Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 384089 times)

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #320 on: August 30, 2013, 10:34:53 am »
Last night's commons defeat had nothing to do with Syrian.  It was a cynical act by Labour, playing politics to embarrass the government and weaken Cameron. 
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #321 on: August 30, 2013, 10:40:20 am »
What a load of shit.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #322 on: August 30, 2013, 10:48:40 am »
You mean the olive oil? Production of the black stuff is negligible in Syria.

It's not all about production in Syria, though. It's about the instability the conflict is bringing about within the borders of major oil producers such as Iraq.

Quote
(Reuters) - Oil prices rose to a six-month high on Tuesday as Western powers readied a military strike against Syria, and traders and analysts cited concerns over stability in the Middle East.

Below are facts about Syria's energy sector and why developments there matter to global oil markets.

SYRIA'S OIL AND GAS SECTOR

* Syria has not exported any oil since late 2011, when international sanctions came into force.

* "Syria is not a major oil producer (as was Libya), nor is it a major transit point for oil and gas exports (as is Egypt)," said Julian Jessop, head of commodities research at Capital Economics.

"Instead the concern is the risk that Western intervention in Syria could prompt a wider regional conflict, given the support that Iran has provided to the regime of (President Bashar al-) Assad," he added.

* Prior to the sanctions Syria produced 370,000 barrels per day (bpd), roughly 0.4 percent of global supplies, and exported less than 150,000 bpd, mainly to Europe. The major oil companies working there before the sanctions were Royal Dutch Shell and Total.

* Syria's current production is estimated at just 50,000 bpd, all of which is refined domestically.

* It is short of oil products and is forced to import them from abroad. Sales of oil products to Syria are still allowed, although most traders have refrained from doing business there. It has been forced to resort to help from strategic ally Iran.

POTENTIAL IMPACT ON OTHER COUNTRIES

* A move against Syria could have an impact on Western efforts to pressure Tehran over its nuclear program, after trade sanctions have cut Iran's oil exports by half over the past two years. It still supplies around 1 million bpd to Asian markets and Turkey.

"With a U.S. strike on Syria, making some rapid progress on the Iranian nuclear files will be more difficult, and (Iranian President Hassan) Rouhani will not have been given the opportunity to try a different route," said Olivier Jakob from oil consultancy Petromatrix.

* The security situation in Iraq, currently OPEC's second largest producer, has significantly deteriorated because of Syria, said Helima Croft, an analyst at Barclays.

"Syria has deepened Iraq's sectarian fault lines, with Prime Minister Maliki's mainly Shiite government widely seen as siding with the Assad regime and Iraq's Sunni opposition leaders with the Syrian rebels," she said.

* A Syrian war also has the potential to further exacerbate tensions in large producing countries with significant Shiite populations such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, Croft said.

* Complicating the standoff is the involvement of other major players including support from major oil producer Russia for Assad's government.

"Syria has been at the front of a proxy war between regional powers, and siding with one party or the other in Syria is effectively getting drawn into this proxy war between Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait," Amrita Sen, from consultancy Energy Aspects, said.

* Petromatrix's Jakob added that Syria could pose a risk to the shipment of crudes out of Iraq and Azerbaijan.

"The Bay of Iskenderun, in Turkey off a few miles from the border with Syria, is a major export route for crude oil out of Iraq and Azerbaijan," he said.

He estimated oil flows running through the bay at 1.2 million bpd or over 1 percent of global supply.

(Reporting by Dmitry Zhdannikov in Moscow and Christopher Johnson in London; editing by Jason Neely and Jane Baird)

Oh, and here's a link for the anally retentive to check that I haven't altered the punctuation of the article.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/27/us-syria-oil-factbox-idUSBRE97Q0JW20130827
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Offline Libertine

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #323 on: August 30, 2013, 11:54:24 am »
Sums up how I feel about what happened last night:

Lord Ashdown turned his fire on Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem MPs who refused to back the government, writing on Twitter that he felt "depressed and ashamed" that people felt the atrocities in Syria were "none of our business".

"I think it diminishes our country hugely," he told the BBC News Channel.

"We should all understand who is cheering this morning. President Assad is cheering. President Putin is cheering. I suspect Nigel Frottage (UKIP leader) is cheering as he sees this country teetering on the edge of isolationism.

