Author Topic: The NFL Thread  (Read 2777607 times)

Offline redwillow

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62920 on: January 18, 2022, 10:41:45 am »
I know very little about NFL, although I really enjoy watching it, but I find it amazing that outside of the QB individual players can make such a massive difference to the fortunes of a team. With the QB it makes sense, it's clearly a very hard position to play and you need outrageous ability in all sorts of different ways. But when the likes of Hopkins gets injured and your whole offence goes to pot... how is it that a position that is seemingly mostly about being a physical specimen and having great hand eye coordination can see such colossal levels between players such that the backups for Hopkins can't do close to what he does. This applies to loads of positions. Some players are just WAY better at rushing the passer than others, but why? You'd of thought, from an ignorant lay person's perspective, that it's basically all down to physical attributes, but it clearly isn't, because the physical differences between a Hopkins and whoever has replaced him is probably tiny, but the difference in outcome is massive. I guess there are skill elements of being a receiver that I just don't see or understand but even these must be pretty small and in lots of ways, 'in the head', rather than much obvious technical superiority.

In the simplest way possible. Look at what happens when Salah is out for Liverpool, or VVD, or Trent.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62921 on: January 18, 2022, 02:50:18 pm »
I know very little about NFL, although I really enjoy watching it, but I find it amazing that outside of the QB individual players can make such a massive difference to the fortunes of a team. With the QB it makes sense, it's clearly a very hard position to play and you need outrageous ability in all sorts of different ways. But when the likes of Hopkins gets injured and your whole offence goes to pot... how is it that a position that is seemingly mostly about being a physical specimen and having great hand eye coordination can see such colossal levels between players such that the backups for Hopkins can't do close to what he does. This applies to loads of positions. Some players are just WAY better at rushing the passer than others, but why? You'd of thought, from an ignorant lay person's perspective, that it's basically all down to physical attributes, but it clearly isn't, because the physical differences between a Hopkins and whoever has replaced him is probably tiny, but the difference in outcome is massive. I guess there are skill elements of being a receiver that I just don't see or understand but even these must be pretty small and in lots of ways, 'in the head', rather than much obvious technical superiority.

Just to piggyback on that....

I hate how, if the QB is out - the back up is nowhere near the right level and it's almost certain that team will lose.

I love the sport, but it's so dependable on one player (where football isn't)
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Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62922 on: January 18, 2022, 02:54:46 pm »
In the simplest way possible. Look at what happens when Salah is out for Liverpool, or VVD, or Trent.
I suppose there's intangibles that just make a player better, outside of physicality. Our football isn't always the most analogous to American, but the above I agree with.

Ruben Loftus Cheek vs Luka Modric for example. Both Central Midfielders. Loftus Cheek is quicker, stronger, bigger, more powerful. But he's nowhere near as good as the small and far-from-powerful Modric. There's way more to it than just physical attributes.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62923 on: January 18, 2022, 02:57:17 pm »
Just to piggyback on that....

I hate how, if the QB is out - the back up is nowhere near the right level and it's almost certain that team will lose.

I love the sport, but it's so dependable on one player (where football isn't)

it's been an eternal struggle among a country of over 300 million people to find 32 genuinely good enough to play QB in the NFL. let alone decent backups.

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62924 on: January 18, 2022, 03:01:23 pm »
it's been an eternal struggle among a country of over 300 million people to find 32 genuinely good enough to play QB in the NFL. let alone decent backups.
It is a bit bizarre, it always wows me how their isn't at least a few hundred elite QBs knocking round the league at any one time, especially seeing as they range in age from 23 - 44. It's just bizarre that so few can compete to the highest level. Realistically the league has what, 12 - 20 'elite to good' QBs then others filling numbers or massively outstaying their welcome through lack of competition.

The Saints were even trying to prise Andrew Luck out of retirement rather than rely on a third string QB this year. It's weird. But maybe a modern QB has so much asked of them that you really do need to be a generational talent to play it to a good standard. I suppose the pool they're picking from isn't massive - most QBs were the starters at D1 Colleges and by dint of being the starter, robbed the other QB talents in those colleges of valuable minutes and chance to showcase themselves.

