Author Topic: Lucas in Brazil Squad (Read 959531 times)

JackB · « **Reply #8240 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:14:26 pm »

Quote from: Hazell on March 28, 2011, 10:11:56 pm

That's wrong on so many levels.

Care to expand?

Hazell · « **Reply #8241 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:17:38 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:14:26 pm

Care to expand?

Anyone who was happy with someone in Purslow's position making footballing decisions is a bit clueless. That's not even factoring in the fact we had no manager and Insua's sale/loan would mean no senior LB or even ignoring the qualities and benefits Insua does (and would) bring to the team.

rossipersempre · « **Reply #8242 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:18:48 pm »

The trouble with Lucas is that for the casual observer, he doesn't have the attacking drive of say a Gerrard or an Essien, nor does he have the tracking and Rottweiler ability of say a Mascherano (almost comical how Masch was denigrated for being so one-dimensional even by some of our own) Simply put, he doesn't get noticed which is where the accusation of mediocrity comes from I think. But to me he's like a footballing primer - not obviously visible but plays a key role in ensuring the paint takes hold. Without an on-form Lucas in the middle of the park, everything starts to flake before long. I suspect Menezes feels the same.

rossipersempre · « **Reply #8243 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:19:57 pm »

Quote from: sangria on March 28, 2011, 10:11:21 pm

Have you noted his passing technique? I know he goes for long balls quite often, and gets them roughly in the right areas too, but have you seen how he makes those long passes?

Not sure I'm following you here....

Sangria · « **Reply #8244 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:20:28 pm »

Quote from: Hazell on March 28, 2011, 10:17:38 pm

Anyone who was happy with someone in Purslow's position making footballing decisions is a bit clueless. That's not even factoring in the fact we had no manager and Insua's sale/loan would mean no senior LB or even ignoring the qualities and benefits Insua does (and would) bring to the team.

He wasn't good enough, so it was right to get rid, end of. Stop trying to think about what happens after getting rid, or whether it would have been more prudent to see how things pan out before getting rid. That's just complicating things. Just get rid, simple as, and worry about the consequences later.

ozzy-red · « **Reply #8245 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:22:52 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:08:54 pm

On the left back situation I said Purslow was right, Insua wasn't up to it. I agree we shouold have been looking to get rif of him. However the decision to buy Konchesky was wrong as he wasn't an improvement.

That is all kinds of wrong. I can't understand how you can't comprehend depth. Insua would have been perfect backup for Aurelio, and would have been far better at left back this season then Agger, Wilson or Carragher. Why you want him gone is beyond me.

The 5th Benitle · « **Reply #8246 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:23:41 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:08:54 pm

On the left back situation I said Purslow was right, Insua wasn't up to it. I agree we shouold have been looking to get rif of him. However the decision to buy Konchesky was wrong as he wasn't an improvement.

You really are special, bet you were the popular one at school eh?
However you're massively wrong on Insua and AGAIN just following popular opinion like a sheep.

JackB · « **Reply #8247 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:25:42 pm »

Quote from: Hazell on March 28, 2011, 10:17:38 pm

Anyone who was happy with someone in Purslow's position making footballing decisions is a bit clueless. That's not even factoring in the fact we had no manager and Insua's sale/loan would mean no senior LB or even ignoring the qualities and benefits Insua does (and would) bring to the team.

Let me start by saying what I didn't say:
- That I was happy with Purslow's position in making footballing decisions. You're right he shouldn't have been doing that especially with no manager.

Let me say what I did say:
- Insua isn't up to it and on this occassion I agree Purslow's judgment was right.

The 5th Benitle · « **Reply #8248 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:25:57 pm »

Quote from: ozzy-red on March 28, 2011, 10:22:52 pm

That is all kinds of wrong. I can't understand how you can't comprehend depth. Insua would have been perfect backup for Aurelio, and would have been far better at left back this season then Agger, Wilson or Carragher. Why you want him gone is beyond me.

He was 21. No improvement in him, obviously. And could attack well but yeah, we needed to get rid because Roy didn't do attacking full backs. Thank God we did get rid because Kenny hates them too. Oh, wait...

rossipersempre · « **Reply #8249 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:27:15 pm »

Quote from: ozzy-red on March 28, 2011, 10:22:52 pm

Insua would have been perfect backup for Aurelio,

I always said he could find no better player to learn from - especially in such a specialised role - as our La Liga-winning Brazilian full-back. Sadly Fabio was all but on his way out the door last season, not that would have even affected any thinking re. Insua of the Fantasy Island midget by the name of Cecil.

therockbox · « **Reply #8250 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:27:21 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:25:42 pm

Let me say what I did say:
- Insua isn't up to it and on this occassion I agree Purslow's judgment was right.

