Topic: Diving, cheating, timewasting & theatrics in football

[kelevra]

Here is him talking about it more. He makes a lot of sense and is unbiased about it imo.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq65vw_gary-neville-tells-it-like-it-is-on-diving_sport

Ye I've seen it. He is spot on IMO

[sinnermichael]

gordon taylor really is beyond belief. players have "no choice" but to cheat apparently.

[Theoldkopite]

I would just trust the FA, in conjunction with Gordon Taylor and the PFA to sort this out. Don't know what all the fuss is about. These two organisations have my utmost support and confidence.

[LiverLuke]

I would just trust the FA, in conjunction with Gordon Taylor and the PFA to sort this out. Don't know what all the fuss is about. These two organisations have my utmost support and confidence.

quite, a very respectful organisation that treats every issue with the same consistency and attention it deserves.

[farawayred]

quite, a very respectful organisation that treats every issue with the same consistency and attention it deserves.

Both organizations, in fact.

[Matt8Pie]

Hats off to Gary Neville in all fairness, brilliant pundit.

[hollger]

Great article by Gary Neville on the issue.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2126567/Gary-Neville-Andy-Carrolls-dive-laugh--zero-tolerance-wont-ground.html


From the article:

Solving the fake injuries/dives etc will be a lot harder than what people are suggesting here.

I don't read that as a "great article" at all. All I've taken from it is that football's now a global game, so because it's OK to cheat and simulate elsewhere we should change our values and accommodate the other people's way of doing things. I haven't watched the video that's been linked as I'm at work so I'll do that later, but all I took from that article was that Gary Neville was once a tough young boy who over the years has gradually been left in a moral daze because he's now confused at how you actually "win" a foul.

It's utter bollocks. What we need is people in charge that actually have a backbone, who will stand up and defend the right of the Premier League to be run how we want it run in this country. If this deters the 'foreign stars' from coming here to play in our league then fine, cheerio then we'll give the 200k/week to someone who actually wants to play by our standards. Personally I don't think it would - there's plenty of foreign players who've come over here and adjusted absolutely fine to the way we expect the game to be played (a perfect example being Klinsmann).

There are calls every week for the pulling and pushing in the penalty boxes to be sorted but each week the ref's just let it go. Sure, they act like they're clamping down on it by delaying the corner whilst they speak to a few offenders, but then as soon as they give the green light for the corner the players are all over each other. There's absolutely no spine - are the ref's scared to do something because their FA bosses will come down hard on them!? I was amazed to see a pen given for Barca the other week against Milan, but more of those given and attitudes will have to change.

Sadly we have people in charge that would rather bend over for their European colleagues than stand up to them. Our journalists are selective in their condemnation of players and there isn't a level playing field. Just how long has it taken for them to criticise Ashley Young? Just look at the comments from Gordon Taylor and Clark Carlisle - to stand there and actually come out with the stuff they do, really, I question their sanity. Managers, too - Ferguson and Wenger are prime examples. Take the Ashely Young charade - on the one hand Ferguson appears to be saying that it was wrong to go down like he did and almost condemning it - but in the same sentence he says 'there was contact, it was a definite penalty'. Incredible.

I'd absolutely love there to be a tough line taken on it but I know there certainly won't. The very best I can hope for is that when there are incidents like this that the player involved is actually ashamed enough by the media coverage to not do it again.

[StevenLFC]

Sometimes a magician performs a trick and we all lap it up. We know he's used deflection to trick us, but we don't mind because we see what we want to see. Most media outfits have fallen for some trickery this week; Tony Pulis' misdirection has fooled them into running with the diving debate instead of focusing on the over-physical and at times violent play of his side.


Nobody is mentioning Robert Huth's stamp on Luis Suarez - which the FA are unbelievably going to let go without punishment - or the fact that Stoke will be fined for having six players booked, (and that was actually quite low). There were about 20 yellow card tackles in that game, most coming from Huth and Charlie Adam but nobody is mentioning them. Instead we're all focusing on this 'foreigners ruin our game by diving' debate.