It's a fascinating set up to someone like me looking in, trying to learn more about the sport. Imagine our footballers got picked up by Unis (many of which they would never get accepted by on academic grounds) and had to wait until they'd graduated at 21/22 to play professionally. I once played in front of 2,000 people playing for my Uni football team and it was immense, can't imagine what it's like for teenagers to bowl out in front of 60k in these University superdomes.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 03:03:56 pm by Drinks Sangria »
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Offline skipper757

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62925 on: January 18, 2022, 03:22:38 pm »
I know very little about NFL, although I really enjoy watching it, but I find it amazing that outside of the QB individual players can make such a massive difference to the fortunes of a team. With the QB it makes sense, it's clearly a very hard position to play and you need outrageous ability in all sorts of different ways. But when the likes of Hopkins gets injured and your whole offence goes to pot... how is it that a position that is seemingly mostly about being a physical specimen and having great hand eye coordination can see such colossal levels between players such that the backups for Hopkins can't do close to what he does. This applies to loads of positions. Some players are just WAY better at rushing the passer than others, but why? You'd of thought, from an ignorant lay person's perspective, that it's basically all down to physical attributes, but it clearly isn't, because the physical differences between a Hopkins and whoever has replaced him is probably tiny, but the difference in outcome is massive. I guess there are skill elements of being a receiver that I just don't see or understand but even these must be pretty small and in lots of ways, 'in the head', rather than much obvious technical superiority.

Good observations.  There sometimes is a minimal drop-off but sometimes a major one (that can be amplified and taken advantage of).  Some of the gap could come down to a few areas:
1. Technical aspects
-While the gap may not be massive, there's a difference in ability to run clean routes, run block, etc that goes beyond the physical ability and catching ability.  Some guys have the physical capabilities and are good catchers of the ball but may struggle in other aspects that impact their playing time and ability to get open to make those plays.

2. Familiarity/Timing
-This is feeding into the mental aspects of the game you mentioned.  Familiarity with the QB, offensive play calling, scheme, adjustments, etc.  Receivers that start and are part of the first-team reps get that comfort with quarterbacks.  Backups may not have that down.  You'll see miscommunications, poor timing/reads, etc on the field.  There's also the trust factor.  If the backup receiver is just a little less competent in various aspects, as a QB (and as the play caller), you may want to look at other targets, and the entire gameplan may change.  The defense will also respond accordingly, so the loss of a player like Hopkins can have a knock-on effect.

3. Roles
-Some players may have a similar position to others but will have preferences where they line up and operate on the field.  Receivers are a good example of some being more comfortable operating on the outside and others being more comfortable inside.  So you could have the depth, but it's hard to have top second options for all specific roles.  This will often go hand in hand with the technical aspects but of course physicality as well.  The combination of size/speed does reach a level for these roles that even other physically-gifted backups can't reach.

With the salary cap in place, teams can't really afford to have top-notch players all around for depth.  They can try to replicate the best they can (e.g. have a receiver that has at least can reach a level of physical and technical ability that is close to Hopkins) or shift the gameplan altogether to cover for his absence (which can be easy or hard depending on personnel, coaching, time to prep, etc).

For football analogy, I think the Trent example is a great one.  There are some ridiculously good attacking fullbacks in modern football, yet his ability and our style of play really is quite unique, and there's very little chance any backup can operate like he can (even if stylistically and physically players like Neco are able deputies, you still lose a lot).  It doesn't mean we can't win matches without him, but in some moments/matches, it could prove decisive since he's so important to how we play.
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Offline Statto Red

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62926 on: January 18, 2022, 03:32:50 pm »
Good point, salary cap is everything, elite qbs get paid around $30-$40 million a year, even decent qb could set you back at least $20 million a year plus, that's a large chunk out of the salary cap, then you then have to fill the team with 52 other players & be under the salary cap at the same time, the salary cap for 2022 season is set at $208.2 million, so you can't afford 2 or more elite qbs.

Reason why teams want that elite qb, is he makes the difference between a playoff run & super bowl, or mediocrity, that's why the Bucs went all in on Brady, & it paid off straight away with a super bowl win.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 03:35:09 pm by Statto Red »
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62927 on: January 18, 2022, 03:34:58 pm »
Just to piggyback on that....

I hate how, if the QB is out - the back up is nowhere near the right level and it's almost certain that team will lose.

I love the sport, but it's so dependable on one player (where football isn't)
2001 Patriots Drew Bledsoe who was the highest paid QB in the NFL went down early in the season and a 6th round draft pick replaced him. ;D
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62928 on: January 18, 2022, 03:59:35 pm »
2001 Patriots Drew Bledsoe who was the highest paid QB in the NFL went down early in the season and a 6th round draft pick replaced him. ;D
nevermind Foles a couple of years back :D
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Offline Darkness

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62929 on: January 18, 2022, 05:08:20 pm »
Divisional round predictions

NFC
Rams to beat Buccaneers
Packers to beat 49ers

AFC
Titans to beat Bengals
Bills to beat Cheifs
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 06:43:09 pm by Darkness »

Offline Lotus Eater

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62930 on: January 18, 2022, 06:04:59 pm »
Divisional round predictions

NFC
Rams to beat Buccaneers
Packers to beat 49ers

AFC
Bengals to beat Titans
Bills to beat Cheifs

I think Titans will win

The Bills/Chiefs could be the best game of the weekend.
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Offline Lone Star Red

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62931 on: January 18, 2022, 06:11:35 pm »
it's been an eternal struggle among a country of over 300 million people to find 32 genuinely good enough to play QB in the NFL. let alone decent backups.

