Author Topic: Freedom of speech  (Read 86789 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #720 on: January 26, 2015, 11:36:54 pm »
Very family/group orientated, gender bender roles too, women could hunt and gather, men could mind the kids and cook if they wanted,....where'd it all go wrong.

She wanted earrings so we started trading and one thing led to another.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #721 on: January 26, 2015, 11:38:13 pm »
From what I understand, we had pretty sweet lives back before agriculture. Hunter gatherers worked very small hours, spent most of their time arsing around and screwing.
From a biological point of view we are still hardwired for that way of living.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Max_powers

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #722 on: January 26, 2015, 11:40:48 pm »
From what I understand, we had pretty sweet lives back before agriculture. Hunter gatherers worked very small hours, spent most of their time arsing around and screwing.

Yeah apart from disease, natural disasters, wild animals and the fact that most people died before they got past teens it sounds perfect. I think Morgan Spurlock did a documentary where a group of city folk try to live as hunter gather community for a week. Of course they didn't have the skills needed but even if they had those skills it can be a brutally harsh life.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #723 on: January 26, 2015, 11:57:38 pm »
Alright.

NAMBLA. North American Man/Boy Love Association. I'm not even sure if they exist, really, but searching was making me feel creepy so let's assume they do.

How do we all feel about their right to free speech?

They can have their association and discuss the idea of having sex with kids I guess but the minute they indulge in child pornography or any actual attempts to get kids into bed, or indeed do anything that actually breaks the law with respect to sex, they would have to be arrested and trialled under whatever applicable law.

Is this NAMBLA thing an euphemism for a collection of catholic priests ?
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #724 on: January 27, 2015, 12:04:13 am »
Very family/group orientated, gender bender roles too, women could hunt and gather, men could mind the kids and cook if they wanted,....where'd it all go wrong.

Do you have a link for that
that?

Offline Ken-Obi

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #725 on: January 27, 2015, 12:16:26 am »
Sigh, back to the old god vs atheist 'debate' again with the involvement of the same people - you could literally copy and paste the posts and predict the outcome.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #726 on: January 27, 2015, 12:18:51 am »
Sigh, back to the old god vs atheist 'debate' again with the involvement of the same people - you could literally copy and paste the posts and predict the outcome.

We're on the right to free speech of paedophiles now, with a sideline debate about hunter gatherer society.

Do try to keep up.

Offline macca888

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #727 on: January 27, 2015, 12:37:10 am »
Sigh, back to the old god vs atheist 'debate' again with the involvement of the same people - you could literally copy and paste the posts and predict the outcome.


Time to forget about Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens versus the religious scholars, and just enjoy two comedians at work.

Then decide which side to pick, whether you're an atheist or a believer, based on which one you think is funnier. Simple.



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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #728 on: January 27, 2015, 12:37:40 am »
Do you have a link for that
that?

It was about indigenous tribes/native americans gender roles than cavemen.  Men in the main still did most of the hunter gathering and women in the main did the motherly cooking, nurturing roles but there were lots of examples of these 'groups' being ok with men staying at home doing nurturing and women going hunting, if that's what floated the individuals boat.   I think i linked it in the kid smacking thread regarding parents spending more time with their kids.

anyway some links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_roles_among_the_indigenous_peoples_of_North_America

Heres a more recent exampe
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/jun/15/childrensservices.familyandrelationships


Offline Ken-Obi

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #729 on: January 27, 2015, 12:39:19 am »
We're on the right to free speech of paedophiles now, with a sideline debate about hunter gatherer society.

Do try to keep up.
Sorry. :sad
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #730 on: January 27, 2015, 12:46:17 am »
Can somebody clarify something for me please? Do I need to make any alterations to my chess set?
Stick the Bishop up the Queens fanny. That way the bishop will have a funny hat like the pope.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline zero zero

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #731 on: January 27, 2015, 12:52:29 am »
Sigh, back to the old god vs atheist 'debate' again with the involvement of the same people - you could literally copy and paste the posts and predict the outcome.
We could have a different debate, if you like.

