Topic: The barbarity that is Syria

[Conocinico]

The alternative would be the Assad/Russian solution as currently being applied to old Aleppo - and her windy narrow streets. I.e. Just bomb the fuck out of them.

The rebels abandoned Old Aleppo this morning.

[Yorkykopite]

The rebels abandoned Old Aleppo this morning.

I know. Carpet bombing over several months and blockade and starvation work. But that doesn't mean we should either applaud the policy or adopt it. I imagine we can all agree on that, even the loonies.

[El_Pistolero]

A balanced view of a conflict is all anyone could ask for here.

To some, wars are usually clean cut affairs with one side wearing good hats, the other bad ones. To them the concept of a brutal dictator fighting a potentially more savage opponent presents an alien concept. To them (in this case) any criticism of the rebels or the FSA (if it's still there) is an automatic endorsement of Assad. Eh.

Sometimes, what can you say? there are no easy answers or decisions to be made.

Bang on. Don't really have much to add to that one either.

It's a catch-22 of the most depressing circumstance for everybody involved. From average Joe living in his crumpled apartment block and growing tomatoes in a patch of dirt to get by; the former Syrian teenagers who've been fighting, non-stop, a hellish war against their brothers since getting drafted at 18, five or six years ago; those rebels fighting for genuinely 'good' ideals and have watched their revolution collapse from one of hope to despair.

It's really depressing whatever angle you look at it from.

[puroresu_kid]

Bang on. Don't really have much to add to that one either.

It's a catch-22 of the most depressing circumstance for everybody involved. From average Joe living in his crumpled apartment block and growing tomatoes in a patch of dirt to get by; the former Syrian teenagers who've been fighting, non-stop, a hellish war against their brothers since getting drafted at 18, five or six years ago; those rebels fighting for genuinely 'good' ideals and have watched their revolution collapse from one of hope to despair.

It's really depressing whatever angle you look at it from.

Should never of tied themselves to the Gulf states, Turkey or the US.  Once they started what follows is orders from those sponsors and they all have there own agendas.

It could be the case that the last one standing is ISIS.  The one who has enemies surrounding them from all angles and the 'rebels' themselves decided to fight. 

[El_Pistolero]

 Once again Palmyra has fallen according to ISIS' own news agency Amaq (who are quite reliable when it comes to territorial gains FWIW).

Very unfortunate, to say the least. 

[kaiser franz]

Once again Palmyra has fallen according to ISIS' own news agency Amaq (who are quite reliable when it comes to territorial gains FWIW).

Very unfortunate, to say the least. 

They using army preoccupation with alepo,I just wonder from where they got 4000 thousand fighters all of the sudden for offensive,only can be the ones that  escaped through that free corridor from mosul that americans so generously offered.The more this shit going,the more is turning in proxy war between yanks and russians.

[TravisBickle]

As you go to bed tonight, please think of what is going to happen in Eastern Aleppo whilst you sleep. It's not the easiest thing to do, as the suffering will be unimaginable, but I think it's important to be mindful of what's happening in our world.

 

[Libertine]

As you go to bed tonight, please think of what is going to happen in Eastern Aleppo whilst you sleep. It's not the easiest thing to do, as the suffering will be unimaginable, but I think it's important to be mindful of what's happening in our world.

No, apparently they are being liberated, it's a moment of great joy for them:



Hard to overstate just how morally bankrupt the hard left are in this country.....

[El_Pistolero]

I mean 'liberation' is probably not what the people of Aleppo are calling it (although a lot maybe are) but I don't think we should underestimate the joy and relief that many (hundreds-of) thousands will be overcome with today.

At the very least, and for the first time in four-years and five-months, people can start to rebuild some sort of life without constant sieges, air-bombardment, shelling, hoarding, looting... etc etc etc.

[Libertine]

Liberation:

[puroresu_kid]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-38301629

Syrian pro-government forces have been entering homes in eastern Aleppo and killing those inside, including women and children, the UN says.

The UN's human rights office said it had reliable evidence that in four areas 82 civilians were shot on the spot.

A spokesman said it looked like there had been a "complete meltdown of humanity in Aleppo".

Rebels, who have held east Aleppo for four years, are on the brink of defeat.

Thousands of people are reportedly trapped in the last remaining neighbourhoods still in rebel hands, facing intense bombardment as pro-government troops advance.


Both the UN and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) have appealed to Syria and its ally Russia to end the bombardment and allow civilians a safe passage out.

