Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Djimi Smicer34]

The camera angle they're using is terrible but that's a lovely goal by Liverpool.

2-0, Duncan.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Standard red card in this fixture, Morgan Boyes.  We're playing the last half an hour with 10.

And it's 2-1 from the resulting free-kick.

[Lee1-6Liv]

Red card Boyes and Utd score from freekick.

[KingKolo]

Flicked on the highlights of the most recent U23 game. Really surprised by some of the players turning out.

Matty Virtue, Juanma and Chirivella are into their 20s now. They're never going to play for Liverpool, in fact they'll probably never even be regulars for a top division club. As for Randall and Markovic, they're not even under 23!

The whole competition (the U23 league) seems like a massive waste of time. All of the lads playing in it would be better off playing lower league football in games that actually matter, and trying to create a proper career for themselves before it's too late.

Anyone who Klopp sees as having a slight chance of making the step up (Hoever, Jones, Camacho, Woodburn etc) are whipped straight up to train at Melwood, and even most of them probably won't go on to make much of an impact for the first team if we're realistic.

Nothing personal against any of these lads obviously, they're brilliant footballers with a chance to have careers in the game. But what is the fucking point of the U23 league?

[Djimi Smicer34]

2-2.

Jaros made a brilliant save just before it.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Flicked on the highlights of the most recent U23 game. Really surprised by some of the players turning out.

Matty Virtue, Juanma and Chirivella are into their 20s now. They're never going to play for Liverpool, in fact they'll probably never even be regulars for a top division club. As for Randall and Markovic, they're not even under 23!

The whole competition (the U23 league) seems like a massive waste of time. All of the lads playing in it would be better off playing lower league football in games that actually matter, and trying to create a proper career for themselves before it's too late.

Anyone who Klopp sees as having a slight chance of making the step up (Hoever, Jones, Camacho, Woodburn etc) are whipped straight up to train at Melwood, and even most of them probably won't go on to make much of an impact for the first team if we're realistic.

Nothing personal against any of these lads obviously, they're brilliant footballers with a chance to have careers in the game. But what is the fucking point of the U23 league?

The game you watched highlights of was essentially a shop window for all of those players you mentioned ahead of the last week of the window.

We don't play that line-up all of the time, we were essentially giving people like Randall and Virtue, who have been here for years and could go on to have good careers in the EFL, a platform to try and earn themselves a move. 

[Djimi Smicer34]

Glatzel and Duncan have been brilliant, they haven't just scored the goals, they've tracked back relentlessly and won the ball back since we went down to 10.

Ritaccio has had a really good game in midfield too.

[KingKolo]

The game you watched highlights of was essentially a shop window for all of those players you mentioned ahead of the last week of the window.

We don't play that line-up all of the time, we were essentially giving people like Randall and Virtue, who have been here for years and could go on to have good careers in the EFL, a platform to try and earn themselves a move. 

Yeah fair enough mate, I get that. And good luck to those lads.
But I'm more wondering about the point of the whole flippin competition.

Our fringe players in the senior set up (the likes of Origi, Moreno, Sturridge etc) are never anywhere near a game for the U23s, so it's not as though it functions as a 'Reserve' team. Anyone with a proper chance of making it for the first team is already training with the senior set up by the time they're too old for the U18 league, and even the best of the ones that aren't quite going to make it (Wilson, Kent, Ojo, Ejaria etc) are off to play proper games on loan.

What sort of shop window can it really be? Those games are not competitive. Would a League 1 manager under pressure for results take a player based on performances in U23 football? I doubt it.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Yeah fair enough mate, I get that. And good luck to those lads.
But I'm more wondering about the point of the whole flippin competition.

Our fringe players in the senior set up (the likes of Origi, Moreno, Sturridge etc) are never anywhere near a game for the U23s, so it's not as though it functions as a 'Reserve' team. Anyone with a proper chance of making it for the first team is already training with the senior set up by the time they're too old for the U18 league, and even the best of the ones that aren't quite going to make it (Wilson, Kent, Ojo, Ejaria etc) are off to play proper games on loan.

What sort of shop window can it really be? Those games are not competitive. Would a League 1 manager under pressure for results take a player based on performances in U23 football? I doubt it.

Yes.

They do, regularly.

[Lee1-6Liv]

3-2 utd now, another freekick.

[Djimi Smicer34]

3-2 United in extra time, it's been coming for a while.

Mason Greenwood looks a bit special for them.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Glatzel should make it 3-3, hits the post.

[Chris~]

3-2 United in extra time, it's been coming for a while.

Mason Greenwood looks a bit special for them.

He's been too good for this level for about a year. Surprised he's still playing u18 football.

