Author Topic: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'  (Read 33481 times)

Offline Tobelius

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #760 on: August 8, 2022, 03:30:56 pm »
I値l be honest, reading some of the ridiculously negative posts on here left me more disappointed than the result.  It痴 game 1 of a 38 game season.  They値l be slip ups, poor performances, bad refereeing decisions (aplenty), and bits of bad luck in every season. If you are going to get this freaked out and upset about a draw away from home where we came from behind twice and had to deal with a ridiculously soft penalty then this season is going to be very bad for your mental health.

For me the penalty changed everything, and I知 surprised that more people on here weren稚 more mad about that decision than the overall performance.  After we scored it felt like there was only going to be one winner until the penalty, and I知 very confident we would have taken the 3 points without it.

But once again I guess I知 going to have to make peace with the reality that if we finish the season on 90+ points yet again and finish 1 or 2 points behind City people will moan and complain about this result being the cause and what we should have done differently to address that.

EVERY team in PL history has dropped at least 14 points.  This was just 2 of those, so onwards and upwards.

Spot on!  :thumbup

It was disappointing but some behave like emo kids on suicide watch after a draw.

Online StL-Dono

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #761 on: August 8, 2022, 03:33:32 pm »
I think the difference is nothing more than this:

City play to control the game, like a bunch of mechanical parts, automatons, moving the ball about and retaining it using safe passes and minutely micromanaged patterns and positions. We, on the other hand, play more on the edge, taking risks, mixing styles and deliberately forcing opposition errors.

When it works our style can be breathtaking and beautiful and infinitely satisfying, whereas City's remains dull and mechanistic all the time. But when it doesn't work we are at greater risk of playing into trouble, and into the opposition's hands, whereas City are still there plodding away in the same automaton like way, a physical realisation of the conceptual clockwork taking place in their manager's head.

The way to get to City is to prevent their clockwork from being set into gear from the start. But that takes a lot of effort from lesser teams, and it's not that teams don't try, it's that their efforts, which are taking place, can be masked by the plod, plod, plod of the clockwork.

The way to 'get' at us is easier, because we play on the edge and concentrating their efforts upon one area can sometimes visibly overload us, though the concomitant risks are also greater for the opposition.

And that's why it sometimes seems like the oppos try harder against us than against CIty.

I believe this is exactly it.  When they are maintaining possession for 75% of matches, it seems like the other teams aren't trying.  But, that is their game and they're trained in it and they have the skilled players to implement it.  Our approach does tend to encourage teams to have a go because we do take more risks.  High risk, high reward seems a pretty accurate cliche for our style. 

The matches where MCFC struggle is when one of those "smaller" teams can actually get an early goal (Match 38 last season not withstanding.. .:( )  and that tends to take them out of their monotonous rhythm.  The additional problem is, when they do concede first, they also have enough individual skill that it's not unlikely they'll still be able to find equalizers and/or winners.   

For what it's worth, I'd 100x much rather watch our approach to the game than theirs and I'm guessing the vast majority here would say the same. 

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #762 on: August 8, 2022, 03:42:11 pm »
I believe this is exactly it.  When they are maintaining possession for 75% of matches, it seems like the other teams aren't trying.  But, that is their game and they're trained in it and they have the skilled players to implement it.  Our approach does tend to encourage teams to have a go because we do take more risks.  High risk, high reward seems a pretty accurate cliche for our style. 

The matches where MCFC struggle is when one of those "smaller" teams can actually get an early goal (Match 38 last season not withstanding.. .:( )  and that tends to take them out of their monotonous rhythm.  The additional problem is, when they do concede first, they also have enough individual skill that it's not unlikely they'll still be able to find equalizers and/or winners.   

For what it's worth, I'd 100x much rather watch our approach to the game than theirs and I'm guessing the vast majority here would say the same.

Some rose tinted glasses here. If anything, I'd say our team is more mechanical, hence the preference for players like Gini and Hendo in midfield over the years compared to debruyne Silva et all.

