Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD

[BobPaisley3]

Be interested to know if Bowen was ever a real target. Seems to be having a big season and drawing a lot of media attention

He absolutely was and still is.

[royhendo]

Our squad is very far from being old.

No it isn’t.

We were discussing this yesterday - Statsbomb posted this up the other day. I’ll try and find another with the actual ages and contract expiries specific to Liverpool because those are somewhere…

[red1977]

He absolutely was and still is.

A direct, wide forward, intelligent runs, good on the ball, knows where the net is. looks a great fit for us. Thing is, his form over the past 2 seasons isn't bringing his price down. West ham wont be keen to sell and if they do, would ask for silly money and rightly so.

[royhendo]

This'll do I guess - from earlier this week. No contract overlay but am trying to find one cos I saw one from @twentyfirstgrp on Newcastle the other day.

Edit: no - the colours apparently denote the contract situation. I prefer a little line that shows out to the right when expiry is.

[BarryCrocker]

A direct, wide forward, intelligent runs, good on the ball, knows where the net is. looks a great fit for us. Thing is, his form over the past 2 seasons isn't bringing his price down. West ham wont be keen to sell and if they do, would ask for silly money and rightly so.

It will be him OR Declan Rice that leaves if stupid money is on offer. Not both.

[BobPaisley3]

A direct, wide forward, intelligent runs, good on the ball, knows where the net is. looks a great fit for us. Thing is, his form over the past 2 seasons isn't bringing his price down. West ham wont be keen to sell and if they do, would ask for silly money and rightly so.

Yeah, and we were very quick to realise all of the above. He’s now on everyone’s radar unfortunately. Fits the age profile required too.

[cdav]

This'll do I guess - from earlier this week. No contract overlay but am trying to find one cos I saw one from @twentyfirstgrp on Newcastle the other day.

Edit: no - the colours apparently denote the contract situation. I prefer a little line that shows out to the right when expiry is.

That is a good graphic- think we need 3 or 4 in the Konate to Jota area (maybe Jones could be one of these?) to replace Milner, one of Ox/ Naby and Origi minutes and reduce/ replace the amount of Sadio/ Bobbys minutes

[DonkeyWan]

This'll do I guess - from earlier this week. No contract overlay but am trying to find one cos I saw one from @twentyfirstgrp on Newcastle the other day.

Edit: no - the colours apparently denote the contract situation. I prefer a little line that shows out to the right when expiry is.

I like the way they use the word 'prime' and extend it out to 33, like most 33 year olds in the premiership are at the top of their game. The more worrying bit is the average age line and then realising that 12 players are on or past that line.

That top right box with Mane, Salah etc. is pretty notable as most of the preferred first 11 are in it. The concentration of age and minutes is the problem.

What is kind of worrying is that TAA and Jota are the only standouts in terms of youth and playing time, with Konate and Tsimikas also contributing. You are just not seeing a big spread of young players competing with the 29-30+ year olds.

The below average squad minutes for the rest shows the distance between the first team and the rest of the players.

[Chip Evans]

This'll do I guess - from earlier this week.

That's a great graph. The 3 forwards and Naby and Ox stick out like sore thumbs there. The next 6 months are going to be really interesting. You'd have to think a max of 3 out of that cohort get new deals. Maybe even only 2.  Even 2 of them going this summer would feel like a huge turnover.

My own feeling is Bob stays for the 18 months - I'm not sure there's a big enough queue that he'd replace himself with what we'd get for him. He's got the best song and he hasn't dropped that far off a cliff. He's furniture and loved - I just can't see him leaving and us forcing him out.

It's probably not an either/or with Sadio or Mo, but the lack of noise about a contract for Sadio is a bit worrying. I'd expect it to be quiet on his side - he's not a chain rattler - but more how it hasn't been screamed about by the club or media or us. His form has been pretty good this season, he's still just under a 1 in 2 goalscorer, he's really important to how that side of the pitch functions - if Robbo or Tsimikas are having good games it usually means Sadio is having a 7.5/10 at least. But there's no mention of a contract or his situation. If Mo rejects his you'd expect it to happen. He's still a really valuable footballer which makes me worry he'd be the odd one out this season. It makes the most sense if we need to raise money for other business.

