Author Topic: Jamie Carragher  (Read 136222 times)

Offline RobbieRedman

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,045
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #840 on: October 22, 2019, 07:53:50 pm »
Posted in Racism in Football thread but relevant here too

https://twitter.com/i/status/1186715956405559296

Ferdinand on Carra & Liverpool re:Suarez

Offline Hazell

  • Ultimate Movie Night Draft Winner 2017. King - or Queen - of Mystery. Hyzenthlay. The 5th Benitle's sex conch.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 77,118
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #841 on: October 22, 2019, 08:01:20 pm »
well that much is true  ;D

No bugger comes out well from it, including Evra quite frankly, the guy is a grade a c*nt, everyone knows that.


That much everyone can agree on.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,230
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #842 on: October 22, 2019, 08:18:17 pm »
Well Sky have been successful in stirring the eight year old tub of shit, haven't they?


Offline goalrushatgoodison

  • crapinbed
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,317
  • Still waiting for the great leap forward.
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #843 on: October 22, 2019, 09:05:26 pm »
Where exactly did the "negrito" argument come from? I remember the pseudo lawyers, lip readers and their Uruguyan grannies all rolled out the negrito defence before the report was published, but in the actual report, Suarez admits to calling Evra a negro and not negrito? In the report there's 292 references to "negro" and 3 for "negrita" or "negrito". I don't understand where the revisionism is coming from.

Suarez's argument seemed to be thus: he was playing against against fierce rivals. He kicked a player from said rivals. They had a verbal dispute. He admitted to saying ""Por que, negro?" and we're to believe he meant it as, in the heat of the moment, a friendly and conciliatory term. Because that's how Liverpool/Man United players behave.

Apologies for the error but its hardly revisionism. My, now obviously mistaken, reference to negrita was hardly instrumental to my post. if you replace it with negro it doesn''t change the gist of my post at all which was supporting the suggestion that Evra wasn't telling the truth about the amount of times Suarez called him "black".

Those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.

Offline lukeb1981

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,587
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #844 on: October 22, 2019, 11:37:07 pm »
Posted in Racism in Football thread but relevant here too
someone needs to post up the clip of him parading around old Trafford With the league trophy  singing Songs about Liverpool fans being murderers .

Offline DangerScouse

  • "You picked on the wrong city!"
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,777
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #845 on: October 22, 2019, 11:59:48 pm »
someone needs to post up the clip of him parading around old Trafford With the league trophy  singing Songs about Liverpool fans being murderers .

It was in Moscow and don't you know, that club gets a free pass when mocking the dead.

Offline DangerScouse

  • "You picked on the wrong city!"
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,777
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 12:14:19 am by DangerScouse »

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,471
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #847 on: October 23, 2019, 12:25:00 am »
I wasn’t embarrassed at the time to believe Luis over Evra and I’m not embarrassed that I still do.

Me neither. Suarez was a right c*nt on the pitch for us and for whomever he was representing but Evra was/is a nasty c*nt full stop. His story was clear fabrication borne from the on field spat with Suarez who'd made a right gobshite of him right in front of us [Kop end/Main stand corner]. Made use of his colour to turn the 'spat' into a race issue 'bought' by a pathetic FA and British right wing media desperate to assume the high ground over the kick out racism issue which at the time the FA just so conveniently happened to be promoting.

As for 'clothes line ' Carragher. Overly simplistic Jamie just blows with the fucking wind and bows to his paymasters.

And as for the self-righteous pious twats on here. Fuck me. Is this a Liverpool or middle fucking England forum or fucking what?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 12:28:00 am by Timbo's Goals »

Offline Vinay

  • West Coast privileges revoked due to jinxing activity. Considerably more greedier than yaow!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,771
  • Ceux qui écrivent clairement ont des lecteurs.....
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #848 on: October 23, 2019, 07:42:54 am »
I never liked the bloke, really. But now he is a confirmed grade A pillock for pandering to that c*** Evra.