It’s the hardest position in all of sports and it’s not really close.

Don’t think there’s a single analogous position in another sport without making major concessions or grasping at straws a bit.
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Offline Zimagic

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62932 on: January 18, 2022, 06:29:43 pm »
It’s the hardest position in all of sports and it’s not really close.

Don’t think there’s a single analogous position in another sport without making major concessions or grasping at straws a bit.

Formula 1 is a bit similar.
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Offline RedSince86

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62933 on: January 18, 2022, 06:34:11 pm »
280 pound 6.6 Linebackers and Defensive Ends charging at you and you have a few seconds to release the ball at the most optimum moment while they are charging at you and you have to be perfect every time you throw.

Amazing how anyone can underrate a QB position, it's no surprise they get paid more than others in the sport, Athleticism, Football IQ, the ability to not panic, quick decision making, reading the game in the pocket, leadership, there are a lot of traits to play that position.

It's like people who say Baseball is a easy sport and hitting takes no skill.

If you hit the ball 3 times our of every 10 times over a career then you are a great player, no player in the history of the game finished a career with hitting the ball 4 times out of every 10, you hit it 2 out of every 10 times over a career then you are mediocre to average.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 06:37:53 pm by RedSince86 »
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Offline Linudden

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62934 on: January 18, 2022, 07:19:32 pm »
The wildcard expansion really has been dreadful. Both #7 seeds getting blown out and the lure of the 4-5 games get diminished by there being so many other ones out there. They should just revert but I guess 'muh revenue' is too important even though the teams really aren't allowed to spend it.

Player of the weekend was undoubtedly Mahomes, those 11 minutes where he threw five touchdown passes were borderline ridiculous. He just had enough after the fumble and went to work reminiscent of that Houston turnaround two years ago. The others are lucky he doesn't play like that every week.

San Francisco did a really good game to wreck Dallas' ambitions away from home and I'm looking forward to see what they can do against Green Bay's historically weak run defence. Tampa vs LA Rams with the pass rush of the latter steaming into Brady should be interesting and the big one should be Kansas City vs Buffalo. That has all the hallmarks for a classic already. Those are two quarterbacks really putting it all on the line when the playoffs come around. Looking forward to crazy scrambles in that one.

Tennessee vs Cincinnati all depends on how many players on the defence that the Bengals can wheel out for that game. Otherwise it risks being a one-sided Tennessee run game procession where they don't even have to throw the ball.
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Offline Linudden

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62935 on: January 18, 2022, 07:35:59 pm »
With the salary cap in place, teams can't really afford to have top-notch players all around for depth.  They can try to replicate the best they can (e.g. have a receiver that has at least can reach a level of physical and technical ability that is close to Hopkins) or shift the gameplan altogether to cover for his absence (which can be easy or hard depending on personnel, coaching, time to prep, etc).

What keeps Kansas City in such a position is also their ability to use lower draft picks to spot gems. If you know exactly what you're looking for, it doesn't have to be a fancy first-round pick in order to secure the real deal if you're willing to develop a raw talent others perceive not quite ready for NFL stardom. Both Kelce and Hill went after the first round, the latter quite deep into it. Picking up Harrison Butker as a waived seventh-rounder from Carolina and turning him into a top three kicker in the league. Also last summer they found a way to draft Trey Smith in round six since others weren't ready to take a chance on someone with a history of medical issues. Even as a rookie he looks right in place in that O-line. Also have to mention Creed Humphrey as an amazing draft pick for when they got him.

That's the only way to do it and be competitive for a long time, be really serious and considerate about what you do on draft day, don't throw away picks for short-term gain unless you get mid-rounders in return. The way both Belichick and Reid draft is key to the longevity of their divisional dominance. Short-term free agent or big-name trade franchises like the Rams and Bucs are living on borrowed time doing it the way they deal with things. Both have the makings of a mid-10's Denver Broncos and it could get really ugly when the show is over.

