Author Topic: Ranking of manager from Shankly to Klopp (Read 8696 times)

Alan_X · « **Reply #40 on:** May 28, 2021, 01:29:41 pm »

Quote from: alvaro on May 28, 2021, 04:57:52 am

I think we have the following consensus.

Tier 1: Shankly, Paisley and Klopp.
Tier 2: Rafa and Kenny.
Tier 3: Fagan and Houllier.
Tier 4: Rodgers
Tier 5: Evans and Souness.
Tier 6: Hodgson.

I like the tiers but still think they can be ranked within those tiers. My rankings with justification:

Tier 1 Managers: Shankly and Paisley (Jurgen needs another League or Cup to move into Tier 1)

Shankly is obviously Tier 1 because he started everything we have today from culture to the iconic kit we wear.
Bob is Tier 1 because he is one of the greatest managers ever, not just of Liverpool but in England and across Europe. He won 20 trophies in 9 seasons. Leagues, a UEFA Cup and our first three European Cups. And he was there at BIll's side from the start of the Shankly revolution. Would Shankly have won as much without Bob? Who knows, I know that Bob won more as a manager on his own.

So for me its Bob Paisley top of the pile and then Shanks.

Tier 2 Managers: Klopp, Benitez and Kenny.

Dalglish: We'll never know what Kenny's team might have done in Europe for obvious reasons but I know what they did in England. They took football to another level with Barnes, Beardsly and the rest. We'll also never know what would have happened without Hillsborough. His first time as manager was bookended by the tragedies of Heysel and HIllsborough which took away the chance to shine in Europe and took away his love of the game for a while. A special mention for his second spell when he came back to help heal the scars of Hicks and Gillett. The game at Fulham whne Maxi scored his hat-trick and the away end sang the Maxi song non-stop always brings a smile to my face. If he'd won a European trophy he'd be in tier 1 but there are a few managers where 'could have if...' applies (see Rafa).

Benitez: Rafa - what a man. For a club who have so many iconic football moments he gave us all the iconic moment of iconic moments. I watched the Road to Istanbul on Tuesday followed by the whole final. And then a year later, an iconic FA Cup Final (3-3) with another of those Gerrard moments. Rafa made Liverpool an elite force in Europe again. But tight purse strings under Moores and the shit-show of Hicks and Gillett meant he never won the League.

Klopp: He's on the cusp between Tier 1 and Tier 2 for me. He has some of the drive and personality of Shanks and the managerial nous of Bob. But I think he needs to win another League or European Cup to move up a level.

So Tier 2 is Klopp, Kenny then Rafa (three leagues counts for more than Istanbul for me).

Tier 3 Managers: Fagan & Houllier. Agree on both both of these. A pair of Treble winners. Joe was a great coach and was at Bob's side during his success. He was a reluctant manager and would probably have resigned regardless of Heysel. But his trophies speak for themselves. I'd place him higher than Ged because winning a League and European Cup double (plus a League Cup) is an amazing achievement, regardless of the quality he inherited.

Tier 3: Joe Fagan then Gerard Houllier.

Tier 4 Manager: Brendan Rodgers. I have to agree with this as well. Roy Evans and Souness both won trophies and Brendan won fuck all. But I have never laughed so much with sheer enjoyment at the match as in 13-14. After Hicks and Gillett, the dourness of Hodgson and the brief re-surgence under Kenny's return Rodgers LIverpool felt like a team with the potential to reach for the heights again even if we fell short that season.

Tier 5 Managers: Roy Evans and Souness. Both won domestic trophies but neither hit the heights. Souness won the bigger pot but Roy gave us some great football to watch including the classic 4-3 against Newcastle.

I wouldn't split these two - Evans and Souness on the same level for me.

Tier 6 Manager: Roy Hodgson. Why?... just why?... He was just the wrong man for the job. Never should have been anywhere near Anfield unless he was in the away dugout getting spanked by the boys in red. Some of the worst, dour, shit-on-a-stick football I've ever seen Liverpool play live or on TV. The muppet who had Brendan below Hodgson clearly never had to sit through ninety minutes of his clueless rigid football.

Other opinions are available...

Alan_X · « **Reply #41 on:** May 28, 2021, 01:33:20 pm »

Quote from: John C on May 28, 2021, 12:06:09 pm

Personally, I think putting Fagan below Rafa is an absolute insult to Joe.

I did as well. Fagan will always suffer for coming after Bob in the way that some will always have Bill above Bob because he came first and shaped so much.

