Author Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2  (Read 23090 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« on: January 18, 2014, 09:01:41 pm »
Oh dear.

At 2 0, I thought we needed a goal before half time and we got it. At 2 2 I really thought we'd go on and win it. But you get caught up in the game and you can't see the wood for the trees. At the remove of a couple of hours, we were a horror show. We showed character, I suppose, in coming back (never a peno, by the way) but I watched most of that game in a state of utter frustration. It seemed like everyone was total shite. Coutinho fizzing balls into nowhere, Gerrard running around like a headless chicken, Toure looking like a guy who was impersonating a professional footballer. So over to you, Rawkish Horde.

Am I being too harsh?

Does it disturb anyone that our main distribution line was from Skrtel?

Did anyone play well? Sterling?

How much did Villa's tactics and defending help their cause?

Gerrard at defensive midfield: any evidence that he can do this role?

Offline Azi

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2014, 10:21:29 pm »
I'd say your being too kind, before we start dissecting that performance id say well done to Lambert and his team got their tactics spot on and if we're honest they could and should have been more than 2 up before Sturridge scored and if it wasn't for Agbonlahors (how old is he by the way ? seems to have been around forever) injury i actually think Villa would have won the game his pace was villas main thread and once it was gone the only other option was to punt it long for Benteke and Holt to to chase which we managed to do.

When i seen the lineup i text my mate saying i fancied villa to nick something here Because i thought that midfield would struggle against villas pace and i was right  but  i didn't think it would be that blatant. Rodgers gets the credit for changing things at half time but half the ground knew after 10 mins we were on a hiding to nothing and he should have changed something then rather than at half time we made the same mistake last year against Southampton trying to go all out attack and it cost us and it happened again today.

watching that game our midfield didn't know what to do Henderson whose pass for the goal was stunning didn't know whether to close the villa players down or hold his position because he knew if he got beat villa were through and gerrard who jogged everywhere if he is to play their then we're going to be an easy target for anyone with pace. if it was me i would have taken gerrard off and brought lucas on it just isn't working for him in his defensive role, we're not a bad side but injuries to our back line make us vulnerable a couple of additions in this window and we should be decent  force which challenges for top 4 its one bad result we never lost  and its one more point to our tally,win our next home match we move back in top  4 and its back in our hands.

Woke up this morning looking forward to the game but after hearing the news theirs more important things in life than seeing 22 overpaid guys kick about a ball for 90 mins

RIP Mikaeel

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 12:32:28 am »
Incidentally, and not for the first time, Delph was everywhere. Another standout performance, he really likes playing us.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 02:48:55 am »
maybe it will put some feet back on the ground 

we aren't the finished article our defensive play is not good enough hasn't been all season but its been masked by some outstanding play going forward. I dont think its  a question of either or, we need both and todays display looked more naive than anything else.

Rodgers is still learning and needs  to find a balance. It looked like we underestimated Villa expected them to worry about us but they did really well. They looked very confident, brave and thrived on the space we allowed them.  We couldn't get the ball and when we did we were so stretched out we couldn't use it. 

Gerrard looked lost in the first half. Its a sad state of affairs that we can't see a system that uses the massive talent he still has. If Henderson is to be his legs then they'll have to be in our half not all over the pitch when we have 4 other players basically committed to attack. Neither fullback helped the midfield although Cissokho at least tried.

I think we forgot the basics of needing to control that midfield. The difference between the team with and without Lucas was staggering. We still dont have any real cover for him. Rodgers seems to think its Allen given the lack of cover last year and this.  I can't see it myself. I think his position is more advanced than that. Same type of role as Henderson and if Gerrard is to play that anchor, we'll need to re-think midfield because we cant support 4 forwards unless the opposition park the bus (which is probably what I think Rodgers expected). What I dont understand is why we didn't change it when it was obvious we wre being outplayed.

The players were second to every ball in the first half an hour, it was reminiscent of the Hull debacle where the energy, aggression and belief of the opposition took us by surprise. Its like we expected Villa to play a certain way and roll over and die when they didn't we had no idea what to do.

Bad tactics, bad attitude and bad preperation. Rodgers should carry the can for the first half , he was outhought by Lambert and the Villa players were better prepared and motivated. Thankfully half time worked well and Rodgers should get credit for that. But, but but its a bad day and one that could and should have been avoided with better management. Hopefully one we learn from, chalk it up to Rodgers needing to grow as a manager, he's got more right this year than not and more right this year than last hopefully that trend continues. Unfortunately he does not have the luxury of being able to make many mistakes and still achieve the high expectations that are heaped on him.

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Offline the 92A

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 10:17:15 am »
When Hodgson came to Liverpool I knew his style of play but I hoped that with better players he would adapt his style, that what had gone before was pragmatism and now he might surprise us by adapting but like a certain manger down the East Lancs Road the style is fixed that is what works for them and they'll never innovate or adapt. What I like about Brendan Rodgers is he is not like that, he's adaptable and willing to innovate, experiment but anyone who does that can't get it right everytime and Rodger's got it wrong in the first half. Sitting twenty rows behind him I could see our midfield wasn't working that it was ineffective  but a game like that is worth it for what he is building I've watched some fantastic football this season and if I have to watch the odd experiment that goes wrong I rather that than the boring predictability of Hodgson.


But it wasn't all about tactics but also personnel. We don't have the resources of some of our peers and our defence is wracked with injuries and a lonee who is bewildered by the Premiership but what can Rodgers do about that apart from making the best of a difficult situation, but yesterday it didn't work the midfield was non-existent and our attacking riches looked isolated and ineffective and when we had chances they were squandered, Suarez wasn't at his unbelievable world beating best and Couthino looked a bit jaded but  how can you criticise either of them?