Numerous bodies on streets

At a news conference in Geneva, UN human rights spokesman Rupert Colville gave details of the atrocities being reported.

He said that of the 82 civilians reportedly shot, 11 were women and 13 were children.

"Yesterday evening, we received further deeply disturbing reports that numerous bodies were lying on the streets," Mr Colville added.

"The residents were unable to retrieve them due to the intense bombardment and their fear of being shot on sight."
 

Surprised?  Nope

This was always going to happen.  The Assad army, with Hezbollah and Shia gangs from Iraq and Iran will now get there revenge on the Sunni's.

I am angry at the rebels who should have tunnels ready for civilians to get out.  I am angry at them for selling out there cause for money and taking orders from Turkey and the US. 

[CornerFlag]

http://www.boredpanda.com/before-after-war-photos-aleppo-syria/?page_numb=1

Some of the photos don't seem to completely be similar to the before one they're meant to represent but most do, it's just absolute devastation on a city-wide scale.  Can't even get my head around it.

[Yorkykopite]

Pounded into the dust. As if the Geneva Convention and the United Nations didn't exist. An obvious war crime that seems to have been committed with joy as well as impunity. A barbarism that will forever attach itself to Assad's and Putin's names.

[TravisBickle]

No, apparently they are being liberated, it's a moment of great joy for them:



Hard to overstate just how morally bankrupt the hard left are in this country.....

 A rancid statement from a rancid paper, written for rancid people with rancid views.

[Yorkykopite]

There are no words for what has happened in Aleppo over the last months and years. It's simply unimaginable for most of our minds. Utterly devastating for Syria and Syrians.

George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford (yeah I know) made a note of this in the debate earlier, but Western leaders were terrified to intervene after Iraq and Afghanistan. We knew the cost of intervention, but now we are learning the cost of NOT intervening.

What a fucking sorry state of affairs. Those poor civilians. 

And the UNSC can go fuck themselves as well. Failure after failure after failure. What's the point?

Yes and yes.

 

A rancid statement from a rancid paper, written for rancid people with rancid views.

This comes as no surprise. This is the same newspaper that excused or ignored the murder of 20 million Russians by the Bolsheviks in the 1930s. A paper that welcomed the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression pact and the subsequent partition of Poland by two totalitarian regimes. A paper which also welcomed the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia and was a cheer leader for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

It says it campaigns for socialism but in reality it is a friend of fascism. That's why it sticks up for Assad and Putin and couldn't care a toss that half a million Syrian civilians have now been killed, and millions more are refugees. Aleppo may be reduced to dust, but why should that lousy newspaper care. It is without morality.

[Keith Lard]

Truth is we live in a sick world - those with influence clearly have a vested interest in waging war.

International crisis after crisis after crisis. 36 years i've been on this Earth - lost hope it will ever change. For all the hard charity work we do and must continue to do, know it's because we are the fools dealing with the consequences of the greed of those that COULD truly make a difference if they wanted to. Those with power, money, influence - leaders of countries, corporations.

[bigbonedrawky]

A rancid statement from a rancid paper, written for rancid people with rancid views.

And todays word of the day is... Rancid 

There are no words for what has happened in Aleppo over the last months and years. It's simply unimaginable for most of our minds. Utterly devastating for Syria and Syrians.

George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford (yeah I know) made a note of this in the debate earlier, but Western leaders were terrified to intervene after Iraq and Afghanistan. We knew the cost of intervention, but now we are learning the cost of NOT intervening.

What a fucking sorry state of affairs. Those poor civilians. 

And the UNSC can go fuck themselves as well. Failure after failure after failure. What's the point?

As far as NOT intervening goes I think too many countries intervened, too many countries sent fighters and too many countries sent arms and money. 
As for learning lessons in Afgan and Iraq I don't know about intervention ie Libya but we did re-learn a few things about Invasion and how those lessons can be forgotten in the rush for war.

This so called Civil War itself has been anything but civil and all too soon it became a proxy war.
Once that happened the Syrians themselves lost control of their own civil war and it became hard to imagine a scenario which didn't end with lots and lots of dead Syrians...No matter which side won.

Good to see the DEC is launcing a christmas appeal for Yeman
         

[TipTopKop]

..it became hard to imagine a scenario which didn't end with lots and lots of dead Syrians...No matter which side won.

Most certainly.

It's a dreadful situation at the moment, but hard as it is to believe there were potentially worse options.

There are no winners, no clean sides, and there are vested interests everywhere with the people stuck in the middle regardless.