John C · « **Reply #42 on:** May 28, 2021, 02:12:29 pm »

Quote from: smutchin on May 28, 2021, 12:17:02 pm

Would Fagan have won the European Cup with a team containing Djimi Traore and Igor Biscan? And what would Rodgers have achieved with the team Fagan inherited? These are rhetorical questions, of course, and there's no way we could ever know the answers. It's all just opinions.

ooooh, thats a good game. Can I play?

Would Rafa have won the CL without Stevie?

smutchin · « **Reply #43 on:** May 28, 2021, 02:30:00 pm »

Quote from: John C on May 28, 2021, 02:12:29 pm

ooooh, thats a good game. Can I play?

Of course. It's all a game, isn't it? There's no objective facts here, just different opinions.

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #44 on:** May 28, 2021, 02:32:09 pm »

Dalglish
Benitez
Houllier
Klopp
Shankly
Paisley
Rodgers
Fagan
Evans
Souness
Hodgson

El Lobo · « **Reply #45 on:** May 28, 2021, 02:36:03 pm »

Dim Glas · « **Reply #46 on:** May 28, 2021, 04:09:43 pm »

Quote from: fucking appalled on May 28, 2021, 02:36:03 pm

He really does love getting attention!

surfer. Fuck you generator. · « **Reply #47 on:** May 28, 2021, 04:22:26 pm »

Nah.

Son of Spion · « **Reply #48 on:** May 28, 2021, 06:56:14 pm »

Quote from: John C on May 28, 2021, 12:06:09 pm

Personally, I think putting Fagan below Rafa is an absolute insult to Joe.

Yep. I just changed my line-up as I had them the 'wrong' way around too.

Son of Spion · « **Reply #49 on:** May 28, 2021, 07:02:19 pm »

Quote from: Camping in a pub in Allerton on May 28, 2021, 02:32:09 pm

Dalglish
Benitez
Houllier
Klopp
Shankly
Paisley
Rodgers
Fagan
Evans
Souness
Hodgson

Calling Andrew from Allerton to the headmaster's office at once.

Ravishing Rick Dude · « **Reply #50 on:** May 28, 2021, 07:36:49 pm »

Shankly - installed our unique DNA
Paisley - most successful manager and a football genius. Also the humblest of all
Kenny - player-manager-fan-king! Did some massive things outside of the pitch as well
Rafa - won the most legendary Champion League with inferior team against one of the best teams in history of football. He also spoke out telling that the club is in danger when we were about to end like Leeds and he always have a warm spot for us in his heart. Also we should keep in mind that Ferguson, Mourinho and Wenger had almost unlimited funds and he was constantly outmuscled in transfer market
Klopp - he made us believe! He made us great again! He made us a proper football club again!
Fagan - short but successful
Houlier - a fine gentleman and a very good manager
Evans - ok i guess
Rodgers - lacked that extra push that makes you a great manager
Souness - don't have anything positive to say
Hodgson - yeah, nah

Dim Glas · « **Reply #51 on:** May 28, 2021, 07:57:29 pm »

again, we all love Rafa, but anyone who puts him above Kloppo is well, ummm, wrong?!

Yes, I know I know, it's opinions, but that doesn’t work at all when it comes to ranking managers on what they have achieved here.

A manager who has won the League after such a long wait as well as the Champions League can only be behind the legendary architect of the modern era of this club - Bill Shankly and Sir Bob Paisley.

Now if it’s a ranking of particular favourites, or about off pitch work, then yes, fill your boots.

Billy Elliot · « **Reply #52 on:** May 28, 2021, 09:38:13 pm »

Another what if?

People sometimes forget Paisley came back as general manager when Kenny was made player manager. What if he hadn't? How instrumental was he at showing Kenny the ropes?

As for the Rafa/Fagan dispute:

Would Rafa have tried to replace Souness with Kevin MacDonald? Fuck knows. He might have brought Lawrenson and Whelan into centre mid, them brought Walsh back into midfield, played Kenny as a "number 10", played Rush up front by himself, changed it all the following week, and it might have worked.

John C · « **Reply #53 on:** May 28, 2021, 11:49:45 pm »

Andy is utterly bombed-out, but he's fine with it, he knows it

John C · « **Reply #54 on:** May 28, 2021, 11:53:28 pm »

And with all the what if's, this thread may have run it's course now.

Should we terminate fondly?

Simplexity · « **Reply #55 on:** May 29, 2021, 12:30:33 am »

Surprising amount of calls for Rafa above Klopp. I honestly do not even think it merits a comparison, I am not even sure Rafa is ahead of Houllier in all honesty.