When Lucas came on it was like a switch was turned on and we clicked back into title contenders rather than also rans. Sometimes certain players allow a team to function like Didi Hamman did Lucas knitted everything together and his positional intelligence was wonderful he gives the team options, if he hadn't have gone off I was confident we would have won.


I'm gutted we dropped points at home but all is still to fight for in terms of a top four place,  football is never just a straight line upwards, yesterday was a mistake but Rodgers will analyse it and come back stronger, I hope Lucas' injury is not serious when it comes to depth we're much thinner than some of our rivals
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 10:19:07 am by The 92A »
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 10:55:55 am »
We were terrible, in particular in the first half. Within the first minute, they had created a golden opportunity and that set the tone. All the time, they launched it long and it's hard to argue against that plan. Maybe it didn't give them goals, but it seemed to rip our game plan to pieces. Nothing worked as it should and the prime example of that is their second goal. Johnson and Mignolet both missed that cross and it was an empty net. We were very lucky to be down with just one goal at HT.

Rodgers needed to make a change and he did. With Lucas on, we immediately looked a lot better. And as soon as he went off, our game took another turn and our quality dropped. And that for me tells the story of the game. One could of course argue that Villa adjusted their game, but others will have to go through that.

The OP asked a question about Skrtel being the distribution line. I think the reason it became that way was the absence of Lucas.
Gerrard plays a different game. Lucas finds simple solutions. Gerrard finds difficult ones. The impact on our game is, that with Lucas on, we can be calm. With Gerrard, there's always a risk that we rush the game. There's no question we get benefits with Gerrard. That ball for Suarez, that resulted in the penalty, that's Gerrard's contribution and it can't be replaced with ease. But if our game suffers and we're not in control (like in the first half), then we're better off with a Lucas in the deeper role. Or Allen. My remaining concern with Allen is that as soon as someone gets close to him, I fear he'll lose the ball.

Yesterday we lost two points. It was a game we needed to win and we should have won. Even with the dreadful first half in mind, we find a way to come back and once in control, we should have won. Ask a neutral and I supposed they'd say we didn't even deserve a point. But we got it. And the positive take on things, is we got a point despite being so poor for so long in the game.

We'll have to make up for this result, but we're still on track for a top four finish. Let's hope Lucas' injury isn't serious.



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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 11:01:30 am »
Been a while since its needed to be said but Rodgers got this one badly wrong.

The shape, the personnel chosen to fill that shape, it was all wrong.

Starting from the back and making our way forward, his hands were tied in terms of who he picked so there's not much blame you can lay at his door there. Mignolet is badly out of form right now and exhibiting all of the attributes we as a fan base have roundly criticised other 'keepers for. He's routed to his line, doesn't command his box, can't kick and flaps at crosses. The Belgian Shay Given.

His shot stopping earlier in the season covered it, because he was so incredibly good at it. But that's now deserted him, and he looks exposed as a result. But we know he has it in him to be better than this so yeah, poor form. Poor mentality too perhaps as he can be more proactive with his distribution, usually by virtue of throwing it. But he's not doing that either. Still a bit of Sunderland in him maybe. These elements of his game won't change overnight because he's signed for us, but they need to be chipped away at for sure.

The back 4? My oh my. Again, Rodgers was largely bound by the players available to him thanks to injuries. I thought Johnson was adequate, not as bad has he has been, not as good as he can be. But certainly not one of the main culprits here for once. That title is split between Toure and Cissokho. Two players possessing qualities that wouldn't even be suited to a club in Villa's position let alone our own. It was a horror show.

Toure for all of his cult hero status is a really poor defender these days. His legs have gone, he wins nothing in the air and the moves he makes to compensate for both do more to accentuate these deficiencies than they do to cover for them.

I know we've seen absolutely no sign on Ilori yet and you perhaps wouldn't want to introduce him in a game where he'd be up against Benteke but his pace at least would have been useful against a team who's only real threat is to counter quickly. And I'd rather have someone bringing one attribute to the table and sacrificing aerial ability than one who brings neither the ability to run nor win a header.

You can say that hindsight is 20/20 but this wasn't a bolt from the blue. This CB partnership was absolutely terrible against both Hull and Stoke. This was foreshadowed.

Cissokho just isn't good enough, thank God he's not actually our player. An advertisement for not cutting corners in terms of recruitment if ever there was one.

Skrtel, a player I'm no stranger to pointing out when he doesn't do so well (most of the time) should be congratulated for attempting to cope with the shocking level of performance around him. He did alright all in and it shouldn't be missed. Poor lad.

The midfield then?

Again, this falls largely on Rodgers' shoulders. I wondered last week in the Allen thread how we'd line up now Sturridge was back, how Rodgers would fit people in. Based on this he got it badly wrong. I should punctuate this by saying that I do believe that Gerrard could play that deepest role and play it with some aplomb. But there's no way he could do it in a CM containing only two players. Henderson as much as he's high energy just can't do enough running for that extra man taken out of the centre of the park. Gerrard was massively exposed and he looked genuinely terrible because of it.

Gerrard deep with Hendo AND Allen ahead of him and Im confident it would have been a different story. But its harder to do that and fit all our attacking talent in to the team. And if there's one thing this game showed its that Rodgers is keen to get them all playing, that wasn't a team set up to control it was a team set up to score goals. It was top heavy to the extreme, Gerrard bit the bullet for it.

