Topic: Man Utd vs Liverpool-In Game Commentary & Post game shite...

[Bulldog Drummond]

What's happening on the pitch is simply a symptom of the chaos off it and there are still far too many people who just don't realise that LFC might become obsolete if Hicks gets his way. We're staring at the same abyss that Leeds Utd did.

[El Campeador]

And the 'time pressures' and 'momentum' make up for the fact you're comparing teams like Tottenham and Aston Villa to Arsenal and the Mancs? Can't agree with that, sorry.

And if you're taking into account 'momentum', you need to adjust for the momentum we had from finishing 2nd versus finishing 7th. Or does that not fit the conclusion that's been predetermined?

I didn't knock you method of comparing results. I did say it was indeed one legitimate way of looking at it.

By the same token, you have to admit is something to be said about getting (or not) into a groove early, and riding the wave of fixtures so that you don't constantly feel like you're playing shortstacked.

To your point about comparing Arsenal and United to Spurs and Villa - why not? They all ended up above us last season. I don't think we can be snobby in thinking that while we might lose to United, we'll certainly beat Spurs and Villa, and in any case, we split the 6 points on offer last season to Villa, Spurs, and United didn't we? Won one, lost one. Plus we drew twice against City. So we'll have to beat them once and not lose to them in the reverse fixture to improve on your comparison.

As to your last point about ending up second - the summer following the runner-up season was the most deflating summer ever for the players. Pre-season was shit, and our results out the gates were crap. Immediate pressure.

To illustrate my point, here is an excerpt from a random match report for our 3rd match which was a 3-1 home loss versus Villa.

Liverpool slumped to their second Premier League defeat in nine days as they lost 3-1 to Aston Villa to put their title credentials firmly on the line.

Villa produced a defiant, organised display and deserved their first win at Anfield since 2001.

The result also ended Liverpool's 31-match unbeaten home league record stretching back to December 2007, when Manchester United were the last winners at Anfield.

But the spotlight will now be on Liverpool, who only lost twice in the league last season and still did not win the title.

The margin for error is now very fine. You rarely win the crown by losing more than five games in a season, and Liverpool's hopes could already have suffered a mortal blow.

See what I mean? 3 games in mate, and the knives were out. The momentum you speak of coming second was but an anchor tied around our neck.

[BazC]

IN 'our' defence - and I think I speak for quite a few Rafa fans here - on a pure 'enjoyment of football' level, I preferred Rafa's teams to Roy's, even in defeat. I never, or at least, hardly ever, came away from Rafa games feeling like we're going to deeply struggle even before the teams are named - under Roy I called what would happen against Brum, which totally reinforced my thought that we'd get done against Utd today, and we've been done in exactly the way I predicted both times (IE, screwed from crosses because both teams love to cross it and we're set up in a way that gives teams freedom to cross it in).

If you were a fan of Rafas, and not someone inclined to support the manager just because he is the manager, and you therefore really liked Rafa's tactical approach (again, not saying it's the be all and end all), it seems totally consistent to me to have issues, and big ones, with Roy's approach.

To be extra fair a lot of the sound posters who aren't giving Roy much time or patience pretty much called exactly this kind of football if he were to be appointed. I don't see why someone who supported the last manager, didn't rate Roy, didn't want him here, expected the dross football and hence results we've had so far, should ignore those (seemingly) well founded and accurate doubts and criticisms when the results haven't even been anything to write home about.

Unless you're a fan of Roy in particular, or his style of play as you've seen it unfold thus far, the only compelling reason to give him huge support is because that's how things are done, that's the 'Liverpool Way' - but again, it gets a LOT harder to believe in that when the new manager is self evidently the appointee of a board who couldn't give two fucks about the Liverpool Way, and wouldn't give a fuck even if it were expained to them in the most eloquent means possible.