My list would probably be.

Bob and Bill
Kenny and Klopp
Rafa and Houllier
Fagan
Rodgers and Souness
Hodgson

Samie · « **Reply #56 on:** May 29, 2021, 12:39:58 am »

Now that I thought about it I think tiers are better than overall rankings.

drmick · « **Reply #57 on:** May 29, 2021, 12:46:36 am »

Phil Thompson- I'm surprised he hasn't even got a mention.

Jack_Bauer · « **Reply #58 on:** May 29, 2021, 01:48:59 am »

Quote from: drmick on May 29, 2021, 12:46:36 am

Phil Thompson- I'm surprised he hasn't even got a mention.

Would he count though as he only filled in while Houllier was out with his health issues. Also, does that mean you have to count Ronnie Moran when he filled in after Kenny stepped down before Souness was hired

Jack_Bauer · « **Reply #59 on:** May 29, 2021, 01:51:43 am »

Shanks/Bob
Klopp
Kenny
Rafa
Houllier
Fagan
Evans
Rodgers
Souness
Hodgson

Red_Rich · « **Reply #60 on:** May 29, 2021, 03:47:26 am »

It depends on which criteria we're using.

If it's purely for onfield achievement then it's Bob, hands down.
If it's for building something from nothing then it's obviously Shanks.
But if it's simply for being the best at MANAGING Liverpool FC then it's Kenny all day long.

So I won't place them in a proper chart order except to say it's those three joint top, Jurgen just below, Fagan and Rafa next tier and do what you want with the rest.

hide5seek · « **Reply #61 on:** May 29, 2021, 06:30:32 am »

Can't believe people are putting Klopp above Dalglish, mental.

kaesarsosei · « **Reply #62 on:** May 29, 2021, 06:55:54 am »

Quote from: hide5seek on May 29, 2021, 06:30:32 am

Can't believe people are putting Klopp above Dalglish, mental.

There's a difference between Dalglish the person and Dalglish the manager. As a person, what he did for the club is unrivalled in unrivalled circumstances. As a manager, he took a European Cup winning squad and continued winning trophies with it. At the end of the 80's he would have faced a very stern test as a manager to rebuild an aging squad but never had the chance to do it due to Hillsborough. If you want to include that in Dalglish's legacy, well there's a reason why we have a stand named after him after all. But in pure football-managerial terms, Dalglish doesn't come close to Shankly or Paisley and I would argue he and Klopp are neck-and-neck currently.

Ravishing Rick Dude · « **Reply #63 on:** May 29, 2021, 06:56:48 am »

Quote from: Dim Glas on May 28, 2021, 07:57:29 pm

again, we all love Rafa, but anyone who puts him above Kloppo is well, ummm, wrong?!

Yes, I know I know, it's opinions, but that doesn’t work at all when it comes to ranking managers on what they have achieved here.

A manager who has won the League after such a long wait as well as the Champions League can only be behind the legendary architect of the modern era of this club - Bill Shankly and Sir Bob Paisley.

Now if it’s a ranking of particular favourites, or about off pitch work, then yes, fill your boots.

There's nothing wrong with that. Rafa won the CL trophy without your 70mil players on the pitch but with the likes of Djimi Traore, Carragher and Baros, against Pirlo, Gattuso, Kaka, Seedorf etc. But that period isn't just football related. Some of us are very emotionally connected with that period for many reasons. No need to go into details now.

Passmaster Molby · « **Reply #64 on:** May 29, 2021, 07:14:30 am »

I think there is a distinction here between who was the best manager and who is your own favourite manager. Its a personal choice for many people to put Kenny ahead of Rafa or Klopp ahead of Kenny, but so many factors need to be taken into account if you are actually trying to find who was the best.

Starting Point - where were we in the table?
Players Inherited - How good was the squad?
Opportunity to Strengthen - What resources were they given to spend and improve the squad?
Who were your opposition at the time - Which other clubs were top level at the time?
Trophies won - Show us your medals!

Arguably Bill had the hardest start given we were a mess, but he then turned everything around and laid the great foundations for everyone else, so for me he gets top spot. Paisley was clearly the most successful, but probably had the best base to work from (Fagan you could argue too had a great base as well as Kenny)

Souness had a strong base to work from but messed it up, meaning Evans had a tough start but then got the resources to improve things. Houllier had a decent base to work from and improved things before winning trophies, however he then went backwards and left Rafa with a weakened start point (Bar CL qualification) Rafa for me was brilliant, but didnt get the finances needed to take the next step. Klopp got a decent base to work from and improved things greatly, and whilst he did spend a lot he also sold a lot to pay for it so he should rank highly for getting success without breaking the bank too.