Coutinho continues to look out of form, something he's looked like for a good while now. Whenever mentioned the response seems to be that despite his end product not being there that at least he's was doing the fundamentals well, knitting the play connecting those playing better. This certainly wasn't the case here. He was shocking and deserved his hook. Personally I think he needs a rest or to be given the chance to just get himself together but Id be tempted to keep him in there against Bournemouth just to give him the chance against a weaker opposition to find his groove again.

The others did alright in the main, Sterling was one of the few who knew what he was meant to be doing and on the whole made a decent fist of it. Suarez looked frustrated, as well he might given the service and standard of the referring performance.

Sturridge continues to be a revaluation to my eyes. Wouldn't say he played all that well but he took his goal incredibly well, just about his only chance of the game. Deadeye.

All in it was terrible, and largely avoidable you feel. One of these performances comes along every so often to give everyone a jolt. The manager, the players and ourselves. They serve a purpose from that point of view.

We need to improve if we're going to get that top 4 spot. Mostly at the back. Here's to the necessary steps being taken to make it happen.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2014, 11:40:36 am »
Wasn't the wrong player taken off at half-time? Yes, Gerrard improved in the second half (or at least he became less of a liability) but how we could have done Coutinho on the pitch. There was suddenly a supply line between defence and midfield when the mighty Lucas came on. There was some great movement from Suarez and Sturridge in the second '45. But between these two lines there was no one to exploit things. Gerrard provided one beautiful pass for the equaliser but other than that simply got in the way of things. Henderson was static, static, static. A gorgeous touch for the first goal, yes. But a performance that was empty of brains and imagination in the second half. We created nothing after 55 minutes, despite the fact that there was more space to play in. The game was crying out for someone like Coutinho in the centre of the pitch.

Skrtel was pretty towering I thought. Hats off to him. Toure? Jesus Christ. I worried about him from the moment I saw him v Preston North End. It's rare you see a player looking off the pace in a pres-season friendly. That ought to have been the storm signal. Yesterday he looked like a pensioner running through knee-high mud. And of course everything went to pot once his morale collapsed. Clearances shinned or missed altogether. A grim determination to hide from the ball whenever Mignolet or Skrtel had it. He's a really nice bloke. He was once a pretty fine defender, many moons ago. But Liverpool shouldn't be a retirement home.

Villa deserved their point. As with last season they played with two mobile attackers who seemed to be first to every whacked clearance from the Villa defence (especially when Lucas wasn't there to harass them). Echo Corky too. Delph is a fine player.

We'll bounce back I think. We have the best coach. But some tough decisions to be made from Brendan. And I'm not sure the deficit at left back (Cissokho, willing but sub-standard) can be allowed to carry on much longer.

Oh, Sterling played well again.
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Offline -Daws-

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2014, 07:40:29 pm »
Spurs are level on points with us, Everton can go above us, and our season is over. Better luck next year.

Whilst I have criticisms of both Rodgers and individual players, it’s important we all look at the bigger picture here that as of this moment, leaves the race for 4th spot in our own hands; something we haven’t been able to say since Rafa left the club and not only this but thus far, we are doing it in style. Generally you can see the progress mentally, technically and tactically over Rodgers reign at the club. He is a very bright young manager, a forward thinker who handles himself well in the media and clearly has a positive effect in every way on young players. He is taking us places, but that doesn’t mean we won’t trip up every now and then, as we did Saturday.

Firstly, when I saw the team sheet I was both excited and anxious. Villa at home have generally been pretty poor playing through the middle of the park and struggle to create passing angles to move the ball into the final third. Rodgers thinking may have been that Gerrard and Henderson were good enough to hold out and good enough to play through Villa. He was wrong however, as Villa won the midfield battle in almost every way until the introduction of Lucas. They were more reactive, their passing was crisper, and they had more energy and numbers picking their runs well. Jordan got through an astonishing amount of work, but both he and Stevie were having an off day passing wise, averaging less than 80% accuracy each, and so you’re going to have problems. Add to this that Coutinho was very poor in his decision making and passing accuracy and we become very disjointed when three such good players aren’t playing well at all. Sterling, Sturridge and Suarez were starved of any chances despite decent movement because of our lack of functionality in midfield. Delph is a lovely little player, particularly off the ball as he presses ferociously and with his wiry little frame he is able to be very reactive and effective at nicking the ball off the opponents.

I think the key factor is that Gerrard and Henderson shouldn’t have started in a midfield pair with two young lads who will naturally attack and make forward runs more than consolidate, you are going to be open. The 4222 has been proven to work but usually with Lucas in the side and Henderson occupying one of the more forward positions. It was a difficult call for Rodgers as Coutinho is the only natural number 10 to link the play between the lines but given Sterling’s form I’d have opted for the two young Englishmen to start in the middle 2 with Sturridge and Suarez ahead and Lucas partnering Gerrard in the back 2. I think that has enough balance and goal threat. Also having Coutinho to bring on would have been a great option from the bench.

As I say it was a difficult decision for but a strange on nonetheless. We have seen before Gerrard and Henderson struggle on their own in midfield and Saturday was no different. Lucas or Allen have to play for me because they are more technical, calculated midfielders who know how to air on the side of caution and control the tempo. Brendan is a huge believer in controlling the ball and the tempo rather than space and direction and I think it was odd for him to choose such a midfield that never looked like it would be able to circulate the ball well. Both Henderson and Gerrard are pretty direct, and we rushed our way through the game.