So he was right to leave us with no senior left backs, forcing us to panic and re-sign Aurelio as back up - when he lacks one of the fundamental things a back up player needs?

Sangria · « **Reply #8251 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:27:48 pm »

Quote from: rossipersempre on March 28, 2011, 10:19:57 pm

Not sure I'm following you here....

Adam did quite a few long balls. All of them were floated up to the receiver, in the manner of Mascherano's diagonals, and they were just as (un)threatening. Lucas did at least one long-ish pass that I could remember, which struck me because it was done in a way that Adam should have been doing those passes. Driven with pace for the receiver to work with, just as Alonso used to do, not given air with the instep as Adam did and Mascherano used to. Driven passes are a Brazilian characteristic of course, so Lucas might have been expected to be familiar with it, but it was still nice to see a longer range pass done properly.

Hazell · « **Reply #8252 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:29:15 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:25:42 pm

Let me start by saying what I didn't say:
- That I was happy with Purslow's position in making footballing decisions. You're right he shouldn't have been doing that especially with no manager.

Let me say what I did say:
- Insua isn't up to it and on this occassion I agree Purslow's judgment was right.

His judgement wasn't right was it? We were left with Konchesky and are now stuck with playing Johnson at LB.

Again, that's ignoring Insua's qualities as a player or what the hell Purslow was doing in the first place.

JackB · « **Reply #8253 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:36:24 pm »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on March 28, 2011, 10:25:57 pm

He was 21. No improvement in him, obviously. And could attack well but yeah, we needed to get rid because Roy didn't do attacking full backs. Thank God we did get rid because Kenny hates them too. Oh, wait...

We'll see lads. I just saw absolutely nothing in Insua which suggested he'd become an acceptable option for us at left back. Let's see in 12 months time.

1021 · « **Reply #8254 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:36:59 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:25:42 pm

Let me start by saying what I didn't say:
- That I was happy with Purslow's position in making footballing decisions. You're right he shouldn't have been doing that especially with no manager.

Let me say what I did say:
- Insua isn't up to it and on this occassion I agree Purslow's judgment was right.

He was wrong leaving us without a recognized LB.
Especially when in doing so we essentially released a year early, a young, promising, Argentine, but homegrown, full back with potential value in the market.
And then having to fill our squad up with players coming to the end of their careers who are either shite or badly injury prone who offer us nothing more on the field than Insua (in Konch case considerably less) especially when these players are men we will make a loss on in the market should we sell.

And even if he managed to negotiate a sale of Soto for 15 million pounds, if he did it without a manager or the say so of one, he is acting outside of him duties and it is not on.

This is by no means Purslow's biggest fuck up,and considering how mind bendingly stupid this deal was, it says something.

The 5th Benitle · « **Reply #8255 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:37:58 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:36:24 pm

We'll see lads. I just saw absolutely nothing in Insua which suggested he'd become an acceptable option for us at left back. Let's see in 12 months time.

FFS the kid is 21 and would have been back up - and is bloody good as an ATTACKING FULL BACK. The systems Rafa employed and currently Kenny employs require ATTACKING FULL BACKS.

JackB · « **Reply #8256 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:38:41 pm »

Quote from: sangria on March 28, 2011, 10:27:48 pm

Adam did quite a few long balls. All of them were floated up to the receiver, in the manner of Mascherano's diagonals, and they were just as (un)threatening. Lucas did at least one long-ish pass that I could remember, which struck me because it was done in a way that Adam should have been doing those passes. Driven with pace for the receiver to work with, just as Alonso used to do, not given air with the instep as Adam did and Mascherano used to. Driven passes are a Brazilian characteristic of course, so Lucas might have been expected to be familiar with it, but it was still nice to see a longer range pass done properly.

You're making me chuckle a bit now Sangria

You don't think Lucas is good at shooting as well do you?

ozzy-red · « **Reply #8257 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:38:43 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:36:24 pm

We'll see lads. I just saw absolutely nothing in Insua which suggested he'd become an acceptable option for us at left back. Let's see in 12 months time.

We'll hopefully see sooner than that. When he is playing as backup for the left back we sign in the Summer.

The 5th Benitle · « **Reply #8258 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:39:29 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:38:41 pm

You don't think Lucas is good at shooting as well do you?

And there we have it, confirmation of my theory. Thanks Jack.

