Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 383824 times)

Online TepidT2O

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3600 on: April 10, 2017, 07:52:35 pm »
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Offline AaronSingh25

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3601 on: April 10, 2017, 08:14:43 pm »
So whilst we all agree Asaad is a horrid individual - i'd still like to see some concrete evidence that he carried out this attack.

It makes no sense.

It's akin to a boxer having knocked out his opponent and he's out for the count. While the referee makes a ten count, the winning boxer then decides to take a piss on him, and for good measure removes his shorts and takes a shit on him, thus disqualifying himself. Why would he do that?

It's as if WMD's debacle etc never happened.

It's as if those making these claims don't have their own interests in place. If this is a case of 'humanitarian effort' - where's the love for those in Yemen, Sudan, etc?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3602 on: April 10, 2017, 08:23:04 pm »
So whilst we all agree Asaad is a horrid individual - i'd still like to see some concrete evidence that he carried out this attack.

It makes no sense.

It's akin to a boxer having knocked out his opponent and he's out for the count. While the referee makes a ten count, the winning boxer then decides to take a piss on him, and for good measure removes his shorts and takes a shit on him, thus disqualifying himself. Why would he do that?

It's as if WMD's debacle etc never happened.

It's as if those making these claims don't have their own interests in place. If this is a case of 'humanitarian effort' - where's the love for those in Yemen, Sudan, etc?
Of course,he might just not give a fuck.

Seriously?  What difference has the bombing made to him? None.  A few missiles and loads of notice.  He knows the US can't do much as the Russians are supporting him.

What does he stand to gain?  A restablishment of his ruthless and murderous rule as he regains control of the country

Makes sense to me anyway..

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3603 on: April 10, 2017, 08:29:46 pm »
So whilst we all agree Asaad is a horrid individual - i'd still like to see some concrete evidence that he carried out this attack.

It makes no sense.

It's akin to a boxer having knocked out his opponent and he's out for the count. While the referee makes a ten count, the winning boxer then decides to take a piss on him, and for good measure removes his shorts and takes a shit on him, thus disqualifying himself. Why would he do that?

It's as if WMD's debacle etc never happened.

It's as if those making these claims don't have their own interests in place. If this is a case of 'humanitarian effort' - where's the love for those in Yemen, Sudan, etc?

Sorry but there are simply too many things conflated into your post and a lot of shit logic. I started typing a long answer but really don't have the time.
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Offline AaronSingh25

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3604 on: April 10, 2017, 08:47:08 pm »
Sorry but there are simply too many things conflated into your post and a lot of shit logic. I started typing a long answer but really don't have the time.

Can you point me to the evidence that it was definately Asaad who carried out this chemical attack? As far as i can see, no one has even carried out in an investigation. Whilst yes this doesn't disprove anything, it doesn't prove anything either.

Furthermore, do you concede those who are against Asaad, those who have a vested interest in the region have a great deal to gain if it is Asaad? Surely the confliction must be noted.


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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3605 on: April 10, 2017, 08:51:32 pm »
Can you point me to the evidence that it was definately Asaad who carried out this chemical attack? As far as i can see, no one has even carried out in an investigation. Whilst yes this doesn't disprove anything, it doesn't prove anything either.

Furthermore, do you concede those who are against Asaad, those who have a vested interest in the region have a great deal to gain if it is Asaad? Surely the confliction must be noted.


Who do you think did it?
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Offline AaronSingh25

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3606 on: April 10, 2017, 08:56:45 pm »
Who do you think did it?

I have no idea - as there is no evidence either way. What i would like however, is concrete evidence - before bombing the shit out of Syria some more, regime change, and the ensuing cluster fuck and refugee crisis that will exist afterwards.

When you look at the broader context of the gas pipeline issue then you do see why both sides are full of shit :




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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3607 on: April 10, 2017, 09:03:30 pm »
I have no idea - as there is no evidence either way. What i would like however, is concrete evidence - before bombing the shit out of Syria some more, regime change, and the ensuing cluster fuck and refugee crisis that will exist afterwards.

When you look at the broader context of the gas pipeline issue then you do see why both sides are full of shit :




The pipeline of course has absolutely nothing to do with the gas. 

Who else has had gas available? Assad certainly has...

I'm not sure why you would expect access to military intelligence in a war zone though, it seems a nice thing to request, but not necessarily realistic.