[Yorkykopite]

Beware the attempt to pass off the Syrian rebellion against a fascist dictatorship as 'foreign-inspired' or 'foreign-controlled'. Assad, with the help of Putin, used an airforce, an artillery, poison gas, an army of mercenaries and foreign ideologues from Iran to subjugate the rebellion and condemn hundreds of thousands of ordinary civilians to death, starvation and wandering the globe in search of a home.

Those who cheered on this massacre in the West know exactly what they are doing. 

[Circa1892]

And todays word of the day is... Rancid           

Might have known you'd have no problems with genocide as long as it's done by the Russians or anyone that isn't "western imperialists".

[CornerFlag]

Good to see the DEC is launching a Christmas appeal for Yemen

Saw an appeal with Tom Hardy.  Another conflict I know little about but know it's always the innocents caught in the middle of it.  Heartbreaking.

[jooneyisdagod]

Most certainly.

It's a dreadful situation at the moment, but hard as it is to believe there were potentially worse options.

There are no winners, no clean sides, and there are vested interests everywhere with the people stuck in the middle regardless.

If only the Brits and the Americans intervened and bombed the shit out of the regime instead. Then we would be hearing terms like "collateral damage" and "necessary deaths". The BBC and CNN would be airing images of children screaming with joy with some marines playing a game of football with them. Oh, the joy to be liberated while hundreds of thousands of others died. This is genocidal levels of mass murder, but it isn't like this war has happened in a vacuum. Short of prolonging and entrenching the war, there was little recourse other than one side or the other sending troops in to beat the other side. The idea that the rebels were some free-spirited democrats is so naive that even a three year old that has any knowledge of that region would laugh at such a thought. 

[Yorkykopite]

If only the Brits and the Americans intervened and bombed the shit out of the regime instead. Then we would be hearing terms like "collateral damage" and "necessary deaths". The BBC and CNN would be airing images of children screaming with joy with some marines playing a game of football with them. Oh, the joy to be liberated while hundreds of thousands of others died. This is genocidal levels of mass murder, but it isn't like this war has happened in a vacuum. Short of prolonging and entrenching the war, there was little recourse other than one side or the other sending troops in to beat the other side. The idea that the rebels were some free-spirited democrats is so naive that even a three year old that has any knowledge of that region would laugh at such a thought. 

I know this one. The Arab world is complex (It is). The struggle against dictatorship is not simple (it isn't). The Jihadists and Muslim fundamentalists complicate things (they do). We should therefore abstain from expressing our disapproval when a Fascist like Assad commits genocide and bombs and poisons his own people to smithereens  (Fuck off).

[TipTopKop]

The idea that the rebels were some free-spirited democrats is so naive that even a three year old that has any knowledge of that region would laugh at such a thought.

Too true, but then there will always be those who invariably attempt to drill home a one sided simplistic viewpoint, (rebels weren't foreign backed but somehow had -until now- enough military hardware/personnel to hold off against Russia/Syrian army/Iran backed militias by themselves).

It's a brutal mess on all fronts. Be wary of anyone attempting to make out that there is a clean side in this. There isn't.

[jooneyisdagod]

I know this one. The Arab world is complex (It is). The struggle against dictatorship is not simple (it isn't). The Jihadists and Muslim fundamentalists complicate things (they do). We should therefore abstain from expressing our disapproval when a Fascist like Assad commits genocide and bombs and poisons his own people to smithereens  (Fuck off).

Glad I know this one too. Pretend like one is objective (Acknowledge that Arab world is complex, the struggle isn't easy etc). Acknowledge lightly that the jihadists complicate things without mentioning that they have serious designs for claiming power as well as the means to do so with backing from the West's friends. Use highly emotive language such as "fascist", "genocide" etc to describe the "bad person" and pretend to argue from the side of the people. And then call for the bombs from the west to rain in as if a bomb with an American/British flag on it doesn't kill people.

[bigbonedrawky]

Might have known you'd have no problems with genocide as long as it's done by the Russians or anyone that isn't "western imperialists".

YAWN

Instead of posting imaginary quotes to slag me off, how about you find a quote of mine which backs up your statement...   
or STFU and go get a life you deluded crank.   

[Conocinico]

The Jihadists and Muslim fundamentalists complicate things (they do).

That is who the rebels in Aleppo were.

[cdav]

That is who the rebels in Aleppo were.

