Author Topic: Systems - Tactical Flexibility  (Read 11742 times)

Online Guz-kop

  • Baz cop
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,493
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2013, 03:17:52 pm »
Quote
There is not only a formation but a template for the players that play in it. It means mercurial talents like Hoddle and Le Tissier even where their talent transcends the barriers are left unappreciated, unloved and sidelined for the most part because our tactical knowse just can’t accommodate them.

Maybe you can take the view that so what, the cream will always rise to the top but would the likes of Xavi, Pirlo and Del Piero have survived and made it to the professional game in the UK? Do we have any real evidence to suggest we even breed them like that here?

I think this is a little unfair as both Le Tissier and Hoddle made over 400 appearances each in the top divisions in this country. Hoddle also played over 50 times for England.

If the likes of Xavi, Pirlo and Del Piero may not have been nurtured here, can I turn it around and ask if the likes of Gerrard or Rooney would be the players they are today if they were abroad? I know people bang on about Steven's "tactical discipline" but for the player he's turned out to be, for the performances he's put in, for the way he has influenced games in the past I would not swapped him for anyone in the world nor change anything about the way his career had developed (apart from an extra trophy or two...). Would Ryan Giggs have had the career he'd have had if he was Italian (as an example)? He was one of the best wide players in Europe at his peak and he didn't just get a chance because he was quick. If the answer to the question is yes then what's the evidence for it?

Every football nation has its own identity. We sterotype the British one into two banks of four with hardmen centre backs and a big lad up front but the most successful teams from these shores haven't followed that pattern and nor have the best players. Even when some of those players maybe fit part of that sterotype (Gerrard, dynamic physical midfielder) it's not necessarily a bad thing. The top (and if we're using examples like Xavi or Pirlo then we must compare like for like) British sides and players over the last 30-40 years show the stereotype isn't always valid.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 03:22:06 pm by Guz-kop »
It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline GrkStav

  • Has a statuette of Lucas on the bonnet of his car which he polishes lovingly with Lucas Brasso. Glen Johnson's biggest fan. Doesn't have a "fucken clue" where L4 is
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,981
  • Not very good at 'banter'.
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2013, 03:19:37 pm »
Who does? Our most successful sides played 4411 (though often referred to as 442) for more than a decade, but we didn't attack with two banks of four. That would be silly (and ineffective). Fullbacks overlap, midfielders sit or support, wide players push on or cut inside, forwards move constantly (or should). Formation notation (if a single, simple reference is retained) is only really meaningful as a base defensive shape. The modern use of '4231' attempts to blend defensive and offensive shape into a single notation, but would you argue that it rigidly suggests we attack with a flat back four at all times? Of course not. It's shorthand.

We are actually in agreement, despite appearing to disagree. I think the "because it sounds nicer" or words to that effect kinda rubbed me the wrong way so I took off on a wild goose chase.

Cheers.
Ludi Circenses!

Offline sempi

  • Sees Harry Styles Everywhere
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 912
  • Gary, Gary Mac, he's got no hair but we don't care
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 03:53:38 pm »
I think this is a little unfair as both Le Tissier and Hoddle made over 400 appearances each in the top divisions in this country. Hoddle also played over 50 times for England.

If the likes of Xavi, Pirlo and Del Piero may not have been nurtured here, can I turn it around and ask if the likes of Gerrard or Rooney would be the players they are today if they were abroad? I know people bang on about Steven's "tactical discipline" but for the player he's turned out to be, for the performances he's put in, for the way he has influenced games in the past I would not swapped him for anyone in the world nor change anything about the way his career had developed (apart from an extra trophy or two...). Would Ryan Giggs have had the career he'd have had if he was Italian (as an example)? He was one of the best wide players in Europe at his peak and he didn't just get a chance because he was quick. If the answer to the question is yes then what's the evidence for it?

Every football nation has its own identity. We sterotype the British one into two banks of four with hardmen centre backs and a big lad up front but the most successful teams from these shores haven't followed that pattern and nor have the best players. Even when some of those players maybe fit part of that sterotype (Gerrard, dynamic physical midfielder) it's not necessarily a bad thing. The top (and if we're using examples like Xavi or Pirlo then we must compare like for like) British sides and players over the last 30-40 years show the stereotype isn't always valid.
Currently, forwards only:
Man City: Dzecko
West Ham: Carlton Cole/ Andy Carroll
Aston Villa: Benteke
Spurs: Adebayor
Swansea: Michu
Chelsea: was Drogba now Ba
Stoke: Anyone of four
Norwich: Grant
Arsenal : Girodin

And so on, I accept that some there aren't just big lumbering  number 9s, apart from BR the british managers like a big strong target man  whose main attribute is to hold the ball up so the midfield pushes on or gains a free kick.  Arsenal didn't have a player of that type  but now they do. 


Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2013, 03:56:38 pm »
Currently, forwards only:
Man City: Dzecko
West Ham: Carlton Cole/ Andy Carroll
Aston Villa: Benteke
Spurs: Adebayor
Swansea: Michu
Chelsea: was Drogba now Ba
Stoke: Anyone of four
Norwich: Grant
Arsenal : Girodin

And so on, I accept that some there aren't just big lumbering  number 9s, apart from BR the british managers like a big strong target man  whose main attribute is to hold the ball up so the midfield pushes on or gains a free kick.  Arsenal didn't have a player of that type  but now they do.

Except -

Man City: Italian manager
West Ham: English manager
Aston Villa: Scottish manager but educated in Germany
Spurs: Portuguese manager
Swansea: Danish Manager
Chelsea: Spanish manager, English Manager before that, Portuguese manager before that, etc.
Stoke: English manager
Norwich: Irish manager, educated in England
Arsenal : French manager

So it's mostly foreign manager picking the big lads. That is what they call "irony" :D
Better looking than Samie.

Offline sempi

  • Sees Harry Styles Everywhere
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 912
  • Gary, Gary Mac, he's got no hair but we don't care
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2013, 04:20:30 pm »
Except -

Man City: Italian manager
West Ham: English manager
Aston Villa: Scottish manager but educated in Germany
Spurs: Portuguese manager
Swansea: Danish Manager
Chelsea: Spanish manager, English Manager before that, Portuguese manager before that, etc.
Stoke: English manager
Norwich: Irish manager, educated in England
Arsenal : French manager

So it's mostly foreign manager picking the big lads. That is what they call "irony" :D

The irony is that the foreign managers are adapting to the British system rather  than the other way around.
Thanks for the smiley!

Offline sattapaartridge

  • The new 'pete price' of RAWK.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,535
  • @sattapaal
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2013, 04:37:29 pm »
Whats interesting is; Man Utd's more predominant success came with players without presence.

From memory;

Hughes
McClair
Cantona
Dion Dublin*
Andy Cole
Dwight Yorke
Sheringham*
Ole Gunnar Babyface
Ruud Van Nistlerooy
Rooney
Christiano Ronaldo
Hernandez
Welbeck
Van Persie

In the last 20 odd years, they only ever had 2-3 target men, and they didnt even play much.
did you know that 10 x 2 and 11 x 2 have the same answer?

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2013, 04:44:25 pm »
I think this is a little unfair as both Le Tissier and Hoddle made over 400 appearances each in the top divisions in this country. Hoddle also played over 50 times for England.


Hoddle may have received 53 caps but by '88 when he should have been at is peak the likes of Neil Webb kept him out the side so we could play a conventional 442 - whilst Le Tissier barely got a cap - the primary reasoning being that they didn't fit in a 442 formation, they were seen as lightweight, unable to defend - abroad Hoddle was used as a playmaker and was voted the best foriegn player in France. That was the point I was trying to make. Rather than maximising their obvious talent it was constrained to fit in with conventional systems.

Would Giggs, Gerrard and Rooney have made it abroad. Yes. Again thats the whole point because abroad they have diverse systems, because they are flexible, they can find talent and use it. They can use Pirlo, De Rossi, and Gattuso. Giggs, Gerrard and Rooney would have come through because similar style players come through all the time. Can you unequivically say the same about Zola, or Del Piero or Messi or Iniesta or Pirlo or would they have been crushed or overlooked by the time they were 16.
Now if you'd have made a case for Carlton Palmer or Geoff Thomas not making it to the ranks of the continental elite........


Having british characteristics , strong quick, determined, does not exclude you abroad they are all good qualities, that is not the issue. The issue is does not having them exclude you here. If you dont have those abilities if you are an intelligent, flair player will you get the same chances? The answer for along time has been no. The hope is that this is changing not least because the game is chnaging and those players wont be eaten alive by playing the likes of Stoke every week.
 




The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline alvaro

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,182
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2013, 04:56:16 pm »
A couple of points, just for informational purposes that may be relevant.  Soccernomics is a book about broad trends in football (things like football starting in working class, industrial cities but probably the powerhouses moving to capital cities because on average they have more money).  Right in the title they examine why England lose.  They examine wealth, population size, number of people playing in the country, and length of tradition.  Their conclusion was that England are remarkably consistent in winning right around where you would expect them to from those factors.

Man Utd. also have a system throughout the club (which apparently involves 10,000 wingers and strikers on the squad).

Brendan Rodgers talks about how the system (formation) doesn't matter much, you adjust it to the players but the style matters to him.  Quick, passing, possession etc.. So we have seen a bunch of different formations in half a year, but only a couple of style changes (packing the box and counter-attacking versus Everton and Chelsea).