First of all, let me make this clear; Luis Suarez did dive and it's not to be condoned but many Liverpool fans believe he is being victimised here. Some of the best players to have played in this league such as Didier Drogba, Christiano Ronaldo and Jurgen Kilnsmann have dived at times. Don't just blame the foreigners though, after all British players such Danny Welbeck, Garath Bale and Ashley Young have dived in the recent past. We all acknowledge that these players have dived and we've all condemned them, but there were no calls to ban these players.


Secondly, is diving really THAT bad an offence? Is it worse than stamping on somebody? Of course it isn't! So why the big fuss over Suraez's dive yet no mentions the stamp? Diving is an offence that people seem to get on their high horses and vilify those who do it, but is it really that bad?


If a player dives then he will be booked, but afterwards he will be slaughtered by fans, pundits and managers. If a player commits a cheap foul on the halfway line, he'll be booked yet some might say "good foul to give away." So, we have two offences with the same punishment yet we accept them in different lights? Both are what you can call 'cheating' but one's ok and one's not? Why is that exactly?


I'm not condoning diving, but maybe we all need to calm down and stop over reacting to it and vilify those who carry out dangerous, reckless and violet acts instead of somebody going to ground too easily.


Diving is Not the Enemy

[PhilV]

I think it's made worse/people think it's necessery because some refs are so stupid and shit at their jobs they DO NOT give a foul unless you go to ground, a foul is a foul - sorry

[StevenLFC]

I just don't see why a booking for diving leads to more condemnation than a deliberate foul.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Let's face it, footballers are all a bunch of cheating  quilts. Even the 'hard ones' are as soft as shite.

Fannies all of them.

[Tommy_W]

I just don't see why a booking for diving leads to more condemnation than a deliberate foul.

Because football is a contact sport and fouls (deliberate or otherwise) are to be expected from time to time.

[StevenLFC]

Let's face it, footballers are all a bunch of cheating  quilts. Even the 'hard ones' are as soft as shite.

Fannies all of them.

Depends what you mean by cheating pal. Technically, fouling a player could be classed as cheating.

[StevenLFC]

Because football is a contact sport and fouls (deliberate or otherwise) are to be expected from time to time.

So we should accept deliberate fouls but not a dive?

[Spanish Fan]

It is worse.

[gazzalfc]

The problem is consistency. When is a dive a dive? 

It could be a dive and its a dive

It could be a dive but looks like a clean tackle

It could be a dive but it looks like a foul.

Each one of those could be a freekick to the defending team, a penalty to the attacking team, a booking for the diver or nothing at all.

There is zero consistency when it comes to 'simulation' and referee's refuse to deal with it.

[tomred]

I just don't see why a booking for diving leads to more condemnation than a deliberate foul.

I think it's a cultural thing. Diving is seen as foreign and deceitful, whereas a deliberate foul is somehow more manly and British.

[StevenLFC]

I think it's a cultural thing. Diving is seen as foreign and deceitful, whereas a deliberate foul is somehow more manly and British.

I'd agree, diving is inexcusable to some but kicking someone of the halfway line to break up play or "letting him know you're there" is ok.

[Tommy_W]

So we should accept deliberate fouls but not a dive?

What are you classing as a deliberate foul exactly? A deliberate foul doesn't necessarily mean deliberately trying to hurt someone.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I think it's a cultural thing. Diving is seen as foreign and deceitful, whereas a deliberate foul is somehow more manly and British.

The worst divers in the league have always been English.

You do get the odd mutant like Ronaldo and Nistelrooy, but the biggest divers have been English from the 70s onwards.

[Spanish Fan]

I think it's a cultural thing. Diving is seen as foreign and deceitful, whereas a deliberate foul is somehow more manly and British.

And a generation thing too. Latin countries have always been accused of diving, but watch any game from 20 30 years ago. Players barely dived compared to today, and they were so poor at it that you would immediately spot it. Maradona did dive some times, but his technique in that department was very poor compared to modern standards. That is the only part of the game where technique has improved. Practice makes perfect.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'd agree, diving is inexcusable to some but kicking someone of the halfway line to break up play or "letting him know you're there" is ok.