He added: "To see my country draw back from a coalition in favour of international law and decide the answer is to stand aside does not fill me with great joy."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23896034

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #324 on: August 30, 2013, 11:59:45 am »
But the vote last night did not say we, the people of the UK, feel that the atrocities are 'none of our business.' What the vote said is that we, the people of the UK, are sceptical that dropping bombs is going to improve the situation. This is, as Cameron correctly identified, connected to our retrospective judgement about Blair and Iraq.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #325 on: August 30, 2013, 12:10:07 pm »
"The last time a British prime minister was defeated by the Commons on a war motion was 1782 when MPs refused to go on fighting – of all people – the restless Americans wishing for independence." source

Offline Libertine

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #326 on: August 30, 2013, 12:16:06 pm »
But the vote last night did not say we, the people of the UK, feel that the atrocities are 'none of our business.' What the vote said is that we, the people of the UK, are sceptical that dropping bombs is going to improve the situation. This is, as Cameron correctly identified, connected to our retrospective judgement about Blair and Iraq.

A subtlety which may be lost on the Syrian people as they continue to suffer from their butal fascist dictator.

I'm glad the MPs managed to assuage their guilty consciences from the Iraq vote. Just a shame it was 10 years too late and may come at such a high price to Syrian civilians.

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #327 on: August 30, 2013, 12:22:23 pm »
BBC: blah, blah, blah, Britain's 'place in the world'... Blah, blah, blah, Britain's standing etc etc.

Zzzz...

Britain's place in the world continues to be just off the coast of mainland Europe in the northern Atlantic region. Britain's standing remains as a parliamentary 'democracy' which for once acted in line with the wishes of the population.

If the BBC can't figure that out they need better investigative journalists...

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #328 on: August 30, 2013, 12:38:07 pm »
Last night's commons defeat had nothing to do with Syrian.  It was a cynical act by Labour, playing politics to embarrass the government and weaken Cameron. 

Pretty much how I feel.

I'm not over-the-moon at the prospect of military intervention but letting Assad go on because of party politics... saddening really.

Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #329 on: August 30, 2013, 12:50:00 pm »
Last night's commons defeat had nothing to do with Syrian.  It was a cynical act by Labour, playing politics to embarrass the government and weaken Cameron. 

last night's Commons defeat was because the 1922 committee wanted to humiliate Cameron, and they got their way
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 01:01:20 pm by Sinos »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #330 on: August 30, 2013, 12:57:57 pm »
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-reports-of-napalmlike-bomb-attack-on-aleppo-playground-emerge-after-mps-vote-against-military-action-8790841.html

Meanwhile Syrian jets dropped napalm on a children's playground in the rebel-held town of Aleppo. Anyone who saw BBC Newsnight last night will have seen the horrific scenes at the end which were captured by a Panorama film crew. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23892594

And I'd just like to warn that this video is fucking horrible. 
I'm really hoping Sturridge busts out the wacky dip when he scores.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #331 on: August 30, 2013, 12:59:36 pm »
A subtlety which may be lost on the Syrian people as they continue to suffer from their butal fascist dictator.

And bombing the shit out of Syria will just mean more people will die. Unless you think 'collateral damage' doesn't count as long as you have good intentions.

Offline Scouse-Con

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #332 on: August 30, 2013, 01:08:53 pm »
NATO countries like all the EU countries, the USA, Canada and any other country willing to open it's borders and let the Syrian refugees claim asylum, instead of bombing the shit out of Syria killing thousands if not million more people.

We already have the blood on our hands of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, yes men, women and children thanks to Jack Straw and Tony Blair in a war in which we should of never been in. A war in Afghanistan which thousands of soldiers have been made redundant and pulling out of Afghan because we cannot defeat the Taliban and insurgents in which also we cannot stay due to financial problems now he wants to get involved in another Middle Eastern war which is best avoided?

So dropping chemical weapons on the Syrian people is inhumane then is it? And our governments really wants to do something about it? It is estimated that in the winter of 2011/12. 20,000 people mainly the elderly died from hypothermia as they couldn't afford to heat their home properly. I suppose that's a humane death is it ? Sort that out first Mr Cameron.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #333 on: August 30, 2013, 01:29:16 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23892594

And I'd just like to warn that this video is fucking horrible. 

I've never seen anything quite like that before. It's interesting to think that the napalm attack on that Vietnam village by the USAF which produced the very famous photograph of the young girl with her skin burning up played in an important part in turning the American public against that war.

