Author Topic: Freedom of speech  (Read 87748 times)

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #480 on: January 19, 2015, 03:55:52 pm »
I know this is supposed to be about free speech, but I'm not really happy with ant jokes to be honest. I'm a bit anti.
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Offline KiNki

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #481 on: January 19, 2015, 04:05:01 pm »
Careful you'll upset the militANTS.




Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #482 on: January 19, 2015, 04:06:40 pm »
And I wouldn't mind, but they're all six-footers!
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Offline Trada

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #483 on: January 19, 2015, 06:00:04 pm »

GCHQ captured emails of journalists from top international media

• Snowden files reveal emails of BBC, NY Times and more
• Agency includes investigative journalists on ‘threat’ list
• Editors call on Cameron to act against snooping on media



GCHQ’s bulk surveillance of electronic communications has scooped up emails to and from journalists working for some of the US and UK’s largest media organisations, analysis of documents released by whistleblower Edward Snowden reveals.

Emails from the BBC, Reuters, the Guardian, the New York Times, Le Monde, the Sun, NBC and the Washington Post were saved by GCHQ and shared on the agency’s intranet as part of a test exercise by the signals intelligence agency.

The disclosure comes as the British government faces intense pressure to protect the confidential communications of reporters, MPs and lawyers from snooping.

The journalists’ communications were among 70,000 emails harvested in the space of less than 10 minutes on one day in November 2008 by one of GCHQ’s numerous taps on the fibre-optic cables that make up the backbone of the internet.

The communications, which were sometimes simple mass-PR emails sent to dozens of journalists but also included correspondence between reporters and editors discussing stories, were retained by GCHQ and were available to all cleared staff on the agency intranet. There is nothing to indicate whether or not the journalists were intentionally targeted.

The mails appeared to have been captured and stored as the output of a then-new tool being used to strip irrelevant data out of the agency’s tapping process.

New evidence from other UK intelligence documents revealed by Snowden also shows that a GCHQ information security assessment listed “investigative journalists” as a threat in a hierarchy alongside terrorists or hackers.

Senior editors and lawyers in the UK have called for the urgent introduction of a freedom of expression law amid growing concern over safeguards proposed by ministers to meet concerns over the police use of surveillance powers linked to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (Ripa).

More than 100 editors, including those from all the national newspapers, have signed a letter, coordinated by the Society of Editors and Press Gazette, to the UK prime minister, David Cameron, protesting at snooping on journalists’ communications.

In the wake of terror attacks on the Charlie Hebdo offices and a Jewish grocer in Paris, Cameron has renewed calls for further bulk-surveillance powers, such as those which netted these journalistic communications.

Ripa has been used to access journalists’ communications without a warrrant, with recent cases including police accessing the phone records of Tom Newton-Dunn, the Sun’s political editor, over the Plebgate investigation. The call records of Mail on Sunday reporters involved in the paper’s coverage of Chris Huhne’s speeding row were also accessed in this fashion.

Under Ripa, neither the police nor the security services need to seek the permission of a judge to investigate any UK national’s phone records – instead, they must obtain permission from an appointed staff member from the same organisation, not involved in their investigation.

However, there are some suggestions in the documents that the collection of billing data by GCHQ under Ripa goes wider – and that it may not be confined to specific target individuals.

A top secret document discussing Ripa initially explains the fact that billing records captured under Ripa are available to any government agency is “unclassified” provided that there is “no mention of bulk”.

The GCHQ document goes on to warn that the fact that billing records “kept under Ripa are not limited to warranted targets” must be kept as one of the agency’s most tightly guarded secrets, at a classification known as “Top secret strap 2”.

That is two levels higher than a normal top secret classification – as it refers to “HMG [Her Majesty’s government] relationships with industry that have areas of extreme sensitivity”.

Internal security advice shared among the intelligence agencies was often as preoccupied with the activities of journalists as with more conventional threats such as foreign intelligence, hackers or criminals.

One restricted document intended for those in army intelligence warned that “journalists and reporters representing all types of news media represent a potential threat to security”.