As for the bombing, they had hours of notice.. it's about as minor as the US could have done.  Symbolic more than anything I suspect.

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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3608 on: April 10, 2017, 09:23:42 pm »
It's just occurred to me that while we are all pulling our tripes out attempting to find some credible reasons for this state of absolutely disgusting shite in Syria, there are those in the States who are proud of Trump's "attack" - if that's what you can term a missile launch where you warn the enemy's "partner" you are about to do it.
That Republican gung-ho clown Lindsey Graham from South Carolina actually wants US boots on the ground to "rally the rebels and smash Assad" - so we're looking at Iraq all over again.
There's something I think he's totally forgotten here and that's who's standing alongside Assad. Should he get his way, then we're actually looking at WW3.
We should be far more worried about that looney bastard Graham than anyone else right now.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3609 on: April 10, 2017, 09:37:03 pm »
Claims that the Russians knew about the gas attack in advance .

https://www.apnews.com/19772be1238e49fbb62c509a5b659b3d
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Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3610 on: April 10, 2017, 10:31:53 pm »
So whilst we all agree Asaad is a horrid individual - i'd still like to see some concrete evidence that he carried out this attack.

It makes no sense.

It's akin to a boxer having knocked out his opponent and he's out for the count. While the referee makes a ten count, the winning boxer then decides to take a piss on him, and for good measure removes his shorts and takes a shit on him, thus disqualifying himself. Why would he do that?

It's as if WMD's debacle etc never happened.

It's as if those making these claims don't have their own interests in place. If this is a case of 'humanitarian effort' - where's the love for those in Yemen, Sudan, etc?

It 'made no sense' when he used sarin in 2012. Or when he used chlorine bombs on multiple occasions since then. It made no sense for Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait, or later to play hardball over WMD; it made no sense for Gadaffi to start killing his own people in 2011...it was only going to end one way for all of them. Also, Assad probably feels less vulnerable because he has the protection of Russia. Another possibility is that he didn't personally order this specific attack, it could have a been a senior member of the military - maybe he's given them carte blanche to do whatever they think is necessary.

Just saying 'why would he do it' is not a strong argument that he didn't do it. Just look at the facts as we know them:

Assad's forces have used chemical weapons (including sarin) before
There's no 'concrete evidence' that the rebels have access to sarin
Even if they did, there's no 'concrete evidence' that there was a chemical weapons factory where the attack happened (as claimed by the Russians)
Scientifically, if there was an attack on a factory where sarin was been made / stored, it's very unlikely that it would be released in this way (someone posted something earlier today about this - it was in this article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39500947)

So given that there are realistically only two options as to whom is responsible, it's pretty obvious who the evidence points to.

Reading a couple of the links posted recently, I have no idea how reliable those websites are, but I'm seeing a lot of stuff trying to claim that it's all fake and it's actually the US that are responsible, etc...people talk about not believing the 'mainstream media' but then unquestioningly believe an article on some random website because it fits in with their vaguely anti-establishment / conspiracy theory views. I mean for example, the idea that Obama orchestrated the sarin attack in 2012 to justify a subsequent invasion of Syria is just ludicrous. Firstly, it ignores the fact that he didn't actually invade Syria. Secondly, why would he deliberately make himself look weak by drawing a 'red line' and then not taking action when the line was crossed (if his plan all along was to invade)? Thirdly, his whole foreign policy from the start was based on not getting into any more wars (at least on the ground) - he pulled the US out of Afghanistan and Iraq, and didn't send troops to Syria (or back into Iraq) when he could have on several occasions, to combat ISIS. And if there is actual evidence that the US is responsible for all of this, why have neither Assad nor the Russians made any claims along these lines?

It's not exactly radical anymore to suggest the the US are not squeaky-clean, but I don't understand this apparent urge some people have to somehow blame them ahead of regimes like Syria and Russia.


Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3611 on: April 10, 2017, 10:34:57 pm »


Which pipeline operator,  the major supplier to the EU, stands to gain the most from ensuring absolute turmoil in that region?

A clue...



The answer begins with a G...
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Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3612 on: April 10, 2017, 10:35:29 pm »
Claims that the Russians knew about the gas attack in advance .

https://www.apnews.com/19772be1238e49fbb62c509a5b659b3d

Another thing pointing to Syria / Russia's involvement - why did they bomb the hospital shortly after the attack?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3613 on: April 10, 2017, 10:37:49 pm »
Another thing pointing to Syria / Russia's involvement - why did they bomb the hospital shortly after the attack?
Also, if this is a 'false flag' cover up, do people really thing that all the European governments who would surely have known of this too would just say nothing? 