There's a reason teams who happened to get it right like Atlanta and Philadelphia vanished as quickly as they arrived over more well-ran franchises who build for the long term instead. To do what the Rams did in order to get Matthew Stafford was outright silly. He's a very good quarterback but you can't give away that many firsts if you want to be up there for a long time. Sooner or later that's going to bite you in the tail and hard.
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Offline skipper757

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62936 on: January 18, 2022, 08:23:49 pm »
It is a bit bizarre, it always wows me how their isn't at least a few hundred elite QBs knocking round the league at any one time, especially seeing as they range in age from 23 - 44. It's just bizarre that so few can compete to the highest level. Realistically the league has what, 12 - 20 'elite to good' QBs then others filling numbers or massively outstaying their welcome through lack of competition.

The Saints were even trying to prise Andrew Luck out of retirement rather than rely on a third string QB this year. It's weird. But maybe a modern QB has so much asked of them that you really do need to be a generational talent to play it to a good standard. I suppose the pool they're picking from isn't massive - most QBs were the starters at D1 Colleges and by dint of being the starter, robbed the other QB talents in those colleges of valuable minutes and chance to showcase themselves.

It's a fascinating set up to someone like me looking in, trying to learn more about the sport. Imagine our footballers got picked up by Unis (many of which they would never get accepted by on academic grounds) and had to wait until they'd graduated at 21/22 to play professionally. I once played in front of 2,000 people playing for my Uni football team and it was immense, can't imagine what it's like for teenagers to bowl out in front of 60k in these University superdomes.

Very difficult position as others have stated.  What makes it hard also is that the high school and collegiate systems are not optimized for talent development.  Coaches are coaching for wins and their own jobs.  For example, if you have a gifted athlete (dual threat like Jackson, Allen, etc) with a good arm, true development for him would be for him to work on footwork, pocket presence, mechanics, and eventually more of a grasp of a NFL playbook with higher-level decision-making.  But if you're a high school coach trying to win games, you're going to do what the player is comfortable doing and for you to win, and that's often having your QB (who also plays other positions), who runs a 4.4, run around kids that'll never make it even at the collegiate level.  It'd be great to sacrifice wins for technical and mental development, but that's an academy mindset and not necessarily the schools'.  Some high schools and universities are renowned than others for developing and at least preparing players for the next level up, but it's still not going to be the same.  Luckily, schools and NFL have offenses that are a lot more similar these days than before, and top QBs don't necessarily need years of learning to get going when they go from high school to college and then from college to the pros.

The level of competition is also hard to judge.  As much as we can study the plays, it's still hard to see just how it translates.  Alabama had Devonta Smith, Jerry Jeudy, Henry Ruggs, and Jaylen Waddle in the same receiver room, an offensive line with a bunch of pro prospects, and Najee Harris.  How good will Mac/Tua be?  We can delve into footwork, arm strength, decision-making, recognition, etc, but when they're scoring 50 on a mediocre opponent, it's still hard to truly tell how it'll translate.  Bryce Young and CJ Stroud are both first-time starters at the collegiate level, and they've already put up insane numbers and are favorites for the top player taken in 2023.  But in Stroud's case, the talent disparity can still be so stark at Ohio State vs. their opponents.  Stroud had Garrett Wilson (likely first-rounder) and Chris Olave (likely first 2-3 rounds and a great route-runner) at WR.  In the Rose Bowl, Stroud didn't have either of them but still threw for 573 yards and 6 TDs against a very good Utah team.  Partly because Jaxon Smith-Njigba (#5 WR in the 2020 class out of high school) had 300 yards receiving, Marvin Harrison Jr (#14 WR in the 2021 class out of high school) caught 3 TDs, and Julian Fleming (#1 WR in the 2020 class out of high school but plagued by injuries so far) was also on the field.  Jameson Williams transferred from Ohio State to Alabama.  Imagine the wide receiver room at Ohio State where a professional prospect transfers to Alabama for opportunities.  But when CJ Stroud is a NFL rookie on a dysfunctional team, he's maybe for the first time in his football life operating at a talent disadvantage.  All the while he might still be learning the basics of the game that haven't been taught to him.
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Offline Knight

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62937 on: January 18, 2022, 09:13:06 pm »
Thanks all very helpful. The QB thing is absolutely fascinating, totally agree that it's the hardest position/role in all team sports. The football analogy doesn't seem to me to be that helpful mostly with other positions though because technical ability is so obviously vital in football and the differences are so visibly with just a little bit of understanding. Trent strikes a ball better than almost ALL his professional peers. You don't get that sort of technical differentiation in NFL outside of the QB.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62938 on: January 18, 2022, 09:24:48 pm »
Pure speculation, but it looks as if Bisaccia won't be coming back as HC for the Raiders by the way.