It continued: “Of specific concern are ‘investigative journalists’ who specialise in defence-related exposés either for profit or what they deem to be of the public interest.

“All classes of journalists and reporters may try either a formal approach or an informal approach, possibly with off-duty personnel, in their attempts to gain official information to which they are not entitled.”

It goes on to caution “such approaches pose a real threat”, and tells staff they must be “immediately reported” to the chain-of-command.

GCHQ information security assessments, meanwhile, routinely list journalists between “terrorism” and “hackers” as “influencing threat sources”, with one matrix scoring journalists as having a “capability” score of two out of five, and a “priority” of three out of five, scoring an overall “low” information security risk.

Terrorists, listed immediately above investigative journalists on the document, were given a much higher “capability” score of four out of five, but a lower “priority” of two. The matrix concluded terrorists were therefore a “moderate” information security risk.

A spokesman for GCHQ said: “It is longstanding policy that we do not comment on intelligence matters. Furthermore, all of GCHQ’s work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework, which ensures that our activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate, and that there is rigorous oversight, including from the secretary of state, the interception and intelligence services commissioners and the parliamentary intelligence and security committee.

“All our operational processes rigorously support this position. In addition, the UK’s interception regime is entirely compatible with the European convention on human rights.”

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/gchq-intercepted-emails-journalists-ny-times-bbc-guardian-le-monde-reuters-nbc-washington-post?CMP=twt_gu
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #484 on: January 21, 2015, 06:15:16 pm »
Freedom of speech? Not if they get their way

Quote
Doha (AFP) - A leading Islamic organisation has called on the United Nations to make "contempt of religions" illegal and urged the West to protect Muslim communities following the attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo.

The Qatar-based International Union of Muslim Scholars, headed by influential preacher Yusuf al-Qaradawi, appealed to Muslims to continue peaceful protests against images of the Prophet Mohammed but "not to resort to any violence".

The latest cartoon of the prophet in Charlie Hebdo has angered many Muslims and triggered protests in Asia, Africa and the Middle East.

In a statement released Tuesday, the union said there should be protection for "prophets" and urged Islamic countries to submit a draft law to the UN calling for defamation of religions to be outlawed.

The union said the UN should then issue a "law criminalising contempt of religions and the prophets and all the holy sites".

It also called for the West "to protect Muslim communities from attacks, whether they are citizens or residents or visitors".

The union has condemned the publication of a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed holding a "Je suis Charlie" sign under the headline "All is forgiven" in the first Charlie Hebdo edition since Islamist gunmen killed 12 people in an attack on its offices.

It said that the new drawing would give "credibility" to the idea that "the West is against Islam" and warned the image would incite further hatred.

Qaradawi, 88, is seen as a spiritual guide of Egypt's banned Muslim Brotherhood, the movement of ousted former president Mohamed Morsi.
http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-scholars-urge-un-outlaw-contempt-religions-001230620.html
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Offline KiNki

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #485 on: January 21, 2015, 06:32:00 pm »
Didnt they already try this with the european court of human rights and their case got thrown out or something.  There wasn't enough support for it.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #486 on: January 21, 2015, 06:42:48 pm »
Probably.

The problem seems to be that theists want the right to insult the no religious and other religions, but believe that there is no right to insult their religion.

Making insulting religions wrong is utterly insane. Anything that fails to agree with that religion could be construed as insulting it.  Gay people, atheists, people who have left the religion....  Where would it stop?
Well it stopped in the past because it was unworkable.  Oh, and of course it was utterly wrong in every principle of human rights ever discussed.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #487 on: January 21, 2015, 06:53:26 pm »
What is offensive to religion?

The Buddhas of Bamiyan were blown up because they were idols.



"Muslims should be proud of smashing idols. It has given praise to Allah that we have destroyed them..." "We are destroying the statues in accordance with Islamic law and it is purely a religious issue"

Statues are offensive, cartoons are offensive, homosexuality is offensive... and so on.
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Offline Magix

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #488 on: January 21, 2015, 06:54:31 pm »
If they're concerned about 'contempt of religion' shouldn't they be expending similar time and effort protesting the Boko Haram atrocities instead?

