Topic: Lucas in Brazil Squad

[hedger]

Masch has played 139 games for us and only scored 5 times. So your goal scoring stat is meaningless.
Unless you think Masch isn't good enough for Liverpool.

masch was a destroyer in midfield - he done that job well. Lucas isnt in the same class. Neither is he a ball type player like alonso. so wat exactly is he?

[Chakan]

masch was a destroyer in midfield - he done that job well. Lucas isnt in the same class. Neither is he a ball type player like alonso. so wat exactly is he?

That's why I said your goal scoring stat was meaningless.

[GrkStav]

yeah def but his wage packet ruled that out

See, now we're getting somewhere. Your response tells me that you do consider wages and cost of acquisition as important elements and that you're not unrealistic.

So, do those considerations not apply to e.g. Sneijder? And, Alonso and Mascherano left us because they were pried away by teams with deeper pockets and apparently greater cachet for the likes of Mascherano and Alonso.

So, we have a 23-24 year old who's been improving ever since he arrived for us. He has become, through sheer hard work and being a "good boy", a much, much better player in the defensive aspects of a central midfielder than he was. He is now a serviceable option as DM, if we use one, or a defensively capable old-fashioned CM. He's become physically stronger, is no slower than Xabi was, even at his best, for us. His heading in midfield is superior to Xabi's. His long-distance shooting has not yet become consistently good or threatening but anyone who's familiar with his play at Gremio knows that this is not something that he has to learn from scratch, but a matter of him applying himself and being directed to do so and to deploy it in games.

If we were to part with Lucas to get a better player, on a realistic cost basis, then by all means we should do it. But "getting rid of him" with urgency does not seem a rational use of our resources and his capabilities and potential.

[hedger]

Do you know what type of CM Whelan was? Don't cite stats and youtube clips. Describe how he played in CM.

yes I do know exactly wat type of player whelan was thanks. He was a classy holding midfielder who scored important goals and was good enough to play at Anfield for 15 years. 

[Cid]

Hmm, ok, I am a big fan of Schneider and think quite highly of Alonso, Mascherano (but JUST as a DM) and Gerrard.

Meireles is a very good midfielder but certainly not a "world beater". He and Lucas, considering their ages, are of similar quality.

It is comments like that that cause arguments.  Meireles is twice the player of Lucas.  He has come into a new team, a new league, under a new manager, a new formation and he has still been quality for us.

As for players we should be looking at if we wanted a new midfielder in the mix?  Defour, Martinez, Banega, Sissoko(yes him), Hamsik, L.Diarra, Camacho

[hedger]

That's why I said your goal scoring stat was meaningless.

so wat is he?

[Fiasco]

Alonso didn't score that many. And a few he did score would of been the odd penalty and free-kicks. Mascherano scored a couple. It means fuck all.

[GrkStav]

Im saying that for a top EPL central midfielder he lacks the basic requirements - pace, power, vision, goals etc. Ive watched him over a period of time and I dont rate him. That is my opinion and playing quite well v blackburn doesnt change that.

Carrick and Fletcher are regular starters in midfield for Man. United. I have a hard time accepting that they are so clearly superior to Lucas in terms of the 'basic requirements - pace, power, vision, goals, etc' of being a "top EPL central midfielder" to qualify them as acceptable for Man. United and Lucas as unacceptable for us.

[Chakan]

so wat is he?

Mate I am not going to change your mind about Lucas and quite frankly you aren't going to change mine. I wanted to get rid of lucas at the start of 2009/2010 season. I would have been happy to get rid of him. In 2009/2010 he changed my mind. He has potential to do really good things for the club. Whether he gets the chance is not up to me. But I would pick him every single time over Poulsen. No matter the circumstances. I think Lucas could be a great performer for us.

Lets leave it at that. We can agree to disagree... you think he is gash that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. I think he can be a great addition to any team and is coming along nicely.

[GrkStav]

It is comments like that that cause arguments.  Meireles is twice the player of Lucas.  He has come into a new team, a new league, under a new manager, a new formation and he has still been quality for us.

As for players we should be looking at if we wanted a new midfielder in the mix?  Defour, Martinez, Banega, Sissoko(yes him), Hamsik, L.Diarra, Camacho

I am sorry, I happen to not think that Meireles is "twice the player of Lucas". In terms of passing alone, Lucas is superior to Meireles, and I happen to think that Meireles is pretty good.