Coupled with Mayock being let go, he's since sent out a few messages of thanks to Mayock, Mark Davis and Raider nation, and said he expects a decision will be made by the end of this week.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62939 on: January 18, 2022, 09:38:05 pm »
Very difficult position as others have stated.  What makes it hard also is that the high school and collegiate systems are not optimized for talent development.  Coaches are coaching for wins and their own jobs.  For example, if you have a gifted athlete (dual threat like Jackson, Allen, etc) with a good arm, true development for him would be for him to work on footwork, pocket presence, mechanics, and eventually more of a grasp of a NFL playbook with higher-level decision-making.  But if you're a high school coach trying to win games, you're going to do what the player is comfortable doing and for you to win, and that's often having your QB (who also plays other positions), who runs a 4.4, run around kids that'll never make it even at the collegiate level.  It'd be great to sacrifice wins for technical and mental development, but that's an academy mindset and not necessarily the schools'.  Some high schools and universities are renowned than others for developing and at least preparing players for the next level up, but it's still not going to be the same.  Luckily, schools and NFL have offenses that are a lot more similar these days than before, and top QBs don't necessarily need years of learning to get going when they go from high school to college and then from college to the pros.

The level of competition is also hard to judge.  As much as we can study the plays, it's still hard to see just how it translates.  Alabama had Devonta Smith, Jerry Jeudy, Henry Ruggs, and Jaylen Waddle in the same receiver room, an offensive line with a bunch of pro prospects, and Najee Harris.  How good will Mac/Tua be?  We can delve into footwork, arm strength, decision-making, recognition, etc, but when they're scoring 50 on a mediocre opponent, it's still hard to truly tell how it'll translate.  Bryce Young and CJ Stroud are both first-time starters at the collegiate level, and they've already put up insane numbers and are favorites for the top player taken in 2023.  But in Stroud's case, the talent disparity can still be so stark at Ohio State vs. their opponents.  Stroud had Garrett Wilson (likely first-rounder) and Chris Olave (likely first 2-3 rounds and a great route-runner) at WR.  In the Rose Bowl, Stroud didn't have either of them but still threw for 573 yards and 6 TDs against a very good Utah team.  Partly because Jaxon Smith-Njigba (#5 WR in the 2020 class out of high school) had 300 yards receiving, Marvin Harrison Jr (#14 WR in the 2021 class out of high school) caught 3 TDs, and Julian Fleming (#1 WR in the 2020 class out of high school but plagued by injuries so far) was also on the field.  Jameson Williams transferred from Ohio State to Alabama.  Imagine the wide receiver room at Ohio State where a professional prospect transfers to Alabama for opportunities.  But when CJ Stroud is a NFL rookie on a dysfunctional team, he's maybe for the first time in his football life operating at a talent disadvantage.  All the while he might still be learning the basics of the game that haven't been taught to him.

Interesting, I don't think I'd ever considered the difference that a 'play to win mindset' had on development at high school and college level. I guess there are some upsides to player development in having meaningful games, with big crowds, from a young age too mind. Also, I've definitely never thought about the breadth of college programs and the dilution of talent as a result of that. I guess with age group national football, and also the academies, talent is more concentrated in some ways within our system, although you still get exactly the same issue where the likes of Jones are just too good for age group football. But with the football system here, if you're 17 and too good for u17s you just go up the ranks until you hit your level. In the USA if you're a Wayne Rooney equivalent, and ready for the highest level at 16, you've still got to wait till post college.

Offline Linudden

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62940 on: January 18, 2022, 11:03:47 pm »
As a quarterback you still have to have an adequate receiver who doesn't drop easy catches. It doesn't matter if you're Tom Brady if your receiver can't catch your perfect ball. Still, a really great quarterback puts the football in areas where only the receiver can make a play and not the opponent. That's what especially Rodgers does so well. He gives his receiver a chance to make a play on every ball by being so precise in taking the opportunities away from the defender. That's when an incomplete pass becomes the bare minimum. Such fine details make it safe for the coach to trust your QB in dialling up the big plays against weaker secondaries. Those windows of only the receiver being able to get the ball is almost universally less than a yard wide. You really have to nail the throw and such things are very hard to teach at an NFL level. Either you have it or you don't and that's why Brady and Rodgers have had such great longevities.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 11:05:50 pm by Lewis Hamilton’s #1 fan »
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62941 on: January 18, 2022, 11:17:35 pm »
Some great posts in here - Skipper, informative as ever for those of us still learning what we can about the game, some excellent insight into what makes the QB such a special position and why it’s not the easiest system to progress through on the way through school/college to the NFL.