I very much doubt that this will have any effect at all however, even though the pictures from Aleppo are even more horrific. We're probably more used to seeing atrocities on film than we were and perhaps that's calloused us a bit. But it turns out that we're also much more 'Little Englander' than many people imagined. Not enough people care.

Then there's this sort of attitude.

And bombing the shit out of Syria will just mean more people will die. Unless you think 'collateral damage' doesn't count as long as you have good intentions.


First of all no one in the West is proposing to 'bomb the shit out of Syria'. It's an outrageous comment. Not least because Assad's airforce and artillery have been doing precisely that for eighteen months now. What they're doing is carpet-bombing pure and simple. You will have seen the images of Aleppo and Qusair (and if you haven't it just means you've not been trying hard enough). Secondly, 'collateral damage' will happen in some surgical strikes. That is widely recognised and it's ridiculous to deny it. But 'good intentions' do mean something as well. They mean that no bombs are aimed deliberately at civilian areas - something that we should all applaud when we remember what American policy was in Vietnam and how it has evolved - under democratic pressure - since then. Compare that to what Assad's policy is today...and tomorrow and the day after tomorrow.

There are good reasons for not intervening and though I'm disappointed with the votes of my own party yesterday (the Labour party) I recognise and share some of their misgivings. But Cameron is right on this one. To prevent us from sending even a warning shot over the bows of one of the vilest dictators in the world - a true Fascist - who is murdering people with impunity is a sad result and makes Britain look small and indifferent.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #334 on: August 30, 2013, 01:30:11 pm »
last night's Commons defeat was because the 1922 committee wanted to humiliate Cameron, and they got their way

Could not have done that without Labour.  As for the public at large, well I would say many people are sick of being taken for mugs by their political leaders when it comes to war.  Ironic that we went into Iraq and found no WMDs but have turned our backs upon Syria when chemical weapons usage is beyond doubt - only question is who used them.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #335 on: August 30, 2013, 01:48:15 pm »
To prevent us from sending even a warning shot over the bows of one of the vilest dictators in the world - a true Fascist - who is murdering people with impunity is a sad result and makes Britain look small and indifferent.
Yesterday's vote shouldn't make Britain look any "smaller" (whatever that means) than any other nation that's not going to get militarily involved. And that debate, to anyone who watched it, certainly wouldn't make Britain look indifferent. If that's the way people who have only seen the result will view it, then you can't stop people coming to the wrong conclusions.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #336 on: August 30, 2013, 01:52:45 pm »
I've never seen anything quite like that before. It's interesting to think that the napalm attack on that Vietnam village by the USAF which produced the very famous photograph of the young girl with her skin burning up played in an important part in turning the American public against that war. 

You don't remember Fallujah? That didn't stop the public from ending that madness.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #337 on: August 30, 2013, 02:08:50 pm »
Yesterday's vote shouldn't make Britain look any "smaller" (whatever that means) than any other nation that's not going to get militarily involved. And that debate, to anyone who watched it, certainly wouldn't make Britain look indifferent. If that's the way people who have only seen the result will view it, then you can't stop people coming to the wrong conclusions.

No, that's a fair comment. Some of the speeches - on both sides of the debate - were good and, you're right, it was clear that most MPs were disgusted with Assad even if they couldn't bring themselves to translate that into action. 

There again, there's always comments like this which at least to my eyes look like rank indifference.

BBC: blah, blah, blah, Britain's 'place in the world'... Blah, blah, blah, Britain's standing etc etc.

Zzzz...

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #338 on: August 30, 2013, 02:22:53 pm »

There again, there's always comments like this which at least to my eyes look like rank indifference.


They only do if you quote them selectively, ignoring the rest of the guy's comment which was very well argued.

Let me try it with you:
No... comment. Some... speeches... disgusted... my eyes. Good... Assad.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #339 on: August 30, 2013, 02:26:25 pm »
No, that's a fair comment. Some of the speeches - on both sides of the debate - were good and, you're right, it was clear that most MPs were disgusted with Assad even if they couldn't bring themselves to translate that into action. 

There again, there's always comments like this which at least to my eyes look like rank indifference.

Well your eyes would be wrong. There we go again jumping to the wrong conclusions.

I just find it disgusting that Britain's standing in the world should be a consideration in all of this. Bit of an insult to the poor souls on the receiving end over in Syria. I agree with you on a fair bit of this Yorky, and it was an almost impossible decision to make, just makes me fume when the reporter I was watching when I made that comment seems to think that our position in the world should enter the debate. I happen to think it's irrelevant hence my dismissive comment (it was probably badly written).

