Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance

[Pistolero]

10th March: 1-1 Vs City

17th March: 3-4 Vs Utd


Should've won both games....but that week derailed the season....and we didnt recover

[meady1981]

We looked pretty ropey home to Brighton and Sheffield Utd. They could have both taken points off us. Should have beaten Luton and Brighton away. We jussssst about got away with it at Forest by the finest of margins. And Palace. Couldn’t beat Utd at home. We dropped points all over the place and picked up pretty cheap ones on occasions. The point is, over the season we were never truly in it. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed it, but we were never in it. Not seriously anyway. Arsenal are a level above us at the moment, they’ve looked like champions. And they looked better than us in the league both times we’ve played. Don’t give a shit about the other team.

[LFCEmpire]

We looked pretty ropey home to Brighton and Sheffield Utd. They could have both taken points off us. Should have beaten Luton and Brighton away. We jussssst about got away with it at Forest by the finest of margins. And Palace. Couldn’t beat Utd at home. We dropped points all over the place and picked up pretty cheap ones on occasions. The point is, over the season we were never truly in it. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed it, but we were never in it. Not seriously anyway. Arsenal are a level above us at the moment, they’ve looked like champions. And they looked better than us in the league both times we’ve played. Don’t give a shit about the other team.

Yeah I tend to agree with this analysis of the season.

Regarding the highlighted bit... nobody gives a shit about the other team.

[TheShanklyGates]

It's still baffling to me how so many people were so sure that we were fine if we dropped points because there was no way that Arsenal/City were going to finish out the season without dropping any.  The recent history of this league says otherwise and it has been proven once again.  Maybe it'll change when Pep leaves City but right now, when you get to first in the table, every game is a must win. 

Yep. There is no such thing as good draws in title races any more - you have to be pretty much perfect and sometimes even that isn't enough.

'Normal' title races with twists and turns are a thing of the past.

10th March: 1-1 Vs City

17th March: 3-4 Vs Utd


Should've won both games....but that week derailed the season....and we didnt recover

Agreed. Draws against title rivals aren't good enough and I think the cup game at Old Trafford destroyed our confidence.

[killer-heels]

In terms of the run in next season, fans will make the same mistake in thinking that City wont win all the games they need to win. It will be the same thing of “oh they havent won that many games in a row” that we will always hear.

If City win the league this season then it will illustrate once again that the only way you win this league is you blow them away with your start of season form, like we did and like Arsenal did last season albeit arsenal dropped off a cliff.

You are not beating City in a run in.

[Barneylfc∗]

We looked pretty ropey home to Brighton and Sheffield Utd. They could have both taken points off us. Should have beaten Luton and Brighton away. We jussssst about got away with it at Forest by the finest of margins. And Palace. Couldn’t beat Utd at home. We dropped points all over the place and picked up pretty cheap ones on occasions. The point is, over the season we were never truly in it. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed it, but we were never in it. Not seriously anyway. Arsenal are a level above us at the moment, they’ve looked like champions. And they looked better than us in the league both times we’ve played. Don’t give a shit about the other team.

Every team drops points unexpectedly or wins a game at the death that they barely deserved to win. That's part and parcel of football and should be accepted.

Other things shouldn't be part and parcel of football and shouldn't be accepted.

[meady1981]

Every team drops points unexpectedly or wins a game at the death that they barely deserved to win. That's part and parcel of football and should be accepted.

Other things shouldn't be part and parcel of football and shouldn't be accepted.

Sure, but it just felt like most games we played it was an option that we could drop them. Compared to Arsenal. 

[jepovic]

We looked pretty ropey home to Brighton and Sheffield Utd. They could have both taken points off us. Should have beaten Luton and Brighton away. We jussssst about got away with it at Forest by the finest of margins. And Palace. Couldn’t beat Utd at home. We dropped points all over the place and picked up pretty cheap ones on occasions. The point is, over the season we were never truly in it. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed it, but we were never in it. Not seriously anyway. Arsenal are a level above us at the moment, they’ve looked like champions. And they looked better than us in the league both times we’ve played. Don’t give a shit about the other team.