[KingKolo]

Yes.

They do, regularly.

Fine, but does that justify the existence of the competition?

[Djimi Smicer34]

Fine, but does that justify the existence of the competition?

What's your alternative to it?

[KingKolo]

What's your alternative to it?

To just not have it.

The U18 league would then be more competitive, because you wouldn't have the best 17 and 18 year olds 'making the step up' for the U23s. Players over 18 would go to lower league clubs (either on loan or permanently) and play competitive football, instead of lingering around.

What would be lost?

[FlashGordon]

To just not have it.

The U18 league would then be more competitive, because you wouldn't have the best 17 and 18 year olds 'making the step up' for the U23s. Players over 18 would go to lower league clubs (either on loan or permanently) and play competitive football, instead of lingering around.

What would be lost?

Late developers would lose the safety net of a big club that can afford to pay their wages and wait if their first loan or two doesn't work out. I dare say one Harry Kane may have been lost by that approach.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Lost 3-2.

Think it's safe to say the red card was costly.

Can't fault the effort and work rate, we could have equalised in extra-time too.

[soxfan]

Liverpool have completed the signing of 16-year-old French defender Billy Koumetio from US Orleans for a nominal fee, a source has told ESPN FC.

Koumetio spent a period on trial with Liverpool in 2018 and travelled with the under-17s squad to Berlin for friendlies in November.

The left-sided centre-back had been in the youth ranks at Lyon before making a switch to second-division side Orleans. He will begin his career at Liverpool in the U16s side.

Liverpool have made some notable additions to their academy in recent months.

They moved to acquire highly-rated Dutch youth international Ki-Jana Hoever from Ajax in the summer.

Hoever, 17, made his first-team debut earlier this month when he played at centre-half in the FA Cup defeat at Wolverhampton Wanderers.

Sources have told ESPN FC that Liverpool are hopeful the club's third-youngest ever player would sign a professional contract in the summer, having become eligible last week.

Meanwhile, Liverpool also signed Bobby Duncan, cousin of Steven Gerrard, from Manchester City, with the striker having scored 19 goals so far this season.

New York-born Matteo Rittacio, 17, signed a contract with the club this summer after making regular trips across the Atlantic since 2014 to train at the Kirkby academy.

[Nessy76]

To just not have it.

The U18 league would then be more competitive, because you wouldn't have the best 17 and 18 year olds 'making the step up' for the U23s. Players over 18 would go to lower league clubs (either on loan or permanently) and play competitive football, instead of lingering around.

What would be lost?

There's a huge gap between U18 and U23. I can see your point, but almost nobody is going to be the finished product at 18.

[Sarge]

Some very impressive youngsters in the Acedemy these days.

[KingKolo]

Late developers would lose the safety net of a big club that can afford to pay their wages and wait if their first loan or two doesn't work out. I dare say one Harry Kane may have been lost by that approach.

Giving an example of one player doesn't prove the point. You could equally say that Dele Alli wouldn't have developed like he has if he hadn't been playing competitive senior football in his teens.

There's a huge gap between U18 and U23. I can see your point, but almost nobody is going to be the finished product at 18.

First of all, it would be less of a gap without all the best 17 and 18 year olds playing U23 football.

I don't expect any player to be 'the finished product' at 18, far from it. Apart from really unusual cases like Owen or Rooney, I can hardly think of any players who haven't improved markedly between the age of 18 and 23. Even those two were probably a lot more consistent by the time they were in their 20s.

But in terms of making that step from 'promising youngster' to 'finished product', are they really best served with football in the U23 league? How many games of U23 football did Sterling, Gomez or Trent play? How much did they progress whilst playing at that level? Seems to me like the best youngsters are already getting a taste of first team action by the time they're in their late teens anyway, and that's going to accelerate their learning way beyond what they'd be doing playing U23 football.

For those who aren't going to make it at Liverpool, wouldn't they be better off cracking on with their careers? Conor Coady's a good example. Not good enough for Liverpool, but a fantastic player carving out a brilliant career by working his way up through the leagues. Adam Lallana is another one. Ok he can't stay fit for us over the last couple of seasons, but he was playing League 1 football in his 20s and ended up playing European finals and major international tournaments.

[FlashGordon]

Yeah but is there enough space on the wage bill for clubs further down the leagues? They can't have that many players on their wage bills and will likely go with the player proven at league 1 or 2 level over a 19 year old coming from Liverpool. Hence why there's the loan system so they don't have to take a financial gamble that they can't afford. Of course it could be improved upon, everything can, but I'm not sure you can just get rid of the under 23 aspect.

Of course B teams would be perfect for this but upsets the pyramid further down the leagues and league clubs would never vote in favour of it.