If it makes us more isolated, then we can't be held to blame for that. There was a good debate and a very close vote. I find anyone trying to make political capital out of it (on either side of the debate) reprehensible. Either outcome would've had its merits and either outcome would've had/has excruciatingly sad aspects to it. Let's leave Britain's bloody over inflated opinion of itself where it belongs...out of it.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #340 on: August 30, 2013, 02:53:25 pm »
'Nobody Wants This Except The Military-Industrial Complex'

WASHINGTON -- Citing his responsibility to represent the views of his constituents, Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Fla.) said Thursday that he can't support an attack on Syria that his voters strongly oppose.

"One thing that is perfectly clear to me in my district, and I think is true in many other districts from speaking to other members, is that there is no desire, no desire on the part of people to be the world's policeman," Grayson said on SiriusXM's "The Agenda with Ari Rabin-Havt," which aired Thursday morning. "For us to pick up this gauntlet even on the basis of unequivocal evidence of chemical warfare by the Syrian army, deliberately against its own people -- even if there were unequivocal evidence of that -- that's just not what people in my district want."

That doesn't mean that opposition is universal, Grayson allowed. "I did notice, for what it's worth, that the manufacturer of the missiles that would be used has had an incredible run in their stock value in the last 60 days. Raytheon stock is up 20 percent in the past 60 days as the likelihood of the use of their missiles against Syria becomes more likely. So I understand that there is a certain element of our society that does benefit from this, but they're not the people who vote for me, or by the way the people who contribute to my campaign," he said. "Nobody wants this except the military-industrial complex."

Raytheon stock has in fact surged over the past two months, though it's been slightly shy of 20 percent.



"I take the title of representative seriously. I listen to people, I hear what they have to say. At a time when we are cutting veterans benefits, cutting education, student loans, cutting school budgets, contemplating cutting Social Security and Medicare, I don't see how we can justify spending billions of dollars on an attack like this," Grayson said.

Opinion polls back up Grayson's assessment of people's attitude toward Syria, as HuffPost's Emily Swanson reported Wednesday.

U.S. officials claim Syria's government has killed thousands with chemical weapons, but the American public mostly opposes any U.S. intervention in the war in Syria, according to the new HuffPost/YouGov poll.

Fifty-nine percent of respondents said they believe Syria has used chemical weapons against rebels, but they were about evenly divided on what the U.S. response should be.

Only a quarter of Americans support air strikes to aid rebels in Syria, according to the latest HuffPost/YouGov poll -- though that support has risen since two previous HuffPost/YouGov polls (here, in April, and here, in June). Forty-one percent oppose them.

source

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #341 on: August 30, 2013, 03:03:36 pm »
They only do if you quote them selectively, ignoring the rest of the guy's comment which was very well argued.

Let me try it with you:

I'm not quite sure what you contribute to this thread except your usual sneer. But for the record I did not edit anything in the lad's post (or change its meaning in any way) unlike you have just done with mine.

Well your eyes would be wrong. There we go again jumping to the wrong conclusions.

I just find it disgusting that Britain's standing in the world should be a consideration in all of this. Bit of an insult to the poor souls on the receiving end over in Syria. I agree with you on a fair bit of this Yorky, and it was an almost impossible decision to make, just makes me fume when the reporter I was watching when I made that comment seems to think that our position in the world should enter the debate. I happen to think it's irrelevant hence my dismissive comment (it was probably badly written).

If it makes us more isolated, then we can't be held to blame for that. There was a good debate and a very close vote. I find anyone trying to make political capital out of it (on either side of the debate) reprehensible. Either outcome would've had its merits and either outcome would've had/has excruciatingly sad aspects to it. Let's leave Britain's bloody over inflated opinion of itself where it belongs...out of it.

Again, I agree with much of what you say. But I don't think you've understood the point about 'Britain's standing in the world'. It's not a consideration at all, in the sense that you mean it here. No one is saying that Britain ought to intervene in Syria in order to maintain her position as a world power. That old imperial crap is no use at all.

Rather, it's a question of our status as internationalists. Britons should not feel proud of our imperial past but they should feel proud of the fact that we have a progressive heritage of looking beyond our own borders and of expressing solidarity with the persecuted elsewhere. Think of Lancashire cotton workers supporting Lincoln and the abolitionists (against their better interests as cotton workers). Or of Byron and the struggle for Greek independence. Or of the International Brigade and Spain. Or the people who set up Oxfam and Amnesty. All of them knew that their politics didn't stop at the white cliffs of Dover.