We were in agreement on the freedom of religious worship and thought. What do you feel about the right to draw the Prophet Mohamed?

The way I rationalised things (without reference to the Gospels according to Dawkins, Dennet or Hitchens) is that: The freedom of religious belief is equal to the freedom not to have a religious belief. A muslim is free to do what they believe makes them a good muslim. And I am equally free not to be a good muslim. Therefore the Charlie Hebdo satirical cartoons are an expression of not having to be bound by the strictures of Islam.

What do you think?

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #732 on: January 27, 2015, 01:00:05 am »
What do you think?
Let Allah decide. If he exists, the cartoonists will burn eternally in hell anyway. You would think that would be enough for his merry followers?
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Ken-Obi

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #733 on: January 27, 2015, 01:04:12 am »
We could have a different debate, if you like.

We were in agreement on the freedom of religious worship and thought. What do you feel about the right to draw the Prophet Mohamed?

The way I rationalised things (without reference to the Gospels according to Dawkins, Dennet or Hitchens) is that: The freedom of religious belief is equal to the freedom not to have a religious belief. A muslim is free to do what they believe makes them a good muslim. And I am equally free not to be a good muslim. Therefore the Charlie Hebdo satirical cartoons are an expression of not having to be bound by the strictures of Islam.

What do you think?
Agreed. The moment they pick up a gun and started harming people should these specific people be put down and be tried for it - it is what it is, murder. What they are motivated by is irrelevant and others who follow the same religion should not automatically be labelled 'terrorists'. Believing in something is one thing, acting on it is another.
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Offline zero zero

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #734 on: January 27, 2015, 01:11:23 am »
Let Allah decide. If he exists, the cartoonists will burn eternally in hell anyway. You would think that would be enough for his merry followers?
Fundamentally I agree it's a massive vote of no confidence that IS and their like choose to do Allah's work for him on earth, rather than leave it to Him. We're infidels and face an eternity of torture for our temerity to know of Islam and still reject it.

I'm scared of women -> I refuse they get educated in case I look a total dullard -> they must wear a burka because of men's lusts -> but I'm holy -> which is why I get 72 virgins in the afterlife for my piety... of course after I fuck them the first time they are the same as my mum.... ummm

Offline zero zero

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #735 on: January 27, 2015, 01:31:50 am »
Agreed. The moment they pick up a gun and started harming people should these specific people be put down and be tried for it - it is what it is, murder.
I agree with this
Quote
What they are motivated by is irrelevant...
I don't agree with this though. They (IS for example) are motivated by their religion. There's no point trying to deny it. They use His name as they behead unbelievers. What I will acknowledge is that the parts of the Quran they quote have been pulled out of it's historical context - the taking of Mecca (by force of arms). Beheading "unbelievers" was for the unbelievers that controlled Mecca. Not every non-Muslim on the planet.
Quote
...and others who follow the same religion should not automatically be labelled 'terrorists'.
Of course not. There's no collective responsibility for the fact that a small minority Muslims insist on committing acts of terrorism.

The thing I'd like to see from all the "good" Muslims is their categorical acceptance that anyone, muslim or non-muslim, has the freedom to draw the Prophet if they so choose. Too many Religionists are quick to condemn the murderers of the CH cartoonists (the easy bit), but can't bring themselves to admit that the, now dead, CH cartoonists were and should be free to draw what they wished.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #736 on: January 27, 2015, 07:20:58 am »
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #737 on: January 27, 2015, 07:44:38 am »
From the Saudi gazette

Quote
RIYADH — The United Nations Human Rights Council has decided to discuss the issue of contempt of religions and to introduce a resolution for vote at its next session in March at the request of the Kingdom.
 
The Kingdom’s request was submitted by Saudi Ambassador to UN in Geneva Faisal Trad to the High Commissioner for Human Rights Prince Zeid Bin Ra’ad Al-Hussein.
 
