Topic: Are we punching above our weight?

[SteveLFC]

Been a fan since 1977 and I don't really recall a season that has felt so weird. The first half of the season was generally breathtaking at times and promised great things. The second half has seen us dragging our feet to the finish line. Cliche or not, the premier league season is a marathon but we have treated it as a 100 metre sprint it seems.

Maybe I am being unfair and of course injuries and lack of squad depth have had a big impact on the season as a whole but it does beg the question.. Are we punching above our weight with our points tally and reasonably good league position or are we underachieving?

My personal opinion is we are punching above our weight based on injuries to key players and squad depth and size. The glass is very much half full and the challenge for next season is how we fill the glass completely and with what?

[Geezer08]

I honestly think at the moment with our current squad we have a top 6 team, but with patience and faith Klopp will bring us back to regularly competing for the title.

It just requires time and solid consistent investment from FSG to rebalance and improve our squad.

[Zlen]

I think we've been underperforming consistently (on the pitch and in the transfer market) for years and have been accepting less and less as normal with each passing season - this one included.

[RK7]

Not at all, we've underperformed more often than not. Expectations have been lowered each season and we as a fan base make excuses for our failings.

[Coolie High]

Nope we're punching below, Spurs are an example of a club punching above their weight not us, we just have excuses.

[Cpt_Reina]

Every club gets injuries, the big ones can deal with it when they do.

We're very much punching our weight, this is about where we'd expect to be, anywhere between 7th and 4th is par for this club.

[killer-heels]

Yes, because we deliberately chose to handicap ourselves.

[Carra-ton]

We lack the mentality to win, and to handle pressure. When the crowd gets restless, there aren't enough big characters to drag the team through a 25minute pressure period in a tough game.
We lack highest quality players but still have decent quality, but our organization leaves a lot to be desired. Our defending from corners and free kicks is Sunday league stuff.
We are an anomaly, where our very best attacking play is better than the best in the league, but the other parts of the game including mentality is just shoddy.

[Chris~]

League wise this is where we should expect to be at every season.  Sometimes higher, sometimes lower but on course for 70-75 points is what we should be getting. The last few years have mostly been way off that.

[-HH-]

Think we are roughly where we would expect. Our first XI is good enough to challenge for the title. That is:

Mignolet

Clyne
Matip
Lovren
Milner

Henderson
Wijnaldum
Lallana

Mane
Firmino
Coutinho

How rare it has been to see that XI out there is unusual. Yes all teams get injuries but we have had particularly bad luck considering how few games we've had.

The challenge now is to ensure the players waiting behind this lot are truly up to scratch, that they fit the manager's philosophy and then we can think about pushing further up the league. Tricky for Klopp who obviously would like opportunities to blood the youngsters in the first team.

[Pistolero]

Against top opposition we punch like Tommy Hearns....

against relegation fodder we're more Tommy Steele....

[JackWard33]

Just try and objectively assess the squads the managers involved are picking from.
If people look at it without lfc tinted glasses us finishing top 4 with this squad would be an achievement
In terms of the squad (first team is closer) we might be 6th best
How we got here is a separate conversation - but in terms of the squad we're punching a bit so far this season yes

[koptommy93]

Given the squad i'd say yes if we manage to make top 4 but that's only because we chose not to strengthen and left ourselves with pathetically few options.

[mainone]

Not even jabbing yesterday.

[Pistolero]

We've convinced ourselves that not spending money in some way makes us better as we're not 'buying success'. It's madness.

Indeed.

[Gerry Attrick]

With this squad we're probably punching above our weight, but relative to what we could be and we were, we're definitely not.

[tubby]

Think we're doing as expected, not good enough to challenge for the title but still have enough quality to get in the mix for the CL places.  Could potentially finish anywhere from 6th to 3rd with the squad as it is.

[Red in Korea]

If we finish top 4, you could say we are punching above our weight, especially in light of the number of key injuries we've had. If we finish just outside the top 4, we are "par" for the financial muscle that we have compared to the clubs around us (wasn't it Rodgers who got pilloried for saying that?)

Problem is that we are Liverpool and we are expected to punch above our weight in terms of our finances, because we have our history, the best fans, a club spirit far beyond what any other club can imagine, and these things count for something real.