Taking all of those tests into consideration, my list would be:

Shankly and Paisley
Klopp, Dalglish and Rafa
Houllier
Evans and Rodgers
Souness
Hodgson

smutchin · « **Reply #65 on:** May 29, 2021, 08:02:13 am »

Quote from: Jack_Bauer on May 29, 2021, 01:48:59 am

Would he count though as he only filled in while Houllier was out with his health issues. Also, does that mean you have to count Ronnie Moran when he filled in after Kenny stepped down before Souness was hired

Probably more deserving of a mention than the owl, to be fair.

CHOPPER · « **Reply #66 on:** May 29, 2021, 08:23:09 am »

Comical.

killer-heels · « **Reply #67 on:** May 29, 2021, 08:32:07 am »

Quote from: Dim Glas on May 28, 2021, 07:57:29 pm

again, we all love Rafa, but anyone who puts him above Kloppo is well, ummm, wrong?!

Yes, I know I know, it's opinions, but that doesn’t work at all when it comes to ranking managers on what they have achieved here.

A manager who has won the League after such a long wait as well as the Champions League can only be behind the legendary architect of the modern era of this club - Bill Shankly and Sir Bob Paisley.

Now if it’s a ranking of particular favourites, or about off pitch work, then yes, fill your boots.

Rafa ahead of Dalglish is just as mad.

Ravishing Rick Dude · « **Reply #68 on:** May 29, 2021, 09:14:45 am »

Quote from: Passmaster Molby on May 29, 2021, 07:14:30 am

I think there is a distinction here between who was the best manager and who is your own favourite manager. Its a personal choice for many people to put Kenny ahead of Rafa or Klopp ahead of Kenny, but so many factors need to be taken into account if you are actually trying to find who was the best.

Starting Point - where were we in the table?
Players Inherited - How good was the squad?
Opportunity to Strengthen - What resources were they given to spend and improve the squad?
Who were your opposition at the time - Which other clubs were top level at the time?
Trophies won - Show us your medals!

Arguably Bill had the hardest start given we were a mess, but he then turned everything around and laid the great foundations for everyone else, so for me he gets top spot. Paisley was clearly the most successful, but probably had the best base to work from (Fagan you could argue too had a great base as well as Kenny)

Souness had a strong base to work from but messed it up, meaning Evans had a tough start but then got the resources to improve things. Houllier had a decent base to work from and improved things before winning trophies, however he then went backwards and left Rafa with a weakened start point (Bar CL qualification) Rafa for me was brilliant, but didnt get the finances needed to take the next step. Klopp got a decent base to work from and improved things greatly, and whilst he did spend a lot he also sold a lot to pay for it so he should rank highly for getting success without breaking the bank too.

Taking all of those tests into consideration, my list would be:

Shankly and Paisley
Klopp, Dalglish and Rafa
Houllier
Evans and Rodgers
Souness
Hodgson

Yeah, well put. Couldn't disagree with any

WEST HAM PAUL · « **Reply #69 on:** May 29, 2021, 09:28:18 am »

George Kay ( Not been mentioned)

If talking Post WWII

Led Liverpool to league championship in 1947
FA Cup Runners Up 1950

Signed Bob Paisley & Billy Liddell

Surely above Hodgson at least

Clayton Bigsby · « **Reply #70 on:** May 29, 2021, 09:47:17 am »

Paisley- His record is almost unreal. How does someone win so much in such a short space of time

Shankly- The architect. It all begins with him, just had Paisley slightly ahead due to the incredible trophy haul

Dalglish- Won the league after Hillsborough. that level of mental strength after such a tragedy cannot be understated. Would have backed the team to have gone toe to toe with the great Milan side in the European Cup but it wasn't to be.

Klopp -Put us back on our perch after 30years. Can't forget big ears either. Turned doubters into believers

Fagan - A treble in your only season is not to be sniffed at.

Rafa - Turned us into number 1 team in the CL. Responsible for so many great nights, not just Wembley and Istanbul.Fought for the future of the club

Houllier - 2000/2001 still my favourite Liverpool season of all time. What a ride. Got us back on the right track.

Rodgers. He was soooo close in 13-14. Had us looking amazing and brought in (whether directly or by committee) some great players who helped push the club forward. Failed to replace Suarez adequately but as
Barcelona found out, he isn't that easy to replace

Evans - The manager during secondary school. Had us playing great football. Won us a cup. Spice Boys counts against him.

