Author Topic: Crush at the Hajj  (Read 4357 times)

Online cdav

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Crush at the Hajj
« on: September 24, 2015, 01:20:01 pm »
Hundreds have been killed during a crush at the Hajj in near Mecca, latest toll is 453:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/24/hajj-crush-kills-scores-near-mecca-live-coverage

Absolutely awful, look through the list of previous tragedies and it is far too common, coming so soon after the crane accident last month:

2015: At least 150 people are killed and 400 injured in a stampede in Mina, on the outskirts of the holy city of Mecca. In the lead-up to hajj, at least 107 people are killed and scores wounded when a crane collapses in bad weather, crashing onto the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Islam’s holiest site.
___
2006: More than 360 pilgrims are killed in a stampede at the desert plain of Mina, near Mecca, where pilgrims carry out a symbolic stoning of the devil by throwing pebbles against three stone walls. The day before the hajj began, an eight-story building being used as a hostel near the Grand Mosque in Mecca collapsed, killing at least 73 people.
___
2004: A crush of pilgrims at Mina kills 244 pilgrims and injures hundreds on the final day of the hajj ceremonies.
___
2001: A stampede at Mina during the final day of the pilgrimage ceremonies kills 35 hajj pilgrims.
___
1998: About 180 pilgrims are trampled to death in panic after several of them fell off an overpass during the final stoning ritual at Mina.
___
1997: At least 340 pilgrims are killed in a fire at the tent city of Mina as the blaze was aided by high winds. More than 1,500 were injured.
___
1994: Some 270 pilgrims are killed in a stampede during the stoning ritual at Mina.
___
1990: The worst hajj-related tragedy claims the lives of 1,426 pilgrims in a stampede in an overcrowded pedestrian tunnel leading to holy sites in Mecca.

Offline Gazza-LFC

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2015, 01:39:04 pm »
Sky News have the figure at 717 so far, RIP to those who have died, would seem The Hajj to Mecca needs a rethink of it's policing with so many incidents.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2015, 01:41:11 pm »
What a waste of life. RIP to those that lost their lives.
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2015, 02:03:10 pm »
All that money Saudi Arabia....bloody joke of a state!

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2015, 04:56:08 pm »
I saw a documentary on the Hal a few years ago and it did look a bit crazy when the guys have to do their seven circles bit

it does tragic given the effort all of them put into getting there

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2015, 05:06:49 pm »
Hundreds have been killed during a crush at the Hajj in near Mecca, latest toll is 453:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/24/hajj-crush-kills-scores-near-mecca-live-coverage

Absolutely awful, look through the list of previous tragedies and it is far too common, coming so soon after the crane accident last month:

2015: At least 150 people are killed and 400 injured in a stampede in Mina, on the outskirts of the holy city of Mecca. In the lead-up to hajj, at least 107 people are killed and scores wounded when a crane collapses in bad weather, crashing onto the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Islam’s holiest site.
___
2006: More than 360 pilgrims are killed in a stampede at the desert plain of Mina, near Mecca, where pilgrims carry out a symbolic stoning of the devil by throwing pebbles against three stone walls. The day before the hajj began, an eight-story building being used as a hostel near the Grand Mosque in Mecca collapsed, killing at least 73 people.
___
2004: A crush of pilgrims at Mina kills 244 pilgrims and injures hundreds on the final day of the hajj ceremonies.
___
2001: A stampede at Mina during the final day of the pilgrimage ceremonies kills 35 hajj pilgrims.
___
1998: About 180 pilgrims are trampled to death in panic after several of them fell off an overpass during the final stoning ritual at Mina.
___
1997: At least 340 pilgrims are killed in a fire at the tent city of Mina as the blaze was aided by high winds. More than 1,500 were injured.
___
1994: Some 270 pilgrims are killed in a stampede during the stoning ritual at Mina.
___
1990: The worst hajj-related tragedy claims the lives of 1,426 pilgrims in a stampede in an overcrowded pedestrian tunnel leading to holy sites in Mecca.

That's over 3000 people, excluding the events of today. Utterly tragic and avoidable loss of life, and given the timescale, there really shouldn't be any repetitions beyond the mid-90's. Terrible.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2015, 07:05:50 pm »
Really sad to read stuff like this.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2015, 07:05:53 pm »
This seems to be a reoccurring headline unfortunately.

They never seem to learn how to organise it properly.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2015, 07:24:23 pm »
Quote from a survivor: 'I was blocked by the security forces who kept preventing anyone from entering, and that doubled the crisis.' The Saudi authorities are trying to blame the pilgrims. The media are calling it a stampede without evidence to back up that description.

This all sounds very familiar.....
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2015, 07:33:52 pm »
I can't believe this has happened again.  Poor people and their families.
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2015, 12:21:58 am »
It's fucking horrible but if we are to follow the route of religious freedom then surely we should say that these people have a pride of place in allah's kingdom.

That's how the hardcore will spin it.

Awful loss of life but bad ideas cause this kind of thing and Islam,  to quote Sam Harris, is the motherload of bad ideas!