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #489 on: January 21, 2015, 06:54:39 pm »
And what is a religion?  Scientology?  Why not?

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline KiNki

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #490 on: January 21, 2015, 07:30:10 pm »





Offline Trada

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #491 on: January 22, 2015, 12:05:04 am »
Cartoon in tomorrows Independent

Beware graphic image and can not be unseen you have been warned.

Spoiler
[close]
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #492 on: January 22, 2015, 12:36:03 am »
Decent article for anyone interested in how Islam was corrupted from being a religion that encouraged free thinking into the mess that we see today;

Islamic history is full of free thinkers - but recent attempts to suppress critical thought are verging on the absurd

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/islamic-history-is-full-of-free-thinkers--but-recent-attempts-to-suppress-critical-thought-are-verging-on-the-absurd-9993777.html

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #493 on: January 22, 2015, 10:04:05 am »
Decent article for anyone interested in how Islam was corrupted from being a religion that encouraged free thinking into the mess that we see today;

Islamic history is full of free thinkers - but recent attempts to suppress critical thought are verging on the absurd

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/islamic-history-is-full-of-free-thinkers--but-recent-attempts-to-suppress-critical-thought-are-verging-on-the-absurd-9993777.html


"The West's best hope of dealing with the rise of Islamic extremism is to challenge the doctrines manufactured by religious scholars past and present, argues Ziauddin Sardar"

As against the doctrines that weren't?

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #494 on: January 22, 2015, 10:21:20 am »
"The West's best hope of dealing with the rise of Islamic extremism is to challenge the doctrines manufactured by religious scholars past and present, argues Ziauddin Sardar"

As against the doctrines that weren't?

By "doctrines that weren't" I assume you mean the Koran and Mohammed's words?

In which case, I dont think Sardar is saying they shouldn't be challenged. I think he's saying that the rise of Islamic extremism is linked to the doctrines manufactured by religious scholars, so challenging them will help combat Islamic extremism. (i.e. challenging the Koran is fine - the Koran even says so - but to combat Islamic extremism, it will be extremely effective to challenge the doctrines of religious scholars).

Apologies if I misunderstood your point.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #495 on: January 22, 2015, 10:29:01 am »
My point was that all religious doctrines are manufactured.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #496 on: January 22, 2015, 10:30:04 am »
By "doctrines that weren't" I assume you mean the Koran and Mohammed's words?

In which case, I dont think Sardar is saying they shouldn't be challenged. I think he's saying that the rise of Islamic extremism is linked to the doctrines manufactured by religious scholars, so challenging them will help combat Islamic extremism. (i.e. challenging the Koran is fine - the Koran even says so - but to combat Islamic extremism, it will be extremely effective to challenge the doctrines of religious scholars).

Apologies if I misunderstood your point.

He's just being facetious mate, don't waste your energies.   
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #497 on: January 22, 2015, 11:15:03 am »
He's just being facetious mate, don't waste your energies.   

Although it's an important point Kev. It's gratifying, I think, that in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo and Jewish executions, that liberal commentators are now beginning to say that the Koran itself should be scrutinised and that it's mad to simply pass Islam off as "a religion of peace" when it is, clearly, also "a religion of war." As a reading of the Koran will amply testify. 
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #498 on: January 22, 2015, 12:13:12 pm »
Although it's an important point Kev. It's gratifying, I think, that in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo and Jewish executions, that liberal commentators are now beginning to say that the Koran itself should be scrutinised and that it's mad to simply pass Islam off as "a religion of peace" when it is, clearly, also "a religion of war." As a reading of the Koran will amply testify. 

All the Abrahamic religions are based on a whole raft of nonsense that reflect the time that they were written the key is how that is interpreted as religious teaching.