Another question, on the old videos from maybe the 80s/90s and early 00s, what’s with all the artificial Astro turf pitches? They look concrete. Was the sports science not there in showing just how bad those surfaces were for players? Was it to combat the weather during winter? When did they get rid of them and for what reasons?
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62942 on: January 18, 2022, 11:56:06 pm »
Some great posts in here - Skipper, informative as ever for those of us still learning what we can about the game, some excellent insight into what makes the QB such a special position and why it’s not the easiest system to progress through on the way through school/college to the NFL.

Another question, on the old videos from maybe the 80s/90s and early 00s, what’s with all the artificial Astro turf pitches? They look concrete. Was the sports science not there in showing just how bad those surfaces were for players? Was it to combat the weather during winter? When did they get rid of them and for what reasons?

Lots of factors:

1) it was the in thing in the 70s - the idea of little no maintenance was a big deal to some owners. They also seemed cool when they put it in - especially in bad weather locations.
2) cookie cutter stadiums that served baseball AND football - the idea was the wear and tear on grass would be alleviated.
3) no one really truly complained - until the numerous ACL injury started happening wear the seams in the turf would end careers.

There were even studies that kickers gained 3-5 yards on turf kicks vs grass too. Something about the turf allowing a free swing at the ball vs the grass catching the foot a bit.

And of course after the fact - all the concussion data from what was a thin carpet over a layer of concrete.

Just horrific in retrospect.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 11:58:12 pm by newterp »

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62943 on: January 19, 2022, 11:36:16 am »
Jumping in on the QB discussion regarding back ups. I imagine development comes into the topic as well. For example a college team with 50+ players, may have 6/7 WR's who all touch the field in every game. If you are not the starting QB, your probably not touching the field unless your team is 30 points up with 5 mins to go and your then also throwing to second string recievers with a second string o-line infront of you.

Sure you can practise like hell, but we all know the best way you learn is by doing the real deal

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62944 on: January 19, 2022, 04:43:31 pm »
Lots of factors:

1) it was the in thing in the 70s - the idea of little no maintenance was a big deal to some owners. They also seemed cool when they put it in - especially in bad weather locations.
2) cookie cutter stadiums that served baseball AND football - the idea was the wear and tear on grass would be alleviated.
3) no one really truly complained - until the numerous ACL injury started happening wear the seams in the turf would end careers.

There were even studies that kickers gained 3-5 yards on turf kicks vs grass too. Something about the turf allowing a free swing at the ball vs the grass catching the foot a bit.

And of course after the fact - all the concussion data from what was a thin carpet over a layer of concrete.

Just horrific in retrospect.

Some of the pitches are still artificial surfaces though right, what do they use these days? 4g type stuff?

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62945 on: January 19, 2022, 04:50:16 pm »
I love the sport, but it's so dependable on one player (where football isn't)

Can't agree. Okay you need a QB that is at least competent, however it is more than the QB.

Without an even half decent O-line there is no protection, so no time to throw. With no ground game, there is less need to defend the run and so passing is harder and pressure on the QB is going to be much greater.
No passing game and the D will just defend the run.

If your D is no good, you will not be successful.

NFL is like an orchestra. The first chair cellist might be the nuts, but if they're playing with a Yr7 school orchestra, they will still suck a bit.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62946 on: January 19, 2022, 04:51:23 pm »
Some stadiums have what's called field turf, think Cards & Raiders stadiums are grass, which is wheeled on pallets to an area outside the stadium between games to allow the grass to grow.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62947 on: January 19, 2022, 09:24:43 pm »
Some of the pitches are still artificial surfaces though right, what do they use these days? 4g type stuff?
Houston and both LA teams has this http://www.hellasconstruction.com/2020/jan/nrg-stadium-and-hellas-construction-renew-partnership-hellas-matrix-helix-turf-system-once-again-selected-for-houston-texans/
Indy has this https://www.shawsportsturf.com/momentum/
Atl and Det uses Field turf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FieldTurf
Minn uses this https://www.actglobal.com/
Ari uses natural grass that moved in for games.
NO uses http://www.warriorturf.com/turf.html

Most outdoor stadiums used Grass. I know Metlife now has Fieldturf, 49ers where very unhappy with the turf because of the injuries one game. Seattle and NE also has Turf outside
Buffalo has this https://www.aturf.com/systems/a-turf-titan/
Packers have this https://www.packers.com/news/new-turf-ready-to-welcome-packers-into-2018-season

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62948 on: January 19, 2022, 11:33:14 pm »
Pure speculation, but it looks as if Bisaccia won't be coming back as HC for the Raiders by the way.
Bisaccia had his interview for the HC job with Mark Davis today.

