Author Topic: When football exectutives play football manager (Read 24328 times)

thegoodfella · « **Reply #80 on:** August 21, 2012, 01:58:15 pm »

Quote from: Johnnyboy1973 on August 21, 2012, 01:56:41 pm

Oh yeah, Purslow's a cocok.

What mythical creature is that?

Samee · « **Reply #81 on:** August 21, 2012, 01:58:22 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 01:56:15 pm

I know mate, and i'm not trying to instigate a Rafa debate. But what i'm trying to do is be objective. I'm Rafa's biggest fan. But if he hadn't have bought players like El Zhar, and the 22 others like him... he'd have that extra 2 mill or so to have bought the players you mention.

It is not as simple as that.

Chakan · « **Reply #82 on:** August 21, 2012, 01:58:44 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 01:56:15 pm

I know mate, and i'm not trying to instigate a Rafa debate. But what i'm trying to do is be objective. I'm Rafa's biggest fan. But if he hadn't have bought players like El Zhar, and the 22 others like him... he'd have that extra 2 mill or so to have bought the players you mention.

Managers make mistakes, Rafa made a few. But they weren't completely detrimental to LFC (like where we find ourselves currently), also don't think money was the problem with Silva and Alves it was mainly other people thinking they knew better. Like the c*nt purslow.

Crosby Nick · « **Reply #83 on:** August 21, 2012, 01:59:18 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 01:56:15 pm

I know mate, and i'm not trying to instigate a Rafa debate. But what i'm trying to do is be objective. I'm Rafa's biggest fan. But if he hadn't have bought players like El Zhar, and the 22 others like him... he'd have that extra 2 mill or so to have bought the players you mention.

And have a threadbare squad of 12 players? Those 23 were I assume signed over a 5-6 year period. It's not like he spent it all in one go. Anyway, that's all I'll say on it!

Guz-kop · « **Reply #84 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:01:11 pm »

Quote

He wasn't magnificently efficient when spending small amounts, which begs the question if he'd rolled some of those small amounts together he could have added to the first team pot, to buy players who could have made a difference.

I would argue his strengths were spending "small amounts" -

Reina, Crouch, Sissoko, Garcia, Aurelio, Benayoun all had a massive impact on our football. Those are just off the tip of my tongue I'm sure there's a few more. They were all cheap in relative terms compared to what United and Chelsea were spending on their first team. When we tried to spend big early on in the tenure he was blocked (Simao, Alves) by really optimistic negotations to put it lightly and towards the end had big egos like Purslow getting in the way. The biggest times we fell down in the transfer window were with Aquilani and the summer we bought Keane, Riera and Dossena and pissed £30m up the wall. We collectively fucked up that summer.

Also, when you're trying to challenge for domestic cups, the league and Europe which is what was EXPECTED of us, especially after winning the CL in 2005 you can't just roll together funds and expect to spend big on one player a summer. You NEED a squad and without the riches of the likes of Chelsea that means you simply have to a) Improve your chances of bringing in youth and b) Fill the squad with cheap recruits who could do a job. Both of which we did for five years. The real problem was expecting us to challenge on all those fronts with Hicks/Gillet's sell to buy policy and previously Moores/Parry et al not allowing us to spend more than £10m on a single player.

Ah. Fuck it. Not the post for it.

Gnurglan · « **Reply #85 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:01:31 pm »

The article is right - it's not Cole's fault. Can't blame him. Still every time this deal comes up, I get angry. It was such a circus act from the start. All show, no substance. Just pure incompetence in front of the cameras.

What the article doesn't say is that when we were about to sign Cole, we had Maxi, Kuyt and Jovanovic for the LM/RM roles. Plus Babel. The first three were all of similar age to Cole, only with better goals/game ratio. If there was one thing the club didn't need at the time, it was another ~30-year old LM/RM. We needed younger blood, or there was no reason to sign a wide midfielder. Now add that Hodgson wasn't aware of the transfer. Add that we had little funds to play with. We made all the basic errors we could make. Deliberately. Almost as if we were determined to pay Cole 18M to do nothing. There was NO reasonable justification for the signing of Joe Cole. It's typical for how extremely generous we have been with contracts. It's the kind of deal that made me think that Purslow's and Hodgson's real intent was to wreck the club. Yes, it's that bad.