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2015, 05:37:50 am »
Managing an event attended by thousands if not millions is a logistical nightmare. You can plan all you want but when people enter panic mode, rationality goes out of the window. How do you control and manage the entry of a massive throng of people,witg  many of them having traversed continents to get there...

The whole thing is tragic but sadly forseeable to an extent. They need to rethink the planning of the event from ground up and enlist professionals to properly manage the event in coordination with SA authorities.

Hopefully this time they arrive upon a workable solution with proper contingency response plans.
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2015, 06:24:58 am »
Managing an event attended by thousands if not millions is a logistical nightmare. You can plan all you want but when people enter panic mode, rationality goes out of the window. How do you control and manage the entry of a massive throng of people,witg  many of them having traversed continents to get there...

The whole thing is tragic but sadly forseeable to an extent. They need to rethink the planning of the event from ground up and enlist professionals to properly manage the event in coordination with SA authorities.

Hopefully this time they arrive upon a workable solution with proper contingency response plans.
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2015, 06:30:14 am »
Isn't the event limited to 2 million people.

The news yesterday were saying they were thinking of letting 7 million attend in the future I imagine that will be put on hold now it would be chaos.
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2015, 09:37:45 am »
I find it fascinating the sheer number of people who accumulate on mass for religious and other reasons.

Was reading an article the other day where it was saying almost 50 million people gather to dip in a river in India and 20+million gathered in Iraq when Husayn ibn Ali died. It is hard to comprehend that about of people in one place at one time.

This latest disaster (not forgetting when the world’s 2nd largest crane collapsed killing a hundred last week) at Macca is incredible sad for all involved. I read they have widened the walk ways a few years ago. Clearly not wide enough!
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2015, 09:49:09 am »
Managing an event attended by thousands if not millions is a logistical nightmare.

It shouldn't be. They know exactly what time people will descend upon the city and they know roughly how many will be there. They've also got enough money as a ation to invest in proper crowd control measures. They should plan much better than this. It's farcical that people die so often there.

Isn't the event limited to 2 million people.

I understand that if you have performed the hajj in the last five years you are not permitted to go again. Once five years have passed, you can obviously start again.

Compare this to the Godavari Maha Pushkaram in India last year. 48.1m(!) people attended and nobody died as a result of crowd trouble.

There are many other gatherings of a much more significant scale which pass without any deaths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_peaceful_gatherings_in_history

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2015, 10:04:48 am »
Compare this to the Godavari Maha Pushkaram in India last year. 48.1m(!) people attended and nobody died as a result of crowd trouble.

Actually 27 people did die according to this article. Most of which elderly people. Which I guess will be the case at Mecca. Old people, sweltering heat, thousands of people in one place at one time. Recipe for disaster.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-07-14/news/64405897_1_holy-dip-godavari-river-pushkaram
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2015, 11:13:44 am »
I find it fascinating the sheer number of people who accumulate on mass for religious and other reasons.

Was reading an article the other day where it was saying almost 50 million people gather to dip in a river in India and 20+million gathered in Iraq when Husayn ibn Ali died. It is hard to comprehend that about of people in one place at one time.

This latest disaster (not forgetting when the world’s 2nd largest crane collapsed killing a hundred last week) at Macca is incredible sad for all involved. I read they have widened the walk ways a few years ago. Clearly not wide enough!


I'm not known for tolerance of any religion, but I had fuck all to do with this!

Tragedy that people have died following any religion, whether it was the fault of the authorities or the pilgrims.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2015, 11:30:46 am »
A growing world Muslim population and crucially a growing middle class means more people will travel for what is a once in a lifetime obligation for Muslims.

Maybe they should introduce a rule that you can only go once it might help the crowds or a cap on the amount of people allowed to Mecca? This would probably be impossible to pull off given the sheer numbers, if only the prophet or whoever scribbled that one down.

On the topic of religious pilgrimages, have a read of this well written and funny account of a man who traveled to Lourdes with his Mother and ailing Father. Give's a bit of an insight into why people go, that it might have more to do with humanity than the supernatural.

http://www.no-yolo.com/non-believing-pilgrim/

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2015, 11:42:23 am »
I'm not known for tolerance of any religion, but I had fuck all to do with this!


Haha - Sorry!
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2015, 12:02:23 pm »
A Saudi official on Newsnight last night said it was all God's will.

"Moving in mysterious ways" again I guess.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2015, 12:26:52 pm »
A Saudi official on Newsnight last night said it was all God's will.

"Moving in mysterious ways" again I guess.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2015, 12:43:24 pm »
Maybe they should introduce a rule that you can only go once it might help the crowds or a cap on the amount of people allowed to Mecca? This would probably be impossible to pull off given the sheer numbers, if only the prophet or whoever scribbled that one down.

Surprising how literal they could be one minute, then figurative, followed by metaphorical and topped off with a healthy dose of error by omission.

On the topic of religious pilgrimages, have a read of this well written and funny account of a man who traveled to Lourdes with his Mother and ailing Father. Give's a bit of an insight into why people go, that it might have more to do with humanity than the supernatural.

http://www.no-yolo.com/non-believing-pilgrim/

We sent my mam and dad to Lourdes years ago because they're both rosary rattling Catholics and had banged on about it for ages. It seems nothing cures the sick like an overpriced bottle of holy water and an Our Lady Lollipop.