Islam has two problems with that approach, firstly the primacy of the Koran and secondly the fact that a priestly power structure of interpretation is sort of forbidden.  It was a structure that served it well for the first 800 years of existence (when Christianity was busily being reinterpreted for their own ends by despotic princes and pontiffs).  Sadly over the years Islam has had its own share of additional interpretations layered over the top and now lacks a power structure to change that. 
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #499 on: January 22, 2015, 03:10:15 pm »
All the Abrahamic religions are based on a whole raft of nonsense that reflect the time that they were written the key is how that is interpreted as religious teaching.

I think it's true they are all based on nonsense. It's partly the time they were written, but it's the place too. Greek philosophical ideas are older than the Koran and the New Testament of course and make far more sense. But ancient Greece was a sophisticated civilisation whereas Mo' was an uneducated and illiterate trader in a society that wasn't quite on the level of Periclean Athens! But, if you're right about the "raft of nonsense", the question partly becomes "how to interpret it" so the nonsense doesn't becomes dangerous. The only way must be NOT TO TAKE IT LITERALLY.

Islam has two problems with that approach, firstly the primacy of the Koran and secondly the fact that a priestly power structure of interpretation is sort of forbidden.  It was a structure that served it well for the first 800 years of existence (when Christianity was busily being reinterpreted for their own ends by despotic princes and pontiffs).  Sadly over the years Islam has had its own share of additional interpretations layered over the top and now lacks a power structure to change that. 

Large claims are made for the history of Islam - as against, say, the bloody history of Christianity. I say "claims" because the state of scholarly historical research into Islamic societies is poor when compared with the historiography on 'Christendom'. I don't know enough about the history of Islam to say that its "structure...served it well for the first 800 years of existence". I suspect that's a bit of a myth. Islam, after all, had its own brutal warlords, tyrants, genocidaires and slave traders. It also quickly led to stagnation in nearly every country it colonised. But, for sure, it's an interesting history and I'd like to know more.

I think it's also fair to say that despotic  princes and pontiffs weren't the only people "reinterpreting" Christianity. Enlightened thinkers were too - from Erasmus to Servetus and beyond. In fact, as we all sort of know, it was when Christians stopped taking the Bible literally, that it was de-fanged.

It would be a wonderful thing for human progress if this process could start taking place within Islam.

 
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #500 on: January 22, 2015, 03:19:56 pm »
I don't know enough about the history of Islam to say that its "structure...served it well for the first 800 years of existence". I suspect that's a bit of a myth. Islam, after all, had its own brutal warlords, tyrants, genocidaires and slave traders.

I know a little bit about this, from the Treaty of Tripoli.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

And the background....

"For three centuries up to the time of the Treaty, the Mediterranean Sea lanes had been preyed on by the North African Muslim states of the Barbary Coast (Tripoli, Algiers, Morocco and Tunis) through privateering (government-sanctioned piracy). Hostages captured by the Barbary pirates were either ransomed or forced into slavery, contributing to the greater Ottoman slave trade (of which the Barbary states were a segment)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #501 on: January 22, 2015, 03:47:50 pm »
My point really was that those despots could not corral Islam to legitimise and prolong their position in quite the same way as their Christian brethren could.  This, for a while seems to have given those Islamic cultures and advantage over Christendom.  The downside was that when post renaissance thinkers, particularly in northern europe started to re-evaluate their own Christian faith they dragged that faith with them.  Islam it seems is more resistant to such reappraisals.

Essentially I think we're agreeing.  Going back to the original point though it will be very difficult for a religion which eschews priestly authority and invests such literal meaning in the Koran to make similar changes to those that Christian societies have done.  So Corky is unlikely to get his wish of a complete rethink.  All the subsequent layers of arid Wahabi nonsense should be fair game though.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #502 on: January 22, 2015, 03:50:22 pm »
Piracy is an interesting one though, having had a trundle around Seville's excellent Museum of the Colonies or whatever it is called, it's notable that Francis Drake is not seen as the noble bowls playing sailor hero of my English history books.  :)
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Offline saoirse08

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #503 on: January 23, 2015, 10:38:31 am »
This link will offend Saudi Arabian princes and mullahs (hope that's ok).