ScouseinDK · « **Reply #86 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:02:17 pm »

How much will it cost to get him off the books though? It may mean us not making further signings, if we´ll have to make a deal for several million to get him out of the last 2 years of his contract. Of course, I think in the medium and long term, getting him off the books and reducing the wage bill would be worth it.

koptommy93 · « **Reply #87 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:02:40 pm »

I was excited by Cole when he came but it's turned into a terrible deal for us. I do think Cole wants to do well for us and turn it around , you could see that after he picked up the injury on saturday. I just don't think he has it in him anymore. His fitness is so bad it's almost embarrassing to the extent that he's blowing out of his arse after about five minutes. He offers us nothing on the pitch and is a worrying drain on our finances. I can't see how anyone else would want to take him on.

OneTouchFooty · « **Reply #88 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:03:10 pm »

What a cock Purslow was undermining Rafa like that, no wonder he got the boot never stood a chance with some of the poison in the boardroom. Not getting into a Rafa debate though, I loved the bloke and it's sad to see how we've fallen. You'd think he was Gary Megson though the way some were made up when he went. Twats.

Red Genius · « **Reply #89 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:04:20 pm »

Quote from: Crosby Nick on August 21, 2012, 01:59:18 pm

And have a threadbare squad of 12 players? Those 23 were I assume signed over a 5-6 year period. It's not like he spent it all in one go. Anyway, that's all I'll say on it!

We had a squad of over 60 at one point, so i don't think that's fair.

To those who've responded above, I'd want Rafa still here today... i'm just trying to explain, that he wasn't perfect.

Those who can't accept he made some mistakes, are in my opinion still wearing their 'Rafa tinted goggles'

All you have to do, is read my history and you'll recognise the high regard i hold him in, never wanted him to leave, believed in his project. But i'm not blinded to some small criticism's that can aimed at him.

007.lankyguy · « **Reply #90 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:05:10 pm »

I recently had an argument on twitter with someone about how much blame Rafa should have for being in the position we're in now. He argued it was 80% owners, 20% Rafa. I argued that Rafa deserved no blame at all. Why? Well he of course made mistakes but the fact was that he was in a situation where he had to be no less than perfect. Every manager makes mistakes, Rafa's no different. But he was stuck without money, without players and with board, media, fans and even some players wanting him gone. I don't know how many of you could cope if you had a similar situation in your job. He was put in an impossible situation yet received all the blame. Rafa has nothing to do with the fact that we're as low as we are now. That's down to H + G and Purslow.

Chakan · « **Reply #91 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:05:55 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 02:04:20 pm

We had a squad of over 60 at one point, so i don't think that's fair.

To those who've responded above, I'd want Rafa still here today... i'm just trying to explain, that he wasn't perfect.

Understood mate really, no manager is perfect. But he was damn near close to being exactly what we needed at the time and we got rid of him, and people to this day still feel it was the right move. Does my head in.

Red Genius · « **Reply #92 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:07:49 pm »

Quote from: Chakan on August 21, 2012, 02:05:55 pm

Understood mate really, no manager is perfect. But he was damn near close to being exactly what we needed at the time and we got rid of him, and people to this day still feel it was the right move. Does my head in.

Totally agree fella, EVERY manager makes mistakes, Rafa got most decisions right, made a force both domestically and on the continent. He'd always have my backing.

blacksun · « **Reply #93 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:09:26 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 01:56:15 pm

I know mate, and i'm not trying to instigate a Rafa debate. But what i'm trying to do is be objective. I'm Rafa's biggest fan. But if he hadn't have bought players like El Zhar, and the 22 others like him... he'd have that extra 2 mill or so to have bought the players you mention.

Whilst I know the point you are trying to make, you have to realise that for that idea to work it would have taken 3 or 4 years for the money to add up to an amount that would have bought one of the decent players Rafa wanted, he wouldn't have been able to buy the josemi's, kronkamp's, Nunez's, El Zhar's etc and despite them not being resounding successes they were involved in some way or other in the run to the Istanbul, Cardiff and Athens cup finals which I'm pretty sure nobody would change (other than the Athens result obviously).

Red Genius · « **Reply #94 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:11:11 pm »

Quote from: Samee on August 21, 2012, 01:58:22 pm

It is not as simple as that.

It really is mate.

Rafa got the majority of his signings bang on, but spend a small fortune on young players who never made the grade.

The money he invested in that process, COULD have been contributed to the first team.

We were a *whiff* away from winning the league under him, we just needed that little bit more, allocated right - we could have a Simao or an Alves at the expense of an El Zhar and co.

gorgepir · « **Reply #95 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:13:47 pm »

I really can't imagine what Rafa would have done with the money available for our managers in these two seasons.

Anyway should I be removing the text now since it is behind the paywall? Or can I keep it? Can a mod help with this?