Offline red_Mark1980

  • Wool ginger runner
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,609
  • J.F.T.97
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #849 on: October 23, 2019, 09:17:00 am »
Suarez did admit to using it once.

Now that time has passed and we can reflect no-one comes off in a great line.

Reckon we all just move on. Bigger things happening

Offline Clayton Bigsby

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,489
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #850 on: October 23, 2019, 09:24:19 am »
Once is enough to be honest

Offline redgriffin73

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,629
  • Thanks for everything Rafa. Nunca Caminarás Solo.
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #851 on: October 23, 2019, 10:45:15 am »
Me neither. Suarez was a right c*nt on the pitch for us and for whomever he was representing but Evra was/is a nasty c*nt full stop. His story was clear fabrication borne from the on field spat with Suarez who'd made a right gobshite of him right in front of us [Kop end/Main stand corner]. Made use of his colour to turn the 'spat' into a race issue 'bought' by a pathetic FA and British right wing media desperate to assume the high ground over the kick out racism issue which at the time the FA just so conveniently happened to be promoting.

As for 'clothes line ' Carragher. Overly simplistic Jamie just blows with the fucking wind and bows to his paymasters.

And as for the self-righteous pious twats on here. Fuck me. Is this a Liverpool or middle fucking England forum or fucking what?

One of my main issues with Evra was the fact that it was reported (in the Echo I think) that Merseyside Police asked him if he wished to make an official complaint directly after the game and he refused. I think we all know how it would have gone if it had gone down a proper legal route instead of a kangaroo court.
Rafa Benitez: "I'll always keep in my heart the good times I've had here, the strong and loyal support of the fans in the tough times and the love from Liverpool. I have no words to thank you enough for all these years and I am very proud to say that I was your manager. Thank you so much once more and always remember: You'll never walk alone."

Offline Dench57

  • Self-confessed tit. Can't sit still. She's got the hippy hippy crack.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,887
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #852 on: October 23, 2019, 11:40:41 am »
Once is enough to be honest

Calling him negro once is fine apparently :D RAWK is still proper weird on this one long after Suarez has left

Didn't realise Rio had called for LFC as a club to apologise now though 8 years later. He can get fucked.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 11:42:53 am by Dench57 »
Loving Everton's business this summer. Here's an early call - they finish above Liverpool this season.
- Richard Keys (@richardajkeys) July 9, 2017

Offline paulrazor

  • Dreams of a handjob from Timmy Mallett. Chronicler of seasons past. Cares more than Prelude Nr 5, or does he? No chance of getting a banana at his house.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,752
  • Take me 2 the magic of the moment on a glory night
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #853 on: October 23, 2019, 11:48:12 am »
Calling him negro once is fine apparently :D RAWK is still proper weird on this one long after Suarez has left

Didn't realise Rio had called for LFC as a club to apologise now though 8 years later. He can get fucked.
thats the problem with this being dragged up 8 years later

few people out of the woodwork now.

yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,513
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #854 on: October 23, 2019, 02:36:09 pm »
Calling him negro once is fine apparently :D RAWK is still proper weird on this one long after Suarez has left

Didn't realise Rio had called for LFC as a club to apologise now though 8 years later. He can get fucked.
I'm not so sure it is. Someone posted an interesting Guardian article a page or so back.
Bear in mind that Suarez could barely speak English at that point and that Evra's Spanish was basic.

For clarity, if Suarez said negro once in the context of an English conversation, it would not be alright, but I do not believe he did.

This is typical Liverpool though, someone says something - Carragher in this case - and people feel free to pile in. This one should have been left firmly in the past and maybe we need to get better at reminding the likes of Ferdinand that he's far from perfect given his Moscow nonsense.

Offline puroresu_kid

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,060
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #855 on: October 23, 2019, 04:38:06 pm »
Whether Suraez was guilty or innocent is irrelevant.  The club should never have went with those t-shirts. 