Skrtel and Toure struggle as a pair don’t they? It’s unfortunate because both look pretty decent beside Agger or Sakho but play them together and either one or both seem to have a bad game. This time it was Toure as Skrtel actually played quite well. Looking at their first goal you can see at how Toure failed to get near Agbonglahor (tbf he wouldn’t be expected to), couldn’t take the ball off him when he slowed down - but as he got in the cross, what is irritating is just looking at the numbers. Four Liverpool players in the box, one white and claret shirt, and we can’t prevent the ball getting to that man. Gerrard let him slip over his should and failed to get near enough to the ball. Skrtel, Cissokho and Johnson are all standing in line with the ball cutting off one angle to two of their players just outside the box and Skrtel fails to close the ball down aggressively enough. That’s five Liverpool players failing to do a pretty basic job, Mig could have got down quicker too, so six – very disappointing.

Second goal, without going back too far, Toure finds himself in no man’s land at left back, Gerrard fails to track or close down the cross early enough and the ball comes in. Skrtel’s position is a good one and Johnson has allowed Benteke to drop off his shoulder as he ball watches. Miglonet made a poor decision to come for a ball he wouldn’t reach and it looped over Johnson onto the head of Benteke for an easy finish. Another catalogue of errors rather than anything spectacular from Villa, we made it easy for them to score their goals, though they deserved their lead. Our goal was quite direct and self-explanatory. Gerrard found one delicious pass to the advancing Suarez who rounded off Guzan and was bought down – the penalty taken well by Stevie.

I was actually hoping to see the sub happen that occurred. Coutinho was the worst player on the pitch for me, shortly followed by our captain but given Gerrard’s ability to step up when required, his experience and maturity, and with Phillippe being a young lad who has been in poor form, I think it was the obvious choice for a number of reasons. Coutinho will bounce back, he’s too good not to. Lucas made a difference, I sure hope the initial news isn’t true but I fear the worst and we do need depth in his position. We gained some control in the game as we circulated the ball better and Lucas plugged an obvious hole in the middle of the pitch. Our goal was well worked with a lovely bit of play between Suarez and Henderson before Sturridge took his chance in the custom we’ve come to expect. Allen did well when he came on but boy did we lack some urgency towards the end of the match, like we were happy with the draw? We went from playing too direct and rushed to playing too slowly out from the back with no determination to try and move play forward quickly to snatch that winner which we wouldn’t have actually deserved. It’s something we have been pretty good at since Rodgers arrival. Two years ago we’d have been well beaten I think. Still, disappointing not to push that little bit harder. Henderson looked absolutely fucked at the end, and I’m not surprised he was EVERYWHERE all game – the others, really should have done more.

Overall disappointing from the manager (by his usual exceptional standards), disappointment in many of the players, and a little disappointed at our lack of urgency to win the game. But I said before, this is just a little stumble on what is a road to somewhere special. Beat Everton next week and you’ll all be talking about the title again. :wave
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Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2014, 08:06:07 pm »
And I'm not sure the deficit at left back (Cissokho, willing but sub-standard) can be allowed to carry on much longer.

He's not perfect by any means but we have missed Enrique very badly haven't we.

I'm just disappointed that we didn't seem to kick on once we equalised, it seemed instead that we relaxed a bit. The apparent bad news re: Lucas is just awful, he showed his value in that first half by not being on the pitch. What was that Joni Mitchell song again...

Offline OperationIvy

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2014, 08:37:10 pm »
I think this is down to a little inexperience from the manager.

Hw saw that 442 worked well in the second half against Stoke and thought it would work again. He has previously done this with the the 352 formation.

I think its merely just a lesson learned. Hopefully BR will have the confidence to always start with his preferred 433 (arguably 451) formation no matter what and only change when its not working.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2014, 08:51:49 pm »
Brendan got it wrong here and didn't adapt quickly enough, plain and simple. I do think he had a plan to play a more end to end game than maybe Villa are used to, rather than forcing them deep and letting them counter-attack us, with the aim of simply outscoring them. For whatever reason Villa decided to press us heavily and we weren't set up to deal with it. After the initial mistake the right substitutions were made and if Lucas hadn't picked up a knock I think we would've won, things just didn't go our way for the last 30 minutes and as a result we drew.

I'm not sure what's happening with Coutinho but his form has really been off, he can do the simple things well but it seems every shot or killer pass is wayward these days. If we had another capable wide player I'd expect him to have been dropped by now but again the lack of depth has left us a little stuck. Now that Sturridge is back it might be good for Philipe to drop to the bench for a game or two, the only question is how do we fit Luis and Danny into the team?

I'm a bit torn on Stevie. On the one hand he was very sloppy with the ball and poorly positioned when defending, but on the other you have to question why he was given that role in the first place. I think everyone can see that he really isn't suited to that deeper role, in fact he's not even that suited to a two man midfield now that he can't sprint back all game. Rafa had the right idea pushing Stevie up behind the striker and having a two man midfield behind him, and as it stands I'd rather play him as a striker than a defensive midfielder and I hope we don't see him there again.

I don't think this is the end of the world for us either, we're still in top four form despite the losses over Christmas and it's really difficult to see any of the teams below being better than us over the rest of the season. With Sakho, Enrique and Agger to return, and Allen and Sturridge just back, we should be set to finish the season strongly. If we can keep the rest of the squad fit and supplement it with one or two new faces we've got a good chance of ending the season well. The loss of Lucas is a big blow but we're better positioning to cover it than maybe we were under Kenny.