Then Ox and Naby. They should be in their prime going by the graph but injuries etc.... It's a tough one - again probably not both will go - but you'd have to think teams would want both. Naby maybe from abroad and Ox from home. We need more from their age group in the squad. You'd expect them to be the starters rather than still relying on the big names further right on the graph. But bad luck and durability hasn't let that happen. So you'd think 1 will go and 1 will be allowed see out the 18 months at the very least. I can't see either getting longer terms at the moment. Pity as they both absolutely have it in them to be fabulous footballers - but it just hasn't happened for them.  Ox would probably stay and Naby might be moved on.


All bullshit speculation of course. But the graph is really useful.

[Elzar]

If Origi isn't sold in this window, is he getting a new contract?

[cdav]

If Origi isn't sold in this window, is he getting a new contract?

Think we have an option of a 12 month extension so if he doesn't isn't sold/ doesn't sign a new deal this month it will be extended so we can try to sell in the summer

[FowlerLegend]

Our squad is very far from being old.

No it isn’t. In key positions it is already pretty old. In midfield and in the forward positions we need some new blood. Players like Jota are exactly what we need. Younger than the established starters with the ability to push them hard for starting places. I like the young midfielders but they are not at the level to challenge Henderson, Thiago, Milner and Fabinho yet. The younger senior midfielders we do have get too many injuries as we all know.

You always need an eye on the future and it is far easier to build from a position of strength.

I think we need a couple of midfielders and a forward in the summer at the latest. I don’t mind if we get two players one of whom can cover both positions if we absolutely have to.

We do need more youth, in midfield particularly and especially when we play high intensity football. You can see that a number of our midfield are starting to struggle with that. I think that is why Thiago makes a big difference because we keep the ball much better against the press, albeit he does miss a lot of games and is not that young himself.
Hopefully that investment will come in the summer and we will bring in 1 or 2 promising youngsters (like the lad at Fulham) this month.

[royhendo]

I think the graph's illustrative but kind of shows you a club that's kept its winning team together - ordinarily churning players for profit would keep the age profile younger but there it is.

When you look at Klopp's Champions League Final side from 2013 at Dortmund, other than Weidenfeller, it's a bunch of guys under 25 years old for the most part, but then of course the side got mostly sold off. If he'd still been there I wonder if, given the chance, he'd have kept them into old age. The Bayern side they faced had quite a few older heads in it, most notably Robben and Ribery.

[royhendo]

Tell you what though - if the strategy is as it's been hinted at before - back fill with 'elite youth', then it does fit Klopp's approach at Dortmund to a tee - he brought a load of kids through, won two leagues, and then had to watch it all fall apart after that CL final. When he sits in a press conference and says he's excited about Owen Beck, I'm guessing he means it.

[Asam]

Tell you what though - if the strategy is as it's been hinted at before - back fill with 'elite youth', then it does fit Klopp's approach at Dortmund to a tee - he brought a load of kids through, won two leagues, and then had to watch it all fall apart after that CL final. When he sits in a press conference and says he's excited about Owen Beck, I'm guessing he means it.

It’s a fair point, but the first team in a few key positions is where we need the most investment and it’s where we’ve been too passive in the market

[killer-heels]

Tell you what though - if the strategy is as it's been hinted at before - back fill with 'elite youth', then it does fit Klopp's approach at Dortmund to a tee - he brought a load of kids through, won two leagues, and then had to watch it all fall apart after that CL final. When he sits in a press conference and says he's excited about Owen Beck, I'm guessing he means it.

Very difficult to identify elite youth players isn't it? Also the question would be whether we have actually seen the fruits of that and that its a new venture for us? However in the case of buying proven players at the age of 23-25, we have a wealth of experience and success.

[Chris~]

If it was the main strategy we'd have been more aggressive in youth recruitment and allocated even more resources there

[Scouser-Tommy]

It will be him OR Declan Rice that leaves if stupid money is on offer. Not both.

I expect you will be right by the summer but it will be interesting to see if West Ham manage to secure a Champions League spot and potentially keep both of them if they're flourishing there under Moyes.