[hedger]

Carrick and Fletcher are regular starters in midfield for Man. United. I have a hard time accepting that they are so clearly superior to Lucas in terms of the 'basic requirements - pace, power, vision, goals, etc' of being a "top EPL central midfielder" to qualify them as acceptable for Man. United and Lucas as unacceptable for us.

united fans wudnt rate Carrick much - I'd say hes a much better passer of the ball than Lucas. I'd say Fletcher is a far more powerful running midfielder

would  u swap either for lucas?  I would to be honest

[hedger]

Mate I am not going to change your mind about Lucas and quite frankly you aren't going to change mine. I wanted to get rid of lucas at the start of 2009/2010 season. I would have been happy to get rid of him. In 2009/2010 he changed my mind. He has potential to do really good things for the club. Whether he gets the chance is not up to me. But I would pick him every single time over Poulsen. No matter the circumstances. I think Lucas could be a great performer for us.

Lets leave it at that. We can agree to disagree... you think he is gash that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. I think he can be a great addition to any team and is coming along nicely.

fair enough mate - I honestly hope Im proven wrong

[BabuYagu]

GrkStav makes a good point though

To significantly improve on Lucas, it would cost a hell of a lot in wages, sign on and transfer fee.

Also I hate to be pedantic but can you write Sneijder instead of Schneider. Schneider is a German international and when I read your post suggesting Schneider I was thinking "but he's in his mid 30's... I know he fits Roy's transfer policy but we can't be seriously suggesting him"

Anyway, once again, before I would even look at our CM problems, I would first try to sort out our full backs, then replace Carra, then look at how we support Torres (sign a partner? Sign some inside forwards who will get into the box to support him?) then look at signing cover for Torres before finally looking to the midfield and signing someone to partner Meireles and provide serious competition for Lucas. Poulson should be released from contract. Very expensive mistake and can't see anybody paying to take him off our hands.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

It is comments like that that cause arguments.  Meireles is twice the player of Lucas.  He has come into a new team, a new league, under a new manager, a new formation and he has still been quality for us.

As for players we should be looking at if we wanted a new midfielder in the mix?  Defour, Martinez, Banega, Sissoko(yes him), Hamsik, L.Diarra, Camacho

Raul was at fault for both goals against Everton and was terrible on the right wing. How in god's name can you claim Raul is twice the player Lucas is or how you think he has been quality for us? You are just bullshitting, pure and simple. There's no proof of any of your statements and it's too early to even assume any of them.

[BabuYagu]

united fans wudnt rate Carrick much - I'd say hes a much better passer of the ball than Lucas. I'd say Fletcher is a far more powerful running midfielder

would  u swap either for lucas?  I would to be honest

The harsh truth though is that most fans have absolutely no clue why Carrick is important to the team. Alan Hansen last season said he had no clue what Mikel brings to Chelsea. He thinks that Chelsea can win the league carrying a player in the most important area of the pitch.

Xabi Alonso said Carrick was the best CM England had available. The reason is Carrick is better than any other English CM at recycling possession of the football. We see that as ineffective sideways passing, a intelligent footballer sees that as vital to success.

Again, look at why it took Xavi 10 years to get recognition! Despite what people think with Xavi, every pass isn't a Killer Ball. Barca recycle the ball better than any team in the world at the moment. Xavi and Busquets are vital to that. Busquets is currently the player at Barca who has no purpose. I'd imagine he'll be getting his recognition in another 8 more years like Xavi

[GrkStav]

Also I hate to be pedantic but can you write Sneijder instead of Schneider. Schneider is a German international and when I read your post suggesting Schneider I was thinking "but he's in his mid 30's... I know he fits Roy's transfer policy but we can't be seriously suggesting him"

Yes, mate, good point. Fixed above.

[lafuriaroja]

masch was a destroyer in midfield - he done that job well. Lucas isnt in the same class. Neither is he a ball type player like alonso. so wat exactly is he?

