is there, among managers.

He is harshly judged. Extremely harshly. It turns out, everywhere he goes, things are perfectly ready for winning trebles year after year. And if he doesn't do that, it is a failure. Forgetting the fact that he is probably the youngest 2 time CL winner in the history, and had he won another, would equal the record too, again, at the youngest age.

I am almost certain that if he goes to ManCity and wins Premiership year after year, people will be saying "yeah, but ManCity had the best squad in the league anyways, and they had funds to bankroll Guardiola's purchases". This is obviously not considering the fact that ManCity had the same situation for the past 3-4 years, and have been terribly inconsistent. But it won't be considered an achievement for some. The same is true for Bayern and Ancelotti. Pep's Bundesliga wins and CL semis exits are said to be a failure by some, but even if Ancelotti fails to achieve that, there will be excuses. Ancelotti fecking lost the league title to Montpellier as a PSG manager, lost a huge lead in Spanish league to Atletico and Barca, got knocked out of CL many times. But he is immune from the same criticism, because apparently Real Madrid and PSG are underdogs.

Anyway, people who criticize him are too harsh, and they won't bother applying the same standards to any other manager in the world. Because if they do, just about everybody is coming out worse than Pep. Take Simeone, he deserves the best manager title right now. But it is one thing to be an underdog and play as an underdog, and a completely different thing to be a favorite and play as a favorite. Not many managers can make the transition. Mourinho couldn't at Real Madrid. Him trying to push the idea that Madrid are poor little shitty club didn't find support at Madrid in the end. In football, the results are the king, but a bit of perspective is necessary when judging. Simeone doesn't have the best squad in his hand, but give him (or Mourinho) the best squad, be it Madrid, Barca or Bayern, and he won't produce a good footballing side. It will still be negative underdog stuff.

[tubby]

Can't win a Champs League without the best player of all time, though, can he.

[The North Bank]

When pep invented football, did he stop at the semi final stage?

[Chakan]

When pep invented football, did he stop at the semi final stage?

No Mourinho did that first. Pep's just copying him.

Wenger invented/perfected the not getting there at all.

[Samie]

When pep invented football, did he stop at the semi final stage?

So he couldn't get past a semi?

[b_joseph]

http://www.espnfc.com/club/bayern-munich/132/blog/post/2864695/bayern-will-benefit-from-guardiolas-triumphs-and-faillures-for-years-to-come

[Vinay]

When pep invented football, did he stop at the semi final stage?

No, he invented the treble, and winning it twice before the age of 45.

When Wenger invented football, he calibrated his model according to the season ending in February/March.

[The North Bank]

No, he invented the treble, and winning it twice before the age of 45.

When Wenger invented football, he calibrated his model according to the season ending in February/March.

Since we are inventing things, did you just invent another treble? I like it. But he only won it once, even that one, Messi won it for him. Fact that Messi won it for Luis Enrique too shows that no messi no party. Unless you think Luis Enrique invented football too.

[slamjam]

 Pep has just set high standards for himself to be judged on no cl trophy equals failure.

[God's Left Peg]

Since we are inventing things, did you just invent another treble? I like it. But he only won it once, even that one, Messi won it for him. Fact that Messi won it for Luis Enrique too shows that no messi no party. Unless you think Luis Enrique invented football too.

Errmmm... perhaps Pep invented Messi? Y'know, in a lab or something.

[b_joseph]

Since we are inventing things, did you just invent another treble? I like it. But he only won it once, even that one, Messi won it for him. Fact that Messi won it for Luis Enrique too shows that no messi no party. Unless you think Luis Enrique invented football too.

No single player wins it for anyone...thats Fat Sam type logic.

[Gnurglan]

As far as judging Pep goes, he is the managerial equivalent of Messi and Ronaldo these days. That is, scoring "only" 20-30 goals is considered a failure, or a disappointment. Remember 1-2 years ago people were blaming UEFA and calling it shameful that Messi was even in top 3 for Ballon D'Or? We had some of those clowns on here, too. All sorts of justifications were thrown in. What would be called a brilliant season for any player (see Griezmann this season) is a failure for Ronaldo and Messi. So Pep is there, among managers.

He is harshly judged. Extremely harshly. It turns out, everywhere he goes, things are perfectly ready for winning trebles year after year. And if he doesn't do that, it is a failure. Forgetting the fact that he is probably the youngest 2 time CL winner in the history, and had he won another, would equal the record too, again, at the youngest age.

I am almost certain that if he goes to ManCity and wins Premiership year after year, people will be saying "yeah, but ManCity had the best squad in the league anyways, and they had funds to bankroll Guardiola's purchases". This is obviously not considering the fact that ManCity had the same situation for the past 3-4 years, and have been terribly inconsistent. But it won't be considered an achievement for some. The same is true for Bayern and Ancelotti. Pep's Bundesliga wins and CL semis exits are said to be a failure by some, but even if Ancelotti fails to achieve that, there will be excuses. Ancelotti fecking lost the league title to Montpellier as a PSG manager, lost a huge lead in Spanish league to Atletico and Barca, got knocked out of CL many times. But he is immune from the same criticism, because apparently Real Madrid and PSG are underdogs.

Anyway, people who criticize him are too harsh, and they won't bother applying the same standards to any other manager in the world. Because if they do, just about everybody is coming out worse than Pep. Take Simeone, he deserves the best manager title right now. But it is one thing to be an underdog and play as an underdog, and a completely different thing to be a favorite and play as a favorite. Not many managers can make the transition. Mourinho couldn't at Real Madrid. Him trying to push the idea that Madrid are poor little shitty club didn't find support at Madrid in the end. In football, the results are the king, but a bit of perspective is necessary when judging. Simeone doesn't have the best squad in his hand, but give him (or Mourinho) the best squad, be it Madrid, Barca or Bayern, and he won't produce a good footballing side. It will still be negative underdog stuff.

Understand this point of view. In particular the final sentences. Pep has his sides play the kind of football you'd expect from those who have massive resources. This is why I'd like to see what Peo would be like with an underdog side. Is he able to adapt, or does his quality as manager depend on having top class players? I'm beginning to think that it's the latter.

[Welshred]

No, he invented the treble, and winning it twice before the age of 45.

When Wenger invented football, he calibrated his model according to the season ending in February/March.

Pep invented the treble? Joe Fagan says hi