[RyanBabel19]

Tell you what though - if the strategy is as it's been hinted at before - back fill with 'elite youth', then it does fit Klopp's approach at Dortmund to a tee - he brought a load of kids through, won two leagues, and then had to watch it all fall apart after that CL final. When he sits in a press conference and says he's excited about Owen Beck, I'm guessing he means it.

Doesn't seem like our strategy to be honest, we dont use any more than other sides excluding City and even the likes of Beck, he doesn't look like making up any meaningful minutes anytime soon when you look at those ahead of him.

They'll always have a place with us but I wouldn't say we've earmarked it as a specific strategy to a large extent.

[lionel_messias]

Put money to one side for a second (although he's out of contract in the summer so..), what do people think we could do with Denis Zakaria?

Does he fill in for a couple of roles in midfield? The fact we've been mentioned normally means we're not interested but you never know. How many quality midfielders of the right age can you grab for around 8 million Euro these days??

[rocco]

Think we have an option of a 12 month extension so if he doesn't isn't sold/ doesn't sign a new deal this month it will be extended so we can try to sell in the summer

Doesn’t he have to play a certain amount of games for us to have the option to extend

[Asam]

Put money to one side for a second (although he's out of contract in the summer so..), what do people think we could do with Denis Zakaria?

Does he fill in for a couple of roles in midfield? The fact we've been mentioned normally means we're not interested but you never know. How many quality midfielders of the right age can you grab for around 8 million Euro these days??

The consensus seems to be We wouldn’t be signing him if he wasn’t available on a free

[royhendo]

The RAWKites are worrying and no mistake. There are 11 players in a football club's first team.

Let's say the cut off age is 23 (so we explicitly exclude Trent, and also Kelleher).

In terms of elite youth, the pinnacle right now is what? Foden? Who else? Pedri? Let me know.

We only have Jones (20 - puts in numbers to rival Thiago in terms of ball retention and final third penetration), Elliot (18 - was putting in pressing numbers up there with Keita early this season, is demonstrably a better player already than many already in our squad - take Minamino, for example), Gordon (17 - tell me he doesn't look a phenomenal talent), and let's include Konate too (22, everyone's happy if he starts against any side in world football).

That's a conservative list that excludes the less obvious ones with question marks like Williams and Williams, like Beck, like Morton, like Bradley... but in terms of that starting 11, we're already on the brink of being able to blood 4 players with an average age of na-na-nineteen.

[Dim Glas]

Put money to one side for a second (although he's out of contract in the summer so..), what do people think we could do with Denis Zakaria?

Does he fill in for a couple of roles in midfield? The fact we've been mentioned normally means we're not interested but you never know. How many quality midfielders of the right age can you grab for around 8 million Euro these days??

Don’t think there is even a vaguely legitimate link is there?

Zakaria’s stock has fallen in the last 18 months after a bad knee injury.  For us, IF there would be interest, he’d be a cheap squad option who can play in midfield and central defence.

[Sheer Magnetism]

The RAWKites are worrying and no mistake. There are 11 players in a football club's first team.

Let's say the cut off age is 23 (so we explicitly exclude Trent, and also Kelleher).

In terms of elite youth, the pinnacle right now is what? Foden? Who else? Pedri? Let me know.

We only have Jones (20 - puts in numbers to rival Thiago in terms of ball retention and final third penetration), Elliot (18 - was putting in pressing numbers up there with Keita early this season, is demonstrably a better player already than many already in our squad - take Minamino, for example), Gordon (17 - tell me he doesn't look a phenomenal talent), and let's include Konate too (22, everyone's happy if he starts against any side in world football).

That's a conservative list that excludes the less obvious ones with question marks like Williams and Williams, like Beck, like Morton, like Bradley... but in terms of that starting 11, we're already on the brink of being able to blood 4 players with an average age of na-na-nineteen.

I don't think anyone's suggesting we don't have some great prospects - for all the talk of Thiago being Gini's replacement, Jones' stats were almost identical last season - but they are still prospects. There are teams in our division who have a better selection of youngsters, same in the Champions League. We can bet on those players emerging to become automatic first teamers but it is a gamble.

[DonkeyWan]

The RAWKites are worrying and no mistake. There are 11 players in a football club's first team.