I'm not saying it's right to 'lambast' Roy, and after my initial doubts I'd like to think I'm at least trying (though not necessarily succeeding) to be as positive as I can while still being honest and realistic, but it doesn't seem to me to be a hard thing to understand - it makes complete sense, rightly or wrongly.

Firstly, I was a fan of Rafa's. I support Roy because he's our manager, but I have to admit, my heart sank when he came into the frame let alone took the helms. It's moot now though, because he should be supported for managing our team. Rafa doesn't anymore.

The reason I'm coming across as 'anti-Rafa' (and I'm sure you'll know from the Level 3 days, that I was critical at times, but still a big fan of what he was doing) is because I'm sticking up for Roy. I do think Rafa made mistakes last season, but then also think he had fuck all support from the players and board.

What I don't get now, is why it's turned into a Rafa (not our manager any longer) v. Roy debate, despite both of them having shite times of it in the last year.

[Dr Manhattan]

All you Rafa lamenters need to get over it, because it he isn't coming back. If I was you, I'd go up stairs take one last look at you Rafa wallpaper, climb underneath your Rafa quilt, switch off the lamp underneath your Rafa lampshade and sob your little hearts out to sleep on your Rafa pillow cover. Then when you wake up, RIP it all out and then come back and be objective about Hodgson, not comparative.

Right mate, done that. It was only a quick nap, but when you've got the lovely big face of Rafa Benitez grinning at you from the bedside lampshade it's hard to sleep with an erection.

So, here I am to be objective...

He's a lovely lovely old man, but he's clearly pretty shite.

There. I did it.

[Gnurglan]

Because he has to drum into your head... WE ARE ON A LEVEL PAR WITH THESE TEAMS NOW...WE ARE NOT A TOP 4 TEAM ANYMORE. REALITY! That is what we have become. It doesnt mean we should slag off the Manager after 5 games does it!?

How come we are not a top four team anymore?

[minusone]

Right mate, done that. It was only a quick nap, but when you've got the lovely big face of Rafa Benitez grinning at you from the bedside lampshade it's hard to sleep with an erection.

Hard not to get a stiffy looking at an LFC manager holding aloft a European Cup...

[Finn Solomon]

Oh, many are.

Then their opinions are not worth reading. HBHR has done a masterful job of a balanced summary of the game. It still doesn't take away the fact that Hodgson was outclassed in this occasion, just as he was against Birmingham.

[Fitzy.]

be objective about Hodgson, not comparative.

Like that.

It's very difficult to not mention Rafa. It's human nature, especially given the affection most reds have for him. But it is only fair to Roy that people stand back and see what his team becomes.

[Skuzzlebutt]

Right mate, done that. It was only a quick nap, but when you've got the lovely big face of Rafa Benitez grinning at you from the bedside lampshade it's hard to sleep with an erection.

So, here I am to be objective...

He's a lovely lovely old man, but he's clearly pretty shite.

There. I did it.

I just changed my Rafa bed spread to a Dr Manhattan one.  Does that class as moving on?  Or do I have to burn anything with Rafa on it?

I wouldn't want to disappoint the Hodgson Army.

[El Campeador]

IN 'our' defence - and I think I speak for quite a few Rafa fans here - on a pure 'enjoyment of football' level, I preferred Rafa's teams to Roy's, even in defeat. I never, or at least, hardly ever, came away from Rafa games feeling like we're going to deeply struggle even before the teams are named - under Roy I called what would happen against Brum, which totally reinforced my thought that we'd get done against Utd today, and we've been done in exactly the way I predicted both times (IE, screwed from crosses because both teams love to cross it and we're set up in a way that gives teams freedom to cross it in).

If you were a fan of Rafas, and not someone inclined to support the manager just because he is the manager, and you therefore really liked Rafa's tactical approach (again, not saying it's the be all and end all), it seems totally consistent to me to have issues, and big ones, with Roy's approach.