City regularly outscore us, score goals that are easier on the eye and are regularly winning the league.

Now before there's shouts for me to start supporting city, I'm only trying to take an objective view of how each team normally plays.
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #763 on: August 8, 2022, 03:49:38 pm »
I believe this is exactly it.  When they are maintaining possession for 75% of matches, it seems like the other teams aren't trying.  But, that is their game and they're trained in it and they have the skilled players to implement it.  Our approach does tend to encourage teams to have a go because we do take more risks.  High risk, high reward seems a pretty accurate cliche for our style. 

The matches where MCFC struggle is when one of those "smaller" teams can actually get an early goal (Match 38 last season not withstanding.. .:( )  and that tends to take them out of their monotonous rhythm.  The additional problem is, when they do concede first, they also have enough individual skill that it's not unlikely they'll still be able to find equalizers and/or winners.   

For what it's worth, I'd 100x much rather watch our approach to the game than theirs and I'm guessing the vast majority here would say the same.
It's also worth pointing out that whilst it may have appeared that West Ham didn't try and Man City were an imperious 100-point team, Man City only had two shots on target.  West Ham successfully subdued Man City until the misjudgement by Areola and the second goal was what can happen when you momentarily give too much freedom to de Bruyne.  At 2-0 neither side wanted to do any more and the game just petered out.

The way Man City play is demoralising for the opposition, particularly if Man City take the lead.  I remember an early iteration of the FIFA computer game where you could pass the ball across defence endlessly and the coding of the game meant the person you were playing against could never get the ball off you.  My brother wanged me around the head with a controller for doing it to him once too often - that's how I feel watching Man City.

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #764 on: August 8, 2022, 04:13:11 pm »
Some rose tinted glasses here. If anything, I'd say our team is more mechanical, hence the preference for players like Gini and Hendo in midfield over the years compared to debruyne Silva et all.
Think you are misunderstanding what is meant by mechanical here. The point is that City's play is throughly rooted in micromanaged patterns of play developed by Guardiola, which they execute very well. People often say about Guardiola that if one of his players were to score a self-expressive left-field wonder goal he'd be subbing him off because he didn't carry out his instructions to the letter.

I don't know if that's ever actually happened, but there's usually some basis to claims like this.

That's not how we play at all. Gini and Hendo don't bring precision to the side, they bring/brought energy and covering and firefighting. They worked their socks off doing all the necessary covering and troubleshooting so that the players around them - the three attackers, the two fullback and even the CBs and keeper to a degree can play an on-the-edge, exploititive style that capitalises on the tiniest of opposition errors and also forces those errors. A sort of organised mayhem.

Quote
City regularly outscore us, score goals that are easier on the eye and are regularly winning the league.
It's true that their clockwork style results in lots of goals (but so does ours). Whether they are easier on the eye is a subjective point. You're welcome to prefer it if you want. Most, I suspect, prefer our more thrilling and varied style, our sudden goals out of nothing, from forcing errors, our fast turnovers etc. Perhaps there's less blistering pace and fewer goals on the break than we previously had, due mostly to the way teams set up against us, but still.

As for their regularly winning the league, that's no surprise, they are a great side. But two of those recent wins were by a point, not won till late in the season, while one was during our severest injury crisis ever. I can't remember if/how much they have outscored us by but I suspect it's not a huge amount

Their recent ascendency over us is annoying but marginal
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #765 on: August 8, 2022, 04:26:55 pm »
This just means we have to make up the points dropped somewhere else over the season. Just hope the injuries don't get any worse.

Just assume we beat Leicester away, and this replaces that as our obscenely bad performance of the season
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Offline ljycb

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #766 on: August 8, 2022, 05:16:08 pm »
Just assume we beat Leicester away, and this replaces that as our obscenely bad performance of the season

If we win the next two then we're looking at a situation in which we have taken seven points from Fulham away, Crystal Palace at home and Manchester United away. That wouldn't be bad going by any stretch.

