Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Jshooters]

It's amazing the PL doesn't demand full explanations be released for all decisions, and non-decisions.

At the end of the day the refs are essentially the "3rd team" in matches, and have a massive impact on the "product".

Great point. How a multibillion pound industry has such lax governance is frankly horrifying

[smicer07]

So where are we with VAR today?  A finger brushing a cheek is a foul, and enough of a reason to overturn a goal, but a kick to the head is not enough for a penalty.

Gallagher will no doubt defend both decisions on his tour of the sport channels tomorrow.

They were both accidental, but still fouls.

[wenlock]

Ok just to be different I will go for option 3 and say that it isn't the refs (it is really) or the accuracy of the tech (it is really) it's something else. It's the laws and lawmakers of the game. A laughable title to give these people as they do not obey the actual principles of law as in trying to find the truth of it.

I have seen the incident with goal line tech mentioned last season and how that allowed Villa to stay up which sums my point up. Everyone knew, everyone could see from the pictures what had happened but it was ignored, in this case because the tech malfunctioned.

There you have it m' lord, common sense and evidence was and is regularly ignored. It is not about finding the truth of it with football, it's just about backing up bad reffing.

[free_at_last]

I listed the possession/foul stats for every game this year and there is a similar pattern. Since the WBA game when we were expected to go top but which was the start of the wheels falling off the only game where we committed less fouls than the opposition was Leicester away despite some massive possession stats.
Opponent        our possession  fouls(our number first each time)
leeds(h) 4-3        48%        9-6
chelsea(a) 2-0      62%        6-10
arsenal(h) 3-1      66%        11-7
villa(a)  2-7       70%        10-7
everton(a) 2-2      59%        9-15
sheff utd(h) 2-1    63%        7-15
west ham(h) 2-1     73%        13-14
man city(a) 1-1     45%        11-19
leicester(h)3-0     57%        15-6
brighton(a) 1-1     60%        13-9
wolves(h) 4-0       61%         8-14
fulham(a) 1-1       76%         5-9
spurs(h) 2-1        76%         8-9
palace(a) 7-0       65%        11-5
wba(h) 1-1          79%         8-5
newcastle(a) 0-0    74%        13-9
southampton(a) 0-1  67%        12-5
manu(h) 0-0         66%        15-6
burnley(h) 0-1      72%        11-8
spurs(a) 3-1        51%        11-9
west ham(a) 3-1     68%         8-7
brighton(h) 0-1     64%        12-6
man city(h) 1-4     56%        13-8
leicester(a) 1-3    62%         6-7
everton(h) 0-2      72%        10-10
sheff utd(a) 2-0    61%         9-9
chelsea(h) 0-1      55%         9-8
fulham(h) 0-1       64%        10-8
wolves(a) 1-0       47%        10-17
arsenal(a) 3-0      65%        10-10
villa(h) 2-1          67%        16-11

There are examples earlier in the season but it is not as pronounced. I agree, I think opponents now know that refs will give them the call if they go down under any pressure against us.

Edited: Sorry, the Wolves away game is a standout apart from Leicester(isn't Nuno in the PGMOL bad books as well as us?)

Just in addition to this, how does a team which is top of the fair play league manage to outfoul almost every opponent?
https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/fairnesstabelle/wettbewerb/GB1/saison_id/2020

Either we are actually the 70's Leeds or something is fishy. Even the yellow cards in that fair play league are inflated. Yesterday Milner got booked for a perfectly good tackle(didn't have a leg raised and took the ball 100% first) then Fabinho(I think) got booked for nothing and the manc fanboy ref had the audacity to call Milner over for a lecture about our persistent fouling!!!!!!!!!!! It's like they're screwing us and then laughing in our face!!

[kj999]

The lines need sacking off. As said above a quick check of the replay with the naked eye will do. If it’s not obvious it’s level and level is onside. Sure, you will still get some staggering decisisions, but it’s a lot more simple so you get a lot less of them. And because it’s more simple, fans and officials will be more likely to be on the same page and we can celebrate a goal again. I also think it should be the grounded feet only considered. Simplifies it further. The last thing the game needs is for c*nts in a box looking for ways to chalk goals off.

Exactly. If they bin off the lines, it solves so many problems. If you look at it with naked eye and can't say "thats definitely offside", then its onside.

The thing with the lines is, if the knob applying them want to make it look offside, then he will.

[free_at_last]

Exactly. If they bin off the lines, it solves so many problems. If you look at it with naked eye and can't say "thats definitely offside", then its onside.

The thing with the lines is, if the knob applying them want to make it look offside, then he will.

Only problem is, if the knob making the decision is one of our resident manc fanboy refs he will just say “it’s definitely offside” and we are screwed anyway as there is no review of or accountability for his decision.

[harleydanger]

It's amazing any of them are still in a job.