To be extra fair a lot of the sound posters who aren't giving Roy much time or patience pretty much called exactly this kind of football if he were to be appointed. I don't see why someone who supported the last manager, didn't rate Roy, didn't want him here, expected the dross football and hence results we've had so far, should ignore those (seemingly) well founded and accurate doubts and criticisms when the results haven't even been anything to write home about.

Unless you're a fan of Roy in particular, or his style of play as you've seen it unfold thus far, the only compelling reason to give him huge support is because that's how things are done, that's the 'Liverpool Way' - but again, it gets a LOT harder to believe in that when the new manager is self evidently the appointee of a board who couldn't give two fucks about the Liverpool Way, and wouldn't give a fuck even if it were expained to them in the most eloquent means possible.

I'm not saying it's right to 'lambast' Roy, and after my initial doubts I'd like to think I'm at least trying (though not necessarily succeeding) to be as positive as I can while still being honest and realistic, but it doesn't seem to me to be a hard thing to understand - it makes complete sense, rightly or wrongly.

EDIT:

If there's a group who doesn't make sense to me it's the shills who lambasted Rafa for his 'negative' tactics and 'stubborness' who, thus far, are very loudly supporting Roy and urging us all to remember the 'Liverpool Way', which they felt no need to apply to Rafa whatsoever.

I get where they were coming from with Rafa, what I don't get is why they like Roy so much thus far - though I expect that'll be changing hugely if we don't get much better results very soon.

Fucking hell that's a brilliant post.

[Fine Shagger, Danny Agger]

It was Berbatov's game to win today, but without him, we could have pipped it.

[BazC]

All you Rafa lamenters need to get over it, because it he isn't coming back. If I was you, I'd go up stairs take one last look at you Rafa wallpaper, climb underneath your Rafa quilt, switch off the lamp underneath your Rafa lampshade and sob your little hearts out to sleep on your Rafa pillow cover. Then when you wake up, RIP it all out and then come back and be objective about Hodgson, not comparative.

As for the game, nothing new that I  haven't seen already in the last 30 years. We pass the ball well but we didn't seem to get anywhere with it. We lacked width, but then, we've lacked width for years. Perplexed by Roy's left side sub but in the same respect it was good to see us going to 2 up front when we concede the second. On the whole a smattering of good play, with some really worrying moments, those being the allowance of both full backs to allow crosses to come in the box and I won't even mention the basic error of allowing them to turn and make the cross in the first place.

Player wise, The high for me was Raul, the low was both full-backs.
Tactic wise, Roy needs to get his team playing for the full 90, and not for just the last 45.

Thanks for that- you've summed up my all my frustrations and posts since the match more concisely (and with less arguments!) than I have.

[hesbighesred]

It seems that a big focus in training is ball retention. We're doing a lot of ball-keeping, passing it around, midfield to the back and square and forward and square and back again... While possession is key, we're simply not showing the intent to get the ball forward with the urgency that is required to score against any well-drilled side.

Again, look at Fulham last season, it's exactly how they played. Most of the urgency they showed either came via Duff and Davies (I don't get why Roy doesn't use Babel and Jova on the left and right respectively, their pace and directess would, I think, make a big difference and really help in supporting Torres), but in particular it came via quick ball to Zamora. It should be a source of shame to Nando thus far that Zamora did that job far, far, far better than Torres has...IE holding it up, waiting for support, laying it off with a bit of intelligence.

Attribute wise, even in the areas where Zamora is strong, Torres is actually at least as good, if not better (even though Torres may be at his best in other areas) - Injury aside, and that's worn very thin now, there is no excuse for Torres to have been as poor as he has been. Note how many Ngog's scored and how much better he holds it up - and again, other than an inch or two in height Ngog's strongest attributes aren't any better than Torres in those areas (or at least how Torres could be if he put his mind to it and sacrificed himself to the team more) - unless of course Torres is actually following Roy's instructions, but that doesn't really make sense to me. Torres seems to be trying to play the same as he did under Rafa, it would be mad of Roy, I think, to try that type of striker in a Fulham-style approach. Ngog's hold up play has, IMO, made a huge difference whenever he's played.