Add to that the fact that we have a manager that stands in line with our great club traditions, and there is a certain hope that we can punch well above our weight in years to come. It is sometimes a slow and painful process to get there, but we are headed in the right direction and there is every reason to be optimistic.

[sms1986]

Yes, because we deliberately chose to handicap ourselves.

Wouldn't we then be punching below our weight?

[killer-heels]

Wouldn't we then be punching below our weight?

Doh!

[Titi Camara]

------------------------------------Mignolet-----------------------------------------
-------------------------------------Karius------------------------------------------

Clyne--------------------Matip--------------------Lovren--------------------Milner
TAA---------------------Gomez-------------------Klavan-------------------Moreno

------------------------------------Henderson
---------------------------------------Lucas

------------------------Lallana---------------------Wijnaldum
-------------------------Grujic-------------------------Can

---------------Mane------------------Firmino-------------------Coutinho
--------------Missing------------------Origi----------------------Missing

Other players used: Stewart, Ejaria, Woodburn, Sturridge,

On the strength of that squad I'd say we're punching above our weight. Whether we should have gone into this season with a squad so bare is another issue entirely. Beyond the starting 11, which is right up there with the best, we are so lacking it's crackers.

[IgorBobbins]

The thing that troubles me is this - when other top clubs have bad seasons, or bad periods within a season, there's outcry amongst fans which is reflected in the media too.  E.g. Wenger and Arsenal - they've "only" finished in the top 4 and "only" won 2 FA cups in the past few seasons.  But that's not good enough, and nor should it.  Ditto Utd - they've won trophies recently but everyone says they need to spend another £200m to get them to where they should be.  But where has the outcry been during the last few years when Liverpool have been finishing 6th-8th (apart from one season)? Both from fans and the media?  Why is it good enough for us, but not for other top teams? I'm not saying there should be fan protests or idiots on Fan TV slagging off the manager and players after every poor result, but even the media don't react with much surprise or critical coverage when we lose and finish outside the top 4/6.

There seems to be an acceptance that this is where we are - not a huge urgency or determination to fix things so it doesn't happen again.  If Arsenal/Spurs/City/Utd/Chelsea finished midtable and trophyless for one season, let alone two/three/four, there would be huge ramifications and changes would be demanded, be it managerial (please note that I'm NOT in any way questioning Klopp's position), investment in players, or club structure.

Is it just me who feels this way? Am I talking shite?  (I probably haven't articulated myself very well). It's just something I've thought about for a while, that until this apparent lack of ambition changes, the acceptance of mediocrity will continue.  Aim for first place and trophies, and anything else should be deemed a failure and require change!

[Jookie]

In terms of this season, the next 4 games will dictate how the season is viewed. If we get Top 4 then it’s been a good season. If we fail to get Top 4 then it can’t be dressed any other way than a disappointment. That’s more a reflection of the league positions we’ve occupied during this season rather than the squad strength or available resources.

What is obvious is that we’ve significantly under achieved from 2010 onwards. There’s multitude of factors associated with this. There’s a multitude if people that can be blamed. I don’t want to go into that particularly. It’s more to highlight that Klopp has inherited a club, a squad and a fanbase that has seen regular under performance for the vast majority of the 6 seasons before he joined the club. He’s got a massive job on his hands. I’m not sure everyone is really seeing how hard his job is to get us Top 4 on a regular basis. Never mind competing for the title regularly.

Let’s say for example, this season we get 73 points but come 5th. It’ll be massively disappointing. However, we’d be moving in the right direction. It would build on reaching 2 cup finals last season and a definite improvement in the style of football. There been definite things to improve on but we’d have a much better base to build from.

Reading some of the comments in this thread and some of the things I heard at the game I get a sense that there’s already murmurings of discontent. An undercurrent of people writing this season off as a failure or "punching below our weight". I can’t read that anything other than criticism of the manager. Now I’m not saying people want him sacked. Given Klopp’s likeable personalty I’m sure people will even deflect blame onto others. My concern is that we are moving in the right direction but some people can’t see that. When there’s murmuring of discontent at the end of 1 season, you are a poor start of the season away from things getting ugly quickly.

I’ve seen the fans of this club turn on a great manager before. I’ve seen the fans of this club turn on manger who won us our 5th European Cup. I basically don’t trust a lot of our fanbase to know their arse from their elbow when it comes to backing a manager or actually seeing what’s best for the club. Klopp is the best manager we’ve had since Rafa and I’m massively concerned with how people are viewing our season now. Really hope we can get 9-12 points over the next 4 games. Get Top4 and keep the wolves from the door for another season.