The various UN conventions which outlaw genocide and the use of chemical weapons are great achievements. Many of those conventions emerged out of the Second World War and this country's effort to fight the good fight. But they only really become practical achievements when they are backed up by deeds. I'd like to belong to a country which takes those conventions seriously and works to punish those regimes which piss all over them. You can't do it every time. It takes politics. But I don't see anything wrong - and I see plenty things right - with people wanting this country to be in the vanguard of those nations which take their international responsibilities seriously. It would be a good thing.  That's what's meant by Britain's 'standing in the world'.
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Offline B0151?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #342 on: August 30, 2013, 03:12:07 pm »
But the vote last night did not say we, the people of the UK, feel that the atrocities are 'none of our business.' What the vote said is that we, the people of the UK, are sceptical that dropping bombs is going to improve the situation. This is, as Cameron correctly identified, connected to our retrospective judgement about Blair and Iraq.

And it's not like they can't change their mind if better justification is presented, no?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #343 on: August 30, 2013, 03:24:46 pm »
Red Cross says military action against Assad would trigger more displacement and exacerbate humanitarian need.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/29/us-syria-crisis-redcross-idUSBRE97S0MY20130829

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #344 on: August 30, 2013, 03:28:48 pm »
But I don't see anything wrong - and I see plenty things right - with people wanting this country to be in the vanguard of those nations which take their international responsibilities seriously. It would be a good thing.  That's what's meant by Britain's 'standing in the world'.
Fair enough. But as Cameron pointed out, that well's been poisoned.

One thing I don't quite understand is why the vote had to mean "we'll never get involved" which seems to be being reported.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #345 on: August 30, 2013, 03:35:04 pm »
Fair enough. But as Cameron pointed out, that well's been poisoned.

One thing I don't quite understand is why the vote had to mean "we'll never get involved" which seems to be being reported.

Will there not be another vote should some more compelling evidence arise?  I am just confused about why it's taken Chemical Weapons before the world has considered action in Syria.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #346 on: August 30, 2013, 03:40:40 pm »
I'm not quite sure what you contribute to this thread except your usual sneer. But for the record I did not edit anything in the lad's post (or change its meaning in any way) unlike you have just done with mine.

You removed his entire fucking argument. Other than that, you didn't alter it at all, no.

I'd be interested to know what you mean by "my usual sneer" since most of my contributions on RAWK these days are in the photograph thread, the bird watching thread, the shaving thread and the espresso machines thread.

I tend to avoid this forum like the plague on all but the most vital threads on account of characters like yourself and Corkboy who appoint yourselves as guardians of RAWK's moral compass.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 03:47:12 pm by ۩ Imperator ۩ »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #347 on: August 30, 2013, 03:50:31 pm »
Yorky, please don't feed the troll.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #348 on: August 30, 2013, 03:53:44 pm »
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In a free state there should be freedom of speech and thought.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #349 on: August 30, 2013, 03:56:31 pm »
That's what's meant by Britain's 'standing in the world'.

On both this and the (apparent) public views in America, is this one of those times where you think the populace needs to be told what the right thing to do is?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #350 on: August 30, 2013, 03:58:27 pm »
Yorky, please don't feed the troll.

Correct.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #351 on: August 30, 2013, 04:11:42 pm »
Interestingly, last night's vote has caused moderate sections of the French media to call for François Hollande to treat the French parliament's vote (slated for 4 September) as binding, in the same way as Cameron appears to have done (for now).

Quote
Le Parlement britannique vient d'infliger un camouflet sévère au premier ministre David Cameron en désapprouvant, dans la nuit du jeudi 29 au vendredi 30 août, le principe d'une intervention militaire en Syrie. Il n'était pas tenu de respecter le vœu de son Parlement, mais avait annoncé au préalable qu'il suivrait sa décision, ce qu'il a confirmé après le vote. Le tout dans un contexte de méfiance de la part de l'opinion publique, échaudée par l'intervention irakienne de 2003, qui avait été justifiée à l'époque par des "preuves" d'armes chimiques qui s'étaient révélées fausses.
Lire l'entretien exclusif avec François Hollande "Il ne s'agit pas de renverser le dictateur syrien"

Un tel scénario est-il possible en France ? François Hollande va, lui aussi, consulter le Parlement, le 4 septembre, au sujet de l'intervention. Mais, comme en Grande-Bretagne, ce vote n'a qu'une valeur consultative. Et un refus des députés n'empêcherait pas le chef de l'Etat de tout de même intervenir.