[East of Anfield]

Seeing our players passing the ball sideways and backways so many times makes me so fustrated,got a feeling hodgson came into this game just wanting a draw,oh and nani deserves an oscar.

[Skuzzlebutt]

How come we are not a top four team anymore?

 

[PJLFC1]

So was Dirk

So was Rafa so i have heard a million times this season already !

[silver 5 star]

Tactic wise, Roy needs to get his team playing for the full 90, and not for just the last 45.



As football games last for 90 minutes you may have put the finger on the major flaw in Roy's battle plan...

[Ambrosia]

How come we are not a top four team anymore?

Exactly. Fuckin scary the way some fans are so eager to accept that we're shit, when that isn't the case at all.

[rednich85]

It was Berbatov's game to win today, but without him, we could have pipped it.

If my granny had balls she'd be my grandad

[Chakan]

So was Rafa so i have heard a million times this season already !

What has that got to do with my post?

[Finn Solomon]

IN 'our' defence - and I think I speak for quite a few Rafa fans here - on a pure 'enjoyment of football' level, I preferred Rafa's teams to Roy's, even in defeat. I never, or at least, hardly ever, came away from Rafa games feeling like we're going to deeply struggle even before the teams are named - under Roy I called what would happen against Brum, which totally reinforced my thought that we'd get done against Utd today, and we've been done in exactly the way I predicted both times (IE, screwed from crosses because both teams love to cross it and we're set up in a way that gives teams freedom to cross it in).

If you were a fan of Rafas, and not someone inclined to support the manager just because he is the manager, and you therefore really liked Rafa's tactical approach (again, not saying it's the be all and end all), it seems totally consistent to me to have issues, and big ones, with Roy's approach.

To be extra fair a lot of the sound posters who aren't giving Roy much time or patience pretty much called exactly this kind of football if he were to be appointed. I don't see why someone who supported the last manager, didn't rate Roy, didn't want him here, expected the dross football and hence results we've had so far, should ignore those (seemingly) well founded and accurate doubts and criticisms when the results haven't even been anything to write home about.

Unless you're a fan of Roy in particular, or his style of play as you've seen it unfold thus far, the only compelling reason to give him huge support is because that's how things are done, that's the 'Liverpool Way' - but again, it gets a LOT harder to believe in that when the new manager is self evidently the appointee of a board who couldn't give two fucks about the Liverpool Way, and wouldn't give a fuck even if it were expained to them in the most eloquent means possible.

I'm not saying it's right to 'lambast' Roy, and after my initial doubts I'd like to think I'm at least trying (though not necessarily succeeding) to be as positive as I can while still being honest and realistic, but it doesn't seem to me to be a hard thing to understand - it makes complete sense, rightly or wrongly.

EDIT:

If there's a group who doesn't make sense to me it's the shills who lambasted Rafa for his 'negative' tactics and 'stubborness' who, thus far, are very loudly supporting Roy and urging us all to remember the 'Liverpool Way', which they felt no need to apply to Rafa whatsoever.

I get where they were coming from with Rafa, what I don't get is why they like Roy so much thus far - though I expect that'll be changing hugely if we don't get much better results very soon.

HBHR, you are the fucking king of RAWK. Take a bow, mate.

[Crank]

I just changed my Rafa bed spread to a Dr Manhattan one.  Does that class as moving on?  Or do I have to burn anything with Rafa on it?

I wouldn't want to disappoint the Hodgson Army.

If Hicks's plan was divide and conquer then he's fucking succeeded, hasn't he?

When will some of you get it: it's not about being pro-Rafa or anti-Rafa, pro-Hodgson or anti-Hodgson, it's about being pro-LFC and supporting the fucking team. 