Let's say the cut off age is 23 (so we explicitly exclude Trent, and also Kelleher).

In terms of elite youth, the pinnacle right now is what? Foden? Who else? Pedri? Let me know.

We only have Jones (20 - puts in numbers to rival Thiago in terms of ball retention and final third penetration), Elliot (18 - was putting in pressing numbers up there with Keita early this season, is demonstrably a better player already than many already in our squad - take Minamino, for example), Gordon (17 - tell me he doesn't look a phenomenal talent), and let's include Konate too (22, everyone's happy if he starts against any side in world football).

That's a conservative list that excludes the less obvious ones with question marks like Williams and Williams, like Beck, like Morton, like Bradley... but in terms of that starting 11, we're already on the brink of being able to blood 4 players with an average age of na-na-nineteen.

The worry isn't about youth stepping up. The worry is that, if you picked a first choice team tomorrow it would probably look like this

Alisson (29)
TAA (23) Matip (30) VVD (30) Robertson (27)
Henderson (31) Fabinho (28) Thiago (30)
Salah (29) Firmino (31) Mane (29)

Now, you could argue the toss on Firmino/Jota, but if there was a CL final to be played tomorrow and everyone was fit, that team wouldn't surprise anyone. 7 of that team will be 30+ next year. What is missing from the squad is 4-5 24-27 year olds pushing to break into the first team. Of the teenagers you mention, how many could you expect to play 30+ times next season? And while other clubs may not have as many players coming through, that is because they have shown a propensity to spend on the mid-core of the squad. Basically, while it may seem exciting to have 4 teenagers coming through, it comes at the cost of that middle cohort, which is why Liverpool can appear a bit stretched at times.

If you look at the average age of Spurs (a team that, if they win their games in hand will be 3 points behind Liverpool) the average of their squad is nearly 2 years less. In other words, they have 2 seasons/4 transfer windows of an advantage on Liverpool in terms of rebuilding/refreshing their team. Mancherter City, United and Chelsea have a 1 year advantage. That's not a happy place to be for a team that emphasises player turnover, sell to buy, budget balancing and views contracts for 30+ year old players somewhat dimly.

It actually reminds me of Everton under Moyes, where the first team got old together and the players behind got left behind. It's also what happened at Dortmund under Klopp, where his fab first team got old together and he was unable to replace players as the funds weren't there.

Liverpool's squad needs investment in the middle and upfront where age (and age associated injuries) is creating an unsatisfactoy concentration in terms of the age profile of the squad. Waiting for the youth to step up will be too late and too demanding on the youth.

[Fruity]

The RAWKites are worrying and no mistake. There are 11 players in a football club's first team.

Let's say the cut off age is 23 (so we explicitly exclude Trent, and also Kelleher).

In terms of elite youth, the pinnacle right now is what? Foden? Who else? Pedri? Let me know.

We only have Jones (20 - puts in numbers to rival Thiago in terms of ball retention and final third penetration), Elliot (18 - was putting in pressing numbers up there with Keita early this season, is demonstrably a better player already than many already in our squad - take Minamino, for example), Gordon (17 - tell me he doesn't look a phenomenal talent), and let's include Konate too (22, everyone's happy if he starts against any side in world football).

That's a conservative list that excludes the less obvious ones with question marks like Williams and Williams, like Beck, like Morton, like Bradley... but in terms of that starting 11, we're already on the brink of being able to blood 4 players with an average age of na-na-nineteen.

I agree we have some potential talent but at what age does a player become really great or world class. What age was gerrard or Suarez or Salah. Or say Ronaldo. I am saying around 24 - 25 and they continue for about 4 -5 seasons.

So a lot of those players are off that in tems of age - Gordon is 7 years off. Currently most of our key first team is about 5 years older than 24-25.  For about 4 or 5 years we would hear about these phenomenal Arsenal Kids under Wenger. And in league cup games they looked great but how many of them went on to be elite or even first teamers. Out of the long list of kids we have I would be surprised if two make it to our first team as regulars. We have trent who has. Jones is not currently first on the team sheet. Elliot maybe?