How that idea was greenlit I dont know.  The club could easily have said they didn't believe Suarez used a racist slur without having to print t-shirts for the Manager and players to wear. 

Now I dont think Carragher wouldn't of known what was happening and secondly I dont believe anyone would have been forced to wear one.  Nobody came out of this looking good but the club certainly went about it the wrong way.
 

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,471
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #856 on: October 23, 2019, 04:46:29 pm »
thats the problem with this being dragged up 8 years later

few people out of the woodwork now.



Please clarify what you mean if you'd be so kind.

Offline wah00ey

  • Gappy Gumbo, especially at the back.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,192
  • Stay away from Twitter, it's no good for anyone.
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #857 on: October 23, 2019, 04:52:26 pm »
This all makes me feel very uneasy.  We should not be apologising to them in any way over this.  The t-shirts were not a great idea but Suarez was hung out to dry by Evra who lied through his teeth, and by the FA with their entirely one-sided and agenda-driven investigation into what happened.  There's no end game in our favour of dragging this up though, so we should just ignore them.  Disappointed in Carragher grovelling to that snide though.
Look up "Odious" in the dictionary and Martin Samuel is the given definition.  Call me Klopphooey please.

Offline paulrazor

  • Dreams of a handjob from Timmy Mallett. Chronicler of seasons past. Cares more than Prelude Nr 5, or does he? No chance of getting a banana at his house.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,752
  • Take me 2 the magic of the moment on a glory night
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #858 on: October 23, 2019, 04:57:04 pm »
Please clarify what you mean if you'd be so kind.
Ferdinand demanding an apology 8 years later. i find it a bit weird
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

Offline wah00ey

  • Gappy Gumbo, especially at the back.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,192
  • Stay away from Twitter, it's no good for anyone.
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #859 on: October 23, 2019, 05:15:17 pm »
Ferdinand demanding an apology 8 years later. i find it a bit weird
It's a very unsubtle attempt to destabilise us.  And Carragher has swallowed the hook nice and deep.
Look up "Odious" in the dictionary and Martin Samuel is the given definition.  Call me Klopphooey please.

Offline I've been a good boy

  • "There are two ways of spreading light; to be the candle or the mirror that receives it." Loves a good set of open flaps. And a bowl of Coco Poops! No chance of getting a coffee in his house.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,236
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #860 on: October 23, 2019, 05:27:56 pm »
Fuck Carragher and fuck Ferdinand. Pair of shit-stirring, brown-nosed twats.

Offline Coolie High

  • bury Regular. My opinions are facts, FYI. (whisper it but doesn't understand midfielders)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,983
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #861 on: October 23, 2019, 06:45:28 pm »
Apologies for the error but its hardly revisionism. My, now obviously mistaken, reference to negrita was hardly instrumental to my post. if you replace it with negro it doesn''t change the gist of my post at all which was supporting the suggestion that Evra wasn't telling the truth about the amount of times Suarez called him "black".

Why did Suarez have to mention his colour in  the first place? I've had a few racist encounters in the past and my thinking is, out of all the nasty things you could say about my ugly face ;D, you chose to reference my colour first?

Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,606
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #862 on: October 23, 2019, 06:46:33 pm »
Whether Suraez was guilty or innocent is irrelevant.  The club should never have went with those t-shirts. 

How that idea was greenlit I dont know.  The club could easily have said they didn't believe Suarez used a racist slur without having to print t-shirts for the Manager and players to wear. 

Now I dont think Carragher wouldn't of known what was happening and secondly I dont believe anyone would have been forced to wear one.  Nobody came out of this looking good but the club certainly went about it the wrong way.

Because there was amateurs running the club. Comolli messed up in the immediate aftermath and Ayre did what he always did when the going got tough - disappeared.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,606
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #863 on: October 23, 2019, 06:49:29 pm »
This all makes me feel very uneasy.  We should not be apologising to them in any way over this.  The t-shirts were not a great idea but Suarez was hung out to dry by Evra who lied through his teeth, and by the FA with their entirely one-sided and agenda-driven investigation into what happened.  There's no end game in our favour of dragging this up though, so we should just ignore them.  Disappointed in Carragher grovelling to that snide though.