The resolution, to be put to a vote at the Human Rights Council, demands that the freedom of expression should not cross the lines which represent an insult to religions and beliefs, and demands an end to deliberate insults to Islam.
 
The Kingdom sought in 2011 a similar resolution by the Human Rights Council but Western countries coordinated diplomatic alliance to water down the text of the resolution on the grounds that there should be no prejudice to the freedom of expression and the press.
 
They re-worded the resolution to include a compromise language stating the prevention of religious intolerance.
 
This Resolution No. 18/16 of 2011 led to the of postponing of an in-depth discussion on this issue. But the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, Egypt, Pakistan and Turkey continued to seek at international forums the re-introduction of the issue for discussion.
 
The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights during the funeral of the victims of ‘Charlie Hebdo’ condemned the attacks on the magazine but at the same time stressed that the cartoons hurt his feelings and the feelings of millions of Muslims around the world.
http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentid=20150127231805

I somewhat understand people saying we shouldn't go out of the way to offend people's deeply held beliefs (not that I agree with it).  However, Saudi is the perfect example of just how subjective religions are with their idea of contempt or offence.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 07:49:22 am by Tepid water »
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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #738 on: January 27, 2015, 09:47:06 am »


2 pages in one evening!

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #739 on: January 27, 2015, 10:11:06 am »
Very family/group orientated, gender bender roles too, women could hunt and gather, men could mind the kids and cook if they wanted,....where'd it all go wrong.

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Offline electricghost

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #740 on: January 27, 2015, 10:58:04 am »
I don't agree with this though. They (IS for example) are motivated by their religion. There's no point trying to deny it. They use His name as they behead unbelievers. What I will acknowledge is that the parts of the Quran they quote have been pulled out of it's historical context - the taking of Mecca (by force of arms). Beheading "unbelievers" was for the unbelievers that controlled Mecca. Not every non-Muslim on the planet.

I agree that context can be important, but the passage I think you are referring to still calls for the killing of people for their lack of belief. An instruction given and carried out by a god and his prophet. There is no context in which this becomes a moral act, and that is only one of dozens of Quaranic passages that calls for the killing/harming/fighting of non believers. It isn't surprising to see some Muslims doing the terrible things they do when they have been fed a narrative like this.

Quote
Of course not. There's no collective responsibility for the fact that a small minority Muslims insist on committing acts of terrorism.


Absolutely
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Offline Magix

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #741 on: January 27, 2015, 11:16:52 am »
Isn't the doctrine of abrogation in play in the reading of the Qur'an? Or is it not universally adopted amongst Muslims?

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #742 on: January 27, 2015, 11:20:29 am »
There's no collective responsibility for the fact that a small minority Muslims insist on committing acts of terrorism.

I'm going to adopt the tactic used by religious folks in relation to the Hebdo affair.

"There's no collective responsibility for the fact that a small minority Muslims insist on committing acts of terrorism......but......."

An instruction given and carried out by a god and his prophet. There is no context in which this becomes a moral act, and that is only one of dozens of Quaranic passages that calls for the killing/harming/fighting of non believers. It isn't surprising to see some Muslims doing the terrible things they do when they have been fed a narrative like this.


Offline Corkboy

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #743 on: January 27, 2015, 12:26:49 pm »
Yeah apart from disease, natural disasters, wild animals and the fact that most people died before they got past teens it sounds perfect. I think Morgan Spurlock did a documentary where a group of city folk try to live as hunter gather community for a week. Of course they didn't have the skills needed but even if they had those skills it can be a brutally harsh life.
About thirty years of age when your teeth fell out and they left you to starve...

I think you're both looking at it from the viewpoint of a modern First Worlder. If you had the life of a sub Saharan child, or a slave worker in Bangladesh, or even a factory worker in China, you might look at the hunter gatherer odds a little differently. Living longer isn't always living better.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #744 on: January 27, 2015, 01:34:33 pm »
I think you're both looking at it from the viewpoint of a modern First Worlder. If you had the life of a sub Saharan child, or a slave worker in Bangladesh, or even a factory worker in China, you might look at the hunter gatherer odds a little differently. Living longer isn't always living better.