[Stubbins]

This is absolutely it. Being average is fairly normal for us now. Results like yesterday are the norm, they aren't unusual in the slightest. We went into this season with a positive net spend while our biggest rivals were absolutely breaking the bank [CL/european football or not]. We've convinced ourselves that not spending money in some way makes us better as we're not 'buying success'. It's madness.

If we do manage to scrape into the top 4 this year [and it's now absolutely in the balance] it's because Klopp has managed to pull a rabbit out of a hat. The noises already circulating about 'not getting targets if we miss out on the CL' are so typical of our place amongst the average of the league now. We could act like the massive club we are, or we could try and do it the 'clever' way. Look where that's got us so far. We could have won the fucking league this season if we bothered our arses to invest in people in January, now we're sweating on 4th place and acting like it's an achievement. Mediocre has become the norm. Something needs to change.

Well put. 'Mediocre has become the norm' Could be our strap line

[Jookie]

------------------------------------Mignolet-----------------------------------------
-------------------------------------Karius------------------------------------------

Clyne--------------------Matip--------------------Lovren--------------------Milner
TAA---------------------Gomez-------------------Klavan-------------------Moreno

------------------------------------Henderson
---------------------------------------Lucas

------------------------Lallana---------------------Wijnaldum
-------------------------Grujic-------------------------Can

---------------Mane------------------Firmino-------------------Coutinho
--------------Missing------------------Origi----------------------Missing

Other players used: Stewart, Ejaria, Woodburn, Sturridge,

On the strength of that squad I'd say we're punching above our weight. Whether we should have gone into this season with a squad so bare is another issue entirely. Beyond the starting 11, which is right up there with the best, we are so lacking it's crackers.

When the season started, those" missing" positions upfront were occupied by Ings and Sturridge. You can argue about the balance and suitability but we went into the season with 6 senior players to fill those front 3 positions. We also had Ojo and Woodburn.

By the way you've included Grujic in the depth and he's started 2 league cup games for us. Sturridge has played in over 20 games this season. Why not include him in your depth chart?

I'm not saying the balance of the squad is right, etc but the way you've represented the squad depth is a bit snide.

[Cliff Bastin]

Klopp is getting the absolute best out of your squad. The problem is it is just full of average players who wouldn't look out of place playing for 8th or 9th place teams in the league. I read some thinking Klopp decided to not invest in your squad but why would he do that? Surely a manager of his ability could see how weak the squad is.

FSG just aren't interested in investing properly in Liverpool to take you to the next level and that will become abundantly clear in time. Klopp will probably end up getting the full brunt of the criticism in 12 months time when things stay as they are instead of the owners who look like they don't give a shit.

I believe Liverpool are only in the top 4 currently because of Klopp but risk losing out because of the owners.

[Midget]

There's two answers to this I think as displayed by the replies already. As a squad yes we are punching above our weight, but as a club, in terms of ambition and our financial strength we are underachieving. Only reason we could be said to be punching above our weight is because our squad shouldn't be good enough for top 4, but that's only because we have been so woefully mismanaged off the pitch. There's two ways to succeed above expectations I think. The other is spending big, like City and Chelsea have established themselves, and the other is being smart, like Juventus and Atletico have sustained their success for example. Nothing tells me we have the football minds, or the vision, in the club to build our team in the smart way. This has been FSG's decade and we have made the top European competition once during it, whilst changing managers three times and chopping and changing the structure and personnel backing them. I see no clear vision or the required level of ambition needed to take us forward. We should be aiming to be in the European elite where we belong and everything we do should be subordinated to that goal. If that's where we see ourselves as a club then we are underachieving, if we see ourselves as a profitable business then we are on the course.

[Giono]

Nope we're punching below, Spurs are an example of a club punching above their weight not us, we just have excuses.

Good point, but not sure if I agree 100%. Spurs have had the same manager with a clear tactical plan for several seasons. His plans have matured and he has depth, real depth in the squad. That is, he has replacement players that fit his tactics. Just look at his selection of fullbacks at his disposal.