It's worth remembering too that last season we finished 7th and had some horrible results along the way. We've had a really good season so far but poor results are always going to pop up now and then. Spurs have a few tough fixtures approaching and we have a chance to take a few points from Everton soon, so our fate is still very much in our own hands.

Offline Easy

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2014, 08:55:26 pm »
One of those games where nearly everyone has an off-day including the manager. When the player you bring on to make a difference goes off shortly afterwards, you know it's not your day. Awful game to watch and Brendan must have been just a little embarrassed that Henry was in the stands for that one.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 09:07:14 pm »
First of all I rate Rodgers very highly and I am made up he is our manager. We also have just terrible injury problems at the moment which unfortunately are even worse now. How many times have we been able to put the same back four out for more than two weeks in a row this season? I would guess not very often. A stable defence is so important IMO.

Judging the game itself:

BR got it badly wrong in the first half. Fair play for putting it right at the break, bit that starting 11 was on a hiding to nothing. It worries me that he has made this mistake a few times before. Gerard has shown tome and again that he has to be part of a three-man midfield. 4-2-4 has been tried and failed a few times already this season. I hope he has finally learnt his lesson. It has to be just 3 of Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho or we are going to get overrun.

On form I would go for Sterling over Phil at the moment. Yes, that means Sturridge has to go wide, but that's just the way it is. Suarez is the nest in the league so he plays in the centre. Sturridge will just have to accept that.

If Lucas is out for the rumoured six weeks then we are in big trouble. We badly need competition/back-up for him. It is concerning that this has not been addressed already. I know it is difficult to find quality players, but we don't have anyone who is a natural, traditional DM and has been obvious for ages that we need one.

That back four is very weak. Ideally, none of those would be starters for us anymore. We need to buy a replacement for Johnson and probably a new LB as well.
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Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2014, 09:09:31 pm »
I think this is down to a little inexperience from the manager.

Hw saw that 442 worked well in the second half against Stoke and thought it would work again. He has previously done this with the the 352 formation.

I think its merely just a lesson learned. Hopefully BR will have the confidence to always start with his preferred 433 (arguably 451) formation no matter what and only change when its not working.
Problem is, he did it once or twice last season and didn't learn. Maybe, seeing City doing so well with only two midfielders and overloading the opposition, he thought that it was possible with our new-look attack ('new-look' cf. last season). Now he must know for sure that we don't have the defensive/midfield personnel to do it. Not yet, anyway.  ;)

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2014, 09:15:09 pm »
Could see this one coming a mile off. The team lineup was very positive, and on paper it looked as though we could quite easily blow Villa away, but in reality we played right in to their hands. They're a team set up to play on the counter attack. They play long balls to Benteke and play off second balls. The likes of Agbonlahor and Weimann aren't World beaters by any means, but they're canny, and they've got a lot of pace and directness about their game. The amount of times that Benteke was heading things back into masses of space for Agbonlahor and Weimann to run onto was madness.

I remember Rodgers taking Suso off after 20 in a game last season and introducing Henderson, not because Suso was playing poorly, because he was one of our brightest players in that opening stages, but because the team/set up we started with wasn't working. Yesterday should have been the same. That Villa goal came after 25 minutes, but anyone with a pair of eyes could see it coming long before that point. For me it should never have been allowed to happen. I genuinely wanted/thought Rodgers was going to have Lucas readied before the 20 minute mark. It wasn't like Villa were just nicking half chances, they were walking through us whenever they fancied it. Every single time they came forward we looked all at sea, as well as completely clueless about how to stop them.

Toure and Skrtel... I hope I never have to watch another Premier League game that involves those two as a centre back pairing. Skrtel did his best yesterday, but Toure was so all over the place, there was little Skrtel could do. It's strange, because Toure looked a lot quicker, stronger, and better on the ball in the first 3 or 4 games than he does now. Is it due to a lack of game time that we're now seeing such a poor player, or are we now seeing the real Kolo Toure? A once great defender, now just a defender. Barely.

Coutinho is starting to become a concern for me. It feels like all the natural brilliance in his game is becoming less and less visible with every passing week. Last season it felt as though he was doing things on instinct, and it was working great; this year it feels like he's forcing everything he does. Every decision he makes looks forced and unnatural. I miss the Coutinho that just pops the ball off left, right, and centre and makes everything look easy. Perhaps he's trying too hard to impress big Phil in the lead up to the World cup? Or maybe it's just a classic case of second season syndrome? Whatever it is, I hope it doesn't last, because we're a totally different team with an in form Coutinho.
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Offline Not that Gareth

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2014, 09:27:12 pm »
We drew a game that in the last couple of years we would of lost, that is how i view this game.

Did we set up tactically wrong from the start? Yes we probably did, we had no control of midfield and our defense needs an awful lot work. That said, it was also a bad day at the office for a lot of the players, the tempo and pace we have come to like was not there. Regardless of what personnel was put out we were very flat at the start and allowed villa to put us on the back foot. The blame for that falls not just at Rodgers feet but the players also and given the way we have been this year I am going to presume this was a blip. Credit also has to go to villa, they started extremely well.

As i said putting this performance down to a blip, but regardless of if we finish fourth or not there has been huge improvement and the fact we are sitting here lamenting a draw after a relatively abject performance speaks volumes of how we have progressed this season.