I really doubt that. Even those people would much rather live this life than living in a forest and having all those problems. Even in places like Bangladesh and sub-Saharan Africa, there is some scope no matter how little to get out of abject poverty at least with kids that are educated and so on. They see millions of people rise out of poverty around them so while it might be utterly awful there is still a chance they could get out of it. An awfully small chance, too small IMO but there is a chance.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #745 on: January 27, 2015, 02:17:59 pm »
Moderating a thread entitled 'Freedom of Speech' has given us a few headaches recently. The kind of adversarial and sometimes accusatory tenor of the posts have stretched the notion of politely argued debate that we aim for on the site. I don't think I'm the only mod who has been drawn into personalised and aggressive posts at the expense of civility, and I apologise for that.

However (there's always a however with moderating), from this point onward it would be nice to be nice. We have never claimed that anyone has free speech on RAWK; on the other hand, we don't wan to have to start depriving people of the right to post because of an outburst in this thread that we feel has over stepped the mark. Please refrain from ad hominem stuff, the descent into Godwinism, and if possible, maybe we could all stick to the argument about free speech and try to avoid stumbling down some of the arcane alleyways we have frequented over recent pages.

If we can hold our fingers over the keyboard for a brief moment while we think about what we are posting, things will progress in a more pleasant manner. Otherwise, we'll fuck you off RAWK for a few days. ;)

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #746 on: January 27, 2015, 04:03:23 pm »
Moderating a thread entitled 'Freedom of Speech' has given us a few headaches recently. The kind of adversarial and sometimes accusatory tenor of the posts have stretched the notion of politely argued debate that we aim for on the site. I don't think I'm the only mod who has been drawn into personalised and aggressive posts at the expense of civility, and I apologise for that.

However (there's always a however with moderating), from this point onward it would be nice to be nice. We have never claimed that anyone has free speech on RAWK; on the other hand, we don't wan to have to start depriving people of the right to post because of an outburst in this thread that we feel has over stepped the mark. Please refrain from ad hominem stuff, the descent into Godwinism, and if possible, maybe we could all stick to the argument about free speech and try to avoid stumbling down some of the arcane alleyways we have frequented over recent pages.

If we can hold our fingers over the keyboard for a brief moment while we think about what we are posting, things will progress in a more pleasant manner. Otherwise, we'll fuck you off RAWK for a few days. ;)
That's s very fair comment.

Thanks.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #747 on: January 27, 2015, 04:12:19 pm »
What about these guys? Entitled to free speech?



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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #748 on: January 27, 2015, 04:34:13 pm »
What about these guys? Entitled to free speech?




They are entitled to say those things. There method of saying them is liable to cause a breach of the peace, and thus is a convincing argument for curtailing their rights to protest in a manner designed to upset and inflame grieving families.

So in brief, yes, just a bit further away.


It is a classic case of having to balance different rights - common sense can usually be applied; but common sense is notoriously difficult to legislate.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #749 on: January 27, 2015, 04:39:23 pm »
It is a classic case of having to balance different rights - common sense can usually be applied; but common sense is notoriously difficult to legislate.

Not that common, either.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #750 on: January 28, 2015, 02:09:28 am »
About thirty years of age when your teeth fell out and they left you to starve...

Yeah but think of all the fresh air, exercise and adventures you would squeeze into those 30 years! If you subtract all the time wasted sitting in front of a computer or television, the average lifespan of a modern first-worlder is about 18 weeks. I say let's all bomb each other back to the Stone Age and learn to live again!

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #751 on: January 28, 2015, 02:44:10 am »
Yeah but think of all the fresh air, exercise and adventures you would squeeze into those 30 years! If you subtract all the time wasted sitting in front of a computer or television, the average lifespan of a modern first-worlder is about 18 weeks. I say let's all bomb each other back to the Stone Age and learn to live again!