Wouldn't expect any different. He spent most of his book brown nosing Ferguson, even though it came out just after the Rafa facts rant.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,471
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #864 on: October 23, 2019, 06:59:02 pm »
Ferdinand demanding an apology 8 years later. i find it a bit weird

Ah. I see.

Absolutely right mate but I think 'weird' only just about begins to cover it. Throw in deluded, disingenuous, sick, vindictive, media driven, hypocritical plus a few other closely aligned adjectives and it might get a bit closer to conveying what's going on here.

As Red Griffin said above the kangaroo court proceedings which chose to deem Evra the 'reliable witness' and Suarez the 'unreliable witness' thus providing the morons appointed by the FA to preside over those proceedings with their pre-determined diktat to find Suarez guilty of breaking the FA's arbitrary laws on what constituted racism was as disgusting and self-serving an aberration of justice in such 'petty spat 'circumstances as there has very likely ever been. An utter fucking injustice and disgrace to boot.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 07:00:55 pm by Timbo's Goals »

Offline Wool

  • eBack
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,496
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #865 on: October 23, 2019, 07:05:03 pm »
I’d just like to point out once again that some of you - as white men - on this forum and among the fan base in general are telling a black man what words he should and shouldn’t find racially offensive. And you don’t think there’s anything off about that.

Offline puroresu_kid

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,060
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #866 on: October 23, 2019, 08:10:04 pm »
I’d just like to point out once again that some of you - as white men - on this forum and among the fan base in general are telling a black man what words he should and shouldn’t find racially offensive. And you don’t think there’s anything off about that.

This

Offline God's Left Peg

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,816
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #867 on: October 23, 2019, 08:42:47 pm »
I wasn’t embarrassed at the time to believe Luis over Evra and I’m not embarrassed that I still do.

Nailed it. Thank you very much.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life."

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,097
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #868 on: October 23, 2019, 11:44:45 pm »
I’d just like to point out once again that some of you - as white men - on this forum and among the fan base in general are telling a black man what words he should and shouldn’t find racially offensive. And you don’t think there’s anything off about that.
Has anyone said Evra had no right to be offended? What people seem to have a problem with, rightly or wrongly, is the automatic assumption of racist intent on Suarez's behalf.

Offline Chakan

  • Chaka Chaka.....is in love with Aristotle but only for votes. The proud owner of some very private piles and an inflatable harem! Winner of RAWK's Carabao Cup captian contest.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 91,079
  • Internet Terrorist lvl VI
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #869 on: October 23, 2019, 11:46:08 pm »
I’m so happy we’re all discussing this again. Been far too long.

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,471
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #870 on: October 24, 2019, 12:07:52 am »
I’d just like to point out once again that some of you - as white men - on this forum and among the fan base in general are telling a black man what words he should and shouldn’t find racially offensive. And you don’t think there’s anything off about that.

Let's be clear.

True racism is evil. Casual racism lags not far behind. This tawdry episode, however, was not about racism but rather about three entirely different things albeit each in this instance inevitably tied up with the broader racist concept.

First, dishonesty and lies, whereby a snide twat of a man lied through his back teeth, aided and abetted by his equally snide opportunist manager to employ the twat of a man's black skin colour to attempt to brand another man with mixed race skin colour as a racist.

Second, convenient exemplary scapegoating, whereby a decrepit organisation attempted and succeeded in making use of the aforementioned situation invented by the snide lying twat to highlight how resolute they were in their stance to 'kick out racism'.

Third, scurrilous media oversimplification and misrepresentation, whereby our contemptible British media fed upon the episode and its kangaroo court outcome like a shoal of piranhas to brand for life the 'fall guy' as racist and the snide lying twat as an innocent victim of the fall guy's fabricated racism.