Offline AK47

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2014, 09:32:45 pm »
This game showed how thin the squad is. Our 2nd string Defence and Midfield is mid table (at best) so without Lucas Agger etc we are going to struggle for the rest of the season. Having said that, Villa are effectively a counter attacking side, so to setup with such a lack of pressure and presence in midfield was really naive. Finally, Rafa gave up trying to play Stevie as a DM in 2005 and things haven't progressed since then, why keep trying it?
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2014, 09:40:52 pm »
School boy error. As good as the good is, lets not dress up the bad.

A point flattered.

It is like playing Fifa with my 9 year old nephew, he wants to flood his side with attacking match winners.
It never works. He knows it, but every now and then he can't stop himself from trotting out that Ardiles formation.
Getting carried away. I tell him, stop, look at the balance of your team.
You need some water-carriers.

Without transitions, your attacking dynamites are just chasing back.
He still insists. As a good uncle I let him win his share.

But he is learning, the concept of attacking and defensive balance is filtering through.
Not there yet, but he's a little less gun-ho.
Everyone knows how Villa plays.
Tactical faux pas.

The Rodgers Black Hole. Over emphasis on attacking plays,
blindness to the other party's fortitude and zeal.
You press Liverpool high up the pitch,
we bleed.

And we keep on bleeding,
from the same places.
the cerebellum's gone.
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Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2014, 09:41:10 pm »
A while ago, might have been under Kenny, a game against Villa brought home how badly we needed Lucas (who was injured at that time). We went on being ripped apart for a couple of games, until hard graft and a collection of three midfielders, including Allen, finally managed to get us some control in midfield.

So, on Saturday, with a then-fit Lucas available, we opted to go 442 with neither Lucas nor Allen on the pitch. Was really worried when I saw the teamsheet. The game kicked off and , whilst singing 'poetry in motion', it became instantely clear that we couldn't keep hold of the ball, or win it back, or find enough shape to even start our passing game.

When Lucas came on, he seemed determined to turn the game around, and his solidity and intelligence, along with enthusiam, put us into control. We had our best spell with him on the pitch. I don't think we played to the same level with Allen on the pitch, but maybe Villa had recovered a bit by then. Really hope Lucas is ok, though I fear its his knee gone again.

Think Rodgers fell for the 'play all the best players' option, with Sturridge back and as he didn't want to drop Sterling our Coutinho, he destroyed our midfield. I get the feeling that he doesn't like playing a real DM, since he's come here he's tried to replace Lucas (or his position), first by playing Allen there, now he's trying Gerrard. Everytime we've ended up playing Lucas there again because it gives us so much more control and enables our fast passing attacking game.

Someone needs to tell Countinho that he's trying to hard. Maybe a rest will do him good, or a few goals.
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Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2014, 10:03:03 pm »
We played very very badly for some periods. Our passing never got going. I remember thinking why do Villa seem to have the ball at their feet and look composed while we're continually chasing bouncing balls and scraps?

I think it came down to them compressing our game and we didn't have the movement to find space. Players dwelled on the ball just a bit too long, and when the delivery came it was mishit, or just given away cheaply. Furthermore, without the ball, we didn't work hard enough to get it back.

I did think Gerrard was a passenger in the first half. He wasn't there to clean up scraps and stop their midfield pushing on. When he did get on the ball he looked to swing us forward on attack too quickly when we just needed to settle on the ball a bit and look to manoeuvre and tire villa. For a controller, he didn't control any aspect of the game. I think the solution is to play him with spoilers and ball winners (if we use him as a controller)

I don't think either Toure or Cissokho are quite at the level were looking for. Too many defensive lapses, look shaky on the ball and positionally suspect. We've gone from looking formidable across the back to leaking goals from everywhere.

Mignolet hasn't had a good run of games either. Was completely at fault for the 2nd goal. Should've communicated with GJ, as that would've never gone in otherwise.

Coutinho looks like he needs a rest. Been below his best for about 3-4 games now.

Offline Pistolero

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2014, 10:05:22 pm »
School boy error. As good as the good is, lets not dress up the bad.

A point flattered.

It is like playing Fifa with my 9 year old nephew, he wants to flood his side with attacking match winners.
It never works. He knows it, but every now and then he can't stop himself from trotting out that Ardiles formation.
Getting carried away. I tell him, stop, look at the balance of your team.
You need some water-carriers.

Without transitions, your attacking dynamites are just chasing back.
He still insists. As a good uncle I let him win his share.

But he is learning, the concept of attacking and defensive balance is filtering through.
Not there yet, but he's a little less gun-ho.
Everyone knows how Villa plays.
Tactical faux pas.

The Rodgers Black Hole. Over emphasis on attacking plays,
blindness to the other party's fortitude and zeal.
You press Liverpool high up the pitch,
we bleed.

And we keep on bleeding,
from the same places.
the cerebellum's gone.

concise and poetic....very nicely put  ;D
They have life in them, they have humour, they're arrogant, they're cocky and they're proud. And that's what I want my team to be.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2014, 10:36:08 pm »
I posted this in the post-match thread, hopefully it's thoughtful enough for the round table thread:

In a 442, with true wide midfielders, there is no DM. You have two CM, and maybe one is more defense/cover minded while the other is the more creating/attack minded.

In the first half, we had Coutinho on the left and Sterling on the right flank of the middle 4 of a 442. At most, it was a lopsided 442, with Sterling being the 'truer' wide midfielder/forward and Coutinho more likely to drift in to become a central advanced midfielder.

Whatever it was exactly, the fact of the matter is that Gerrard ended up operating as the most withdrawn central midfielder. Coutinho did some forward marking, and a very bad impersonation of flank midfielder marking.