[hesbighesred]

Thanks for that- you've summed up my all my frustrations and posts since the match more concisely (and with less arguments!) than I have.

Really?

I mean, the sentiments fair enough but I really don't get this trend to suggest that Roy's methods are just a continuation of Rafa's. They may both be 'failing' thus far, away from home, but the methods are miles apart.

[yusendo]

He's right lads.

Keep paying your money to the club, buy a pie and tea at least once per half and make sure you pick up a jester hat on the way home from the club store. Only by feeding the yanks more money will we ever turn the corner and come out the other side with a new stadium, #19 and 72 virgins each.


Insh'Hicksallah

wow, im a muslim. and i dont like what you're saying. careful with the words.

[BazC]

I didn't knock you method of comparing results. I did say it was indeed one legitimate way of looking at it.

By the same token, you have to admit is something to be said about getting (or not) into a groove early, and riding the wave of fixtures so that you don't constantly feel like you're playing shortstacked.

To your point about comparing Arsenal and United to Spurs and Villa - why not? They all ended up above us last season. I don't think we can be snobby in thinking that while we might lose to United, we'll certainly beat Spurs and Villa, and in any case, we split the 6 points on offer last season to Villa, Spurs, and United didn't we? Won one, lost one. Plus we drew twice against City. So we'll have to beat them once and not lose to them in the reverse fixture to improve on your comparison.

As to your last point about ending up second - the summer following the runner-up season was the most deflating summer ever for the players. Pre-season was shit, and our results out the gates were crap. Immediate pressure.

To illustrate my point, here is an excerpt from a random match report for our 3rd match which was a 3-1 home loss versus Villa.

See what I mean? 3 games in mate, and the knives were out. The momentum you speak of coming second was but an anchor tied around our neck.

Fair points- but still, I wouldn't compare Villa and Spurs to Arsenal and Man Utd in a month of Sundays. They finished ahead of us, but that doesn't mean anything, because Arsenal and Man Utd will, and always will be, harder matches to win than Villa at home and Spurs away (not to say they're easy by any stretch).

Anyway, do we really need to get into a debate on statistical analysis ?!

[richmiller1]

Typical LFC at Old Trafford performance really.

The backline is a big big concern, fullbacks who concede plenty of crosses combined with centre backs who have just lost all aerial presence is going to leave us shaky for the forseeable future.

On the plus side we didn't go to pieces when they got the second which we've seen happenbefore in those sort of situations, and the season gets a hell of a lot easier from this point in.

High time we got our act together.

[silver 5 star]

I just changed my Rafa bed spread to a Dr Manhattan one.  Does that class as moving on?  Or do I have to burn anything with Rafa on it?

I wouldn't want to disappoint the Hodgson Army.

I'm going to buy a Hodgson wig.

[Finn Solomon]

wow, im a muslim. and i dont like what you're saying. careful with the words.

I'm a Muslim and I couldn't give a fuck. They're just words, and the more you're offended the more people will try to offend you. Get over yourself.

[Hazell]

If my granny had balls she'd be my grandad

She'd need a cock to go with them though.

[Fitzy.]

He's a lovely lovely old man, but he's clearly pretty shite.

Classless that.

Your well articulated adulation for Rafa shows you to be a smart and insightful fan. However, you undermine these well thought-out sentiments with this kind of exaggeration. Furthermore, whether you like or not, you and others are creating and recruiting a band of fans to adhere to your incredibly unhelpful and spiteful comments. This is ultimately unproductive and it will split the fanbase at a time when the opposite is necessary.

[minusone]

wow, im a muslim. and i dont like what you're saying. careful with the words.

Well i'm sorry you're so fucking sensitive about it. If you can't take something with a pinch of salt then i'm sorry to say it, the internet is the fucking wrong place for you lad.

[BazC]

Really?

I mean, the sentiments fair enough but I really don't get this trend to suggest that Roy's methods are just a continuation of Rafa's. They may both be 'failing' thus far, away from home, but the methods are miles apart.