Yeah, we were riding our look for a long time, with some late comebacks. Very entertaining and impressive, but we seldom had that robustness that champions typically exhibit. It's hard to rely on overtime winners to win titles.

I was hoping that we would find that next level in the spring with some key players returning from injury, but instead we got worse and lost the plot.

Overall, third was close to my expectations before the season.

That said, it's a pretty weak year for PL. I'm not all that impressed by Arsenal and City, and none of them are as good as the PL winners the last 5 years or so.

[Fromola]

Every team drops points unexpectedly or wins a game at the death that they barely deserved to win. That's part and parcel of football and should be accepted.

Other things shouldn't be part and parcel of football and shouldn't be accepted.

Yes, but not every week. It can't be the norm to go behind every week and sleepwalk for half an hour at the start, or to need injury time goals. You need to have the ability to win late, win without playing well, but you can't carry it for a whole season as a routine.

[jillcwhomever]

Yes, but not every week. It can't be the norm to go behind every week and sleepwalk for half an hour at the start, or to need injury time goals. You need to have the ability to win late, win without playing well, but you can't carry it for a whole season as a routine.

That was when we were having to change our defence virtually every week, as we had injured players and then other players coming back into the team who lacked their usual rhythm.

[KC7]

Our issues were nothing to do with the defence.

Can count on one hand the number of big errors Virgil and Quansah combined made all season. They've both had excellent seasons. When we were top there was talk of Virgil as POTY, and Quansah YPOTY. Gomez has also been really good when he came in. Konate's distribution has been off, but hes still a top class CB

The issue, as it has been for two seasons, is the lack of protection infront of them. We are pissweak in midfield, flaky as fuck. We had an elite DM two years ago.

In Istanbul when we conceded three in the first half, Hyypia and Carragher, who in the knockout rounds had been watertight, as they had a DM infront of them, were now helpless with no protection infront of them. Opposing midfielders and forwards freely running at the backline means disaster, don't care who is in the defence. We don't stop the danger at source any more, which Arsenal do having spent big on their midfield, so the opposition are rarely in their penalty area.

Prior to the Villa game, we have won 1 game against the top 10 away from home all season, and that a complete smash and grab at Newcastle who for 75 minutes ran all over our unathletic excuse for a midfield. We've had a glaring weakness in the team for two seasons, one that completely wrecked the 22-23 season, and one we have only half--heartedly addressed last summer with that midfield rebuild.
 

[elkun]

totally agree with what was said above. What I don't think has helped is Dominik's form. Out of nowhere it suddenly disappeared completely. Alexis had a period where he got us through with certain results. but when his form diminished a little. no one has taken over. i believe if dominik had his form from the beginning of the season through the whole season. then we could have gotten even more out of it.

[lionel_messias]

100% correct.

Our midfield can be played through.

We have to also acknowledge that when in his pomp, Fabinho was elite and
incredible as a defensive "6", where we had gadget legs we now have legs akimbo.

[Johnny Aldridge]

We lost a hell of a lot when Gini left. We desperately need that type of player again.

[Sonofthewind]

When is the last time we had a season finish like this. Not quite in the hunt for the title at the end but also comfortable for Europe. It feels like the past 15 years have been either scrapping for Europe or title challenges.

[spider-neil]

We lost a hell of a lot when Gini left. We desperately need that type of player again.

We essentially have that player in Jones. Unfortunately, what Gini had that Jones does not is availability.

[spider-neil]

Win the last game and we the worst we finish behind the champions is 9 points with Villa being 11 points behind us. So we'd be closer to the champions than the teams chasing top 4.
Not much of a distinction but you'd be building toward a title challenge rather than building toward consolidating the top 4.

[lionel_messias]

It is the ultimate bitters tears night for Arsenal tonight, as their forlorn hopes crash up against the sheer crapness of Ange's Spurs.