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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2015, 01:32:11 pm »


I find it fascinating the sheer number of people who accumulate on mass for religious and other reasons.

Was reading an article the other day where it was saying almost 50 million[ /b] people gather to dip in a river in India and 20+million gathered in Iraq when Husayn ibn Ali died. It is hard to comprehend that about of people in one place at one time.

This latest disaster (not forgetting when the world’s 2nd largest crane collapsed killing a hundred last week) at Macca is incredible sad for all involved. I read they have widened the walk ways a few years ago. Clearly not wide enough!

It is an amazing experience. You just have to be there and  see it actually to comprehend the volume of the actual crowd, numbers dont do justice .

Like the ritual u mentioned in North India (50 mil) there is similar one in Southern India on March  next year where 20mil people are expected to take part  .This many people expected to be in a small town (Kumbakonam)with an area  13 square KM .Imagine how chaotic it will be yet it hardly deters people

.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2015, 01:37:18 pm »
It is an amazing experience. You just have to be there and  see it actually to comprehend the volume of the actual crowd, numbers dont do justice .

To be honest I am more than happy to watch from afar. I could not think of anything worse than being surrounded by millions of people like at one of these mass gatherings. It pisses me off when someone else even gets in the lift I am using at work. And can you imagine the toilet arrangements?! No ta.

That said being an atheist the whole idea of having a paddle in a dirty river with 41 million other people or throwing stones at a wall seems alien to me.
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2015, 12:41:23 am »
For someone totally ignorant as to the why's and when's of going there.  Why is this place so sacred and why at this time of year do millions go there?

Also I seen on the news the Saudi head blaming the crowds for effectively being too fanatical and steaming into each other.  Is this fair?

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2015, 01:58:36 am »
For someone totally ignorant as to the why's and when's of going there.  Why is this place so sacred and why at this time of year do millions go there?

Also I seen on the news the Saudi head blaming the crowds for effectively being too fanatical and steaming into each other.  Is this fair?

My heart goes out to the families, this is an absolutely awful tragedy.

I'll attempt to explain, with the caveat that i'm not a Muslim, and this is my own understanding, so please feel free to correct me if a Muslim/ someone more knowledgeable would like to step in.

Mecca, or more specifically, the Ka'baa is the most holy place in all Islam, its revered in much the same way as the site of the Temple (where the Dome of the Rock Mosque is now) in Jerusalem is revered by Jews. Whilst not getting into the religious history/context, it is considered by Muslims to be the very first place of worship dedicated solely to Allah ever built. When Muslims pray, they are required to face the Ka'baa, no matter their position geographically, meaning the Ka'baa is the focal point of all Muslim prayer on Earth. Thus you can start to see the significance of Mecca and the Ka'baa in Islam, it's the holiest of holies, and non-Muslims are forbidden from even setting foot in Mecca. 

As for the reason Muslims must go there, and at this specific time of year - every healthy, able bodied Muslim is required to make hajj (consider it a great pilgrimage) and physically see the Ka'baa at least once in their lifetime, it is the 5th pillar, or tenet of Islam and is essentially the ultimate expression of Muslim faith. Muslims are required to go during a specific 5 days in the last month of the Islamic year in order to consider the hajj fully fulfilled - you may have noticed within your Facebook or social circles many Muslims saying "Eid Mubrak" which refers to a holy day which marks the end of the period of hajj.

So this creates the situation you see in Saudi Arabia - millions of Muslims descend upon Mecca to fulfill the Hajj within the specified timeframe. I don't know enough to comment on the Saudi explanation of the incident, but this isn't the first time hundreds of people have died during the Hajj, which speaks perhaps to bad management of the event by KSA. There are many events throughout the world which attract far larger audiences, without the casualty rate. Iran certainly seem to think KSA has badly managed this. Apparently there were two streams - one heading out of Jamarat and one heading in, and they collided, causing a stampede effect, with both streams pushing up at the back as the line slowed, causing those caught in the middle to be crushed to death.

If true, then it seems they have been poorly controlled and directed - which implicates that the Saudi management for the event is to blame as Iran are suggesting. On the other hand, Iran is a regional rival of Saudi Arabia and thus jump at any chance to make them look bad. I would hope there will be a review which should hopefully help prevent this type of thing happening again, on the evidence of other large religious gatherings, its totally preventable.
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2015, 02:05:37 am »
Shame.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2015, 06:37:32 am »
OT: As to people not understanding why Iran are not mates with them is because they're Persians while those across the river from Iraq onwards to Israel-Palestine are Arabs as well as the dispute on the actual successor to the Prophet.

It's fascinating that many of my well read, well educated friends don't know this and persists on calling them 'Arabs' when they are somewhat distinct culturally and historically.

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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #29 on: October 9, 2015, 09:58:16 pm »
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Re: Crush at the Hajj
« Reply #30 on: October 9, 2015, 09:59:33 pm »
How awful......
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