Offline Fromola

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #767 on: August 8, 2022, 05:35:04 pm »
I think the difference is nothing more than this:

City play to control the game, like a bunch of mechanical parts, automatons, moving the ball about and retaining it using safe passes and minutely micromanaged patterns and positions. We, on the other hand, play more on the edge, taking risks, mixing styles and deliberately forcing opposition errors.

When it works our style can be breathtaking and beautiful and infinitely satisfying, whereas City's remains dull and mechanistic all the time. But when it doesn't work we are at greater risk of playing into trouble, and into the opposition's hands, whereas City are still there plodding away in the same automaton like way, a physical realisation of the conceptual clockwork taking place in their manager's head.

The way to get to City is to prevent their clockwork from being set into gear from the start. But that takes a lot of effort from lesser teams, and it's not that teams don't try, it's that their efforts, which are taking place, can be masked by the plod, plod, plod of the clockwork.

The way to 'get' at us is easier, because we play on the edge and concentrating their efforts upon one area can sometimes visibly overload us, though the concomitant risks are also greater for the opposition.

And that's why it sometimes seems like the oppos try harder against us than against CIty.

Teams know they'll always get a chance with us. Plus it's a more traditional game of football. You have the ball, we have the ball, you attack, we attack. Our emphasis is more on winning the ball back than it is keeping it.

City always dominate the ball and reduce most matches to training sessions and are totally robotic. It stands to reason what team opponents would rather face. We've relied a lot on knowing teams will go all out against us but will tire themselves out and then we can finish the game off. But for a bullshit penalty that tactic would still have worked yesterday and that's the risk. City get themselves in front early and then just strangle the life out the game.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline killer-heels

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #768 on: August 8, 2022, 05:53:03 pm »
If we win the next two then we're looking at a situation in which we have taken seven points from Fulham away, Crystal Palace at home and Manchester United away. That wouldn't be bad going by any stretch.

Indeed. But are we taking a win at Utd for granted? If we drop points that would be a shit start.

Offline ljycb

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #769 on: August 8, 2022, 06:08:20 pm »
Indeed. But are we taking a win at Utd for granted? If we drop points that would be a shit start.

Oh definitely not. It痴 just about how quickly things can change. If Henderson痴 shot goes in on Saturday then we池e all talking about how great we are, playing badly and still winning.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #770 on: August 8, 2022, 06:28:48 pm »
Oh definitely not. It痴 just about how quickly things can change. If Henderson痴 shot goes in on Saturday then we池e all talking about how great we are, playing badly and still winning.

Of course, thats a given, the result is all that matters. But drop points at Fulham then it puts pressure to win the next game. I would have taken 4 wins out of 5 but that was at a minimum, we now need to win the next 4. We cant be 4 points behind City.

Offline thaddeus

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #771 on: August 8, 2022, 06:38:47 pm »
Indeed. But are we taking a win at Utd for granted? If we drop points that would be a shit start.
If they end up signing Arnautovic I wouldn't even take the game going ahead for granted.  I can picture the green and yellow scarves being dusted off having been packed neatly away when Ronaldo re-signed.

Offline Fromola

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #772 on: August 8, 2022, 06:56:16 pm »
If we win the rest of our games till the internationals then it's still a good start. Going to be a tough task but achievable. We'll be another few points behind though awaiting for the rearranged United game after it gets abandoned though with nowhere to fit it in.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #773 on: August 8, 2022, 06:59:43 pm »
Not the easiest of opening weekends for expectant Reds to get a perspective on following the previous week痴 delicious despatching of City. In fact, enough double, triple, quadruple et alia whammies to test the calm and rationale of the most placid fanatic let alone manic red tinted cockeyed optimists like myself.

So we tick the boxes.

Limp performance against a super-charged newly promoted opposition check.

Two points less than the three reasonably/confidently expected check

City strolling to their three points against super-lethargic opposition check

City痴 half man/half fucking Kllngon seemingly off to a flier check

Half our midfield wiped out check

Jurgen more pissed off than we致e ever seen him check

Us lot equally pissed off too check

I知 sure there痴 more too. How痴 about this , forinstance a traffic warden booking me an hour before kick-off for being six fucking inches onto double yellow lines. And Jurgen thinks he痴 got problems.