[Suareznumber7]

You are not beating City in a run in.

I think this changes when Guardiola leaves.  Or, I guess I should say, I hope it changes when he leaves. 

[Suareznumber7]

Sure, but it just felt like most games we played it was an option that we could drop them. Compared to Arsenal.

I think that's because our style of play/tactical setup doesn't have as much control in it as Arsenal and City does. 

[AndyMuller]

When is the last time we had a season finish like this. Not quite in the hunt for the title at the end but also comfortable for Europe. It feels like the past 15 years have been either scrapping for Europe or title challenges.

I wish we went all in on the Europa now.

Would have been some party in Dublin and a fitting end.

[nerdster4]

Tonight shows how difficult it is to win anything in the state sponsored pep era. Klopp did amazingly to win everything . Arsenal likely ending another season trophyless is mad . They have been immense

[Jwils21]

When is the last time we had a season finish like this. Not quite in the hunt for the title at the end but also comfortable for Europe. It feels like the past 15 years have been either scrapping for Europe or title challenges.

The Villa game was weird because it was so relaxed. It was nice to be able to just sit back and enjoy a game without considering the wider picture.

Wolves will be the same and will give us the opportunity for a massive send off to Jurgen. Maybe he'll take the piss with the team and start Adrian up front.

[lionel_messias]

The Villa game was weird because it was so relaxed. It was nice to be able to just sit back and enjoy a game without considering the wider picture.

Wolves will be the same and will give us the opportunity for a massive send off to Jurgen. Maybe he'll take the piss with the team and start Adrian up front.

Be nice to see a bit of a goal fest, maybe a purple patch for Salah.

No prizes for guessing who each goal will be celebrated for.


Game live of Sky btw, little tribute to Klopp that. TNT wouldn't be doing that

[Sharado]

In terms of the run in next season, fans will make the same mistake in thinking that City wont win all the games they need to win. It will be the same thing of “oh they havent won that many games in a row” that we will always hear.

If City win the league this season then it will illustrate once again that the only way you win this league is you blow them away with your start of season form, like we did and like Arsenal did last season albeit arsenal dropped off a cliff.

You are not beating City in a run in.

I more or less agree but think where we were in late March was pretty bloody good. We had a half decent lead on city with them still to come to Anfield. Win at anfield and we could have had a couple of iffy results along the way and still won the title. This squad wasn't up to that, and 3rd is the right level for us, but if we'd been in that place in 2019 or probably 2022 then I think we'd have held them off. In both those years we found ourselves chasing from early/mid march [ballpark]. Basically what I'm saying is if you can't blow them away early [like we did in 19/20] then you just need to keep them at 'arms length' till late march and hope your form holds up, because from the international break onwards they're winning every game.

[MonsLibpool]

I more or less agree but think where we were in late March was pretty bloody good. We had a half decent lead on city with them still to come to Anfield. Win at anfield and we could have had a couple of iffy results along the way and still won the title. This squad wasn't up to that, and 3rd is the right level for us, but if we'd been in that place in 2019 or probably 2022 then I think we'd have held them off. In both those years we found ourselves chasing from early/mid march [ballpark]. Basically what I'm saying is if you can't blow them away early [like we did in 19/20] then you just need to keep them at 'arms length' till late march and hope your form holds up, because from the international break onwards they're winning every game.

We have to be beating them. Anything less against them in the run-in is just not good enough.

Beat them at Anfield and the momentum we take from that probably sees us over the line. The only time we beat them while challenging in recent years, we won it.

I remember calling the game at Anfield an "emotional" must-win for that reason because there's a lot riding on it and it's not "just" 3 points.

[Sharado]

We have to be beating them. Anything less against them in the run-in is just not good enough.

Beat them at Anfield and the momentum we take from that probably sees us over the line. The only time we beat them while challenging in recent years, we won it.