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/postponement-raif-badawi-flogging-medical-grounds-exposes-shocking-brutalit

Raif's second round of flogging has been postponed because the wounds inflicted by the first round haven't properly healed yet.

Just a reminder that the man is being flogged 1000 times because he said something that the authorities didn't like.

Fucking savages. 

In another victory for free speech and universal human rights, Prince Charles is apparently attending King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia's funeral.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #504 on: January 23, 2015, 01:14:36 pm »
My point was that all religious doctrines are manufactured.

They are all man made and therefore flawed so i concur with your point.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #505 on: January 23, 2015, 01:18:12 pm »
In another victory for free speech and universal human rights, Prince Charles is apparently attending King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia's funeral.

Too many trade links to offend the family at this sad time.  ;)
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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #506 on: January 23, 2015, 05:10:14 pm »
When the 'other' Holocaust of the 20th Century, the Armenian genocide which left over 1 million civilians dead, is still not officially recognised in the UK and still vehemently denied by the Turkish Government, you realise we all still have a long way to go with regards to Freedom of Speech. In Turkey today, affirming to the mass genocide can result in imprisonment.

I openly admit I hadn't really heard of the Armenian genocide until a good Armenian friend of mine told me all about it, and gave me a book to read which highlighted some of the atrocious crimes committed against the displaced Armenian women and children. Either way, it deserves global recognition like any other mass genocide...

‘The Armenians want an acknowledgment that the 1915 massacre was a crime’

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #507 on: January 23, 2015, 05:27:22 pm »
It took the Brits 150 years to apologise for the Famine.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #508 on: January 23, 2015, 05:46:36 pm »
It took the Brits 150 years to apologise for the Famine.
And Japan haven't either for many of their WWII crimes. I wonder if geographical location has a lot to do with it? Would explain why Germany is far more open and honest about their history.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #509 on: January 23, 2015, 06:07:06 pm »
When the 'other' Holocaust of the 20th Century, the Armenian genocide which left over 1 million civilians dead, is still not officially recognised in the UK and still vehemently denied by the Turkish Government, you realise we all still have a long way to go with regards to Freedom of Speech. In Turkey today, affirming to the mass genocide can result in imprisonment.

I openly admit I hadn't really heard of the Armenian genocide until a good Armenian friend of mine told me all about it, and gave me a book to read which highlighted some of the atrocious crimes committed against the displaced Armenian women and children. Either way, it deserves global recognition like any other mass genocide...

‘The Armenians want an acknowledgment that the 1915 massacre was a crime’

The 'other' holocaust? What about Rwanda? Cambodia? Ukraine? Congo? and so on... I'm not sure what point you are making.

And it's disingenuous to say that the Armenian genocide is not officially recognised by the UK. Various governments acknowledge the massacres but do not agree they are genocide by definition. And what does that have to do with freedom of speech in this country?

The fact that you hadn't heard about it before suggests the problem may not be freedom of speech but lack of interest.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #510 on: January 23, 2015, 06:07:38 pm »
And Japan haven't either for many of their WWII crimes. I wonder if geographical location has a lot to do with it? Would explain why Germany is far more open and honest about their history.

Japan denies the Nanking massacre ever occurred. I understand that these things, together with many other Japanese atrocities from that period, just aren't taught in Japanese schools. Not unlike the subject of the Holocaust which is largely absent from most Arab schools or if ever mentioned at all, is regarded as exaggerated and largely a Zionist plot to gain sympathy and land. There again, I don't expect the crucial role of the Arab slave traders in the whole western Slave Trade era is mentioned much either.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #511 on: January 23, 2015, 06:12:52 pm »
So you're not allowed deny or indeed mock the Holocaust in some places. I mentioned the Irish Famine above. When I was a kid, I did up (with extensive help) a family tree on my Dad's side and got back all the way to 1847 when the tree became a sea of x's. Huge swathes of my ancestors, wiped out in a couple of years. Nonetheless, if anyone wants to take the piss, I don't care. It was a long time ago and everyone involved in long dead, not just the victims.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #512 on: January 23, 2015, 06:31:28 pm »