All of them? Were they always, or did they protest for a better life before Assad trued to put the rebellion down and more and more extremists were drawn into the shitty situation of most of the past 4 years (death by Jihadi vs death by Assad)?

[Conocinico]

All of them? Were they always, or did they protest for a better life before Assad trued to put the rebellion down and more and more extremists were drawn into the shitty situation of most of the past 4 years (death by Jihadi vs death by Assad)?

Aleppo was largely pro-government which is why initially there was no uprising in the city, although I believe, the poorer areas and the surrounding countryside was more pro-rebel.

I doubt there's been any moderates fighting in Aleppo for a long while.

[El_Pistolero]

Beware the attempt to pass off the Syrian rebellion against a fascist dictatorship as 'foreign-inspired' or 'foreign-controlled'. Assad, with the help of Putin, used an airforce, an artillery, poison gas, an army of mercenaries and foreign ideologues from Iran to subjugate the rebellion and condemn hundreds of thousands of ordinary civilians to death, starvation and wandering the globe in search of a home.

Those who cheered on this massacre in the West know exactly what they are doing. 

It's hardly been a revolution from below over the last four years though, has it?

Let's be aware, in equal measure, of swatting aside objectivity and painting the conflict as 'the Butcher' v 'the People' because by and large, it ain't.

[cdav]

Aleppo was largely pro-government which is why initially there was no uprising in the city, although I believe, the poorer areas and the surrounding countryside was more pro-rebel.

I doubt there's been any moderates fighting in Aleppo for a long while.

I'd agree about there being a lack of moderate rebels for a long time. They were either killed or amalgamated into the more extremist rebels as the war dragged on.

Its just an absolute cluster fuck of a situation- you have to ask what Assad and Russia have 'won' by taking the rubble of Aleppo? There has been an exodus of millions of the best and brightest, there is nothing left for them to return to and is there a will for the SAA and militia to push on and reunite the country?

[Conocinico]

I'd agree about there being a lack of moderate rebels for a long time. They were either killed or amalgamated into the more extremist rebels as the war dragged on.

Its just an absolute cluster fuck of a situation- you have to ask what Assad and Russia have 'won' by taking the rubble of Aleppo? There has been an exodus of millions of the best and brightest, there is nothing left for them to return to and is there a will for the SAA and militia to push on and reunite the country?

It frees up 1000s of SAA to be redeployed in Palmyra, Idlib, Deir-ez-Zor...

[cdav]

It frees up 1000s of SAA to be redeployed in Palmyra, Idlib, Deir-ez-Zor...

Are the other forces (Russia, Iran, Hezbollah) interested in pushing on and finally confronting ISIS and taking the rest of the country, its mainly just desert- now Assad has the big cities is he interested in anything else?

[Conocinico]

Are the other forces (Russia, Iran, Hezbollah) interested in pushing on and finally confronting ISIS and taking the rest of the country, its mainly just desert- now Assad has the big cities is he interested in anything else?

From what I've read, I'd guess an Idlib offensive wouldn't be too far away. Though I'm not the best person to ask.

[El_Pistolero]

Are the other forces (Russia, Iran, Hezbollah) interested in pushing on and finally confronting ISIS and taking the rest of the country, its mainly just desert- now Assad has the big cities is he interested in anything else?

Just to jump in:

Aleppo is important for the obvious reasons - once that's over I imagine Eastern Ghouta and the Rastan Pocket as well as the re-re-taking of Palmyra and securing the T4 Airbase from ISIS to be high up on the list. Doubt we'll see movement toward Deir ez-Zor, unfortunately, for a while yet. Idlib probably comes before that.

[Conocinico]

Yeah what he said.

[puroresu_kid]

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.  IS want T4 and I think they want to reach Lebanon.

Rebels leaders will have a hard time keeping support I think and the remaining fighters either stop fighting or I think they go to ISIS.

The fall of Aleppo is a propaganda win for ISIS.

[zero zero]

The fall of Aleppo is a propaganda win for ISIS.

In what way?

[MichaelA]

Cut out the personal abuse please. I'm not sure how you might think that point scoring on a football forum gives you any kind of moral high ground; repeat offenders will be enjoying a RAWK holiday.

[puroresu_kid]

In what way?

They wasn't there. They continued to accuse the rebels of selling out and by jumping into bed with Gulf states, Turkey and the US they would be used and then discarded.  They will say the Rebels split the ranks to fight for $$$ and left the Aleppo fronts to go and fight them and the end result was defeat to Assad.  The question will be what did fighting ISIS instead of Assad achieve?