Souness - My first proper memory of winning was the 1992 FA Cup. Will always be fond of that but he really did fumble the bag

Hodgson -Wasn't as against his appointment as most as I thought UEFA final with Fulham is worthy of a big club. But fcking hell, it couldn't have gone worse

LovelyCushionedHeader · « **Reply #71 on:** May 29, 2021, 09:57:02 am »

Quote from: drmick on May 29, 2021, 12:46:36 am

Phil Thompson- I'm surprised he hasn't even got a mention.

Colin Pascoe, then? 100% record?

Alf · « **Reply #72 on:** May 29, 2021, 02:55:01 pm »

Shankly has to be number 1 for me. Without him, I don’t know if any of the others win anything. Paisley 2nd & Klopp 3rd with Roy Hodgson at the bottom.

rob1966 · « **Reply #73 on:** May 29, 2021, 03:16:15 pm »

Quote from: WEST HAM PAUL on May 29, 2021, 09:28:18 am

George Kay ( Not been mentioned)

If talking Post WWII

Led Liverpool to league championship in 1947
FA Cup Runners Up 1950

Signed Bob Paisley & Billy Liddell

Surely above Hodgson at least

Miles above

hide5seek · « **Reply #74 on:** May 29, 2021, 03:28:53 pm »

Quote from: Clayton Bigsby on May 29, 2021, 09:47:17 am

Paisley- His record is almost unreal. How does someone win so much in such a short space of time

Shankly- The architect. It all begins with him, just had Paisley slightly ahead due to the incredible trophy haul

Dalglish- Won the league after Hillsborough. that level of mental strength after such a tragedy cannot be understated. Would have backed the team to have gone toe to toe with the great Milan side in the European Cup but it wasn't to be.

Klopp -Put us back on our perch after 30years. Can't forget big ears either. Turned doubters into believers

Fagan - A treble in your only season is not to be sniffed at.

Rafa - Turned us into number 1 team in the CL. Responsible for so many great nights, not just Wembley and Istanbul.Fought for the future of the club

Houllier - 2000/2001 still my favourite Liverpool season of all time. What a ride. Got us back on the right track.

Evans - The manager during secondary school. Had us playing great football. Won us a cup. Spice Boys c*nts against him.

Souness - My first proper memory of winning was the 1992 FA Cup. Will always be fond of that but he really did fumble the bag

Hodgson -Wasn't as against his appointment as most as I thought UEFA final with Fulham is worthy of a big club. But fcking hell, it couldn't have gone worse

If I was picking I'd go the same bar you missed Rodgers out?

Clayton Bigsby · « **Reply #75 on:** May 29, 2021, 03:54:25 pm »

What a fcking idiot i am missing rodgers. Re Evans The Spice Boys was supposed to say counts against him not c*nts against him

Dim Glas · « **Reply #76 on:** May 29, 2021, 04:11:52 pm »

Quote from: Ravishing Rick Rude on May 29, 2021, 06:56:48 am

There's nothing wrong with that. Rafa won the CL trophy without your 70mil players on the pitch but with the likes of Djimi Traore, Carragher and Baros, against Pirlo, Gattuso, Kaka, Seedorf etc. But that period isn't just football related. Some of us are very emotionally connected with that period for many reasons. No need to go into details now.

As I said - fair enough if it was off the pitch issues firstly. No need to even mention it, or suggest others don’t have the emotional connection.

But on footballing achievements, which I presume this is about - no chance.

This team was barely getting into the CL spots when Klopp arrived here. We didn’t win the league for 30 YEARS! Good grief

Its like one or two still got get what Kloppo has done here, it’s mad.

disgraced cake · « **Reply #77 on:** May 29, 2021, 04:33:49 pm »

Quote from: WEST HAM PAUL on May 29, 2021, 09:28:18 am

George Kay ( Not been mentioned)

If talking Post WWII

Led Liverpool to league championship in 1947
FA Cup Runners Up 1950

Signed Bob Paisley & Billy Liddell

Surely above Hodgson at least

Who isn't?

drmick · « **Reply #78 on:** May 29, 2021, 06:17:38 pm »

Phil Thompson was caretaker for a good few months, and IIRC had a pretty high win percentage.

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #79 on:** May 29, 2021, 06:30:07 pm »

Quote from: Clayton Bigsby on May 29, 2021, 09:47:17 am

Paisley- His record is almost unreal. How does someone win so much in such a short space of time

He won the lot but it was a life's work for him,same with Fagan.

Bill must have put together the most successful team (as in boot room) in the history of football and maybe all sports.