I suppose there is a positive in it all, like so many others in or from Liverpool, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Famine or certainly the post Famine era forcing some of my distant ancestors on my Mums side to leave.
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #513 on: January 23, 2015, 06:31:54 pm »
Japan denies the Nanking massacre ever occurred. I understand that these things, together with many other Japanese atrocities from that period, just aren't taught in Japanese schools. Not unlike the subject of the Holocaust which is largely absent from most Arab schools or if ever mentioned at all, is regarded as exaggerated and largely a Zionist plot to gain sympathy and land. There again, I don't expect the crucial role of the Arab slave traders in the whole western Slave Trade era is mentioned much either.

I think most countries do to this a certain extent, although maybe not as extreme as Japan.

We didn't learn anything about the atrocities carried out by Britain during the Empire for example at my school. During my student days a bunch of us were having this very same discussion about how ridiculous it was that these things weren't taught - it was a common theme amongst half a dozen of us from around the country, so I dont think it was just that my school was particularly bad.

If I'm not wrong I believe France also has a lot of trouble accepting the bad things they did in Africa too and therefore dont teach it.

I think Germany's openness about their past is the exception rather than the norm.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #514 on: January 23, 2015, 06:39:33 pm »
So you're not allowed deny or indeed mock the Holocaust in some places. I mentioned the Irish Famine above. When I was a kid, I did up (with extensive help) a family tree on my Dad's side and got back all the way to 1847 when the tree became a sea of x's. Huge swathes of my ancestors, wiped out in a couple of years. Nonetheless, if anyone wants to take the piss, I don't care. It was a long time ago and everyone involved in long dead, not just the victims.
I agree.  Gagging stupidity makes it seem like there is something to cover up.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #515 on: January 23, 2015, 06:42:06 pm »
So you're not allowed deny or indeed mock the Holocaust in some places. I mentioned the Irish Famine above. When I was a kid, I did up (with extensive help) a family tree on my Dad's side and got back all the way to 1847 when the tree became a sea of x's. Huge swathes of my ancestors, wiped out in a couple of years. Nonetheless, if anyone wants to take the piss, I don't care. It was a long time ago and everyone involved in long dead, not just the victims.

You mean I could've got away with the potato gag I voluntarily self-censored.  Damnit.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #516 on: January 23, 2015, 06:42:08 pm »


I tend to agree, certainly about Germany and its willingness to confront its recent past.

However, maybe it was just the school I attended and some far sighted teachers, but back in the mid 60's and before I was 11,  we were taught of things like the Indian Mutiny and the terrible retributions afterwards, the Slave Trade, the POW camps during the Boer war, the Irish Uprising and the Famine and many of the terrible inequities and injustices of the old Empire. We were also made well aware of the awfulness of the South African apartheid regime, Sharpeville had only just occurred a few years earlier.

Perhaps this was simply as it was a time when the nightly news would often feature some flag lowering ceremony in some far flung corner as it got its rightful Independence.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #517 on: January 23, 2015, 06:53:21 pm »
I think it depends a lot on the teacher you had, we had a Mr Murphy for History and rest assured the Famine was properly covered as part of our British and European History 1789-1871 O level syllabus along with other British misdeeds of the period.
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Offline macca888

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #518 on: January 23, 2015, 06:57:42 pm »
It took the Brits 150 years to apologise for the Famine.

I suppose there is a positive in it all, like so many others in or from Liverpool, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Famine or certainly the post Famine era forcing some of my distant ancestors on my Mums side to leave.


To be fair though, in an attempt to even things out a little, Ireland still hasn't apologised for sending any of my family over.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #519 on: January 23, 2015, 07:01:48 pm »

To be fair though, in an attempt to even things out a little, Ireland still hasn't apologised for sending any of my family over.

I don't think they've apologized for their sending the CB's over here yet..... ;)
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