Instead of being patient in possession and slowly building up our attack (which would allow for forward marking, hunting in packs, regaining possession and/or forestalling quick counterattacks) we appeared to (whether by design or 'naturally) wish to hit THEM on the counter, counter-attacking off their 'failed' counter-attacks. Not surprisingly, our first-half goal did NOT result from any such counter-to-the-counter attack.

In the second half, we allegedly not only substituted Lucas for Coutinho but also went to a back three, but with one of them being Glen Johnson. Gerrard said so, Lee Dixon said so, I have to say I didn't see it but I'll take Stevie's word for it. With Lucas, we were therefore 13142 with Cissokho and Sterling as the flanks of the 4 (WBs). and inverted triangle (1-2, Lucas, Gerrard-Henderson).

When Lucas had to come out, I think we went to a 13412 with Gerrard and Henderson interchanging as either part of the middle of the 4  (along with Allen) or being the 1. Eventually, Gerrard become almost a 'center forward' On a different day, Suarez's free-kick goes in, or his shot off Johnson's quickly taken free-kick goes to one of the two top corners instead of right at Guzan, or Sturridge passes to Sterling for a shot from inside the box, or his shot is better, etc.

Despite some hand-in-mouth moments in the 2nd half, the truth of the matter is that Villa were not dangerous, especially after Holt came in for Abgonlahor.

Given how comprehensively we were outwitted, outplayed, out-managed, in the first half, a 2-2 draw seems like a 'fair result'. Both goals we conceded were readily preventable without heroic adjustments, true, but they missed as many glaring chances, as well. By rights, Abgonlahor ought to have scored with his early chance, for example.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2014, 10:58:57 pm »
I posted this in the post-match thread, hopefully it's thoughtful enough for the round table thread:

In a 442, with true wide midfielders, there is no DM. You have two CM, and maybe one is more defense/cover minded while the other is the more creating/attack minded.



It's not as absolute as that. You can play with two pure defensive mids, with the wings your creative outlets and one of the forwards as a second striker. Or you can have one sitting midfield and one box-to-box, which is what we were attempting. The problem is that if you play two out and out wingers, they have to be a left- and right-footer. You can play them inverted, as was the fashion about 5 years ago, but a right-footed left winger and a right-footed right winger in a 4-4-2 will unbalance your team. The box-to-box runner also has to be a good long shooter, and has to make LATE runs, rather than just running flat out into the attack - and both of these traits are not really Henderson's forte. He gets too flat with the forwards and doesn't have the range of prime-age Gerrard, nor the timing of a Lampard, to be able to do that job in a midfield two. So effectively we ended up with two right wingers (Sterling and Johnson), three strikers (Suarez, Sturridge and Henderson), and inside left forward (Coutinho), a holding mid, a left back, and two central defenders defending the width of the pitch. We were very unbalanced towards the right until Rodgers made the change to the shape, and once it was all corrected we gained more consistent shape, spread the play and played better.
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Offline -Daws-

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2014, 11:03:26 pm »
It's not as absolute as that. You can play with two pure defensive mids, with the wings your creative outlets and one of the forwards as a second striker. Or you can have one sitting midfield and one box-to-box, which is what we were attempting. The problem is that if you play two out and out wingers, they have to be a left- and right-footer. You can play them inverted, as was the fashion about 5 years ago, but a right-footed left winger and a right-footed right winger in a 4-4-2 will unbalance your team. The box-to-box runner also has to be a good long shooter, and has to make LATE runs, rather than just running flat out into the attack - and both of these traits are not really Henderson's forte. He gets too flat with the forwards and doesn't have the range of prime-age Gerrard, nor the timing of a Lampard, to be able to do that job in a midfield two. So effectively we ended up with two right wingers (Sterling and Johnson), three strikers (Suarez, Sturridge and Henderson), and inside left forward (Coutinho), a holding mid, a left back, and two central defenders defending the width of the pitch. We were very unbalanced towards the right until Rodgers made the change to the shape, and once it was all corrected we gained more consistent shape, spread the play and played better.

It's a couple of times now Brendan has sacrificed balance to try and start key/in form players. Just wonder why he feels the need to do it, any ideas?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2014, 11:05:55 pm »
It's a couple of times now Brendan has sacrificed balance to try and start key/in form players. Just wonder why he feels the need to do it, any ideas?

I couldn't tell you. Like the four central defenders, it's a head-scratcher. Maybe he gives players too much respect?
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Offline justsean

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2014, 11:10:39 pm »
Quick question, that some of you might have some logical explanation for.

Why did we seem to always attack down the left using Cissokho and Henderson as opposed to down the right with Johnson and Sterling?

I couldn't make sense of it as the odd time we did go down the right I think we looked far more threatening.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2014, 11:15:09 pm »
I couldn't tell you. Like the four central defenders, it's a head-scratcher. Maybe he gives players too much respect?
I think Rodgers just absolutely loves football and gets carried away with it sometimes. Listen to him talking about Suarez after Norwich - he's like a fan, he talks about Gerrard like that sometimes. I think that's a big reason why the media like him - his sheer enthusiasm gets under your skin - you can't help it. Maybe I'm being insane here but I think he's got a little touch of Shankly about him in that respect. Yes, he is very clever, he works insanely hard, he's got a ruthless streak - but he's no Villas Boas or Rafa, he isn't a football intellectual, and analyst obsessed with getting that extra 0.01% out of a system. He's a dreamer, he's in love with the game wholly and completely and he doesn't just want to win, he wants to do it with flair, with romance. The form we're in, the players we've got - he wants to see that all work on the pitch as much as we do. There may come a time when we are good enough for the type of line-up we put out yesterday to terrify a poor team into submission before we set foot onto the pitch - but we're not there yet and we won't be for a while.