Thing is to be the best team in the world you don't necessarily need all your players to be the best in he world but you need at least some of them to be (In 2019 you could say we had Top 3 Keeper in world. Two Top five forwards and best central defender and Fabinho as DM. You might even add Robertson as well) Currently we have Salah, Allisson, Trent and Fabinho and VVD who would all rank somewhere in the top 10) The only one some distance from age 30 is Trent.  It feels like we are putting a lot of trust in our youth to fill gaps - but the chances of 4 or 5 of them becoming some of the best in the world in their respective positions is not impossible but is very unlikely. We need more Jota's or Konate's to fill the age gap between youth and 30 and really should be have been doing that since we won the CL and then PL.

[stockdam]

The average age doesn't concern me too much. Yes ours is on the high side but it's close enough to Chelsea and City and they are the two teams we need to compete with. Arsenal have a young squad and they are the ones to watch as they will get better as the players mature.

We have as good a bunch of young players coming up as any other team and we'll supplement these with purchases. However, very good young players are expensive to buy and bringing through academy players is not easy as a lot don't make it. That means that with our limited budget, we will tend to buy players who are older than average.

[royhendo]

Thing is to be the best team in the world you don't necessarily need all your players to be the best in he world but you need at least some of them to be

That's a provocative statement I reckon. It's one way to do it, certainly... but it's not the only way. Which player in Man City's team is the best in the world in his position?

[mickeydocs]

Tell you what though - if the strategy is as it's been hinted at before - back fill with 'elite youth', then it does fit Klopp's approach at Dortmund to a tee - he brought a load of kids through, won two leagues, and then had to watch it all fall apart after that CL final. When he sits in a press conference and says he's excited about Owen Beck, I'm guessing he means it.

Let's just hope Klopp sticks around to bring the youth players through to create Klopp's Liverpool 2.0.

[royhendo]

Liverpool's squad needs investment in the middle and upfront where age (and age associated injuries) is creating an unsatisfactoy concentration in terms of the age profile of the squad. Waiting for the youth to step up will be too late and too demanding on the youth.

But we're buying players like Jota and Konate and Keita and Tsimikas with that directly in mind, aren't we? Of those, Keita's the only one that hasn't worked out, so that's 3 replacements pretty much as like for like as it's possible for us to have bought. And then the goalie, who's borderline irreplaceable, is backed up by a ridiculously good stand in, who has a Brazilian wonderkid in behind him.

[clinical]

But we're buying players like Jota and Konate and Keita and Tsimikas with that directly in mind, aren't we? Of those, Keita's the only one that hasn't worked out, so that's 3 replacements pretty much as like for like as it's possible for us to have bought. And then the goalie, who's borderline irreplaceable, is backed up by a ridiculously good stand in, who has a Brazilian wonderkid in behind him.

If we got a great young (ish) midfielder and attacker and kept Salah no one would be worrying, I don't think. As it stands I don't know where we get the money to bring anyone in and keep Salah. It could be one or the other.

[CraigDS]

Liverpool's squad needs investment in the middle and upfront where age (and age associated injuries) is creating an unsatisfactoy concentration in terms of the age profile of the squad. Waiting for the youth to step up will be too late and too demanding on the youth.

The midfield needs work, I agree, and I think we'll likely see that this summer.

The keeper could be the best in the world for 5+ years yet.

Our fullbacks are decent ages, with Tsimikas a younger back up to Robbo. At CB Gomez and Konate are both young, and VVD strikes me as a player who will be in his prime for a while yet.

Midfield, yeah I agree we need some new blood.

The forward line is a funny one. I expect Salah to be signed up, and Jota is a good age. I think we may look at another younger option and move on one of Bobby or Mane.

That's not a shit load of transfer work we need to do, and it certainly doesn't all need doing over one summer window.

[Tobelius]

Seems to me we're going after best young players we can get before they reach a status and fees like Bellingham etc.,for low(ish) fees and then more experienced but still young enough (22-25) players who could improve with us and fit the way we play,Thiago the recent exception.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

The midfield needs work, I agree, and I think we'll likely see that this summer.

The keeper could be the best in the world for 5+ years yet.