RedMichelFerri · « **Reply #96 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:14:05 pm »

Quote from: Chakan on August 21, 2012, 01:58:44 pm

Managers make mistakes, Rafa made a few. But they weren't completely detrimental to LFC (like where we find ourselves currently), also don't think money was the problem with Silva and Alves it was mainly other people thinking they knew better. Like the c*nt purslow.

This Rafa mistake stuff started with my post. What I meant to say was that if people believed (not me) he made mistake after 2009-10 season, he didn't got any chance to correct them. The bloke gave us amazing games/success over the years and deserved at least a single chance to change the things which led to less expected 2010 season. But he never got that chance which he deserved.
Even though that was biggest mistake the club made (sacking rafa and appointing Hodgson), I was bit happy for Rafa since clearly that all fighting was taking the toll on the guy.

Red Genius · « **Reply #97 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:14:33 pm »

Quote from: blacksun on August 21, 2012, 02:09:26 pm

Whilst I know the point you are trying to make, you have to realise that for that idea to work it would have taken 3 or 4 years for the money to add up to an amount that would have bought one of the decent players Rafa wanted, he wouldn't have been able to buy the josemi's, kronkamp's, Nunez's, El Zhar's etc and despite them not being resounding successes they were involved in some way or other in the run to the Istanbul, Cardiff and Athens cup finals which I'm pretty sure nobody would change (other than the Athens result obviously).

You say that suggesting i'm not a staunch Rafa'ite'

I love the bloke. But to suggest he made no wrong decisions is not accurate. I'm not focusing in the first team signings, rather the quantity of smaller fee's he spent on attempting to bring young players into the squad.

Which if he'd not done, he'd have that extra £2m or so that Parry was not committing himself to for players like Simao and Alves.

The guy is a fucking legend in my opinion, but i can't stress enough, he did make mistakes, like any manager.

thegoodfella · « **Reply #98 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:15:21 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 02:11:11 pm

we could have a Simao or an Alves at the expense of an El Zhar and co.

or Quaresma

No mate, we probably couldn't, but I will agree to disagree on matters of past now.

Brentieke · « **Reply #99 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:15:22 pm »

Quote from: scatman on August 21, 2012, 01:33:35 pm

I remember being shouted down a lot when I said both were shit signings. Really pulled the wool over the eyes of a large number of RAWKites and fans in general.

We could sign Kevin Kilbane and some people would be doing cartwheels.

Swright90 · « **Reply #100 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:15:49 pm »

I'm not doubting that Purslow is a full on prick, but some people need to remember exactly how happy you were when Joe Cole signed. It was a signing made to win over the fans and up until the 20th minute in the Arsenal match it was working a treat.

kcbworth · « **Reply #101 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:16:51 pm »

Fuck me great article

Red Genius · « **Reply #102 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:18:15 pm »

Quote from: thegoodfella on August 21, 2012, 02:15:21 pm

or Quaresma

No mate, we probably couldn't, but I will agree to disagree on matters of past now.

Opportunity cost mate, monies we had went elsewhere - and when we needed a little more, the club couldn't provide it.

So i stand by my opinion, of monies wasted on young players (23 in total) that if pulled back slightly could have provided the small sums required to close the deals above.

Rafa was a genius and a legend, he should still be here today, but not perfect.

Swright90 · « **Reply #103 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:21:19 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 02:18:15 pm

Opportunity cost mate, monies we had went elsewhere - and when we needed a little more, the club couldn't provide it.

So i stand by my opinion, of monies wasted on young players (23 in total) that if pulled back slightly could have provided the small sums required to close the deals above.

Rafa was a genius and a legend, he should still be here today, but not perfect.

Even though they never made the first team, a lot of those players were sold on for a profit.

RedRush · « **Reply #104 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:22:04 pm »

Quote from: kcbworth on August 21, 2012, 02:16:51 pm

Fuck me great article

Tip of the iceberg methinks.

Red Genius · « **Reply #105 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:26:32 pm »

Quote from: Swright90 on August 21, 2012, 02:21:19 pm

Even though they never made the first team, a lot of those players were sold on for a profit.

Which Purslow would have loved, being a b(w)anker 'n all.

But didn't really help the football on the pitch, which at the end of the day, mattered.

helmboy_nige · « **Reply #106 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:26:54 pm »

After reading through the wonderful "how did I become a Liverpool fan" thread, this one has brought me back down to earth and made me miserable. The wastefulness of the club is simply shocking. What opposition clubs must think when we come knocking. Their eyes must turn into dollar signs.

Samee · « **Reply #107 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:36:05 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 02:11:11 pm

It really is mate.

Rafa got the majority of his signings bang on, but spend a small fortune on young players who never made the grade.

The money he invested in that process, COULD have been contributed to the first team.