Overall, Spurs have been perennial under-performers. They started to show some real promise under Jol and then under Redknapp. They really haven't done much with what they had. Yes they lost Bale, but they didn't have him at his peak for very long and they profited healthily from his sale. So relative to the last 20 years they are actually getting some results. But they were not able to finish the season well last season when the league was up for grabs. And they lost in the FA Cup semi on the weekend, so no silverware yet. If they win the league this season, then maybe they are over-performing.

Klopp is just ending his first full season. He has been experimenting with Milner at fullback, Henderson as a sort of DM, Can as an attacking mid, Lucas as a central defender. Yet we are still challenging for 3rd place.  I don't think Klopp was planning to challenge for the league this season with those square pegs in round holes. Yet we were first at Christmas and we are unbeaten against the top 6 this season. We are over-performing for this stage in Klopp's development plan.

[edeyj]

As fans, we certainly punch below our weight in terms of patience.

Klopp called it right as being a long term project. We won't become world beaters overnight. But we are good enough (just) for top 4.

As far as FSG goes, there are plenty that criticise without knowing what really happens behind the scenes.

[Upinsmoke]

No

Infact i'd argue this season has been the truest reflection in recent memory of a squad of players who really do reflect our league position, our results and performances and easily linked to the availability of players.

We are 2 or 3 players short in terms of first 11 and about 3 or 4 short of options on the bench to sufficiently change things and remain at a high level.

I imagine if we could see a show of hands we'd get next to fuck all for any confidence in player A replacing player B and still remaining competitive in that area. Aside from Mignolet and Karius who for me are similar ability wise (that's not to say Loris won't improve, he will) and Can playing in that deep role in the absence of Henderson (and that's a big doubt because he can take weeks to find any form) I can honestly say there is not another player who can sufficiently replace any other of our first 11.


We were sensational from August to the new year with an odd blip, we've stumbled since with the odd good performance (Spurs) and the common theme is player availability.

It's not just about injuries or fatigue either, players go through different kinds of form and we have to keep playing players who aren't playing great because we have no other option.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

In answer to the title question - 

No we're not. Dissapointing season for me, far too many losses/draws vs bottom half teams.

[Day1983]

This is absolutely it. Being average is fairly normal for us now. Results like yesterday are the norm, they aren't unusual in the slightest. We went into this season with a positive net spend while our biggest rivals were absolutely breaking the bank [CL/european football or not]. We've convinced ourselves that not spending money in some way makes us better as we're not 'buying success'. It's madness.

If we do manage to scrape into the top 4 this year [and it's now absolutely in the balance] it's because Klopp has managed to pull a rabbit out of a hat. The noises already circulating about 'not getting targets if we miss out on the CL' are so typical of our place amongst the average of the league now. We could act like the massive club we are, or we could try and do it the 'clever' way. Look where that's got us so far. We could have won the fucking league this season if we bothered our arses to invest in people in January, now we're sweating on 4th place and acting like it's an achievement. Mediocre has become the norm. Something needs to change.

Well put mate. Exactly my feelings. I'm used to us being average now. The thing is there is stride and proven method to get to the top and stay there. It's the modern way and people may not like it but theres no secret.

[Chief Brody]

In term of squad depth and outlay. Yes. Definitely.

In terms of where we could potentially be, probably not.


It would be no mean feat to finish top 4, the competition is ferocious and if we do someone that has spent vast sums are going to miss out.

Factor in this being klopps first season and you could argue we are punching a pice our weight.

[jillcwhomever]

In terms of this season, the next 4 games will dictate how the season is viewed. If we get Top 4 then it’s been a good season. If we fail to get Top 4 then it can’t be dressed any other way than a disappointment. That’s more a reflection of the league positions we’ve occupied during this season rather than the squad strength or available resources.

What is obvious is that we’ve significantly under achieved from 2010 onwards. There’s multitude of factors associated with this. There’s a multitude if people that can be blamed. I don’t want to go into that particularly. It’s more to highlight that Klopp has inherited a club, a squad and a fanbase that has seen regular under performance for the vast majority of the 6 seasons before he joined the club. He’s got a massive job on his hands. I’m not sure everyone is really seeing how hard his job is to get us Top 4 on a regular basis. Never mind competing for the title regularly.

Let’s say for example, this season we get 73 points but come 5th. It’ll be massively disappointing. However, we’d be moving in the right direction. It would build on reaching 2 cup finals last season and a definite improvement in the style of football. There been definite things to improve on but we’d have a much better base to build from.