Really?

Which pipeline operator,  the major supplier to the EU, stands to gain the most from ensuring absolute turmoil in that region?

A clue...



The answer begins with a G...

Also a nice little spot on the med coastline for the Russians....

Wouldn't be surprised to see them make moves to move into Greece again too,..
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3614 on: April 10, 2017, 10:43:40 pm »
Can you point me to the evidence that it was definately Asaad who carried out this chemical attack? As far as i can see, no one has even carried out in an investigation. Whilst yes this doesn't disprove anything, it doesn't prove anything either.

Furthermore, do you concede those who are against Asaad, those who have a vested interest in the region have a great deal to gain if it is Asaad? Surely the confliction must be noted.

Why would I have evidence that definitely says anything when I've said quite clearly that none of us know?
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3615 on: April 10, 2017, 10:44:51 pm »
....Also a nice little spot on the med coastline for the Russians....

Oh absolutely, I had a discussion with Yorky about it here around 5 years ago now.

...Wouldn't be surprised to see them make moves to move into Greece again too,..



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Offline AaronSingh25

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3616 on: April 11, 2017, 04:50:05 am »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3617 on: April 11, 2017, 04:57:02 am »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Offline Trada

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3618 on: April 11, 2017, 07:06:29 am »
I was just reading this not sure if its real news or fake news its hard to tell sometimes.

Swedish Doctors for Human Rights: Analysis of Evidence Contradicts Allegations on Syrian Gas Attacks

http://truepublica.org.uk/global/swedish-doctors-for-human-rights-analysis-of-evidence-contradicts-allegations-on-syrian-gas-attacks/
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3619 on: April 11, 2017, 07:24:42 am »
I was just reading this not sure if its real news or fake news its hard to tell sometimes.

Swedish Doctors for Human Rights: Analysis of Evidence Contradicts Allegations on Syrian Gas Attacks

http://truepublica.org.uk/global/swedish-doctors-for-human-rights-analysis-of-evidence-contradicts-allegations-on-syrian-gas-attacks/
It's not news. It's a bloggers conspiracy hypothesis.  Not exactly a reliable source.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3620 on: April 11, 2017, 10:18:09 am »
Is anyone else perturbed by how many of us westerners appear to be assuming Assad is this great, calculating, rational, omnipotent genius of a generation - all because they can't quite comprehend why he would use chemical weapons?

We all seem comfortable enough to label Trump a loon (and, of course, he is). But the guy who has an evidenced personal, and familial, history of sectarianism, murder, butchery, genocide and simple old fashioned authoritarianism gets the benefit of the doubt from some because they think he isn't a loon and would be smarter if he fancied killing some more civilians again.

Disgusting as he is, give me a narcissist loon like Trump ahead of a murderous loony tyrant like Assad everyday of the week

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3621 on: April 11, 2017, 10:19:01 am »
Give Trump time of course....
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3622 on: April 11, 2017, 10:20:13 am »


If you're as confused as Ice Cube is, and don't understand the difference between targeting military bases rather than Syrian citizens, then perhaps it's best you have a read and get yourself up to speed before posting further memes.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3623 on: April 11, 2017, 11:07:41 am »
In what way is that helpful?
Probably as helpful as the people on my social media accusing the white helmets of being paid actors helping the sarin victims.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3624 on: April 11, 2017, 01:27:41 pm »
Probably as helpful as the people on my social media accusing the white helmets of being paid actors helping the sarin victims.
Really?  Fucking hell...
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Offline CornerFlag

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3625 on: April 11, 2017, 02:19:23 pm »
Really?  Fucking hell...
Linked to a David Icke fan page.  They have another one up called The Duran but looks even shittier.  A simple meme is all some people need to fight for "their truth".
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Offline Trada

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3626 on: April 11, 2017, 04:49:07 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/_LKsn4ZutxQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/_LKsn4ZutxQ</a>
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3627 on: April 11, 2017, 05:10:54 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/_LKsn4ZutxQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/_LKsn4ZutxQ</a>