Anyroad, so how do we get that all so precious rational perspective on all this in the midst of such a torrent of shite?

Shall I tell you?

We don稚. Because there simply ain稚 no easy get out clause for mad Reds after such a frustrating weekend. We just have to grin and bear it and fume and swear and kick the nearest cats day in day out until a week tonight when we knock seven kinds of shite out of Palace with an all singing all dancing footballing display to rank amongst the finest ever witnessed by an Anfield crowd ravenous for the season to properly commence. Oh and a non-injury prone midfielder in the meantime wouldn稚 exactly harm either. Oh and fuck City. Cheating scum of the fucking earth.

 ;D

Offline The Final Third

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #774 on: August 8, 2022, 07:09:13 pm »
This thread's just indulging paranoiacs now..

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #775 on: August 8, 2022, 07:23:00 pm »
This thread's just indulging paranoiacs now..

 ;D




Don't forget humourless c*nts too  ;)




Offline The Final Third

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #776 on: August 8, 2022, 07:59:36 pm »
;D




Don't forget humourless c*nts too  ;)

Aye  ;D soz Timbo my post fell after yours and in no way was I including you among the miseryposting ..you've always been a good read  :thumbup

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #777 on: August 8, 2022, 09:45:17 pm »
After Timbo's post I'd like to speak up on behalf of cats


but the truth is I hate the fuckers, so carry on

 :lickin
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #778 on: August 9, 2022, 12:28:18 am »
Aye  ;D soz Timbo my post fell after yours and in no way was I including you among the miseryposting ..you've always been a good read  :thumbup

Phew....

.....for a moment there I thought my gist had got lost again. That said, next Monday can稚 come soon enough for every Red to blow off the negative cobwebs - including the players and Jurgen

 :)

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #779 on: August 9, 2022, 12:34:00 am »
After Timbo's post I'd like to speak up on behalf of cats


but the truth is I hate the fuckers, so carry on

 :lickin

Of course, you know what I知 gonna say next don稚 yer Ghostie lad....like night follows day and opposing fan bases have followed their Kopite lords and masters ever since we first educated the mimicking c*nts back in the day...

A cat, a cat, a cat, a cat, a cat

 :)


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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #780 on: August 9, 2022, 01:03:33 am »
Spoke to my old man yesterday and he痴 giving it all the 田hasing already, 2 points behind, can稚 beat Fulham, etc etc  I thought a lot of the same myself, but found myself defending the lads. We definitely weren稚 up to the pace of the game and they池e gonna have to sharpen up quickly.

BUT. Fulham played well... They nipped at the heels every time we got the ball, the tight pitch didn稚 help, we hit the woodwork twice and had a goal disallowed. IF Fulham play with that intensity and physicality throughout this season they値l stay up no problem.

First game of the season, 37 to go, few lads have come in, few lads have left... It値l take time to find the combination that performs best on a match day, not just in training. I said to the old man, Klopp is going to have to how痴 it faith in some of the younger kids to bring an energy and new hunger. Elliot I would start for a few games for certain and see where it goes.
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Offline redk84

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #781 on: August 9, 2022, 09:30:17 am »
Since the match have zoomed out my perspective again, and although Fulham did well in their intensity we very much played into their hands.

We've seen a match like that alot, when we're not quite at the races but even still once we bring it back to 1-1 we usually go on to win that game. That's what should have happened...

That penalty killed it for us...
Maybe further along in the season and we would have found a way to win the game but we seemed pretty knackered by the time we drew level for the 2nd time. I don't think we created an opportunity in the last 10 mins?

It's not as bad as it seems. Get that win next week and we're good to go
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #782 on: August 9, 2022, 09:56:00 am »
Let's be honest here - we've had a good run, we did our best, but the league is City's so let's concentrate on the Champions League  :wave
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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #783 on: August 9, 2022, 10:59:53 am »
Devastated and feel empty we couldn't win our first game of the season? Of course, every single (true) fan feels this, undoubtedly.