I remember calling the game at Anfield an "emotional" must-win for that reason because there's a lot riding on it and it's not "just" 3 points.

Maybe. I'm not convinced this squad had enough in the final yards when the pressure was REALLY on for us to win it, but I know what you mean about the emotion maybe pushing us that bit further [it would have seriously knocked them too]. People will - quite rightly - point to the penalty shout late on in that game which was a fucking shambles, but we should have been out of sight by then anyway.

[MonsLibpool]

Maybe. I'm not convinced this squad had enough in the final yards when the pressure was REALLY on for us to win it, but I know what you mean about the emotion maybe pushing us that bit further [it would have seriously knocked them too]. People will - quite rightly - point to the penalty shout late on in that game which was a fucking shambles, but we should have been out of sight by then anyway.

This season, we were quite emotional in the sense that we knew how to ride the highs but the flip side was that we found it hard to manage the lows. The City game was a pressure game too but we were "in a good way" at that point.

Beat City and they are clinging on with their next game being against Arsenal... Going forward, we have to be winning these games and that's what we should be building towards in the transfer market.

[jepovic]

Our issues were nothing to do with the defence.

Can count on one hand the number of big errors Virgil and Quansah combined made all season. They've both had excellent seasons. When we were top there was talk of Virgil as POTY, and Quansah YPOTY. Gomez has also been really good when he came in. Konate's distribution has been off, but hes still a top class CB

The issue, as it has been for two seasons, is the lack of protection infront of them. We are pissweak in midfield, flaky as fuck. We had an elite DM two years ago.

In Istanbul when we conceded three in the first half, Hyypia and Carragher, who in the knockout rounds had been watertight, as they had a DM infront of them, were now helpless with no protection infront of them. Opposing midfielders and forwards freely running at the backline means disaster, don't care who is in the defence. We don't stop the danger at source any more, which Arsenal do having spent big on their midfield, so the opposition are rarely in their penalty area.

Prior to the Villa game, we have won 1 game against the top 10 away from home all season, and that a complete smash and grab at Newcastle who for 75 minutes ran all over our unathletic excuse for a midfield. We've had a glaring weakness in the team for two seasons, one that completely wrecked the 22-23 season, and one we have only half--heartedly addressed last summer with that midfield rebuild.

Agree completely. It often seems like only the CBs and DM are rated on their defensive performance, and the rest are seen as attacking players.
But defense is a team effort, and I think we have gotten worse defensively in almost every position the last few years. Mane/Bobby/Salah were pressing machines, and we have nothing like that anymore. Our 8s (bar Mac who spent half the season as 6) are too soft and passive, and lightyears away from peak Hendo and Gini (not that holding on to them would have helped).

We've become a neater, weaker and more comfortable team. I actually think our back 5 are pretty equal to the peak years.

[PIPA23]

The Diaz offside call against Tottenham was outrageous.. it was the breaking point for many i believe.

No penalty for the hand in Arsenal game the same..

potentially could been 6 points and we would be in much better position.

[KC7]

The Diaz offside call against Tottenham was outrageous.. it was the breaking point for many i believe.

No penalty for the hand in Arsenal game the same..

potentially could been 6 points and we would be in much better position.

Doesn't work like that though. Beating Spurs doesn't automatically mean 3 points more. Change anything in the season (especially early on) that then has a knock on effect on the things that happen after.

And being behind 23 times we've had so many games that could easily have gone the wrong way for us. The win at Newcastle, they dominated for 75 and should have been out of sight. Losing 3-2 at home to Fulham after 86 minutes, how often do you win that game? The win at Palace, they were in top for 75 minutes until a soft red card. Last second equaliser at Luton, last second winner at Forest (around the 75th minute they had a glorious chance to go ahead with a shot that was a yard past the post), and before our downturn in results the two home wins vs Brighton and Sheff United, the first we were hanging on and Lallana wasn't far away from equalising very late on, the second it took a Mac special to put us unfront with 15 to go. We hadn't been convincing.