[KingKolo]

Yeah but is there enough space on the wage bill for clubs further down the leagues? They can't have that many players on their wage bills and will likely go with the player proven at league 1 or 2 level over a 19 year old coming from Liverpool. Hence why there's the loan system so they don't have to take a financial gamble that they can't afford. Of course it could be improved upon, everything can, but I'm not sure you can just get rid of the under 23 aspect.

Of course B teams would be perfect for this but upsets the pyramid further down the leagues and league clubs would never vote in favour of it.

Very fair points mate, but in lower league football it's far more common for players to sign much shorter term contracts to see how it goes.

I'm sure it's a more comfortable feeling to be on a 3 year pro contract at Liverpool and playing U23 football, than on a 3-6 month contract at Tranmere and wondering if it'll be renewed. But I'd argue that it's an even worse feeling to get to the end of your contract at Liverpool and then be trying to carve out a career in the lower leagues having only really played U23 football.

[jillcwhomever]

Lost 3-2.

Think it's safe to say the red card was costly.

Can't fault the effort and work rate, we could have equalised in extra-time too.

Sounds as though they were unlucky today, was it a deserved red?

[FlashGordon]

Very fair points mate, but in lower league football it's far more common for players to sign much shorter term contracts to see how it goes.

I'm sure it's a more comfortable feeling to be on a 3 year pro contract at Liverpool and playing U23 football, than on a 3-6 month contract at Tranmere and wondering if it'll be renewed. But I'd argue that it's an even worse feeling to get to the end of your contract at Liverpool and then be trying to carve out a career in the lower leagues having only really played U23 football.

I know what you mean and it's true that players who aren't going to feature in our first team or PL/Championship with another club are probably being done a disservice. I still don't think the lower league clubs would have the infrastructure to deal with the influx of academy graduates even on short term contracts. If they stay with us they'll pick up a couple of grand a week and might have the finances to start a business if the football doesn't work out or be able to take the financial hit of playing non-league conference football and try to get a club in the leagues that way. I do agree though by 23 you really shouldn't be here anymore if you're not going to make it with us.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Sounds as though they were unlucky today, was it a deserved red?

Yeah.

We were in control at that point, had just gone 2-0 up and Duncan/Glatzel were causing them real problems.  A couple of chances for us aside, the last 23-30 minutes of normal time and all of extra time were pretty much played in our half, we defended well enough with 10 but just couldn't hold out - Greenwood is a very difficult player to keep quiet at this level with 11 on the field and he made the most of Boyes being sent off.  Think that's 41 goals between Glatzel and Duncan this season though, which is pretty remarkable, Glatzel should have nicked an equaliser just after they went 3-2 up as well.  Thought Ritaccio was impressive in midfield today as well.

[KingKolo]

I know what you mean and it's true that players who aren't going to feature in our first team or PL/Championship with another club are probably being done a disservice. I still don't think the lower league clubs would have the infrastructure to deal with the influx of academy graduates even on short term contracts. If they stay with us they'll pick up a couple of grand a week and might have the finances to start a business if the football doesn't work out or be able to take the financial hit of playing non-league conference football and try to get a club in the leagues that way. I do agree though by 23 you really shouldn't be here anymore if you're not going to make it with us.

Are they earning a couple of grand a week though? A lot of these contracts are to protect the asset. Whatever they're earning, it must be in line with what they'd be making in the lower leagues, or we would never be able to get rid of any of them which would defeat the point signing them up long term in the first place.

Even if they are on that sort of money, whilst that might be nice for them, isn't that money that could be spent on grassroots football in the better interests of the community, or on better coaches, equipment etc in the better interests of the club?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

To just not have it.

The U18 league would then be more competitive, because you wouldn't have the best 17 and 18 year olds 'making the step up' for the U23s. Players over 18 would go to lower league clubs (either on loan or permanently) and play competitive football, instead of lingering around.

What would be lost?

The best years of their education,you don't spend year training kids to play a specific way only to ship them straight out when they hit a certain age.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Are they earning a couple of grand a week though? A lot of these contracts are to protect the asset. Whatever they're earning, it must be in line with what they'd be making in the lower leagues, or we would never be able to get rid of any of them which would defeat the point signing them up long term in the first place.

Even if they are on that sort of money, whilst that might be nice for them, isn't that money that could be spent on grassroots football in the better interests of the community, or on better coaches, equipment etc in the better interests of the club?

Some are on £10,000 pw.

[FlashGordon]

Are they earning a couple of grand a week though? A lot of these contracts are to protect the asset. Whatever they're earning, it must be in line with what they'd be making in the lower leagues, or we would never be able to get rid of any of them which would defeat the point signing them up long term in the first place.