We'll get mistakes like this again though - I'd put money on Rodgers getting at least one schooling in the CL if we make it - but we also get the pleasure of watching a team that wins while scoring a hatful of goals as a matter of (almost) routine. But that's the deal isn't it? He is very good, but he's always going to have matches that leave us yearning for a Rafa, just as Rafa had matches that left us yearning for a Rodgers.

Perhaps one day they will mate and produce the perfect Liverpool manager, until then we'll just have to put up with the odd Villa in amongst the cocked Spurs.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2014, 11:21:04 pm »
Perhaps one day they will mate and produce the perfect Liverpool manager, until then we'll just have to put up with the odd Villa in amongst the cocked Spurs.

You mean something like a Rodga Brenditez?
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2014, 11:31:20 pm »
You mean something like a Rodga Brenditez?
They already did. Pep Guardiola.

Offline Melbourne Red

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2014, 11:35:28 pm »
As I'm always looking for positives, I suppose the fact that we fought back and rescued a point when:

1. Mignolet - Cissokho - Toure - Gerrard - Coutinho - Suarez - Johnson (in an attacking sense) were all way below par.
2. Brendan got the non selection of Lucas or Allen wrong.
3. Villa played actually very well :o
4. Even of our better performers only Skrtel & Henderson had consistent games - Sturridge & Sterling had good moments.

Every team, good or bad, have ordinary days & this was one of ours.
Aston Villa are not a collection of witches hats as some thought they would be - not enough credit to them from some.

A good kick up the backside for the manager, players & supporters won't do us any harm in the long run.

Offline Melbourne Red

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2014, 11:36:42 pm »
PS: It doesn't help when Agger, Enrique, Flanno & Sakho are not fit to play!

Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2014, 11:40:34 pm »
They already did. Pep Guardiola.

He's in the right mould then :D

Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2014, 11:53:19 pm »
@PoP

What do you think about playing a 4-3-3 with Suarez as a left forward?

With the general idea being that we can play both Suarez and Sturridge in attack whilst also having a midfield three, could it work?

Offline FernandoTourettes

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2014, 11:58:09 pm »
Many parts of our machine not running smoothly at the moment.

Think it would help if Rodgers plays his cards a little closer to his chest in the future. Gerrard admits he was totally over run the first half, Lambert had all week to prepare his team to do so because Gerrard was supposed to be Pirlo.

Bellamy had a small moan in his autobiography that Rafa wouldn't even let the team know who was playing just before a game. Whilst that is extreme, there is plenty of benefit gained from keeping the opposing team guessing.

5 goals conceded in our last 2 games against Stoke and Villa doesn't reflect well on our defence.



Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2014, 11:58:12 pm »
@PoP

What do you think about playing a 4-3-3 with Suarez as a left forward?

With the general idea being that we can play both Suarez and Sturridge in attack whilst also having a midfield three, could it work?

It could work, but it wouldn't get the best out of Suarez. But Suarez's best is miles ahead of anyone else, so even a slightly restricted Suarez is a huge danger :D

He's played the role for Ajax, so it wouldn't be new to him - but the freedom he gets right now is part of why he scores so much. It would be better to shift Sturridge out wide and not lose that edge to Suarez's game, and give Sturridge the freedom to move inside, than it would be to restrict Suarez to a wing. It might also be a horses for courses thing, too - Suarez in the free role against the bottom 13 teams where we can go out and attack, and Sturridge in the central forward position when we have to counter-attack, with Suarez wide.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2014, 12:00:39 am »
Many parts of our machine not running smoothly at the moment.

Think it would help if Rodgers plays his cards a little closer to his chest in the future. Gerrard admits he was totally over run the first half, Lambert had all week to prepare his team to do so because Gerrard was supposed to be Pirlo.

Bellamy had a small moan in his autobiography that Rafa wouldn't even let the team know who was playing just before a game. Whilst that is extreme, there is plenty of benefit gained from keeping the opposing team guessing.

5 goals conceded in our last 2 games against Stoke and Villa doesn't reflect well on our defence.

They targeted Gerrard because of what he can do with the ball, not the position he was playing. The plan was to stop him switching the play and getting the ball long to Suarez and Sturridge's feet. They would have done that if we'd started with a midfield three with Lucas in the holding role.
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Offline wemmick

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2014, 12:07:36 am »
I think yesterday was all about the midfield selection. We couldn't keep control of the midfield and were sloppy in defense. Two goals down and we burned out in frustration (perhaps Gerrard more than most). We had no patience or intelligent team play in the last half hour. You'd think coming back from two down would give us impetus to push on, and patiently play for a winner, but we didn't have patience or energy by the time Allen came on.

That said, if a bad day in the office means a draw instead of a loss, I'll certainly take it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 12:17:06 am by wemmick »

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2014, 12:11:49 am »
They targeted Gerrard because of what he can do with the ball, not the position he was playing. The plan was to stop him switching the play and getting the ball long to Suarez and Sturridge's feet. They would have done that if we'd started with a midfield three with Lucas in the holding role.

True. And why would we need to have Gerrard getting the ball long to Suarez and Sturridge's feet, though?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2014, 12:12:43 am »
True. And why would we need to have Gerrard getting the ball long to Suarez and Sturridge's feet, though?

I don't understand your question. Why wouldn't we?
Better looking than Samie.