Sorry but what's his basis for all this? And what is a 'fake flag'?
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Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3628 on: April 12, 2017, 05:09:06 am »
Timely revisionism? Review of a new Stephen Gowans book covering recent Syrian history:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/11/syria-beyond-western-myths-and-half-truths/

« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 07:09:41 am by RedBootsTommySmith »
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3629 on: April 12, 2017, 07:02:36 am »
Timely revisionism?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/11/syria-beyond-western-myths-and-half-truths/



The main problem I have with that is the writer's attempt to smash the square peg of Trump into the round hole of long-term American hegemony. One of the mostly likely motivations being leaked out of the White House is that Ivanka saw the dead babies and Daddy sent the missiles. It's as probable as the convoluted conspiracies about an orange clown like Trump being part of the long term management of global politics by an American elite.

As ever, the real world is far more complicated than neat conspiracy thinking that draws lines through Tonkin and Iraq with the narrative that says 'look!... that happened therefore this must be the same thing.

It also misrepresents both Tonkin and Iraq as 'false flag' operations or deliberate lies. I've studied a lot of 'false flag' claims in my time and the evidence for most of them being deliberate is very thin on the ground.

At some point we may get some clear and incontrovertible evidence but until then it's best to keep an open mind. Especially with the current President. He's an idiot who acts on the basis of what he's seen in TV. If you're writing more than two paragraphs to outline his motives you're probably overthinking it.

My reading of the evidence I've seen with no great analysis is that it was probably Assad's forces.
It's possible but less likely that it was an accidental discharge after a conventional bombing raid.
It's also possible that opposition forces used a cobbled together delivery system to launch a CW attack.
It's even possible that the CIA/Mossad/insert name here staged the attack as a 'false flag'z
It's extremely likely that if I search the Internet there will be a host of sites saying it never happened at all. 

The only way to determine what happened is through evidence. Looking at perceived motives, past history or squeezing it into a preconceived world view tells you the square root of fuck all.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3630 on: April 12, 2017, 07:13:43 am »
Timely revisionism? Review of a new Stephen Gowans book covering recent Syrian history:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/11/syria-beyond-western-myths-and-half-truths/



Seems the Syrian waters get muddier and muddier . . . . What/who the fook can any of us believe? :( :(
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Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3631 on: April 12, 2017, 07:34:32 am »
The overriding message I got from the analysis is that the current Syrian civil war has been painted in Western media as a result of an 'Arab Spring' protest & the government suppression thereof, whereas the roots go back further. I.e., the Arab response to years of imperial (ottoman) then colonial rule; multiple coups/ counter-coups since the end of WWII, the secular but nationalistic aims of the Ba'ath party, (which at one point embraced what is now Egypt, Iraq & Syria, where now Syria is 'last man standing'), which is opposed by religious fundamentalists wishing to impose an Islamic state; and the exploitation of those divisions by external interests, to divide & conquer. Fair means & foul. I believe the book was published before the recent gas attack/ response, the reviewer was adding those events in context.

I posted the link as it represents a narrative that may be understood by some, but not usually one presented by western media, nevertheless worthy of further exposure/ commentary plus & minus.

Alan, I couldn't agree more with your conclusion that facts & evidence must be established...and should have been established...concerning the gas attack, before deciding how to respond. I was reading an international lawyer's arguments on the legality of the US response, it was pretty damning.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 07:50:19 am by RedBootsTommySmith »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3632 on: April 12, 2017, 07:41:17 am »
The overriding message I got from the analysis is that the current Syrian civil war has being painted in Western media as a result of an 'Arab Spring' protest & the government suppression thereof, whereas the roots go back further. I.e., the Arab response to years of imperial (ottoman) then colonial rule; multiple coups/ counter-coups since the end of WWII, the secular but nationalistic aims of the Ba'ath party, (which at one point embraced what is now Egypt, Iraq & Syria, where now Syria is 'last man standing'), which is opposed by religious fundamentalists wishing to impose an Islamic state; and the exploitation of those divisions by external interests, to divide & conquer. Fair means & foul. I believe the book was published before the recent gas attack/ response, the reviewer was adding those events in context.

I posted the link as it represents a narrative that may be understood by some, but not usually one presented by western media, nevertheless worthy of further exposure/ commentary plus & minus.