It fucking stunk back then and it still fucking stinks now and still needs calling out for the insult it is to those unfortunate souls who truly have been and still are scarred by real racial abuse and/or persecution.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 12:31:19 am by Timbo's Goals »

Offline Dim Glas

  • Die Nullfünfer.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,489
  • Michael Sheen is the actual Prince of 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #871 on: October 24, 2019, 01:04:07 am »
I’d just like to point out once again that some of you - as white men - on this forum and among the fan base in general are telling a black man what words he should and shouldn’t find racially offensive. And you don’t think there’s anything off about that.

I'm amazed that in 2019, there are some here who still don't think women post on football forums.


Offline Coolie High

  • bury Regular. My opinions are facts, FYI. (whisper it but doesn't understand midfielders)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,983
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #872 on: October 24, 2019, 03:23:59 am »
Has anyone said Evra had no right to be offended? What people seem to have a problem with, rightly or wrongly, is the automatic assumption of racist intent on Suarez's behalf.

Why bring race into it in the first place? I'm sorry but as a person of colour, the blame solely lays at the hands of Suarez, if he simply used another description to label Evra such as referencing his height, there would be no problem, he purposely chose to highlight his skin colour, whether subliminally or not it was the wrong thing, and on retrospect,  i can't for the life of me why people still feel the need to defend him, i can only think such people aren't from the same background as me and others, and don't share the same experiences....

Offline perspectiveplease

  • getsomethenstopwastingourbandwidth!
  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #873 on: October 24, 2019, 06:20:26 am »
Why bring race into it in the first place? I'm sorry but as a person of colour, the blame solely lays at the hands of Suarez, if he simply used another description to label Evra such as referencing his height, there would be no problem, he purposely chose to highlight his skin colour, whether subliminally or not it was the wrong thing, and on retrospect,  i can't for the life of me why people still feel the need to defend him, i can only think such people aren't from the same background as me and others, and don't share the same experiences....

Agreed. Certain posters seem to be cherrypicking and willfully overlooking the fact that Suarez himself admitted to calling Evra a negro.

Again, to quote from the report and Suarez's defence, it doesn't matter whether it was 1 or 7 times that Suarez called him a negro. Suarez admitted to doing it at least once. That was wholly inappropriate:

Quote
Mr Suarez denied the Charge. His case, in short, was as follows. He agreed with Mr Evra
that they spoke to each other in Spanish in the goalmouth. When Mr Evra asked why he
had kicked him, Mr Suarez replied that it was a normal foul and shrugged his shoulders.
Mr Evra then said that he was going to kick Mr Suarez, to which Mr Suarez told him to
shut up. As Mr Kuyt was approaching, Mr Suarez touched Mr Evra's left arm in a
pinching style movement. According to Mr Suarez, at no point in the goalmouth did he
use the word "negro". When the referee blew his whistle to stop play, Mr Evra spoke to Mr
Suarez and said (in English) "Don't touch me, South American". Mr Suarez replied "Por
que, negro?". He says that he used the word “negro” in a way with which he was familiar
from his upbringing in Uruguay. In this sense, Mr Suarez claimed, it is used as a noun and
as a friendly form of address to people seen as black or brown-skinned (or even just black
haired). Thus, it meant "Why, black?" Mr Suarez maintained that when he said "Por que,
negro?" to Mr Evra, it was intended in a conciliatory and friendly way. Mr Suarez said this
was the only time that he used the word “negro” in his exchanges with Mr Evra during
the match.

Offline Vinay

  • West Coast privileges revoked due to jinxing activity. Considerably more greedier than yaow!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,771
  • Ceux qui écrivent clairement ont des lecteurs.....
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #874 on: October 24, 2019, 09:36:16 am »
Why did Suarez have to mention his colour in  the first place? I've had a few racist encounters in the past and my thinking is, out of all the nasty things you could say about my ugly face ;D, you chose to reference my colour first?
I don't want to go into this discussion again, but you have to read Suarez's version of events. 'Negro' in common spanish, and even in street french, does not at all mean the same thing that Evra wanted the world to believe it means in English.