It was unrealistic for us to have a title challenge this season as the team needed so much work, work that is incomplete. For where we are, in a rebuilding phase, it's been a good season. Jurgen won't be here to finish off that rebuild this summer. Hopefully Slot does,  and if that happens we have to be challenging next season.

[Cormack Snr]

Out of interest and I might of missed the general vibe of this thread since we dropped out of the title race, but who do people want to win once we couldn't.
I don't have a second team like some people and if Liverpool can't win something I don't really care who wins.
Arsenal will be sick like us when we got beat by those one points, Arsenal have a really good team and we are not at their level.
City have bought 100m and 50m players who didn't play all the time, overall us and Arsenal couldn't do that.
City winning now means nothing and when they get their 50pts deduction it will cast a massive shadow over all they have won over the past decade but it won't bring those missing titles to us and Arsenal

[meady1981]

Out of interest and I might of missed the general vibe of this thread since we dropped out of the title race, but who do people want to win once we couldn't.
I don't have a second team like some people and if Liverpool can't win something I don't really care who wins.
Arsenal will be sick like us when we got beat by those one points, Arsenal have a really good team and we are not at their level.
City have bought 100m and 50m players who didn't play all the time, overall us and Arsenal couldn't do that.
City winning now means nothing and when they get their 50pts deduction it will cast a massive shadow over all they have won over the past decade but it won't bring those missing titles to us and Arsenal

This got pretty heated in the Premier league thread the other night.

I'd say 80% want City to win because they're a complete sham of a club thats destroyed the integrity of the game and it means nothing.
And the other 20% want Arsenal to win because City are a complete sham of a club thats destroyed the integrity of the game and it means nothing. Most of that 20% were very dissapointent at the 80%.

[Fromola]

Brentford away was the killer as well. We lost Jones, Salah and Jota to injury that day and neither of them offered much when they eventually did come back. Jota and Jones were flying at the time.

[Cormack Snr]

When we won the league in 1979 we drew 10 and lost 7, Arsenal in 4th drew 16 and lost 8. This season we have drawn 10 and only lost 4 with only Brighton drawing more out of every team. We have drew twice as many as Arsenal.
Missing all those chances has cost us the league big style, having just one regular goal scorer would of clinched the league.
Starting slow, going behind early in too many games has worn us down and not been addressed and all this close passing when bringing the ball out from defence has also cost us.

[Fromola]

We lost a hell of a lot when Gini left. We desperately need that type of player again.

We did but Gini needed the legs and balance around him as well. He looked lost in 20/21 without Henderson in there and Fabinho at the back a lot and we were regularly overrun. As mentioned, Jones can do a similar job but Gini was always available and Jones isn't.

In 21/22 I wouldn't say we missed Gini given what we achieved, but we should have replaced him. When they were on the pitch Thiago and Jones offered a lot in his place (and Keita at key times), but didn't stay fit. Gini's durability was a key asset.

Last season was just a mess and we paid for failing to rebuild the midfield.

[Walshy nMe®]

Will there be anything around the ground before/after? We’ve been let down for tickets but still want to be close.

[Fromola]

When we won the league in 1979 we drew 10 and lost 7, Arsenal in 4th drew 16 and lost 8. This season we have drawn 10 and only lost 4 with only Brighton drawing more out of every team. We have drew twice as many as Arsenal.
Missing all those chances has cost us the league big style, having just one regular goal scorer would of clinched the league.
Starting slow, going behind early in too many games has worn us down and not been addressed and all this close passing when bringing the ball out from defence has also cost us.

That's where Brentford killed us. We lost two in that game (Mo and Jota) and whether through form or further injury haven't stepped up with many goals since returning. This is where the frustration with Nunez kicked in (and to an extent Diaz) as they had to pick up the slack from losing Mo and Jota and then from Mo's poor form, but they've continually fluffed chances.

Maybe Jaydon Danns could have been more of a wildcard if he was thrown in more.