Even if they are on that sort of money, whilst that might be nice for them, isn't that money that could be spent on grassroots football in the better interests of the community, or on better coaches, equipment etc in the better interests of the club?

There is already money spent on that and these young lads have 'worked' to get where they are from the age of 7 with no remuneration 'til they're 17 so I think it's only fair to have them on a very solid wage.

[jillcwhomever]

Yeah.

We were in control at that point, had just gone 2-0 up and Duncan/Glatzel were causing them real problems.  A couple of chances for us aside, the last 23-30 minutes of normal time and all of extra time were pretty much played in our half, we defended well enough with 10 but just couldn't hold out - Greenwood is a very difficult player to keep quiet at this level with 11 on the field and he made the most of Boyes being sent off.  Think that's 41 goals between Glatzel and Duncan this season though, which is pretty remarkable, Glatzel should have nicked an equaliser just after they went 3-2 up as well.  Thought Ritaccio was impressive in midfield today as well.

Sound. It is a very impressive total between Glatzel and Duncan a really interesting partnership as well. I'm excited to see how much more they can improve together.

[reddebs]

Fine, but does that justify the existence of the competition?

I'm almost certain the game you're referring to was a cup game in the PL2 International Trophy, rather than a  regular league game where you'd see more of our talented younger players. 

It was very much a nothing game for those who barely play to try and get some interest during a transfer window.

As for the u23s purpose, it's the link between schoolboy and seniors and was extended from 21s to 23s to cater for late developers, serious injury recovery and to stop so many 19/20yr olds being dumped out of the game from the elite academies round the country.





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[Suareznumber7]

I'm almost certain the game you're referring to was a cup game in the PL2 International Trophy, rather than a  regular league game where you'd see more of our talented younger players. 

It was very much a nothing game for those who barely play to try and get some interest during a transfer window.

As for the u23s purpose, it's the link between schoolboy and seniors and was extended from 21s to 23s to cater for late developers, serious injury recovery and to stop so many 19/20yr olds being dumped out of the game from the elite academies round the country.





Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

The U23 league hasn't really turned out the way it was expected to though right?  I believe that even Klopp has said it's not real football and not good enough to bridge the gap to the 1st team. 

[reddebs]

The U23 league hasn't really turned out the way it was expected to though right?  I believe that even Klopp has said it's not real football and not good enough to bridge the gap to the 1st team.

No it's not, there's still a lot of work to do to get it anywhere near competitive enough.

No idea what the answer is and neither do the FA who will continue to tinker till they mess it up completely.

I can't be arsed to change my Tapatalk settings because my time is more important than yours

[Suareznumber7]

No it's not, there's still a lot of work to do to get it anywhere near competitive enough.

No idea what the answer is and neither do the FA who will continue to tinker till they mess it up completely.

I can't be arsed to change my Tapatalk settings because my time is more important than yours

There’s really only one solution I think.

[KingKolo]

The best years of their education,you don't spend year training kids to play a specific way only to ship them straight out when they hit a certain age.

So where are all these Liverpool first team regulars who completed their education playing U23 footy?

[KingKolo]

There is already money spent on that and these young lads have 'worked' to get where they are from the age of 7 with no remuneration 'til they're 17 so I think it's only fair to have them on a very solid wage.

They are privately educated as Academy Scholars and get to play football every day, not to mention various incentives that clubs offer - renting/buying houses for their families etc. The idea that off the back of that they deserve to earn a few grand a week to play non-competitive football matches in their 20s seems flawed to me. Nothing against any of them personally, good luck to them, and of course I or anyone in my family wouldn't hesitate to take such a deal if offered. But I don't agree that's it's 'only fair' to retain these lads for the sake of their bank balances.

Even if they were deserving of it, there's absolutely no way that LFC would be paying them that money out of a sense of duty. Football clubs don't function like that, sadly.

[FlashGordon]

They are privately educated as Academy Scholars and get to play football every day, not to mention various incentives that clubs offer - renting/buying houses for their families etc. The idea that off the back of that they deserve to earn a few grand a week to play non-competitive football matches in their 20s seems flawed to me. Nothing against any of them personally, good luck to them, and of course I or anyone in my family wouldn't hesitate to take such a deal if offered. But I don't agree that's it's 'only fair' to retain these lads for the sake of their bank balances.

Even if they were deserving of it, there's absolutely no way that LFC would be paying them that money out of a sense of duty. Football clubs don't function like that, sadly.

We'll agree to disagree 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

So where are all these Liverpool first team regulars who completed their education playing U23 footy?

Not all make the grade obviously.