Lucas is a Makelele. He's an all-arounder, covers and reads the game, always available for a pass, keeps attacks moving when a probe down a flank runs up against a wall. He cycles the ball between attacking points. He plays like Alonso, without the hollywood passes and with more mobility. He plays like Masch, except he's already in position to intercept the pass that Masch would have to make a 30 yard sprint and slide tackle to stop.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

united fans wudnt rate Carrick much - I'd say hes a much better passer of the ball than Lucas. I'd say Fletcher is a far more powerful running midfielder

would  u swap either for lucas?  I would to be honest

but would either be able to stabilise the brazil play?

and thats a big fat no

carrick can spot an early pass but his defensive side is not that good.
fletcher is more of a dog of war but isnt going to read the play and understand what is needed

[steveeastend]

You cannot compare Lucas to Fletcher. But you can compare the output. This again depends on the team, does he fit or not.

To make it even more clear, can you imagine Fletcher in a brasilian first 11? Sorry, not working at all, he would look like Poulsen for Liverpool. But for United he fits in perfectly, no doubt about it.

Back to Lucas, I think he is the better player than Fletcher. If he could be as valuable for us as Fletcher for United is not clear yet as it heavily depends on the system we gonna play in future. English-old-syle-Ferguson style or Benitez-pass-and-move style....

[its cold in the stands]

Do you know what type of CM Whelan was? Don't cite stats and youtube clips. Describe how he played in CM.

whelan was a far better player than lucas.
ronnie whelan took over the left sided midfield spot when ray kennedy went and that just showed how good he was because he got in the team ahead of kevin sheedy (who was an excellent player who went on to win the title with everton).
whelan wasnt just a holding midfielder, when he first started out he was a goalscoring left sided midfielder (he scored in big games too, league title deciders, league cup finals v spurs and united, f.a cup semi final v united etc)
you cant compare the 2 of them.

[The 5th Benitle]

I am amazed that people think that this waste of space of a player is in some way a good player.
I could bang on about what wrong with him, passing sideways, slow, cant tackle, no pace, just to name a few things, and yet some people think he can play football.
He has had one good game out of 50 and people think in some way he is this wonder player, he is not a good player and he never will be!

One of the reasons we are in so much shite in the prem is we have players likes of lucas and poulson in the side, and i have seen some bad players in my time, as i have been waching the reds since 1968. this lucas is as bad a player as i have ever seen play for the reds in all them years.
And i hope he will be sold in january along with poulson  for what ever fee we can get for them.

You do not understand modern football, I'm afraid. You're quite entitled to your opinion and in turn my opinion is that you need to start watching the player without prejudice. I can understand people saying Lucas isn't top class but 'as bad aplayer as I have seen' is just embarrassing.

[cjmclean]

Lucas is a Makelele. He's an all-arounder, covers and reads the game, always available for a pass, keeps attacks moving when a probe down a flank runs up against a wall. He cycles the ball between attacking points. He plays like Alonso, without the hollywood passes and with more mobility. He plays like Masch, except he's already in position to intercept the pass that Masch would have to make a 30 yard sprint and slide tackle to stop.

That's the best description I've ever read on Lucas. Absolutely spot on!

[Regi]

The lad is a competent player, with good vision and he can pick a pass.
However, he is not physically imposing enough to be a defensive midfielder and isn't powerful enough to be an effective attacking midfielder.
As an all-rounder he is a fairly good player but if we are serious about sorting out our first team so that it can challenge the top 4 again then he isn't good enough, certainly not good enough to start.

Some of the other midfielders being mentioned in the same breath on this thread are ridiculous...like Alonso, Makelele, Whelan etc.
That's just bullshit...Lucas isn't anywhere near the same bracket as any of those players, each of whom was magnificent

[Seebab]

The lad is a competent player, with good vision and he can pick a pass.
However, he is not physically imposing enough to be a defensive midfielder and isn't powerful enough to be an effective attacking midfielder.
As an all-rounder he is a fairly good player but if we are serious about sorting out our first team so that it can challenge the top 4 again then he isn't good enough, certainly not good enough to start.

Why does he have to be a defensive or attacking midfielder? Can't he just be a centre midfielder where he does both since he's good enough to do both?

Why does he need to be compared to all of these players when he's obviously in his own category.