We were a *whiff* away from winning the league under him, we just needed that little bit more, allocated right - we could have a Simao or an Alves at the expense of an El Zhar and co.

And did he sign all those fringe players at the same time? Did he have a set budget that he was dipping into? If he saved money, was he going to be allowed to spend it all on one pla-- ah forget it. Your mind's in the right place.

blacksun · « **Reply #108 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:41:12 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 02:14:33 pm

You say that suggesting i'm not a staunch Rafa'ite'

I love the bloke. But to suggest he made no wrong decisions is not accurate. I'm not focusing in the first team signings, rather the quantity of smaller fee's he spent on attempting to bring young players into the squad.

Which if he'd not done, he'd have that extra £2m or so that Parry was not committing himself to for players like Simao and Alves.

The guy is a fucking legend in my opinion, but i can't stress enough, he did make mistakes, like any manager.

I don't doubt your appreciation for our best manager in 20 years, to be honest I think most sensible fans know he was and I concur he is only human and made mistakes , I know he made me shake my head at some decisions too. I don't massively disagree with your sentiments about the younger players but Rafa wanted to build a dynasty not just a decent 3-4 years (like Mourinho would) and that meant investing in youth to bring through and while it wasn't massively successful it did provide us with Insua, Shelvey, Sterling, Suso and a few others so I don't think it was a bad strategy for the long term.

Skidder. · « **Reply #109 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:41:27 pm »

The rhetoric in that article is fantastic.

Cole, after pulling his hamstring, now cannot be sold before the transfer window.

Knowing he would have to take a pay cut if he was to leave.

And then piling an insane amount of moral praise onto him.

Excellent piece of writing.

Red Genius · « **Reply #110 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:42:58 pm »

Quote from: Samee on August 21, 2012, 02:36:05 pm

And did he sign all those fringe players at the same time? Did he have a set budget that he was dipping into? If he saved money, was he going to be allowed to spend it all on one pla-- ah forget it. Your mind's in the right place.

Exactly fella, there are those who believe he did *nothing* wrong, then you get people like myself who love him to bits, never wanted him to leave, still wish he was here till this day, but accept he made some mistakes.

As i've said before, nobody is perfect.

Red Genius · « **Reply #111 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:45:35 pm »

Quote from: blacksun on August 21, 2012, 02:41:12 pm

I don't doubt your appreciation for our best manager in 20 years, to be honest I think most sensible fans know he was and I concur he is only human and made mistakes , I know he made me shake my head at some decisions too. I don't massively disagree with your sentiments about the younger players but Rafa wanted to build a dynasty not just a decent 3-4 years (like Mourinho would) and that meant investing in youth to bring through and while it wasn't massively successful it did provide us with Insua, Shelvey, Sterling, Suso and a few others so I don't think it was a bad strategy for the long term.

It wasn't... it was a smart decision... however the money he used to bring in those youngsters, got taken away from our first team.

You mentioned 4 players there above, out of 23 he brought in. That's not a successful ratio by any means.

But fuck it, i can't argue against Rafa, because i support him 100%.

Last post on this issue.

Hazell · « **Reply #112 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:45:51 pm »

Quote from: Fat Scouser on August 21, 2012, 01:37:48 pm

I'm not picking on you mate, but what mistakes where they? I honestly didn't see any,

Mainly the transfers of Keane (which he rectified in January and who he wouldn't have bought if he knew Barry wasn't coming) and Babel who didn't fully develop into the player he could have been. I don't agree with the assertion that those he bought for small fees were failures - they're the kind that are low risk and can be moved on quickly, not to mention that he generally tried to up grade on those positions given the financial constraints he had as well as it not being as simple as saving that money to buy Simao/Alves or whoever. Heck not even Aquilani who many consider a waste, given he used him in 09/10 and then it was out of his hands how he was treated after that is really one. But so what? Every single manager has made a mistake in the transfer market, it's what happens in football. Unfortunately it seems as though Rafa's get highlighted more than others which is a shame.

And the way the older fans talk about Shankly and Paisley is how I feel about Rafa - it's a shame he never got to naturally finish what he started. But that was due to the club being fucked since 2007, and as the OP shows, it's effects still being felt today.

MatthewRedBlood · « **Reply #113 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:47:48 pm »

I'm gathering from the article then, Purslow went above the manager to sign a footballer. I've never really understood this, and it's happening today to an extent with Ian Ayre if what i read is believed.

I ask, why qualifies these executives to make footballing decisions, and why would an owner give the responsibility of player recruitment to a suit, as opposed to an extremely experienced football man, in our manager?

Of course, it does go both ways, in the fact that had Cole become an integral part of the team, with a very good contribution, the discussion about his contract wouldn't be happening.