That means that England tactical system is average then.

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2013, 05:20:00 pm »
As for tactical stability, we threw away what we had there too when we went for a new style of play. Fortunately, it seems the Academy was untouched. And now it appears we have a manager whose thoughts are similar to those taught at the Academy. So finally we're back on our track. I think this shows the importance of making the right decisions at the top. One mistake can be crucial and it can cost years (let alone tens of millions).
One thing which currently excites me is that we have had a plan in place for some time at youth level.  Rafa put together a management team along with a blueprint.  We are around 3-4 years into that.  It's up to Rodgers to leverage that now because if it is managed properly it will be a competitive advantage.  You don't need millions to compete.  But you need good management.

Offline Not A Scouser

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 498
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2013, 05:34:20 pm »
That means that England tactical system is average then.

Or at least it has been.  It's funny that everyone knows where England will finish in a tournament, knocked out on penalties in the quarter-finals.  This is considered a failure when it's the best eight in the world.

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,554
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2013, 08:40:50 pm »
One thing which currently excites me is that we have had a plan in place for some time at youth level.  Rafa put together a management team along with a blueprint.  We are around 3-4 years into that.  It's up to Rodgers to leverage that now because if it is managed properly it will be a competitive advantage.  You don't need millions to compete.  But you need good management.

Agree. Fortunately, during the mess, we've at least not ripped things apart at the Academy. And we've been wise or lucky enough that Rodgers shares the views held there. Looks like Wisdom, Sterling, Suso etc can save us millions. Millions that we can spend on top class players.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2013, 08:57:00 am »
Agree. Fortunately, during the mess, we've at least not ripped things apart at the Academy. And we've been wise or lucky enough that Rodgers shares the views held there. Looks like Wisdom, Sterling, Suso etc can save us millions. Millions that we can spend on top class players.
Having money can be an issue as well.  We are a great example of how having a big budget is not a good thing when you don't have a plan.  We didn't buy bad players in Carroll, Downing and Henderson but we had no plan or at least we didn't have one which matched the assets we purchased.  It's like we were in the fine fabrics business but decided on buying a big expensive paper making machine, one which would eventually be difficult to shift because only other paper manufacturers want it.  But the mistake was made in the purchase when we had no use for it.  It was a case of look at this machine, look how great it is, it's so efficient, it shoots out x amount of paper per minute etc.  In other words we fell in love with the idea of Carroll rather than his practical use.

My one major concern with Rodgers, and this would apply to any manager we hire to be honest, is how long he is around for.  This will depend on us as much as it will depend on him.  In his case, I don't want him to be here for just 3 years.  I don't want him to be showcasing his talent.  I want him to stick around for 5+ years because this job is a lot of work.  A LOT of work.  That's why I loved Benitez.  He was here for tomorrow and fought for it.  That's why I love Dalglish because you know he will do everything he can to ensure that we have a good future.  Mistakes will be made but he is internally driven.  It's just Liverpool with him.

I have no evidence to suggest Rodgers is showcasing.  But I have no evidence to suggest otherwise.  It's classic information asymmetry.   I believe Rodgers has an opportunity with the academy and the current position of the club.  I want him to shape that.


Offline lamonti

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,447
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2013, 10:17:54 am »
I think generally formations and their importance is over-blown. I feel in the 442 description above, what has been described has been really a Hodgson style 442 where the tactic is to sit back, soak pressure, full backs play narrow forcing teams to cross where 2 tall centre-backs head away and a counter attack is launched to 2 front men. The irony on the whole 442 debate is that the most successful club in the last 20 years has primarily used a 442 formation - Man U. Sure, you can say that certain players (Rooney) play in between the lines, but fundamentally Fergie has always played a 442 outside of the Tevez years where he went small ball - but even then he typically had Tevez (or Berbatov) and Rooney up front with Ronaldo and Giggs wide.

Is Fergie's 442 the same as a Hodgson 442? Of course not...but it is still fundamentally based on 2 forwards (with positions less fixed then in a Hodgson style), 2 wingers and 2 central midfield players. Similarly, Fergie's teams haven't had just one-footed full backs - Dennis Irwin played left back but was right footed, Rio Ferdinand certainly can pass the ball etc etc.

So for me - formation isn't that important but tactical flexibility and the ability for players to play multiple positions is more important. A 442 with such players works equally as well as a 4231, 433 or whatever else - I just think we all get so caught up with formations. Was Benitez' LFC team really a 4231 or was it a 442? Gerrard hardly did any defensive work so you could easily view it as a 442/4411 especially as our wingers were not so advanced - but we all (including myself) called it a 4231 cos it sounded cooler.

