I'm not exactly a fan of the Huyton & Bootle Collective, but I struggled to read through this bloated meandering OP. It doesn't help either that it seems you're constantly editing on the fly. Better to leave it untouched and revise in subsequent posts.
What's the difference between 'editing on the fly' and 'revising in subsequent posts'? You mean I should have left the OP alone and then added more thoughts in subsequent posts? Well, to be fair I did that, but it's also fair to say a lot of people inevitably ignore the 'susequent posts' and simply go by the OP. So I've tried to make it better than it was. Any help or advice on that front would be gratefully received - an offer I've put out a number of times now. If I can make the OP better, then I want to try - should I try and totally take out all reference to individuals?
Though honestly, what's really so wrong with using a 'character based' approach to discussing our on-pitch leadership, and what that should be? It's a little less dry than a de-personalised version, isn't it?
But the main problem I have with it is that it doesn't serve any purpose as such, essentially it's just a character-based thread looking at future captaincy/vice candidates clearly proposing Lucas. And in that respect, it could have been served much better with a much clearer to-the-point narrative.
Oh, and it's Captain Agger for me. See, it really can be that simple.
As for the purpose, if you follow your suggestion (or what I think it was) and look at subsequent posts then there are a lot of areas the debate could go and has gone that's much more interesting than just proposing a player for captain and leave it there. At least delve a bit more into why Agger's such a good leader for you. What's his leadership style? How does it differ from what we have? Why would that be an improvement?
There was an article on Kuyt roughly a year ago where he basically couldn't praise Gerrard enough for his effort with players off the pitch and his concern that they settled in. I can't seem to find the article but it was interesting hearing someone's perspective who is qualified to have a view on such things, for a change.
If you can find it it would be great to post a link to it, thanks.
That is surely impossible to assess. On the one hand you say he has an unreal ability to drag a team up but then question his ability to 'enable' lesser players.
Given that in the teams he has played in there have been numerous 'lesser' players wouldnt the fact the he has dragged them to success indicate that he has inspired them to achieve more than they should?
It wasn't that complicated. In a match, when Gerrard's on form, he is, or usually can be, a massively positive influence, dragging a whole team up to a higher level. Fine. What about when he isn't there? Or when he's off form? Does his forceful type of leadership help the other players then? I don't think so.
Compare that to, say, the environment achieved at Ajax in the 70's under Cruyff and Michels, where you get the feeling it was hugely mututally supportive on and off the pitch - players as well as the manager working to encourage and improve each other.
Gerrard isn't a bloody cartoon character is he, he doesn't have magical fairy dust that he can sprinkle over players to get them to maintain a certain level.
On the one hand you say he gets them to play well, surely after that it is up to the player himself to figure out if he wants to stay there or has the ability to do so.
If someone shouts at me then I might work harder, and thus get more done, for a bit. When the boss goes again I revert back to what I was doing. If he shows me ways I can work quicker, or if he gives me praise when he spots me doing something the right way, then I keep on doing things better even when he isn't around.
In a footballing sense if a captain understand's what the manager is trying to achieve and why he's trying to achieve it then he can transmit that to the other players, and thus help them improve whether he's there or not. If a captain leads only or mainly through his own personal performance/charisma then he can lift with his presence, but doesn't ultimately give the other players foundations to help build them into better players. Of course, that's mainly the managers job, but I do think the players have a big part to play too.
You criticise both players for yelling at players on the pitch, but then say of Reina when he does it ' loud, authoritative leadership that can involve giving other players both barrels is perfectly fine.
I criticise both players for being INCONSISTENT. For example for shouting at others for their own mistakes. I've seen Reina get angry at himself as well as other, I've never seen him shout at the defence when it's clearly his mistake.
Your OP was based purely on your feelings towards the three players mentioned and since posting it you have apparently backtracked, changed or amended your thoughts because others have disagreed with you. It hardly makes a reasoned debate possible does it?
No, I've changed and amended my thoughts to try and make it more about leadership, while still being honest about where the thread started.
If you wanted to have a discussion on whether Lucas would make a good Captain after Gerrard retires it could have been done without the personal comments you made regarding court cases, possible racial bias etc.
I never made comments regarding possible racial bias FFS. Anyway, if you actually read the OP again, those are exactly the kind of things I've been trying to take out of the OP, precisely because they don't really add to the argument and are only like to lead to defensive/aggressive comments from people.
Besides, I didn't want to just have a discussion on 'Lucas 4 captain'. I've written that post and stuck it in the Lucas thread a few times. It only takes a line to say I want him as captain, easy, done.
Successful or not, I'm trying to take that player comparison and turn it into a wider discussion, and it would be great if you could help me take it in that direction too.
P.S. Seeing as some of the key criticisms you make are actually stuff I've tried to improve in the OP if you could be bothered to read it again I'd really appreciate the feedback, though of course it was a long OP so I understand if you don't!