Offline mikey_LFC

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,458
  • At the End of a Storm there's a Golden Sky.
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #875 on: October 24, 2019, 10:28:07 am »
Agreed. Certain posters seem to be cherrypicking and willfully overlooking the fact that Suarez himself admitted to calling Evra a negro.

Again, to quote from the report and Suarez's defence, it doesn't matter whether it was 1 or 7 times that Suarez called him a negro. Suarez admitted to doing it at least once. That was wholly inappropriate:

Quote
Mr Suarez denied the Charge. His case, in short, was as follows. He agreed with Mr Evra
that they spoke to each other in Spanish in the goalmouth. When Mr Evra asked why he
had kicked him, Mr Suarez replied that it was a normal foul and shrugged his shoulders.
Mr Evra then said that he was going to kick Mr Suarez, to which Mr Suarez told him to
shut up. As Mr Kuyt was approaching, Mr Suarez touched Mr Evra's left arm in a
pinching style movement. According to Mr Suarez, at no point in the goalmouth did he
use the word "negro". When the referee blew his whistle to stop play, Mr Evra spoke to Mr
Suarez and said (in English) "Don't touch me, South American". Mr Suarez replied "Por
que, negro?". He says that he used the word “negro” in a way with which he was familiar
from his upbringing in Uruguay. In this sense, Mr Suarez claimed, it is used as a noun and
as a friendly form of address to people seen as black or brown-skinned (or even just black
haired). Thus, it meant "Why, black?" Mr Suarez maintained that when he said "Por que,
negro?" to Mr Evra, it was intended in a conciliatory and friendly way. Mr Suarez said this
was the only time that he used the word “negro” in his exchanges with Mr Evra during
the match.

Was it wholly inappropriate for Evra to bring Suarez's ethnic origin / nationality into it?

"Don't touch me, South American" seems to have negative connotations about the difference in class or societal level between Europeans and South Americans, labeling them almost as dirty.

This was said in English, a language we all have a greater understanding of the intent and historical context of statements such as this.

Most of us are far more ignorant around the use of a phrase like what Suarez used, in Spanish. Applying our own logic to another language simply doesn't work, nor does applying our own logic to another culture, and I don't think acting as though our culture is more sophisticated is the way to go either. Suggesting education is needed to bring foreign players in line with our culture so they can avoid causing offence is a suggestion layered with a sense of superiority.

The issue is more complicated than people would like to make out, this scenario had many more layers of social context on it than anyone cares to talk about today or at the time, whether in the media or in society. There isn't an easy answer and it is not an easy subject to make conclusions on.

None of this is to excuse Suarez completely, he'd have been better never having said anything but we are where we are and to hang Suarez out to dry and paint Evra as a victim of abuse is overblown in the extreme. I'm really just trying to demonstrate the issue with building an exaggerated narrative around an exchange like this, and laying down judgement based on who does or doesn't take offence, which is not a binary issue either.

Is one person's offence enough to make a statement offensive to the degree of a punishment, or is it a certain proportion of the group involved in the discourse that needs to be offended? How do we judge it when there is an incentive for someone to say they were offended, for example to gain an advantage over a rival?

I don't have the answers to these questions, but they are there and aren't particularly talked about openly when discussing a subject like this.

We can all agree offensive behaviour is something we want to get rid of, but what that entails is highly subjective. Case and point is the Divock Origi banner thread that opened last night and was subsequently locked. Many in there didn't see what was offensive, or disagreed on the degree of offense which some were suggesting. It seems a shame to lock that conversation as people keep saying it is a matter of educating, so having a thread open that can allow a conversation around the subject to take place between our fanbase is probably healthy, to allow people to see where there disagreements lie and understand different stand points.

