Author Topic: Freedom of speech  (Read 87612 times)

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #440 on: January 17, 2015, 01:02:54 am »
If any belief or Religion is so fragile that a bit of lampooning is so harmful for it or the believer then its is not a worthy religion .

If Monty Python had done Life of Mustafa,  would there have been less of them in the O2 ?
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Offline kirkbywool

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #441 on: January 17, 2015, 02:45:48 am »
I may be won't wrong  but Islam ifis ' to be accepted' then it has to take the same
path as as all the religions. 

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #442 on: January 17, 2015, 11:32:28 am »
I do think you and L666KOP are debating a different topic to (most of) the rest of us. You're talking about what kind of speech is worthy of dissemination or that dignifies a response. We're talking about what kind of speech should be outlawed.

If I post something on this forum that is stupid, impulsive and serves only to wind people up, then the moderators will delete it and possibly warn me about future conduct or even ban, and that is their right as the custodians of this channel. But I would not face any legal consequences. These are two completely different considerations, and any reasonable society will be far more tolerant in the latter case.
Yes i am also talking about what type of speech people should be held accountable for in law, am not sure why you think i would believe you can restrict freedom of speech without laws.
Am sorry if i misunderstood your post but i thought the point you were making is if someone acts stupidly or impulsive then that should be taken into account and somehow this excuses them from prosecution.
I have never considered Mods deleting posts or banning members as a restriction on freedom of speech. we are all guests of whoever owns the forum, guests have to behave by rules and the values of the forum, just as we have to behave when we visit anyone's home. misbehave and your told to leave.
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Offline LondonRapLondon

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #443 on: January 17, 2015, 10:17:43 pm »
This link will offend Saudi Arabian princes and mullahs (hope that's ok).

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/postponement-raif-badawi-flogging-medical-grounds-exposes-shocking-brutalit

Raif's second round of flogging has been postponed because the wounds inflicted by the first round haven't properly healed yet.

Just a reminder that the man is being flogged 1000 times because he said something that the authorities didn't like.

Fucking savages.

Guess you think the French government are savages too because they trial a rapper who pisses them off over his lyrics about Napoleon.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #444 on: January 17, 2015, 10:19:57 pm »
Guess you think the French government are savages too because they trial a rapper who pisses them off over his lyrics about Napoleon.
Utter bollocks.

What the hell are you talking about?

Have you read this?

1000lashes for setting up a website?  They absolutely are savages for condoning this.

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Offline macca888

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #445 on: January 17, 2015, 10:42:41 pm »
Guess you think the French government are savages too because they trial a rapper who pisses them off over his lyrics about Napoleon.

You mean Monsieur R, the rapper who was charged with inciting racial hatred? I don't remember him being sentenced to 1,000 lashes, or even being found guilty.

Aside from that, charging someone with a possible crime which could potentially lead to a fine and/or a jail sentence, and whipping someone 1,000 times for blasphemy are exactly the same fucking thing.
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Offline LondonRapLondon

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #446 on: January 17, 2015, 11:15:29 pm »
You mean Monsieur R, the rapper who was charged with inciting racial hatred? I don't remember him being sentenced to 1,000 lashes, or even being found guilty.

Aside from that, charging someone with a possible crime which could potentially lead to a fine and/or a jail sentence, and whipping someone 1,000 times for blasphemy are exactly the same fucking thing.

No, not talking about him.

 I'm talking about the North African rapper see:

(Reuters) - A Moroccan rapper was charged on Friday with insulting public authorities in a song that was posted on YouTube

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/30/entertainment-us-morocco-rights-rapper-idUSBRE82T18G20120330


And chill out, your article as far as I can see didn't say 1000 lashes.

And on top of that, I'd rather be lashed rather than put in prison. Prison destroys your mind. It might sound easier but mentally it can fuck people up big time. Prison is a hard punishment, let's be clear about it. The punishment - not to mention the bullying and physical/sexual assaults one could suffer from inmates and screws.