ANY other occupation, they'd be walked out the front door by security and then sued for incompetence.

[farawayred]

It's amazing any of them are still in a job.

ANY other occupation, they'd be walked out the front door by security and then sued for incompetence.

Mildly put, yeah, 100%.

[red1977]

I thought it was shagging Thai women?

If you draw a line down those Thai women's necks, you can clearly see an adam's apple prortruding.

[Lad]

Still though as reluctant as I am to give United the steam off the proverbial....Son !!! What a cùnt of a way for a professional footballer to behave.

[Barneylfc∗]

They were both accidental, but still fouls.

How was the Son incident a foul? His reaction doesn't make it a foul, and from the replays I watched, he swings his arm at McTominay in the first place?

[clinical]

Got to be the first 50:50 to go against utd this season. I'm surprised they weren't awarded 2 goals for Son going down easily.

[12C]

The lack of crowds is making this easier, you can clearly hear the scream as the bullet slams into the player. I'm sure its only really been a thing since Fernandes signed for the Mancs, I don't remember players screaming as much as that cheat does. Ederson did it against Dortmund the other night too.

Joe Cole used to do it at Chelsea.
Hazard was worse. He used to actually squeal if anyone touched him.

[12C]

I agree they hadnt set the goal up correctly if you believe that.

VAR though should have seen it tthough and you have to wonder why they didnt !

I think the vast majority of fans/players/pundits do believe it works.

It should work up to a point. That point was that the players somehow obscured the technological ability.
The ref could see it was a goal, he actually gestured to his watch as an excuse for not giving it. The real time TV showed it was a goal.
The replays showed it should have been given.

[Barneylfc∗]

It should work up to a point. That point was that the players somehow obscured the technological ability.
The ref could see it was a goal, he actually gestured to his watch as an excuse for not giving it. The real time TV showed it was a goal.
The replays showed it should have been given.

Definitely read somewhere that Oliver's watch buzzed at half time to say it was a goal.
VAR should definitely have got involved in this though. As soon as it was clear the ball was over the line, which everyone knew instantly, the VAR should have given Oliver a shout to let him know something is up. A quick 1 minute interruption to check if the goal line tech was working, and VAR telling him the goal should be given and Villa would have been relegated (in an ideal world where everything played out as it did afterwards). 

[Enders]

How was the Son incident a foul? His reaction doesn't make it a foul, and from the replays I watched, he swings his arm at McTominay in the first place?

It's a foul in the lead up to a goal. Now I don't believe McTominay intended to, but he did catch Son in the face, potentially in the eye, with a flailing hand. I know I'd be absolutely incandescent with rage if that was Mane getting caught and the refs didn't disallow the goal.

Its a foul in the lead up to a goal, a bit like when Origi was fouled at the toilet last year, not given.

Its a foul in the lead up to a goal, a bit like when Mane was fouled at Leicester a few weeks ago, and Madrid last week, neither given.

If their whining wasn't so pathetic, I'd find it funny that VAR is only a problem now that them c*nts have had one decision out of dozens 'go against them'.

[Barneylfc∗]

It's a foul in the lead up to a goal. Now I don't believe McTominay intended to, but he did catch Son in the face, potentially in the eye, with a flailing hand. I know I'd be absolutely incandescent with rage if that was Mane getting caught and the refs didn't disallow the goal.

Its a foul in the lead up to a goal, a bit like when Origi was fouled at the toilet last year, not given.

Its a foul in the lead up to a goal, a bit like when Mane was fouled at Leicester a few weeks ago, and Madrid last week, neither given.

If their whining wasn't so pathetic, I'd find it funny that VAR is only a problem now that them c*nts have had one decision out of dozens 'go against them'.

It took me 3 replays to notice McTominay catching him. The first 2 all I seen was Son hitting McTominay. So the ref basically decided that one was a foul and one wasn't, even though they done the exact same thing.

[Enders]

It took me 3 replays to notice McTominay catching him. The first 2 all I seen was Son hitting McTominay. So the ref basically decided that one was a foul and one wasn't, even though they done the exact same thing.

Does Son catch McTominay in the eye with the edge of his hand?

[Lusty]

Only problem is, if the knob making the decision is one of our resident manc fanboy refs he will just say “it’s definitely offside” and we are screwed anyway as there is no review of or accountability for his decision.

At least we'd be getting to the wrong decision quickly. Right now we're getting the wrong decision after 5 minutes of farting about.

[CraigDS]

It's a foul in the lead up to a goal. Now I don't believe McTominay intended to, but he did catch Son in the face, potentially in the eye, with a flailing hand. I know I'd be absolutely incandescent with rage if that was Mane getting caught and the refs didn't disallow the goal.

Not sure how it's a foul personally.

It's an accidental touch on the face from a hand he's using to protect his body from Son tugging on his shirt.

The fact it's potentially in the eye doesn't matter.