Our fullbacks are decent ages, with Tsimikas a younger back up to Robbo. At CB Gomez and Konate are both young, and VVD strikes me as a player who will be in his prime for a while yet.

Midfield, yeah I agree we need some new blood.

The forward line is a funny one. I expect Salah to be signed up, and Jota is a good age. I think we may look at another younger option and move on one of Bobby or Mane.

That's not a shit load of transfer work we need to do, and it certainly doesn't all need doing over one summer window.

While I agree it isn't loads, I think there has to be some relatively major stuff in one window - two midfielders and a forward. Mainly because some of that work is things which have been needed for a couple of windows now and not been addressed fully for obvious reasons.

I think we need two starting midfielders to push out Henderson and Thiago (or at the very least be breathing down their necks), and a forward option like Bowen for example, to be like Jota (back up with a good chance of taking a starting place).

[Asam]

Seems to me we're going after best young players we can get before they reach a status and fees like Bellingham etc.,for low(ish) fees and then more experienced but still young enough (22-25) players who could improve with us and fit the way we play,Thiago the recent exception.

This of course makes sense but we aren’t seemingly willing to spend big on a teenager either, so we are making some amazing value buys like Elliott / Bobby Clark / Gordon we are missing out on Bellingham type signings because we’re not prepared to take the risk until they are proven but then the jump in price also rules is out of the running in all likelihood

[DonkeyWan]

But we're buying players like Jota and Konate and Keita and Tsimikas with that directly in mind, aren't we? Of those, Keita's the only one that hasn't worked out, so that's 3 replacements pretty much as like for like as it's possible for us to have bought. And then the goalie, who's borderline irreplaceable, is backed up by a ridiculously good stand in, who has a Brazilian wonderkid in behind him.

Personally don't think Tsimikas is anywhere near Robertson's level, but that is by the way. Only Jota and Konate are regulars in the side (and that is because Matip is so prone to injury, unsurprising in a player his age). As I said, you need 4-5 more players pushing the first teamers, not 1-2. If tomorrow one of Henderson, Fabinho or Thiago are injured for months, who comes in? Milner (36), Cahmberlain (28) or Keita(26)? Only two of those are in a good age range and none are a good like-for-like replacement. Up front Jota, covers the front three, but after that it is a big drop off; we are panicking because Salah and Mane are gone for a few weeks, what if that was for months? Origi? Minamino? At the back there are riches at CB, but no cover for right back and if Alisson was out for a few months, would it be ok to use Kelleher every week?

All the young players mentioned can fill a gap short term, but none are medium to long term solutions and none are pushing first teamers out of the side; only Jota and Konate are doing that.

The first team is good, but its old, and there is very little competition for places. I don't think that's a positive profile for the squad.

[cdav]

If we got a great young (ish) midfielder and attacker and kept Salah no one would be worrying, I don't think. As it stands I don't know where we get the money to bring anyone in and keep Salah. It could be one or the other.

I guess it depends on how much you want to spend and who moves on? We did Konate after a season of no fans, I think we could do £60-80m net this summer if we spread the fees- few sales and we could do 3 €50m ish players:

Tchouameni/ Bissouma for midfield
Nkunku for a hybrid midfielder/ forward
Adeyemi/ David/ Bowen for wide forward

If we sold a Mane/ Firmino we could do more and the refresh looks a lot better age wise

[clinical]

Very difficult to identify elite youth players isn't it? Also the question would be whether we have actually seen the fruits of that and that its a new venture for us? However in the case of buying proven players at the age of 23-25, we have a wealth of experience and success.

Our strategy of buying 22-25 year olds and bringing players through seems like the best to me. Trouble is those £30m players we used to get are now £50m and we haven't increased spending to match.

[clinical]

I guess it depends on how much you want to spend and who moves on? We did Konate after a season of no fans, I think we could do £60-80m net this summer if we spread the fees- few sales and we could do 3 €50m ish players:

Tchouameni/ Bissouma for midfield
Nkunku for a hybrid midfielder/ forward
Adeyemi/ David/ Bowen for wide forward

If we sold a Mane/ Firmino we could do more and the refresh looks a lot better age wise

When have we ever spent £60-£80m net?

Klopp has net spend of £150m in total in 6 years.