I don;t know if you know if you have known anybody who has been to prison but ask them if you do know. There's a reason why there's so much recidivism after prison.


Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #447 on: January 17, 2015, 11:22:47 pm »
No, not talking about him.

 I'm talking about the North African rapper see:

(Reuters) - A Moroccan rapper was charged on Friday with insulting public authorities in a song that was posted on YouTube


Errr, but this poor bloke is being punished by the Moroccan government - not the French one.

 

And chill out, your article as far as I can see didn't say 1000 lashes.

Raif has been sentenced to 1000 lashes. But, sure, if it's only 900 I think we should "chill".
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Offline Card Cheat

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #448 on: January 17, 2015, 11:26:15 pm »
There's a reason why there's so much recidivism after prison.

It's the lack of lashes.

Offline macca888

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #449 on: January 17, 2015, 11:36:37 pm »
Guess you think the French government are savages too because they trial a rapper who pisses them off over his lyrics about Napoleon.

You mean Monsieur R, the rapper who was charged with inciting racial hatred?

No, not talking about him.

 I'm talking about the North African rapper see:

(Reuters) - A Moroccan rapper was charged on Friday with insulting public authorities in a song that was posted on YouTube

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/30/entertainment-us-morocco-rights-rapper-idUSBRE82T18G20120330


Well you learn something every day. I thought Morocco was a constitutional monarchy, not a suburb of France. Or are you saying that Napoleon is the Moroccan king? Or are you saying that France have an extradition treaty with Morocco whereby France are allowed to arrest and extradite Moroccan nationals to France for crimes committed under Moroccan law in Morocco? Or are... ah, fuck it.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #450 on: January 18, 2015, 12:28:12 am »
Really? Here too?

Offline thegoodfella

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #451 on: January 18, 2015, 12:33:55 am »
One man crusade of derailing of every thread I'm guessing? Or would using the word crusade get me in trouble with him? ;D

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #452 on: January 18, 2015, 03:23:57 am »
Surely this is just lazy journalism and this actually wont be the case.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11202290/Sharia-law-or-gay-marriage-critics-would-be-branded-extremists-under-Tory-plans-atheists-and-Christians-warn.html


Anyone who criticises Sharia law or gay marriage could be branded an “extremist” under sweeping new powers planned by the Conservatives to combat terrorism, an alliance of leading atheists and Christians fear.


Theresa May, the Home Secretary, unveiled plans last month for so-called Extremism Disruption Orders, which would allow judges to ban people deemed extremists from broadcasting, protesting in certain places or even posting messages on Facebook or Twitter without permission.


Mrs May outlined the proposal in a speech at the Tory party conference in which she spoke about the threat from the so-called Islamic State – also known as Isis and Isil – and the Nigerian Islamist movement Boko Haram.


But George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford, the Chancellor, has made clear in a letter to constituents that the aim of the orders would be to “eliminate extremism in all its forms” and that they would be used to curtail the activities of those who “spread hate but do not break laws”.


He explained that that the new orders, which will be in the Conservative election manifesto, would extend to any activities that “justify hatred” against people on the grounds of religion, sexual orientation, gender or disability.


He also disclosed that anyone seeking to challenge such an order would have to go the High Court, appealing on a point of law rather than fact.

The National Secular Society and the Christian institute – two organisations with often diametrically opposing interests – said they shared fears that the broad scope of extremism could represent a major threat to free speech.

Keith Porteous Wood, director of the NSS, said secularists might have to think twice before criticising Christianity or Islam. He said secularists risk being branded Islamophobic and racist because of their high profile campaigns against the advance of Sharia law in the UK.

“The Government should have every tool possible to tackle extremism and terrorism, but there is a huge arsenal of laws already in place and a much better case needs to be made for introducing draconian measures such as Extremism Disruption Orders, which are almost unchallengeable and deprive individuals of their liberties,” he said.