Reading some of the comments in this thread and some of the things I heard at the game I get a sense that there’s already murmurings of discontent. An undercurrent of people writing this season off as a failure or "punching below our weight". I can’t read that anything other than criticism of the manager. Now I’m not saying people want him sacked. Given Klopp’s likeable personalty I’m sure people will even deflect blame onto others. My concern is that we are moving in the right direction but some people can’t see that. When there’s murmuring of discontent at the end of 1 season, you are a poor start of the season away from things getting ugly quickly.

I’ve seen the fans of this club turn on a great manager before. I’ve seen the fans of this club turn on manger who won us our 5th European Cup. I basically don’t trust a lot of our fanbase to know their arse from their elbow when it comes to backing a manager or actually seeing what’s best for the club. Klopp is the best manager we’ve had since Rafa and I’m massively concerned with how people are viewing our season now. Really hope we can get 9-12 points over the next 4 games. Get Top4 and keep the wolves from the door for another season.

People are already turning on the manager someone on here yesterday, also like you I've heard mumblings as well. It's never going to change sadly. There is a proportion of our fan base who are never far from reacting, whenever we have to face a setback. I just can't even begin to imagine what its going to be like when we are in a title race, and have to deal with various ups and downs that usually happen with such challenges. You only have to come on here after a loss to know what happens.

What I will say while the manager has made mistakes this year, he has also had this team at the top of the table, more goals scored than last season, and we're on course for a better total than last season. If that is not improvement I don't know what is. We know were our faults lie, and that has to be confronted in the summer and hopefully will be. I am confident we will get a further improvements next season.

Its hard to say whether we're punching above our weight or not, because of the mistake with not getting enough players. But for now I will settle for the said improvements and hopefully sneaking into the top four, which has still not been decided.

[Medellin]

Nope.
The league table doesn't lie,we are 3rd because we deserve to be there regardless of how strong or weak we think our squad is.

[Nick110581]

Not at all, we've underperformed more often than not. Expectations have been lowered each season and we as a fan base make excuses for our failings.

Exactly this.

[Chief Brody]

I'm not sure what people want here.

An arms race with teams backed by oil money? Success is directly proportionate to spend and currently we sit above teams that spend vast sums every single year. That's not easy, and that's with some terrible results thrown in.

No, we are not the complete team, but again, this is klopps first full season.
Look how long it's taken Poch at Spurs but that's the right way to do it.

[Samie]

Nope. If we were in a legit title race with Kloppo this season then you'd be correct.

[SerbianScouser]

Yes we are as it's a squad game not a first XI game.

But that's why we appointed the best over-achiever in modern football history to be our manager. People say Klopp is not a miracle worker; well if somebody told you when he took over that he's gonna take that group of players (fresh of not being able to beat the mighty Carlisle) to a European Cup final beating the mighty Dortmund along the way everyone here would be laughing their heads off.

With our financial resources we have no business being in Top 4 for entirety of this season - and yet again it's Klopp and his miracle work to make us the highest scorers in the league without Suarez, without Sturridge, without 20+ goals striker.

He's been over-achieving almost every year since he started at Mainz so from that perspective we should all be exhilarated he's steering our ship because this is just the start as he's nowhere near completing his squad. When he does it's truly gonna be rock'n'roll.

[kkjellquist]

Klopp is getting the absolute best out of your squad. The problem is it is just full of average players who wouldn't look out of place playing for 8th or 9th place teams in the league. I read some thinking Klopp decided to not invest in your squad but why would he do that? Surely a manager of his ability could see how weak the squad is.

FSG just aren't interested in investing properly in Liverpool to take you to the next level and that will become abundantly clear in time. Klopp will probably end up getting the full brunt of the criticism in 12 months time when things stay as they are instead of the owners who look like they don't give a shit.

I believe Liverpool are only in the top 4 currently because of Klopp but risk losing out because of the owners.

This...4th place will be a blessing and a curse.  I'd love CL football, but not in the manner we had it a couple seasons ago.  I don't want to be warm up games for Real Madrid again.  We need 5-6 TOP NOTCH players to compete for the league/domestic trophies and make a solid CL run.  I suspect FSG will be happy with Danny Ings unfortunately.