[Machae]

I love the whole inconsistency of it all. Had the Utd player fouled Son in the same way in the penalty area, would that be a penalty?

[rob1966]

Not sure how it's a foul personally.

It's an accidental touch on the face from a hand he's using to protect his body from Son tugging on his shirt.

The fact it's potentially in the eye doesn't matter.

That way I saw it was McTominay was away from Son and then hit out at him, not to fend him off, just to belt him.

[CraigDS]

That way I saw it was McTominay was away from Son and then hit out at him, not to fend him off, just to belt him.

It looks like he's pushing Son's hand off, then it loses grip and sort of flicks back with the momentum into his face.

Just don't see how it's enough to be a foul, and I'd be pissed if we had a goal ruled out due to Thiago doing that.

It's just fucking soft, and the rolling around after it is pathetic quite frankly, and I'd happily call any of our players out if they did the same.

[Barneylfc∗]

Does Son catch McTominay in the eye with the edge of his hand?

No, but why does that matter? The foul should be awarded on the action of the player, not the outcome. Son swung his arm at McTominay, causing himself to be within arms length of him. McTominay raised his arm to fend him off, as pretty much every player does when being challenged.

[Big Red Richie]

The whole on side/off side, was it a goal, is getting ludicrous, and worse by the week.

You can be deemed off side, by the length of your nasal hair these days.

That is not in the spirit of the off side law, and the fact it was brought in to stop an opponent gaining an unfair advantage.

This is, and always was, about proving the technology right, not the game, and POGMOL and the referee's are just reinforcing that, every week.

Surely, closed season, they have to look at it again.

[The G in Gerrard]

Good old Dermot Gallagher:

- Pogba should have been given a yellow card not red.
- Newcastle should have been given a penalty. VAR is not there to decide if referee got decision right or wrong.
- Leeds player decision was right to be given a red.
- Sterling & Fernandinho wasn't a red.

[sinnermichael]

Dermot Gallagher changes his mind on the rules and spouts bullshit at great length every week on Sky just to back up whatever abominable decisions Premier League referees make.

[The G in Gerrard]

Good old Dermot Gallagher:

- Pogba should have been given a yellow card not red.
- Newcastle should have been given a penalty. VAR is not there to decide if referee got decision right or wrong.
- Leeds player decision was right to be given a red.
- Sterling & Fernandinho wasn't a red.

As for our "offside" decision and Wolves - he puts it down to technology.

[The G in Gerrard]

Dermot Gallagher changes his mind on the rules and spouts bullshit at great length every week on Sky just to back up whatever abominable decisions Premier League referees make.

True. Just highlights the sheer "power" of the refereeing body that they can say what they like and doesn't get scrutinized outside of 30 minutes on a Monday morning.

[Kekule]

Good old Dermot Gallagher:

- Pogba should have been given a yellow card not red.
- Newcastle should have been given a penalty. VAR is not there to decide if referee got decision right or wrong.
- Leeds player decision was right to be given a red.
- Sterling & Fernandinho wasn't a red.

He’s said this before, and I don’t get it.  Because in the very next example it did decide that the ref got the yellow card to the Leeds player wrong and told him to have another look at it (i.e send him off).

I thought the whole point of VAR was to get to the right decision if the ref had got it badly wrong.

[The G in Gerrard]

He’s said this before, and I don’t get it.  Because in the very next example it did decide that the ref got the yellow card to the Leeds player wrong and told him to have another look at it (i.e send him off).

I thought the whole point of VAR was to get to the right decision if the ref had got it badly wrong.

I was astonished first time he said it as well but they are only to intervene if it's a clear & obvious error. It's all subjective really and if the people in charge are inept then what can anyone expect.

That lines woman Massey iirc? She seems far more capable than match referees imo.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

As for our "offside" decision and Wolves - he puts it down to technology.

Is he admitting that the technology is not capable of doing what they are trying to use it for?

Yet still according to an article in today's Indy, they are trying to tell us that offside is a non subjective binary decision and that they think we all need to view it the same as goal line technology.

[The G in Gerrard]

Is he admitting that the technology is not capable of doing what they are trying to use it for?

Yet still according to an article in today's Indy, they are trying to tell us that offside is a non subjective binary decision and that they think we all need to view it the same as goal line technology.

More along the lines of this is what people wanted & referenced Charlie Austin interview for QPR.

Said people aren't happy when there's millimetres involved.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Talk about defensive.
To use that to justify some of the utter crap we have had to put up with is an insult.

Of course people want to see an end to the really obvious errors. But when the technology cannot yet reliably deliver the precision that they are attempting to measure decisions by, and when there is a lack of consistency in what VAR looks at and how long the checks take, then what do they expect?

[free_at_last]

I thought it was shagging Thai women?