I don't think the methods are a continuation (like I said earlier), but the results might be. We kept possession well (in fact, in the Lucas thread we had a debate abuot the 60% possession- we had 60% of it in the first half I believe- according to Actim anyway), but did fuck all in the final 3rd.

It is the results which are more important, surely. And I've merely pointed out that they're pretty similar to what we've seen from Rafa before as well. The methodology matters little- like I said, it doesn't matter if Rafa had his widemen pushing fullbacks back into defending over Roy's widemen playing more like quasi-CMs- if they lose, they lose.

[Skuzzlebutt]

Classless that.

Your well articulated adulation for Rafa shows you to be a smart and insightful fan. However, you undermine these well thought-out sentiments with this kind of exaggeration. Furthermore, whether you like or not, you and others are creating and recruiting a band of fans to adhere to your incredibly unhelpful and spiteful comments. This is ultimately unproductive and it will split the fanbase at a time when the opposite is necessary.

Wah meester, yoo use yur tongue purdier than a $20 whore.

[andy in warrington]

If our first 5 fixtures were WBA h. Wigan a. Stoke h. West Ham a. Blackpool h. would we have 15 points just like Chelsea ? We have suffered from having an opening fixture list from hell.

[jaffod]

EDIT:

If there's a group who doesn't make sense to me it's the shills who lambasted Rafa for his 'negative' tactics and 'stubborness' who, thus far, are very loudly supporting Roy and urging us all to remember the 'Liverpool Way', which they felt no need to apply to Rafa whatsoever.

That reminds me, what's happened to The Divine Ponytail?

[Karlton81]

what gets me more than anything is, we have played Arsenal, City and Utd with a new team and new manager, but yet Chelsea have pretty much a pre season run of fixtures at the start of the season to gain their momentum, why didn't the FA just hand the league to Chelsea and save us all the bother?

[jaffod]

If our first 5 fixtures were WBA h. Wigan a. Stoke h. West Ham a. Blackpool h. would we have 15 points just like Chelsea ? We have suffered from having an opening fixture list from hell.

I very much doubt it.

[rowan_d]

If our first 5 fixtures were WBA h. Wigan a. Stoke h. West Ham a. Blackpool h. would we have 15 points just like Chelsea ? We have suffered from having an opening fixture list from hell.

We'd have 11 I imagine

[LiverLuke]

don't forget we have had a VERY tough opening set of fixtures.

[hesbighesred]

Firstly, I was a fan of Rafa's. I support Roy because he's our manager, but I have to admit, my heart sank when he came into the frame let alone took the helms. It's moot now though, because he should be supported for managing our team. Rafa doesn't anymore.

The reason I'm coming across as 'anti-Rafa' (and I'm sure you'll know from the Level 3 days, that I was critical at times, but still a big fan of what he was doing) is because I'm sticking up for Roy. I do think Rafa made mistakes last season, but then also think he had fuck all support from the players and board.

What I don't get now, is why it's turned into a Rafa (not our manager any longer) v. Roy debate, despite both of them having shite times of it in the last year.

I know all that Baz - I'm not having any type of go at you and I understand your position. I'm honestly curious (see above) as to whether you think their approaches are the same though - but that's a different issue.

But your reply there is your answer to my answer to your post - you were saying you 'can't understand' a certain viewpoint - I was just trying to explain it, because it (again, rightly or wrongly) makes total and complete sense to me.

As does yours - I've absolutely no issue whatsoever with people supporting Roy, or urging people to support him - unless they're the same people who apparently forgot the 'Liverpool Way' when Rafa was here.

As I say, I am honestly trying to support Roy myself - but (to me anyway) it's meaningless if I'm not also trying to be honest about what I see on the pitch, and what I can see happening. To take an example, I can see Roy improving results -- can't really see him changing his methods.