[SuperMilan]

You do not understand modern football, I'm afraid. You're quite entitled to your opinion and in turn my opinion is that you need to start watching the player without prejudice. I can understand people saying Lucas isn't top class but 'as bad aplayer as I have seen' is just embarrassing.

What on earth are you talking about, i dont understand modern football,  i have been going to all the home games since 1968 i dont need to understand modern football as you call it, i know a great liverpool player when i see one and Lucas is not a liverpool player.

 I have been going to the game since shanklys days, if you think it in some way it impairs  my decisions on weather or not i know a good player from a bad one, what rubbish!

I am not prejudice against lucas or any liverpool player i want them all to do well, but the lad is not good enough to make it in the prem.

[Cadno]

What on earth are you talking about, i dont understand modern football,  i have been going to all the home games since 1968 i dont need to understand modern football as you call it, i know a great liverpool player when i see one and Lucas is not a liverpool player.

 I have been going to the game since shanklys days, if you think it in some way it impairs  my decisions on weather or not i know a good player from a bad one, what rubbish!

I am not prejudice against lucas or any liverpool player i want them all to do well, but the lad is not good enough to make it in the prem.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=8386

Since 1968 is it? So you'd have been what? around -14?

edit.  unless you meant this post from your other WuM account. 

[Marko B]

so wat is he?

This:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/30/central-midfield-role/



Now please be quiet, your ignorance is hurting my ears:

Im saying that for a top EPL central midfielder he lacks the basic requirements - pace, power, vision, goals etc...

Considering you've just wanked over Xabi (and not to say that Xabi isn't a fine player) but he doesn't even meet 3 of the 4 criteria you set out yourself.

What about positioning, intelligence, discipline etc eh? Football is a team game, as long as the team is playing well due to the sum of all parts working well then what difference is the lack of a tangible/highlight driven individual performance? Today's central midfield has changed, you need to see that change too.

[brunny]

Some of the other midfielders being mentioned in the same breath on this thread are ridiculous...like Alonso, Makelele, Whelan etc.
That's just bullshit...Lucas isn't anywhere near the same bracket as any of those players, each of whom was magnificent

Why cannot you compare there attributes? If you say Lucas has similar strengths and weaknesses to xxx, you are not saying he is as good, but he is a similar player (plays in a similar way).

[koolkamal]

What about positioning, intelligence, discipline etc eh? Football is a team game, as long as the team is playing well due to the sum of all parts working well then what difference is the lack of a tangible/highlight driven individual performance? Today's central midfield has changed, you need to see that change too.

The english disease.

[SuperMilan]

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=8386

Since 1968 is it? So you'd have been what? around -14?

edit.  unless you meant this post from your other WuM account. 

My son set my RAWK acount up he is is 28, dont be stupid i am 54.

[Cadno]

My son set my RAWK acount up he is is 28, dont be stupid i am 54.

Ohh really?  and im 73

[KennyLFC]

I noticed someone said Lucas has scored 3 goals in 82 apperances for us, he has 6 goals in 130 something apperances.

[Jokerman]

I noticed someone said Lucas has scored 3 goals in 82 apperances for us, he has 6 goals in 130 something apperances.

3/82 in the league.

[koolkamal]

This isn't a Poulsen thread, or the Gerrard thread, or any other CMs who does or doesn't deserve respect. I should've known better when I brought this thread back from the dead.

Don't worry it will be closed soon enough anyway.

Like I said the end is near. (Some good discussions and analysis of his game but getting lost amongst the rubbish).

[Sangria]

whelan was a far better player than lucas.
ronnie whelan took over the left sided midfield spot when ray kennedy went and that just showed how good he was because he got in the team ahead of kevin sheedy (who was an excellent player who went on to win the title with everton).
whelan wasnt just a holding midfielder, when he first started out he was a goalscoring left sided midfielder (he scored in big games too, league title deciders, league cup finals v spurs and united, f.a cup semi final v united etc)
you cant compare the 2 of them.

Whelan played the CM role in much the same way that Lucas does. He did that because the late 80s Liverpool had a very similar blueprint to what Benitez was aiming for, and Whelan and Lucas are the same type of player who can execute that important role. They're all-rounders who are at least decent in all aspects of midfield play, and lack in none of them. Of the 3 CM roles in the 3 CM system, they're versatile enough to be able to play in any of them and not look out of place. Most of all, they have the nous and the mentality to play the holding role, and the technical ability to turn it into an attacking asset as well if given the opportunity. Sure, Lucas hasn't reached Whelan's level yet. But the potential is there, and the only thing he significantly lacks, confidence, is something that can appear out of nowhere.