“Without precise legislative definitions, deciding what are ‘harmful activities of extremist individuals who spread hate’ is subjective and therefore open to abuse now or by any future authoritarian government.”

Simon Calvert, Deputy Director of the Christian Institute, said traditionalist evangelicals who criticise gay marriage or even argue that all religions are not the same could find themselves accused of extremism.

“Anyone who expresses an opinion that isn’t regarded as totally compliant with the Equality Act could find themselves ranked alongside Anjem Choudary, Islamic state or Boko Haram,” he said.

He added: “How many times a day do intellectually lazy political activists accuse their opponents of ‘spreading hatred’?

“The left does it, the right does it, liberals do it, conservatives do it, it is routine.

“Hand a judge a file of a thousand Twitter postings accusing this atheist or that evangelical of ‘spreading hatred’ and they could easily rule that an EDO is needed.

“It’s a crazy idea – the Conservatives need to drop this like a hot brick.”

A Conservative spokesman said: "Freedom of expression and freedom of speech are a vital part of a democratic society.

"In Government, Conservatives have always tried to strike the right balance on freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom to manifest one’s religion, and the need to protect the public. We have never sought to restrict peaceful protest or free speech, provided it is within the law.

"Our proposal to introduce Extremism Disruption Orders reflects the need to go further on challenging the threat from extremism and those who spread their hateful views so that we can keep that democratic society safe."



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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #453 on: January 18, 2015, 03:25:38 am »
Fucking terrible idea.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #454 on: January 18, 2015, 10:33:04 am »
A Conservative spokesman said: "Freedom of expression and freedom of speech are a vital part of a democratic society.

"In Government, Conservatives have always tried to strike the right balance on freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom to manifest one’s religion, and the need to protect the public. We have never sought to restrict peaceful protest or free speech, provided it is within the law.

I see what you did there mr spokesman.  ::)

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #455 on: January 18, 2015, 10:43:48 am »
People choose their religion and anyone should be allowed to take the piss out of peoples choices.

And anyway, assuming god exists, religion is just a "middle man" between yourself and god. A completely redundant position really.

They don't though do they.  The fact that they don't is one of Dawkins' key arguments.

The problem with Corky's infographic is that in reality all the lines on there are very blurred.

Criticising a religion in many cases carries with it an implied criticism of a race, the Charlie Hebdo front cover for example was a picture of an caricature Arab.

Similary the lines between criticism, promotion and incitement are equally blurred.  The Norwegian cartoon of Mohammed (caricature Arab) with a bomb in his stereotypical Arab headdress reinforces an idea that Muslims are terrorists.  Does that promote hatred of Muslims?  Probably. 
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Offline KiNki

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #456 on: January 18, 2015, 11:35:03 am »
I think the act of killing cartoonists, police officers, shoppers, a lot of people in Nigeria, beheadings of aid workers and journos, a soldier in Britain out for a stroll, 7/7 911 not to mention the treatment of women, gays causes more hatred of Muslims than any cartoon or white fascist could drum up. 

I think the inaction of protesting Muslim voices with each passing incident causes more fear or concern than anything.

This incident seems to set off a 'notinmyname' trend.  Hurrah, progress. Perhaps muslims in the west genuinely think this isn't what the religion of peace is about or maybe cause they fear reprisal cos they are a minority, maybe they fear reprisal if they ever became a majority.  As Sunni and shite Muslims have been killing each other for eons.

It's their religion and it's their name being dragged through the mud.  They need to find a voice and criticise and yeah satirise the absurdity, contradictions and idiocy of their religion.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #457 on: January 18, 2015, 11:45:26 am »
There are elements of the above that are true, you're sharing an uncomfortably close position with Rupert Murdoch though.