Ce sont les articles 16 et 35 de la Constitution qui définissent les  modalités démocratiques d'une intervention armée. Elles sont minimales et dépendent du contexte.

En cas d'urgence
Le chef de l'Etat, également chef des armées, a le pouvoir (article 16 de la Constitution) de "prendre les mesures exigées par les circonstances" en matière d'intégrité du territoire et de respect des "engagements internationaux" de la nation dès lors que celle-ci fait face à une menace "grave et immédiate". Dans ce cas, il doit informer la nation, tandis que le Parlement est nécessairement réuni, et ne peut être dissous. Le président peut ensuite, durant trente jours, exercer des "pouvoirs exceptionnels".

La réforme constitutionnelle de 2008 a ajouté un garde-fou à cet article, critiqué notamment par François Mitterrand (qui ne l'a pas modifié pour autant une fois qu'il a été élu chef de l'Etat) et qui n'a été utilisé qu'une seule fois durant le putsch des généraux, à Alger en 1961 : après trente jours, le président de l'Assemblée, celui du Sénat ou soixante parlementaires peuvent saisir le Conseil constitutionnel d'examiner si les conditions de l'article 16 sont toujours réunies. Le Conseil se réunit aussi au bout de soixante jours d'exercice des pouvoirs exceptionnels.

Hors cas d'urgence
Le Parlement n'a que peu son mot à dire, dans tous les cas. Il doit nécessairement approuver une déclaration de guerre (article 35), mais la France n'a plus déclaré la guerre depuis 1940. Lorsque, comme pour la Syrie, le pays ne fait pas face à un danger imminent et que l'article 16 n'est pas invoqué, le Parlement n'est pas nécessairement impliqué immédiatement. En réalité, avant la révision constitutionnelle de 2008, il n'avait tout simplement pas son mot à dire.

Depuis 2008, l'article 35 a quelque peu renforcé le contrôle parlementaire sur l'emploi de la force armée. Mais ce pouvoir reste limité.  S'il doit être informé par le gouvernement de toute intervention des forces armées "au plus tard trois jours après le début de l'information", notamment sur "les objectifs suivis", le Parlement n'a la possibilité ni de les approuver ni de les désapprouver : "Cette information peut donner lieu à un débat qui n'est suivi d'aucun vote", précise le 2e alinéa.

Ce n'est qu'au bout de quatre mois d'intervention que le gouvernement "soumet sa prolongation à l'autorisation du Parlement". Et ce dernier peut, cette fois – en théorie –, refuser de prolonger une intervention. Depuis 2008, l'Assemblée a été consultée deux fois : le 22 septembre 2008 sur l'Afghanistan, et le 28 janvier 2009, où elle a autorisé la prolongation de cinq interventions à la fois (Tchad, République centrafricaine, Liban et Kosovo).

En théorie, le Parlement pourrait désormais refuser la prolongation d'une opération décidée par l'exécutif. Mais le cas ne s'est encore jamais produit.
Source - Le Monde

The widely held view was that, come what may, Hollande would do whatever he felt expedient, since his executive powers as President allow him this. There is a groundswell of opinion in France (and in French social media) that the British course of action is a game-changer for France.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 04:14:16 pm by ۩ Imperator ۩ »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #352 on: August 30, 2013, 04:21:02 pm »
Jeremy Bowen BBC Middle East editor says: "I've spoken to some of the people on the inside of the regime here in Syria who are cock-a-hoop about Britain's decision not to go ahead with joining in an American-led operation against the Assad regime. They believe it counts as a victory for them."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/23896617

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #355 on: August 30, 2013, 04:32:39 pm »
Haven't China got the largest military? If I was the US I'd think twice about Syria.

The US military budget is about four times China's.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #356 on: August 30, 2013, 04:35:05 pm »
Jeremy Bowen BBC Middle East editor says: "I've spoken to some of the people on the inside of the regime here in Syria who are cock-a-hoop about Britain's decision not to go ahead with joining in an American-led operation against the Assad regime. They believe it counts as a victory for them."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/23896617

I for one do not believe that Jeremy Bowen has spoken to anyone inside the regime. The man is an incompetent, who had already been promoted beyond his capabilities when he was presenting BBC breakfast.