[RJH]

As people are talking about his appearances/goals, I thought I'd do a little comparison of Lucas against the other CMs we've had recently. I've also included stats from the start of Gerrard's career, just for comparison.


Lucas has so far made 134 appearances, and scored 6 goals
In his first 3 seasons with us, Alonso made 136 appearances, and scored 12 goals
In his first four seasons with us, Gerrard made 139 appearances, and scored 15 goals
Mascherano made 139 appearances and scored 2 goals
Sissoko made 87 appearances, and scored 1 goal


So Lucas's scoring rate isn't that bad really. Especially when you take into account how many of those appearances were as a substitute:

Lucas 97 starts, 37 sub
Alonso  117 starts, 19 sub
Gerrard 119 starts, 20 sub
Mascherano 132 starts, 7 sub
Sissoko 72 starts, 15 sub

[Gus 1855]

Like it or not, "Liverpool standard" or not, Lucas is the best defensive mid we have at the moment. It is not Lucas or Gerrard, Lucas or Masch, Lucas or Miereles it is Lucas or Poulsen?

[Sangria]

Like I said the end is near. (Some good discussions and analysis of his game but getting lost amongst the rubbish).

There's the language of European football, which talks about football in terms of teams and systems. Then there is the language of English football, which talks about football in terms of individuals. The last couple of pages has shown the divide, in what I call the English disease. English traditionalists can't see the game in terms of the overall team, because the very language in which English football is discussed focuses on the individual. After Liverpool were outplayed by other top European teams in the 60s, Shankly knew something had to change, and began redirecting Liverpool's football to a more European model. His work in this became known as the on-pitch section of the Liverpool Way. All the talk about pass and move, how Liverpool's football was different and special, was just Shankly's refocusing of Liverpool's football to a European team-based integrated system. Once the implicit understanding of that was lost, there would inevitably be a move back towards the English baseline of individual-based reading of football, because the language English football is discussed in focuses on that. The influx of foreign coaches has led to a greater understanding of the European model among managers and coaches, and pan-European enthusiasts have tried to develop a language that can better describe the European model. But most English fans still discuss football in the language of English football, and Liverpool is no exception, as can be seen here. That's why the England team will always tend towards shitness, whatever the merits of its individual players.

[tea_tree]

What on earth are you talking about, i dont understand modern football,  i have been going to all the home games since 1968 i dont need to understand modern football as you call it, i know a great liverpool player when i see one and Lucas is not a liverpool player.

 I have been going to the game since shanklys days, if you think it in some way it impairs  my decisions on weather or not i know a good player from a bad one, what rubbish!

I am not prejudice against lucas or any liverpool player i want them all to do well, but the lad is not good enough to make it in the prem.

Aside from the obvious fact that he currently plays for Liverpool, has a legally binding contract with them, they pay his wages etc

[koolkamal]

There's the language of European football, which talks about football in terms of teams and systems. Then there is the language of English football, which talks about football in terms of individuals. The last couple of pages has shown the divide, in what I call the English disease. English traditionalists can't see the game in terms of the overall team, because the very language in which English football is discussed focuses on the individual. After Liverpool were outplayed by other top European teams in the 60s, Shankly knew something had to change, and began redirecting Liverpool's football to a more European model. His work in this became known as the on-pitch section of the Liverpool Way. All the talk about pass and move, how Liverpool's football was different and special, was just Shankly's refocusing of Liverpool's football to a European team-based integrated system. Once the implicit understanding of that was lost, there would inevitably be a move back towards the English baseline of individual-based reading of football, because the language English football is discussed in focuses on that. The influx of foreign coaches has led to a greater understanding of the European model among managers and coaches, and pan-European enthusiasts have tried to develop a language that can better describe the European model. But most English fans still discuss football in the language of English football, and Liverpool is no exception, as can be seen here. That's why the England team will always tend towards shitness, whatever the merits of its individual players.

I'm going to have to 'theft' that. Couldn't have explained it better myself.