For what it's worth, apparently an insider said it felt more like an exit interview, rumours continue to trend that he's done in a head coaching capacity.

I think if he is, Mark probably made his mind up around the time they announced the SB in LV a month or more back.

Raiders were in a downward slump at the time and Mark put a comment out something along the lines of "Nice to see we're winning off the field, if not on it" or something like that. Die was probably cast back then that Rich wasn't the guy to go forward with.

It's just speculation though, they may well decide to stick with him, but I don't think Mark is sold on the idea.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62949 on: January 20, 2022, 01:22:06 am »
There have been 41 QBs drafted in the first two rounds of the NFL between 2011 and 2020. I'm not going to use last year's bunch, as it would be unfair. Nearly half of those in the first ten picks. And at the end of the day how many of those QBs could be qualified as successes, even on a relatively conservative binary model that graded those picks as purely bust or success with a low bar for the latter. 10? If you expanded it to the rest of them, you likely don't even get half.

Considering the amount of draft capital and money teams invest in this position, you'd think they'd invest a bit more in scouting and player development considering everyone wants a franchise QB that they'll get ten years out of. The salary cap however means you need results faster, so a lot of players end up as cannon fodder as teams look to maximize the position while the player is still relatively cheap. Of course many shouldn't have been drafted so high (or at all) in the first place, but you have to think in some instances it would be better to take a player who can fill in an immediate need rather than going for a QB unless you have the resources in place: either the personnel to take it to the next level and/or a coach who can maximize the strengths of the QB

2011
1. Cam Newton
8. Jake Locker
10. Blaine Gabbert
12. Christian Ponder
35. Andy Dalton
36. Colin Kaepernick

2012
1. Luck
2. Griffin III
8. Tannehill
22. Weeden
57. Osweiler

2013
16. Manuel
39. Smith

2014
3. Bortles
22. Manziel
32. Bridgewater
36. Carr
62. Garappolo

2015
1. Winston
2. Mariota

2016
1. Goff
2. Wentz
26. Lynch
51. Hackenburg

2017
2. Trubisky
10. Mahomes
12. Watson
52. Kiser

2018
1. Mayfield
3. Darnold
7. Allen
10. Rosen
32. Jackson

2019
1. Murray
6. Jones
15. Haskins
42. Lock

2020

1. Burrow
5. Tagovaila
6. Herbert
26. Love
53. Hurts



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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62950 on: January 20, 2022, 02:00:53 am »
SNIP
2011
1. Cam Newton
8. Jake Locker
10. Blaine Gabbert
12. Christian Ponder
35. Andy Dalton
36. Colin Kaepernick

2012
1. Luck
2. Griffin III
8. Tannehill
22. Weeden
57. Osweiler

2013
16. Manuel
39. Smith

2014
3. Bortles
22. Manziel
32. Bridgewater
36. Carr
62. Garappolo

2015
1. Winston
2. Mariota

2016
1. Goff
2. Wentz
26. Lynch
51. Hackenburg

2017
2. Trubisky
10. Mahomes
12. Watson
52. Kiser

2018
1. Mayfield
3. Darnold
7. Allen
10. Rosen
32. Jackson

2019
1. Murray
6. Jones
15. Haskins
42. Lock

2020

1. Burrow
5. Tagovaila
6. Herbert
26. Love
53. Hurts





Bravo!! That was setup nicely.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62951 on: January 20, 2022, 08:26:21 am »
That's all very true but I'd guess something like only 50% or so of 1st/2nd round picks in general get a 2nd contract. I'm guessing there though with absolutely fuck all to back it up!

And QBs always go early these days because it's worth the risk. If you do get one you're set for at least a decade all things being equal.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62952 on: January 20, 2022, 01:40:40 pm »

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62953 on: January 20, 2022, 01:45:09 pm »
Wonder what happened to them

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62954 on: January 20, 2022, 01:47:17 pm »
I wonder if they were mentioned in the emails that disappeared.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62955 on: January 20, 2022, 02:24:27 pm »
Can't agree. Okay you need a QB that is at least competent, however it is more than the QB.

Without an even half decent O-line there is no protection, so no time to throw. With no ground game, there is less need to defend the run and so passing is harder and pressure on the QB is going to be much greater.
No passing game and the D will just defend the run.

If your D is no good, you will not be successful.

NFL is like an orchestra. The first chair cellist might be the nuts, but if they're playing with a Yr7 school orchestra, they will still suck a bit.

You make your point eloquently mate.