None of that changes anything about my post though.  Action X promotes more hatred than my action Y is not a defence.
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Offline KiNki

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #458 on: January 18, 2015, 11:59:11 am »
It's a position shared with salmon Rushdie and bill maher so I'm comfortable with having the opinion that the fundies killing people people, randomly in most cases, causes more hatred than any scribble.  The Muslim police officer drew no cartoon, the people shopping, the village of boko harem, aid workers, gays, women...yet there they are, muredered, killed, six feet under.

There is an argument that fundi christian people politics and selling arms to these fuckwits helped start a chain reaction that non of us can see an end to....well unless the moderate, liberal, cartoonists force these collective fuckwits to rethink their position and politics.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #459 on: January 18, 2015, 12:04:03 pm »
It's a position shared with salmon Rushdie and bill maher so I'm comfortable with having the opinion that the fundies killing people people, randomly in most cases, causes more hatred than any scribble.  The Muslim police officer drew no cartoon, the people shopping, the village of boko harem, aid workers, gays, women...yet there they are, muredered, killed, six feet under.

Nobody is questioning that bit, it is the idea that I should be responsible for somebody's actions simply because they share the same religion that is more questionable.
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Offline KiNki

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #460 on: January 18, 2015, 12:10:04 pm »
We are all responsible for each other.   Who else is gonna take responsibility?

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #461 on: January 18, 2015, 12:12:43 pm »

"Our proposal to introduce Extremism Disruption Orders reflects the need to go further on challenging the threat from extremism and those who spread their hateful views so that we can keep that democratic society safe."

Extremism is undefinable in my opinion. So it will be whatever the government decides is "extremism" and may well include political views that they don't like/go against their views.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #462 on: January 18, 2015, 12:12:49 pm »
They don't though do they.  The fact that they don't is one of Dawkins' key arguments.

The problem with Corky's infographic is that in reality all the lines on there are very blurred.

Criticising a religion in many cases carries with it an implied criticism of a race, the Charlie Hebdo front cover for example was a picture of an caricature Arab.

Similary the lines between criticism, promotion and incitement are equally blurred.  The Norwegian cartoon of Mohammed (caricature Arab) with a bomb in his stereotypical Arab headdress reinforces an idea that Muslims are terrorists.  Does that promote hatred of Muslims?  Probably. 
Stereotypes of Arabs 1400 years ago are surely nor racist?
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #463 on: January 18, 2015, 12:23:25 pm »

Criticising a religion in many cases carries with it an implied criticism of a race, the Charlie Hebdo front cover for example was a picture of an caricature Arab.


That's a dreadful thing to say Kev. Not only is it wrong (Charlie Hebdo was militantly anti-racist, anti-NF and pro-immigration) but it seems to imply - in the true sense of the word - that the dead cartoonists were racists. Indeed racists who didn't have the courage of their convictions and hid their racism behind cartoons ostensibly aimed at the Prophet Mohammed. 

You also seem to be saying that it is impossible to satirise the religion of anyone who isn't white. 
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #464 on: January 18, 2015, 01:03:55 pm »
I'm not saying either of those things Yorky nor casting doubt on the motives of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists I just think that when you are talking about religions that are closely bound with communities then it is very difficult to ensure that a criticism of one does not imply a criticism of the other.

Also don't assume that I am saying we should not satirise, I am just saying that the issue is far more nuanced and difficult than most posters would have us believe.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #465 on: January 18, 2015, 01:09:28 pm »
What bit is difficult?

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #466 on: January 18, 2015, 02:01:02 pm »
I'm not saying either of those things Yorky nor casting doubt on the motives of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists I just think that when you are talking about religions that are closely bound with communities then it is very difficult to ensure that a criticism of one does not imply a criticism of the other.

I'm glad to hear it. Perhaps you meant some people "inferred" that the cartoons were racist, not that the cartoonists wanted their pictures to "imply" racism?  If so then I think that's true, although clearly it was a mistaken inference. And there's not a lot you can do about that. People often leap to wrong conclusions - even when the message is crystal clear to everyone else. It would be insane if satire had to be tailored to meet the possible misconceptions of sections of the public.