Footballing decisions should be made by those qualified to make them. I don't really know what Ian Ayre's job title is, and i don't know what he's in charge of, but if he's not qualified to be making decisions about potential targets, i hope to God he isn't doing. As far as i'm concerned our manager should be identifying the players, telling staff to go and make the deal happen (but only for the price the manager feels necessary if he's working from a budget) and the owners should just trust the managers judgement and make the money available. If it goes wrong, then so be it. I don't want to be in a situation like Chelsea where the manager is literally a coach, and the owner decides who's being bought, which is what seemingly happened with Cole.

I'd happily see Joe leave on a free contact just to see his wages off the bill.

The manager needs to have the full backing of the owners in the market with full control as far as i'm concerned, otherwise you have 5 people, all signing off a different hymn sheet and the whole thing turns sour. One thing we can take from this is experience. Hopefully our owners now, and our manager are aware of this whole charade, and want to look for a solution to make sure nothing similar happens in the near future.

blacksun · « **Reply #114 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:50:23 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 02:45:35 pm

It wasn't... it was a smart decision... however the money he used to bring in those youngsters, got taken away from our first team.

You mentioned 4 players there above, out of 23 he brought in. That's not a successful ratio by any means.

But fuck it, i can't argue against Rafa, because i support him 100%.

Last post on this issue.

I know you don't want to continue the debate any further which I respect but just out of curiosity could u give me the list of the 23 (either here or in a PM)

Matt8Pie · « **Reply #115 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:53:31 pm »

Still can't believe people gave him praise for this too:

He's a c*nt.

Skidder. · « **Reply #116 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:54:55 pm »

"[Lionel] Messi can do some amazing things, but anything he can do Joe can do as well, if not better. He used to shock us in training by doing footy tricks with a golf ball that most players can't even do with a football. I really fancy Joe for the [player of the year] award this season."

danielfonseca · « **Reply #117 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:55:13 pm »

Quote from: Red Genius on August 21, 2012, 01:43:29 pm

Rafa had signed 23 players at a cost of £3m or less, who hardly any of whom had succeeded at the club.

Who are these players mate, enlighten us, your talking porkies....

rafa had an outstanding transfer record according to what i calaculate, Skrtel, agger, torres, Mascheran, garcia, alonso, reina,

name me another manager without wenger with those successes at those prices.

please give us the names of the 23 players..we wait for your feedback

Red Genius · « **Reply #118 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:57:31 pm »

Quote from: blacksun on August 21, 2012, 02:50:23 pm

I know you don't want to continue the debate any further which I respect but just out of curiosity could u give me the list of the 23 (either here or in a PM)

Taken from the book "Red Men" by John Williams. Page 417,

paisley84 · « **Reply #119 on:** August 21, 2012, 02:58:58 pm »

im not having joe cole the victim, not even prefaced with 'in some ways'. for me the suggestion that any one of us would have made these decisions over this length of time is garbage. there are plenty of players who make plenty of financial sacrifices to play, or at least would have shown one ounce of professional pride. and if any one of us would have taken that contract, then any one of us should be absolutely astonished that having signed it in one of the darkest most intellectually bankrupt chapters in the clubs history, having offered absolutely nothing, truly absolutely zero value for this club in return, having literally been paid to play elsewhere, having refused to take a pay cut anywhere on something even notionally inline with our ability and worth, having watched successive managers and fans alike make it plain that this was the only concievable option.. we should be absolutely astonished to find that we were still lauded going into our 3rd season, 3 games old and injured twice, for doing it all with a smile on our face, for befriending the catering staff. no this contract and others like it, continue to strangle the club and its future progress. if this was any other industry hed of voided his contract well over 2 years ago, but this is football its a circus and it is All take. plenty of liverpool supporters have stood by and watched people less qualified to make decisions bumble around making utterly catastrophic decisons one after another, plenty of people predicted this mess today, right down to its finest details, predicted it faught aginst it and lost to a tidal wave of ignorance. and yet joe cole is not a symtom of it, hes a victim?? we dont even allow ourselves to be angry at this one, joe cole who took tens of millions out of the club, truly for nothing, but did it all with a smile on his face. its just the way the world is?! nah wrong no more becomes right in numbers, hes still here, he is still personally refusing to change this, if he had one ounce of respect for the people who are still telling themselves to 'respect a liverpool player', for the people paying it, with what hes contributed that contract should weigh on him every single day, every single week, just like it weighs on us, me personally if i had to run out infront of 42,000 of those people every other week id want to be free of it too, id be astonished to find out that over 2 years down the line they actually didnt care.