His record of breaching BBC guidelines on accuracy and impartiality speaks for itself.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 04:39:01 pm by ۩ Imperator ۩ »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #357 on: August 30, 2013, 05:38:24 pm »
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EXCLUSIVE: Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack
Rebels and local residents in Ghouta accuse Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan of providing chemical weapons to an al-Qaida linked rebel group.

By Dale Gavlak and Yahya Ababneh | August 29, 2013
This article is a collaboration between Dale Gavlak reporting for Mint Press News (also of the Associated Press) and Yahya Ababneh.

Ghouta, Syria — As the machinery for a U.S.-led military intervention in Syria gathers pace following last week’s chemical weapons attack, the U.S. and its allies may be targeting the wrong culprit.

Interviews with people in Damascus and Ghouta, a suburb of the Syrian capital, where the humanitarian agency Doctors Without Borders said at least 355 people had died last week from what it believed to be a neurotoxic agent, appear to indicate as much.

The U.S., Britain, and France as well as the Arab League have accused the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad for carrying out the chemical weapons attack, which mainly targeted civilians. U.S. warships are stationed in the Mediterranean Sea to launch military strikes against Syria in punishment for carrying out a massive chemical weapons attack. The U.S. and others are not interested in examining any contrary evidence, with U.S Secretary of State John Kerry saying Monday that Assad’s guilt was “a judgment … already clear to the world.”

However, from numerous interviews with doctors, Ghouta residents, rebel fighters and their families, a different picture emerges. Many believe that certain rebels received chemical weapons via the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and were responsible for carrying out the dealing gas attack.

“My son came to me two weeks ago asking what I thought the weapons were that he had been asked to carry,” said Abu Abdel-Moneim, the father of a rebel fighting to unseat Assad, who lives in Ghouta.

Abdel-Moneim said his son and 12 other rebels were killed inside of a tunnel used to store weapons provided by a Saudi militant, known as Abu Ayesha, who was leading a fighting battalion. The father described the weapons as having a “tube-like structure” while others were like a “huge gas bottle.”

Ghouta townspeople said the rebels were using mosques and private houses to sleep while storing their weapons in tunnels.

Abdel-Moneim said his son and the others died during the chemical weapons attack. That same day, the militant group Jabhat al-Nusra, which is linked to al-Qaida, announced that it would similarly attack civilians in the Assad regime’s heartland of Latakia on Syria’s western coast, in purported retaliation.

“They didn’t tell us what these arms were or how to use them,” complained a female fighter named ‘K.’ “We didn’t know they were chemical weapons. We never imagined they were chemical weapons.”

“When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them,” she warned. She, like other Syrians, do not want to use their full names for fear of retribution.

A well-known rebel leader in Ghouta named ‘J’ agreed. “Jabhat al-Nusra militants do not cooperate with other rebels, except with fighting on the ground. They do not share secret information. They merely used some ordinary rebels to carry and operate this material,” he said.

“We were very curious about these arms. And unfortunately, some of the fighters handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions,” ‘J’ said.

Doctors who treated the chemical weapons attack victims cautioned interviewers to be careful about asking questions regarding who, exactly, was responsible for the deadly assault.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #358 on: August 30, 2013, 06:21:40 pm »
Have to say that was a powerful speech from Kerry a few moments ago.  Whether everything he said is true, who really knows at times like these, but sounds like they're readying the American people for military strikes.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #359 on: August 30, 2013, 06:31:09 pm »
I haven't exactly kept up with this one or read the thread.

But it strikes me as odd, this has been going on for how long, two years? The US and the rest of the world has been content to sit back and do nothing, while they kill each other (because its really fucking complex and just easier to stay out of it)

The Assad regime know the one thing likely to make the US/international community intervene is the use of chemical/biological weapons. The last thing they want is the US bombing them, so why go and do the one thing that is likely to make that happen? Its very strange, they could just carry on shelling and shooting the rebels and get away with it.

Last desperate act of a regime on the way out? Or just really dumb?

Then again fuck all was done when Saddam was gassing the Kurds, so its reasonable for them to think they will get away with it.

Is there maybe a realisation that since Syria has these weapons, if/when the regime falls, who knows what hands those weapons will end up in. In all likelihood frigging nutters, because the rebels seem to be made up of AQ and various factions. So strategic thinking might be that's its best to get in there and take them out now while they can?
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