As for PGMOL referees , we all know their predilictions are disgusting.
It is absolutely sickening behaviour.
If anybody in my family had preferences like theirs I would be ashamed and disgusted and I would erase them from the family history.
But it is 2021.
If they want to support manchester united then nobody can stop them.

[Crosby Nick]

The whole on side/off side, was it a goal, is getting ludicrous, and worse by the week.

You can be deemed off side, by the length of your nasal hair these days.

That is not in the spirit of the off side law, and the fact it was brought in to stop an opponent gaining an unfair advantage.

This is, and always was, about proving the technology right, not the game, and POGMOL and the referee's are just reinforcing that, every week.

Surely, closed season, they have to look at it again.

I agree on the laws issue completely.

Take our disallowed goal on Saturday: Jota may or may not have been offside. However it’s not like he went through and scored. He got on the end of the ball, passed to Mo, who passed to Robertson who’s shot broke to Firmino who scored. Whether it’s offside or not that’s quite a bit of football that’s happened from when Trent passed.

On the flip side you see goals scored most weeks now where a forward is standing offside, the ball is passed to someone different, the player who was yards offside trots back a few yards, gets passed the ball and scores.

In my mind the player in the second example will have gained a lot more of an advantage than Jota did by having his shoulder slightly ahead of the defender’s knee. The whole thing needs a rethink, not just the VAR part.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I agree on the laws issue completely.

Take our disallowed goal on Saturday: Jota may or may not have been offside. However it’s not like he went through and scored. He got on the end of the ball, passed to Mo, who passed to Robertson who’s shot broke to Firmino who scored. Whether it’s offside or not that’s quite a bit of football that’s happened from when Trent passed.

On the flip side you see goals scored most weeks now where a forward is standing offside, the ball is passed to someone different, the player who was yards offside trots back a few yards, gets passed the ball and scores.

In my mind the player in the second example will have gained a lot more of an advantage than Jota did by having his shoulder slightly ahead of the defender’s knee. The whole thing needs a rethink, not just the VAR part.

Makes the one Villa got in the return game even more strange, there were loads off and I'm sure one of them contributed to the goal.

[redgriffin73]

I agree on the laws issue completely.

Take our disallowed goal on Saturday: Jota may or may not have been offside. However it’s not like he went through and scored. He got on the end of the ball, passed to Mo, who passed to Robertson who’s shot broke to Firmino who scored. Whether it’s offside or not that’s quite a bit of football that’s happened from when Trent passed.

On the flip side you see goals scored most weeks now where a forward is standing offside, the ball is passed to someone different, the player who was yards offside trots back a few yards, gets passed the ball and scores.

In my mind the player in the second example will have gained a lot more of an advantage than Jota did by having his shoulder slightly ahead of the defender’s knee. The whole thing needs a rethink, not just the VAR part.

Yep, saw this in one of the West Ham goals (I think) yesterday. If Bobby had been offside initially when Trent passed to Jota, and not Jota, our goal would have stood, even though he scored it!

[Dave McCoy]

I referenced this on Saturday but these quotes from Collina again make it seem as if PGMOL/PL/FA are on their own just sticking to these crazy minute off-side decisions that just piss everybody off for almost no gain. 

"If the images are not conclusive, then the field decision cannot be overruled. So it is important that what is shown offers something conclusive. Otherwise, I would say, in case of doubt, follow the field decision."

They're already doing this in the CL and EL, why can't they do this here now?  I suppose sporting integrity as some teams would now get goals given that otherwise they would not?  But you could say that about the handball law that they've already changed 2 times as the season has gone along.

Also Dale Johnson's thread I think highlights what should be the biggest issue as an LFC fan with the McTominay call:



If McTominay's is a foul then what is this?  A red card and a goal disallowed?  It's a complete farce.

This was quite a gem:

Attwell hasn't advised a pen for a foul as VAR all season, including this one.

LOL, what is he doing then?  Just eating popcorn enjoying the game?

[rob1966]

I agree on the laws issue completely.

Take our disallowed goal on Saturday: Jota may or may not have been offside. However it’s not like he went through and scored. He got on the end of the ball, passed to Mo, who passed to Robertson who’s shot broke to Firmino who scored. Whether it’s offside or not that’s quite a bit of football that’s happened from when Trent passed.

On the flip side you see goals scored most weeks now where a forward is standing offside, the ball is passed to someone different, the player who was yards offside trots back a few yards, gets passed the ball and scores.

In my mind the player in the second example will have gained a lot more of an advantage than Jota did by having his shoulder slightly ahead of the defender’s knee. The whole thing needs a rethink, not just the VAR part.

I still remember wanting to kill the lineo who did the Kemlyn side in December 2004, Newcastle break, Kluivert stood about 5 yards offside, ball goes wide, Kluivert aort of stutters his run, then sets off again, no defender ever gets goal side of him, cross comes in and he scores and its given.