As Klopp has mentioned after the game in his own words, "I am really fine with the point".

The best thing about football is the unpredictability nature of the game arousing you sexually to watch it, and keep watching it.

The hell people want to behold the sight of this beautiful game if the outcome is boring "stronger team wins and weaker team loses" where the result is guaranteed.

It doesn't work like that. For me, loyal support in the tough times is important and keeps us driving forward weathering fierce storm the whole season be it from City or other teams.

Most of us are old enough to remember...



But now in the reign of Klopp, we shall not be moved. Remember that in the first place.
It's there to remind our lads who they're playing for and to remind the opposition who they're playing against!

Offline PhilV

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #784 on: August 9, 2022, 11:07:06 am »
I'll be honest, I have not read the thread but I thought Jo縊 Palhinha was pretty good for them, I honestly can't believe he went to Fulham, he's class (IMO)
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Offline Dree

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #785 on: August 9, 2022, 12:14:26 pm »
Think you are misunderstanding what is meant by mechanical here. The point is that City's play is throughly rooted in micromanaged patterns of play developed by Guardiola, which they execute very well. People often say about Guardiola that if one of his players were to score a self-expressive left-field wonder goal he'd be subbing him off because he didn't carry out his instructions to the letter.

I don't know if that's ever actually happened, but there's usually some basis to claims like this.

That's not how we play at all. Gini and Hendo don't bring precision to the side, they bring/brought energy and covering and firefighting. They worked their socks off doing all the necessary covering and troubleshooting so that the players around them - the three attackers, the two fullback and even the CBs and keeper to a degree can play an on-the-edge, exploititive style that capitalises on the tiniest of opposition errors and also forces those errors. A sort of organised mayhem.
It's true that their clockwork style results in lots of goals (but so does ours). Whether they are easier on the eye is a subjective point. You're welcome to prefer it if you want. Most, I suspect, prefer our more thrilling and varied style, our sudden goals out of nothing, from forcing errors, our fast turnovers etc. Perhaps there's less blistering pace and fewer goals on the break than we previously had, due mostly to the way teams set up against us, but still.

As for their regularly winning the league, that's no surprise, they are a great side. But two of those recent wins were by a point, not won till late in the season, while one was during our severest injury crisis ever. I can't remember if/how much they have outscored us by but I suspect it's not a huge amount

Their recent ascendency over us is annoying but marginal

This part of our play has exacerbated over the last season or so with the decline of Gini and Firmino though. From 18-20 we were playing out quite a low of comfortable one goal score lines. Last year we relied on Alisson more in the league than I can remember (FWIW I think we win the title in 2020 with Adrian in goal all year).

Jota and Nunez have added to our direct goal threat at the loss of Firmino痴 qualities (which appear to be on the wane anyway, not surprisingly I think him and Gini must have just been exhausted by their roles) and only Thiago is capable of compensating so far. If Keita is fit he should be starting ahead of Henderson (should have started in Paris) - some of his off the ball work was fantastic last year especially the FA cup semi, which have earmarked him for other big games.

We really need Elliott and Jones to breakout this season if we池e going to win anything IMO, else buy someone else, it doesn稚 need to be Bellingham but the closest thing to Gini痴 skill set from 18-20 (it doesn稚 even need his attacking prowess which he marketed with Newcastle!).

Offline classycarra

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Re: PL: Fulham 2 v Liverpool 2 Mitrovich 33' 72' (p) Darwin 64' Salah 81'
« Reply #786 on: August 9, 2022, 01:42:45 pm »
I'll be honest, I have not read the thread but I thought Jo縊 Palhinha was pretty good for them, I honestly can't believe he went to Fulham, he's class (IMO)

Yeah he really stood out. He made competing physically with our midfield look far easier than I'm used to seeing. Didn't realise til later that it was his debut.