Without a space to talk about it honestly and openly, I don't see how we are going to improve the situation. Just having a No Room for Racism weekend doesn't help when people have different ideas on what constitutes racism.
"A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are." - Bill Shankly

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,097
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #876 on: October 24, 2019, 10:29:22 am »
Why bring race into it in the first place? I'm sorry but as a person of colour, the blame solely lays at the hands of Suarez, if he simply used another description to label Evra such as referencing his height, there would be no problem, he purposely chose to highlight his skin colour, whether subliminally or not it was the wrong thing, and on retrospect,  i can't for the life of me why people still feel the need to defend him, i can only think such people aren't from the same background as me and others, and don't share the same experiences....
I'm not a POC but I am from a minority group and I've faced some fairly heinous shit from people in real life. I've also come across people who said offensive things out of ignorance and a lack of awareness rather than any intent to hurt or stigmatise.

In this case, I felt at the time and still do that an eight-match ban was the right call just on principle. But it's also credible to me that there could be cultural differences and Suarez didn't understand the level of offence involved with what he said. I honestly don't know enough about Latin and Latin American culture to know either way, and I don't recall anyone from that part of the world commenting on it throughout the whole affair. The ban was appropriate but I also think it drew a line under the case.

Having said that, it is simply a fact there was a pre-existing agenda against Suarez in the media that was itself tied into negative racial stereotypes (those of the cheating Latin, going back past Maradona and Rattin to the 1930's) and there still is, which is why he continues to be labelled with the racist brush while John Terry isn't. The T-shirts were always a bad idea though.

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,097
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #877 on: October 24, 2019, 10:38:47 am »
We can all agree offensive behaviour is something we want to get rid of, but what that entails is highly subjective. Case and point is the Divock Origi banner thread that opened last night and was subsequently locked. Many in there didn't see what was offensive, or disagreed on the degree of offense which some were suggesting. It seems a shame to lock that conversation as people keep saying it is a matter of educating, so having a thread open that can allow a conversation around the subject to take place between our fanbase is probably healthy, to allow people to see where there disagreements lie and understand different stand points.

Without a space to talk about it honestly and openly, I don't see how we are going to improve the situation. Just having a No Room for Racism weekend doesn't help when people have different ideas on what constitutes racism.
This is true but in practice those threads can end up with lots of posters determined to show something isn't racist drowning out the non-white posters, who feel they aren't being listened to and who end up feeling more isolated (I'm aware of the irony of posting that in this thread).

Offline Rush 82

  • Seth Iffricans don't take the dog out for a walk - they take the line out!
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,208
  • From Cape Town to Anfield
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #878 on: October 24, 2019, 10:57:58 am »
Why bring race into it in the first place? I'm sorry but as a person of colour, the blame solely lays at the hands of Suarez, if he simply used another description to label Evra such as referencing his height, there would be no problem, he purposely chose to highlight his skin colour, whether subliminally or not it was the wrong thing, and on retrospect,  i can't for the life of me why people still feel the need to defend him, i can only think such people aren't from the same background as me and others, and don't share the same experiences....
I’m a person of colour who grew up under the yoke of institutional racism (South Africa) and fully accept that Suarez had no racist intent.

Evra was a twat who used the situation for his own ends.

Timbo has described the whole affair perfectly.

Offline mikey_LFC

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,458
  • At the End of a Storm there's a Golden Sky.
Re: Jamie Carragher
« Reply #879 on: October 24, 2019, 11:03:51 am »
This is true but in practice those threads can end up with lots of posters determined to show something isn't racist drowning out the non-white posters, who feel they aren't being listened to and who end up feeling more isolated (I'm aware of the irony of posting that in this thread).

I can understand that. Maybe a structured format in the form of a Q&A would help matters. It is undoubtedly difficult to moderate but could be valuable, whereas shutting down the conversation doesn't feel like it can be.
"A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are." - Bill Shankly