The problem with football is that they should allow retribution. Rather than sending someone off, you should give your opponent the opportunity to get a 'free kick'. That would be great. Would certainly lead to the attraction to see thugs like those knobheads that play for Stoke getting kicked up the arse rather than booked.

[StevenLFC]

What are you classing as a deliberate foul exactly? A deliberate foul doesn't necessarily mean deliberately trying to hurt someone.

Perhaps a blatant foul to stop a counter attack. It doesn't hurt anybody, you get a booking and the opposition get a free kick. Same consequences as diving, but diving is seen as 'much' worse.

[tomred]

And a generation thing too. Latin countries have always been accused of diving, but watch any game from 20 30 years ago. Players barely dived compared to today, and they were so poor at it that you would immediately spot it. Maradona did dive some times, but his technique in that department was very poor compared to modern standards. That is the only part of the game where technique has improved. Practice makes perfect.

Good point.

[Spanish Fan]

The worst divers in the league have always been English.

You do get the odd mutant like Ronaldo and Nistelrooy, but the biggest divers have been English from the 70s onwards.

really? I know Francis Lee was famous for that, but in general I would think English players were in the past very honest. Wasn't ricardo Villa told off by his teammates for diving, even though it won;t them a penalty? or was it an urban legend?

[west_london_red]

Its bad, but we havent reached the depths of the Spanish or Portugese level yet, which is about all we to cling on to.

[gregor]

No.

Don't give a fuck when our players dive, don't give a fuck when opposition players dive.

[StevenLFC]

Its bad, but we havent reached the depths of the Spanish or Portugese level yet, which is about all we to cling on to.

Did you read the article at all?

[BoRed]

Diving is when you know you haven't been fouled, but you're asking the ref to give a foul. That is really no different from knowing you've just fouled a player and you're telling the ref you haven't. It is also no different from asking for a goal kick when you know you've actually just given away a corner. These are things everyone does all the time, and I've never heard anyone get criticised for it. We've all see goals scored from corners that were not given, and the typical response is to say it's the referee's fault for getting it wrong. Not once did I hear someone say the player who claimed it was a corner was a cheat.

It's much ado about nothing, really. It's not nice to see, but it's no worse than any other form of cheating. It's certainly no worse than shirt-pulling in the area, and all we ever hear about that is "ooh, he was lucky to get away with it" or, even worse, "if those were given we'd have ten penalties in each game". We never hear "he should be banned for three games for that."

[StevenLFC]

Diving is when you know you haven't been fouled, but you're asking the ref to give a foul. That is really no different from knowing you've just fouled a player and you're telling the ref you haven't. It is also no different from asking for a goal kick when you know you've actually just given away a corner. These are things everyone does all the time, and I've never heard anyone get criticised for it. We've all see goals scored from corners that were not given, and the typical response is to say it's the referee's fault for getting it wrong. Not once did I hear someone say the player who claimed it was a corner was a cheat.

It's much ado about nothing, really. It's not nice to see, but it's no worse than any other form of cheating. It's certainly no worse than shirt-pulling in the area, and all we ever hear about that is "ooh, he was lucky to get away with it" or, even worse, "if those were given we'd have ten penalties in each game". We never hear "he should be banned for three games for that."

Some good points there.

[Spanish Fan]

By the way, another plague in modern football, especially in Spanish football these days is players simulating injury or great pain to waste time.

 Now any minor incident and the whole team demand that the game is stopped. No wonder games do not last anywhere near the 90 minutes with the ball in play.



And not, it wasn't always like that.

Two career ending tackles (literally) with players trying to walk it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSNctg_yIWU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHcQ0cpJw1o

[west_london_red]

Did you read the article at all?

Yes, I did but yes I could also have been clearer I suppose!

It is that bad, we fume when people dived against us such as Valencia (the player) so it would be hypocritical to now says its not such a bad thing after all the focus is on us.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Someone I know suggested the following solution to timewasting, gurning, acting like a baby and being a wuss.