We would still lose all our teeth at 30 in this modern day an age due to sugar consumption but for the wonder of dentists.  They reckon soft food consumption causes overbites too, which usually requires years of dental appointments to fix.   



Imagine going your whole life without a visit to the dentist!   

Your nearest and dearest would chew your brontosaurus steak for you and spit it in your mouth, unless you were a twat, then they'd leave you to die, much like kids today who think your a twat for pushing them into nursery, then school, then uni, then a job and sometimes marriage.

Early man/woman life is probably like life for people who've retired with a full state pension and spending money.  Wonder round aimlessly, eating, drinking, sleeping but without aching joints, memory loss, incontinence pants.
 

Offline Ken-Obi

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #752 on: January 28, 2015, 04:11:03 am »
What about these guys? Entitled to free speech?
He's just saying that God is against smoking.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #753 on: January 28, 2015, 07:57:23 am »
Interesting that Michelle Obama didn't wear a headscarf when she visited Saudi yesterday.

The local media blurred her face out as a result.

Who were they protecting doing that? I suspect they would claim that they were protecting her, but I suspect they were actually trying to stop local Saudi women from thinking it was acceptable.

This is the problem (for me) when you try to limit freedom of speech.  The limits are always used inappropriately.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #754 on: January 28, 2015, 09:33:30 am »
Cheers for the links KiNki. Interesting stuff. I hadn't heard of that before.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #755 on: January 28, 2015, 02:58:05 pm »
Well if you believe in God, our bodies come from God anyway so the argument is kinda redundant Al.

It is indeed. And yet another example of the tautological thinking which lies at the heart of all religious belief.

A biological urge to believe in the supernatural? God put it there.

Another Biblical claim trashed by science? God's testing us.


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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #756 on: January 29, 2015, 01:56:52 am »
Interesting that Michelle Obama didn't wear a headscarf when she visited Saudi yesterday.

The local media blurred her face out as a result.

Who were they protecting doing that? I suspect they would claim that they were protecting her, but I suspect they were actually trying to stop local Saudi women from thinking it was acceptable.

This is the problem (for me) when you try to limit freedom of speech.  The limits are always used inappropriately.

This is also why I applaud the French ban on the burka. It is enforced using doctrine as a reason across the middle east particularly in Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia has been exporting its Wahabi ideas to all parts of the Islamic world and similar ideas are picking up everywhere.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #757 on: January 29, 2015, 02:48:59 am »
This is also why I applaud the French ban on the burka. It is enforced using doctrine as a reason across the middle east particularly in Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia has been exporting its Wahabi ideas to all parts of the Islamic world and similar ideas are picking up everywhere.
Burqa is not a Wahabbi thing - it's uniform across all denominations of the religion.

Whether it's practiced or not - as I have always maintained in dialogue with my Muslim friends - is an entirely different matter altogether.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #758 on: January 29, 2015, 04:03:33 am »
Burqa is not a Wahabbi thing - it's uniform across all denominations of the religion.

Whether it's practiced or not - as I have always maintained in dialogue with my Muslim friends - is an entirely different matter altogether.

Yeah, I don't mean to say that it's only Wahabbism that recognises the Burqa. As I understand it, the Quran only says that women should dress modestly. It's more the Wahabbi strain of Islam that purports the idea that this mean women should cover themselves from head to toe. And that idea has been exported en masse to many other parts of the world. That's the problem with those that read religious doctrine puritanically.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #759 on: January 29, 2015, 06:37:17 am »
This is also why I applaud the French ban on the burka. It is enforced using doctrine as a reason across the middle east particularly in Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia has been exporting its Wahabi ideas to all parts of the Islamic world and similar ideas are picking up everywhere.
I find it rude, I find it excluding, but I find a ban on clothing a clear infringement on freedom of speech.

I know there are reasons why people feel it represses women, but banning a piece of clothing won't alter that.
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