But if Rodgers got a season-ending injury now - they wouldn't win the Super Bowl (in my opinion)

Whereas, if we had the same with Salah before the Champions League semis, then I think we could still win it.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62956 on: January 20, 2022, 02:31:09 pm »
The NFL network is always interesting.

The Grudens and McVays go back to like the 70s.  Sean McVay joined Jon Gruden's staff when he was very young.  Eventually, he joined Washington and with Mike Shanahan, you had Kyle, Matt LaFleur, and McVay together (in that graphic).  When Mike was gone and Kyle left, who happened to take over?  Jay Gruden of course!  So McVay becomes offensive coordinator.  LaFleur went to Notre Dame (One of LaFleur's earliest jobs was at Central Michigan under Brian Kelly).  Then when Kyle Shanahan was with the Falcons, he hired LaFleur from Notre Dame.  McVay eventually hires LaFleur to be OC with the Rams.  Shanahan gets the Niners job.  LaFleur goes to the Titans to get a chance to call plays (McVay was still the play caller in LA) before getting the Packers job.

Robert Saleh, who coached a lot under Pete Carroll, got his start with Matt LaFleur at Central Michigan together under Brian Kelly (the two are very close).  Eventually, Saleh ends up under Shanahan in SF, and when he took the Jets job, he took Mike LaFleur (Matt's brother) to the Jets to be OC.  The DC hire, Jeff Ulbrich, overlapped with Kyle Shanahan in Atlanta (I'd assume Shanahan put in a good word).

There's always the Parcells/Belichick coaching tree everyone talks about, but the network is all over the NFL (e.g. Bruce Arians / Todd Bowles relationship), and it provides a lot of opportunities.  Even if it didn't work out as head coach, you always have people willing to hire you as coordinators/position coaches for you so you can build up a reputation again to get another chance.

Got to have that network.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62957 on: January 20, 2022, 02:40:01 pm »
Can't agree. Okay you need a QB that is at least competent, however it is more than the QB.

Without an even half decent O-line there is no protection, so no time to throw. With no ground game, there is less need to defend the run and so passing is harder and pressure on the QB is going to be much greater.
No passing game and the D will just defend the run.

If your D is no good, you will not be successful.

NFL is like an orchestra. The first chair cellist might be the nuts, but if they're playing with a Yr7 school orchestra, they will still suck a bit.


Perfect example of this is Andrew Luck, could easily have had a hall of fame type of career he was that good, Colts ended up winning the lottery when Peyton Manning had to miss the season with that injured neck, ended up with no1 pick & picked Luck, but the idiot of a gm the Colts had never got him any protection with a decent o-line, that he was getting beat up every game, a few times his season ended with having to have surgery, then rehabbing, in the end it took the joy out of playing the game & he decided to retire, Luck should still be playing now, if it wasn't for all those injuries he had.


As i said, the salary cap is the main issue, elite qbs will cost you around $30-40 million a year nowadays[even a decent qb could set you back around $20 million a year], & that's a large chunk of money gone from the cap, when you have to sign, up to 52 other players for other positions on the team, & be under the cap at the same time, that's why there's a huge drop off when the back up replaces the starting qb, also 2 elite qbs on the same team will cause other issues such as lack of game time for one of the qbs, that he'll end up demanding to move to another team.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62958 on: January 20, 2022, 03:19:25 pm »
the trailer for the NFL half time show is out

https://youtu.be/h3NhX6-5mO0

you'd expect it to be better than the Weekend. Probably apt that a Cali Bowl has Dr Dre. Looking forward to it more than the game :P
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 03:26:09 pm by scatman »
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #62959 on: January 20, 2022, 03:26:21 pm »
As a quarterback you still have to have an adequate receiver who doesn't drop easy catches. It doesn't matter if you're Tom Brady if your receiver can't catch your perfect ball. Still, a really great quarterback puts the football in areas where only the receiver can make a play and not the opponent. That's what especially Rodgers does so well. He gives his receiver a chance to make a play on every ball by being so precise in taking the opportunities away from the defender. That's when an incomplete pass becomes the bare minimum. Such fine details make it safe for the coach to trust your QB in dialling up the big plays against weaker secondaries. Those windows of only the receiver being able to get the ball is almost universally less than a yard wide. You really have to nail the throw and such things are very hard to teach at an NFL level. Either you have it or you don't and that's why Brady and Rodgers have had such great longevities.

One way to look at the better QB's is to think of their biggest gains being as a force multiplier to a team, they are going to elevate what talent is there, but there needs to at least be a non-zero level of competency for them to elevate to a useful degree..