RULE CHANGE: THE GAME LASTS 60 MINUTES

RULE CHANGE: 30 MINUTES EACH HALF

RULE CHANGE: WHENEVER A CORNER, FREEKICK, THROW IN, INJURY ETC. OCCURS. THE CLOCK IS STOPPED. THE CLOCK REMAINS STOPPED UNTIL THE BALL GOES INTO PLAY. THE CLOCK IS CLEARLY VISIBLE TO THE CROWD, MANAGERS, PLAYERS AND TV. WHEN THE CLOCK TIMER REACHES 60 MINUTES THE GAME STOPS. ANYTHING OCCURRING AFTER THE CLOCK IS STOPPED ISN'T COUNTED (ALTHOUGH RED CARDS, YELLOW CARDS ETC. CAN STILL BE ISSUED OBVIOUSLY)


Analysis shows that games actually last about 60 minutes (30 minutes is typically wasted with the ball not being in play).


This would mean that every single game would last the same amount of time and that it's visible when it's going to end.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Someone I know suggested the following solution to timewasting, gurning, acting like a baby and being a wuss.

RULE CHANGE: THE GAME LASTS 60 MINUTES

RULE CHANGE: 30 MINUTES EACH HALF

RULE CHANGE: WHENEVER A CORNER, FREEKICK, THROW IN, INJURY ETC. OCCURS. THE CLOCK IS STOPPED. THE CLOCK REMAINS STOPPED UNTIL THE BALL GOES INTO PLAY. THE CLOCK IS CLEARLY VISIBLE TO THE CROWD, MANAGERS, PLAYERS AND TV. WHEN THE CLOCK TIMER REACHES 60 MINUTES THE GAME STOPS. ANYTHING OCCURRING AFTER THE CLOCK IS STOPPED ISN'T COUNTED (ALTHOUGH RED CARDS, YELLOW CARDS ETC. CAN STILL BE ISSUED OBVIOUSLY)


Analysis shows that games actually last about 60 minutes (30 minutes is typically wasted with the ball not being in play).


This would mean that every single game would last the same amount of time and that it's visible when it's going to end.

And introduce the same rule as in handball.. When there is a call from the referee, the losing team should leave the ball on the floor/don't pick it up.. Any disturbances/delaying is a (two minutes) penalty.. - every time... time wasting no problem in handball..

[StevenLFC]

Yes, I did but yes I could also have been clearer I suppose!

It is that bad, we fume when people dived against us such as Valencia (the player) so it would be hypocritical to now says its not such a bad thing after all the focus is on us.

You're looking at it from a Liverpool fan's point of view, I am trying to look at it as a general football fan. I just wonder why diving - a yellow card offence - can be talked about for up to a week after its happened, but a deliberate foul - a yellow card offence, which is equally as cynical - might not even make it onto a game's highlight package? 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

And introduce the same rule as in handball.. When there is a call from the referee, the losing team should leave the ball on the floor/don't pick it up.. Any disturbances/delaying is a (two minutes) penalty.. - every time... time wasting no problem in handball..

You don't even need to do that. The clock is only started again when a team legally kicks off and the ball is back in play.

[west_london_red]

You're looking at it from a Liverpool fan's point of view, I am trying to look at it as a general football fan. I just wonder why diving - a yellow card offence - can be talked about for up to a week after its happened, but a deliberate foul - a yellow card offence, which is equally as cynical - might not even make it onto a game's highlight package? 

Maybe because its a relativly new phenomenon in this country anyway, and certainly a growing one. Dodgy decisions by refs, missing blatent fouls, not booking/sending off players when its deserved for wreckless challenges (deliberate or not) has been going on a lot longer and people are a lot more accustomed to it.

Intent probably plays a big part in it too, most fouls (i know you mention specifically deliberate fouls) are not deliberate by the the offending player, they just miss time the tackle for example, but diving by its very nature is deliberate every time it happens. You cant always tell when a foul is deliberate or not by contrast.

[TheRealJA]

Put it this way, there is no cheating or diving in the SPL anymore.

[The 5th Benitle]

Call me thick but I'm not sure what relevance 60 minute games have to Steven's article.

[Pistolero]

The problem is consistency. When is a dive a dive? 

When it's a Uruguayan....do try and keep up