I'm very glad that Charlie Hebdo wasn't intimidated by other people's possible confusion. For two basic reasons 1) It's easy to prove that they aren't racist 2) Their target - Islamic fundamentalism - is utterly worthy of being satirised and ridiculed. I'd feel the same about any British satirist that ridiculed the ideas of the English Defence League by drawing a picture of an overweight prole, with a can of beer and a St George's Flag. There's three communities who might get offended by the way. The working class, the ale drinkers and the patriots. Three communities, as it happens, I personally admire and support (especially the ale drinkers). Even so, long live the satirist.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 02:03:05 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #467 on: January 18, 2015, 02:22:21 pm »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #468 on: January 18, 2015, 02:33:27 pm »
Je suis Alan_X
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #469 on: January 18, 2015, 02:43:59 pm »
;D

Actually - I find the above smiley to be offensive. It's clearly an American imperialist smiley with it's yellow cartoon colouring and orthodontically correct teeth. *Death to America!

(*note to the NSA - if your reading this this it's satire)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 02:45:57 pm by Alan_X »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #470 on: January 18, 2015, 02:54:34 pm »
Spineless reaction for Sky News when a contributor to Charlie Hebdo holds up the front cover of Charlie Hebdo.

 http://order-order.com/2015/01/14/sky-news-stop-charlie-hebdo-cartoonist-showing-mohammed/

A cut away and an immediate apology! Neville Chamberlain lives on.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #471 on: January 18, 2015, 03:01:45 pm »
Spineless reaction for Sky News when a contributor to Charlie Hebdo holds up the front cover of Charlie Hebdo.

 http://order-order.com/2015/01/14/sky-news-stop-charlie-hebdo-cartoonist-showing-mohammed/

A cut away and an immediate apology! Neville Chamberlain lives on.

Don't show it if that's your policy but apologise?  Really?
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline JLStretton

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #472 on: January 18, 2015, 04:15:02 pm »
wow, what a spineless act.
choose Life.

Offline KiNki

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #473 on: January 18, 2015, 07:15:07 pm »
wow, what a spineless act.

Well that's the media for ya



Who among us is brave enough to call it out.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #474 on: January 18, 2015, 10:49:08 pm »
Yeah ants - spineless little bastards.
NAKED BOOBERY

Rile-Me costed L. Nee-Naw "The Child" Torrence the first jack the hat-trick since Eon Rush vs Accursed Toffos, many moons passed. Nee-Naw he could have done a concreted his palace in the pantyhose off the LibPole Gods...was not was for the invented intervention of Rile-Me whistler.

Offline KiNki

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #475 on: January 19, 2015, 01:36:29 am »
Careful now, you'll be accused of Myrmecophobia, with that kind of shit. Dont you know myrmecophiles are the fastest growing religion in the world..after that other one...and frankly there's more of them than us...so I wouldn't wanna call them out, they gang up and can give a nasty bite so I wouldn't piss them off. 

Hail ants. 

Especially the flying ones and the queen who shall not ever be accused of having a fat arse.

Offline SP

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #476 on: January 19, 2015, 10:19:06 am »
Fear the ants:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/it0V7xv9qu0?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/it0V7xv9qu0?fs=1</a>

Online TepidT2O

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #477 on: January 19, 2015, 02:14:54 pm »
You know that you can tell the difference between a male and female any by putting them in water and seeing if the sink/float.   

A male ant is buoyant.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 02:24:47 pm by Tepid water »
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline MichaelA

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #478 on: January 19, 2015, 03:36:25 pm »
You know that you can tell the difference between a male and female any by putting them in water and seeing if the sink/float.   

A male ant is buoyant.

My new favourite joke. Thanks ;D :wave

Online TepidT2O

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #479 on: January 19, 2015, 03:42:18 pm »
A pleasure :)
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W