Sorry, I didn't mean to dismiss it out of hand. Of course it goes back beyond the Arab Spring and I think there's plenty of analysis available in the 'Main Stream Media' that makes those arguments. There are roots in British Imperialism, cartography, religious schisms between Sunni & Shia, the distorted 'socialism' of the Baath Party, oil and territory, the Pan-Arab movement, the creation of Israel, tribalism, American/Russian/European real politik... and so on... 



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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3633 on: April 12, 2017, 08:57:46 am »
Why the **** have we backed the usa on this?
Its not liek they have been reliable in the past when we stupidly followed them in.

And become targets ourselves.

This war sadly wedged in a paranoid war between the usa and russia.
We shoudlnt be getting involved at all.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3634 on: April 12, 2017, 10:56:25 pm »
I'd never imagined that this would happen...

Russia vetoes UN Syrian resolution.

New York (CNN)Russia vetoed a UN resolution Wednesday that would have required Syria to cooperate with investigators and face full accountability after a brutal chemical attack in that country.

It's the eighth time Russia has vetoed a proposed Security Council resolution on Syria.


I guess that means there will be no truly independent UN inspection of the event. Hohum.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3635 on: April 14, 2017, 02:21:23 am »
Assad himself is accusing the rebels of putting on a play with actors.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39588876

Unfortunately for his suggestion, as the BBC note, it's kind of hard to play act lab tests showing a nerve gas has been used.

There does come a point where one narrative is so self-evidently ludicrous that one must dismiss it.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3636 on: April 14, 2017, 04:04:28 am »
I think its highly likely that Assad did it and it was real not fake.

But one thing plays at the back of my mind, Just after the attack Sky News talked to an expert who helped at other attacks, and he was saying around 80 victims was just the start of it and over the coming days that will rise into the 100's maybe a 1000 like in the other attacks.

You get the people caught up in the attack, and after that its the rescuers, family members, Doctor and Nurses anyone that comes in contact with them because its on the victims body and clothes and anyone who comes into skin contact with them also dies.

But this didn't happen the death toll stayed about the same.

Just something I remember.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3637 on: April 14, 2017, 07:39:58 am »
Assad did it, and he doesn't need a military reason to do it. He did it because he's in a position of strength, he did it to feel untouchable, he did it to punish those who dared question his supremacy, he did it to spread fear among would be enemies. To send a message that he's stronger than ever, to go on the attack as the best form of defence. He did it because Putin and Iran have given him a platform to do what he fucking likes and anyone that has dared to mess with him, with his family's power and the supremacy of the Ba'ath party will not only be eliminated, but so will their entire families, towns and districts, and he will never forgive or forget that what is rightfully his was brought into doubt, he owns the lives of his people, and he can do with them what he likes. He sees other dictactors who never used the full arsenal of the weapons they had, and they ended up riddled with bullets, to him it's about survival, then revenge. This is how it has always worked.
Eye witness reports by civilians and doctors working in the area confirm seeing the plane attacks by the only side in the conflict with aerial power. Giving evidence to internet investigators should not take priority over stopping a madman gassing his way to power. Not the first time he done it either. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 07:41:46 am by The North Bank »

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3638 on: April 14, 2017, 07:57:40 am »
I think its highly likely that Assad did it and it was real not fake.

But one thing plays at the back of my mind, Just after the attack Sky News talked to an expert who helped at other attacks, and he was saying around 80 victims was just the start of it and over the coming days that will rise into the 100's maybe a 1000 like in the other attacks.

You get the people caught up in the attack, and after that its the rescuers, family members, Doctor and Nurses anyone that comes in contact with them because its on the victims body and clothes and anyone who comes into skin contact with them also dies.

But this didn't happen the death toll stayed about the same.

Just something I remember.

After the 2013 attack in Ghouta which killed over a thousand people. Medical personnel working in the area made it protocol to wear gas masks and have antropine supplies, that is a nerve gas antidote, they also became well versed in what to do in case of a chemical attack, the civilians too stocked up. Reports are that when the first responders started dropping to the ground this time, they relayed on radios that it's a gas attack and basically the training kicked in, for medical personnel and people, these are the realities on the ground, you do what you can to survive.
Alternatively, you can sit at home in a western democracy, safe from ever being gassed to death, dreaming up conspiracy theories.
Not you in particular, just some ridiculous contributions in this thread.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3639 on: April 14, 2017, 07:59:45 am »
It very much depends on the gas being released and the quantity of the gas...
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