For me the best formation is one which you can't actually pin down as it then becomes harder to defend. The Benitez years, even Kenny's first 6 months in his return...we at times would play a 442 type system but with guys like Meireles and Maxi playing wide who were equally as comfortable playing centrally - it was great, so much movement, the opposition didn't know who to mark when.

One of the reasons I think "442" is the formation generally taught in the UK is that I believe its the easiest to implement. As a school kid playing 11 a side, it was easy for us to understand 442, what our roles were etc. It was funny though - I remember when I was 18 playing against a team playing a proper 433 and the reality was we had no clue how to defend it and were being dragged all over the place...illustrating that though I don't think formations are that important - clearly being tactically flexible and knowing how to play against different formations is important.

I agree with a lot of this. The formations are definitely not the be all and end all, though they do give some indication of how you are supposed to beorganised. I think at the highest level, individual details and personnel must come into it a huge amount.

I especially liked what you said about our 4-2-3-1 sounding sexier than a 4-4-1-1 - I'm completely guilty of that same fallacy!

The way I see it, for starters, it's crazy that there hasn't been a default tactic in our academy until Segura/Borrell/Rafa got involved. That's just plain mad. Your point about United's "4-4-2" is well made. It's not so much the tactical arrangement but the spirit in which United play the game, the "DNA of the club" as Gary Neville would say. Two goal-scoring forwards (whether one drops off or both do, its kind of irrelevant), two attacking wingers who use width (whether they're inverted or not again irrelevant) two midfielders supporting the attacking, the back four having to do a lot of one-on-one defending. That and you're expected to win because you are Man Utd. It's more a general spirit than a specific tactical detail that has served them so well, even in terms of producing players to sell on. Success begets success as it were.

There's an inherent tension between developing players within a default tactical framework for the club and trying to make them tactically versatile. Like, should the U21s be versed in three at the back. Should the full backs (or more pertinently, the wingers) be prepared to play wingback in that formation. Should the midfielders be versed in playing as a diamond with two up front and less width?* Or should we be trying to mould them to the default club standard (which, lets say is 4-3-3 for now.)

I think often overlooked is the importance of attacking patterns. So much of the time what we are doing seems completely improvised (it did especially under Kenny). Now I know football is a superfast game, but there should still be general patterns to attack. Its what the Anfield Wrap have asked a couple of times - "what does a Liverpool goal look like?" Perhaps it's just because Suarez is still such a wildcard that we don't know that yet. Under Rafa it was far more identifiable, it felt.

*As much as I don't put too much stock in formations all the time, there are some quite distinct arrangements - 3 at the back, diamond in midfield, 2 up front and so on.

Offline Arcadian

  • Makes pissed even when sense!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,598
  • Be the change you want to see in the world...
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2013, 12:27:01 pm »

What a marvelous thread.

I'm afraid I'm now way out of my depth. Solid points aplenty.

One I'd like to throw into the mix is this... Say we do start to produce a pool of talented football geniuses, with game intelligence and flexibility abounding et al. What's to stop us from then becoming a farm? Ajax don't keep their brightest talent and neither can Wenger. How long before they'd be off to Nou?


*                         *                           *                            *                         *

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2013, 05:47:32 pm »
What a marvelous thread.

I'm afraid I'm now way out of my depth. Solid points aplenty.

One I'd like to throw into the mix is this... Say we do start to produce a pool of talented football geniuses, with game intelligence and flexibility abounding et al. What's to stop us from then becoming a farm? Ajax don't keep their brightest talent and neither can Wenger. How long before they'd be off to Nou?

That is a risk, but the problem for Ajax, specifically, is that they are not a commercial giant like Liverpool are, and don't have the international reach that Liverpool do. Similarly, they are much like Celtic and formerly Rangers, a big team in a relatively weak league that makes up for what it lacks in finances with technical and tactical development of youth. If Ajax ever got a rich benefactor like City, they wouldn't have to sell anyone, and their youth programme would rival Barca'.

As for Arsenal, they are not as much at the mercy of Bosman as Ajax are (the real reason why there was a continued talent drain from Ajax from the mid-90's onwards), but what we might see in the future for all clubs who invest in youth, is the signing of players to longer contracts, with the domino effect of young players being sold for hefty fees, which get reinvested into the wage structure rather than the transfer budget, in order to keep the remaining young players happy.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline woof

  • Barking up the wrong tree.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,709
Re: Systems - Tactical Flexibility
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2013, 12:38:17 am »
We see the very unique characteristics of each manager's team - Rafa and Mourinho's teams were compact, efficient and more defensive-minded (although it doesn't mean parking a bus. I means limiting the space for the opposition to attack). Wenger's teams had a fantastic attacking DNA. How about Ferguson? I don't think we can say there is one trait/style which defines his teams, present and past. Is it because his approach is to adapt and be flexible with different styles? Is that the reason he's the most successful manager in recent history?