JackB · « **Reply #8259 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:40:33 pm »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on March 28, 2011, 10:37:58 pm

FFS the kid is 21 and would have been back up - and is bloody good as an ATTACKING FULL BACK. The systems Rafa employed and currently Kenny employs require ATTACKING FULL BACKS.

As I said. We'll see. If I'm wrong by all means chat to me about it in 12 months. I'll be delighted to be proved wrong.

JackB · « **Reply #8260 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:41:25 pm »

Quote from: ozzy-red on March 28, 2011, 10:38:43 pm

We'll hopefully see sooner than that. When he is playing as backup for the left back we sign in the Summer.

Yes - I was just saying 12 months to give him some time to get some matches.

The 5th Benitle · « **Reply #8261 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:41:31 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:40:33 pm

As I said. We'll see. If I'm wrong by all means chat to me about it in 12 months. I'll be delighted to be proved wrong.

Well thanks to Cecil he won't be playing for us, so why would you be delighted if he develops into a class player?

ozzy-red · « **Reply #8262 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:41:31 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:38:41 pm

You're making me chuckle a bit now Sangria

You don't think Lucas is good at shooting as well do you?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/1uWkAvC2zIQ?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/1uWkAvC2zIQ?fs=1</a>

JackB · « **Reply #8263 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:41:56 pm »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on March 28, 2011, 10:39:29 pm

And there we have it, confirmation of my theory. Thanks Jack.

What's your theory?

JackB · « **Reply #8264 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:42:30 pm »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on March 28, 2011, 10:41:31 pm

Well thanks to Cecil he won't be playing for us, so why would you be delighted if he develops into a class player?

If it's for us silly!

ozzy-red · « **Reply #8265 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:44:04 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:41:56 pm

What's your theory?

That your some muppet who perpetuates media bullshit.

Lawnmowerman · « **Reply #8266 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:44:31 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:38:41 pm

You're making me chuckle a bit now Sangria

You don't think Lucas is good at shooting as well do you?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vJcI26DkKbs?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/vJcI26DkKbs?fs=1</a>

Sangria · « **Reply #8267 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:44:37 pm »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on March 28, 2011, 10:37:58 pm

FFS the kid is 21 and would have been back up - and is bloody good as an ATTACKING FULL BACK. The systems Rafa employed and currently Kenny employs require ATTACKING FULL BACKS.

I see nothing in him that suggests he'd be an adequate attacking full back. Apart from being part of the 3rd leanest defence in the league, and personally racking up the 4th most assists from an LB in the league. You'd expect from more an LB from the 7th best team in the league playing in his first full season. Anyway, it was the right decision to bin him off and save the club £15-16k/wk, in order to finance the new manager's LB of choice (who's cost £6m and counting so far, and currently being slagged off by Forest fans as inferior to his alternative).

The 5th Benitle · « **Reply #8268 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:45:08 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:41:56 pm

What's your theory?

Well it was only about half an hour ago. I said that the only explanation I can have of people who flat out don't rate him is because they are judging a player who has been playing as a DM in terms of goals and assists.

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:42:30 pm

If it's for us silly!

Jesus Christ. We loaned him for a season, with a season left on his contract. He is not ours to bring back. Do you not understand how insane the decision was? Even if it was right to get rid (which it wasn't) FFS sell him don't loan him until precisely the point when he becomes a Bosman player!

Hazell · « **Reply #8269 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:45:40 pm »

Quote from: sangria on March 28, 2011, 10:44:37 pm

I see nothing in him that suggests he'd be an adequate attacking full back. Apart from being part of the 3rd leanest defence in the league, and personally racking up the 4th most assists from an LB in the league. You'd expect from more an LB from the 7th best team in the league playing in his first full season. Anyway, it was the right decision to bin him off and save the club £15-16k/wk, in order to finance the new manager's LB of choice (who's cost £6m and counting so far, and currently being slagged off by Forest fans as inferior to his alternative).

But Purslow was right despite all that God damn you!

The 5th Benitle · « **Reply #8270 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:45:42 pm »

Quote from: sangria on March 28, 2011, 10:44:37 pm

I see nothing in him that suggests he'd be an adequate attacking full back. Apart from being part of the 3rd leanest defence in the league, and personally racking up the 4th most assists from an LB in the league. You'd expect from more an LB from the 7th best team in the league playing in his first full season. Anyway, it was the right decision to bin him off and save the club £15-16k/wk, in order to finance the new manager's LB of choice (who's cost £6m and counting so far, and currently being slagged off by Forest fans as inferior to his alternative).

He was getting on a bit at 21, too.

The Jolly Boys Outing · « **Reply #8271 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:46:27 pm »

Quote from: Lawnmowerman on March 28, 2011, 10:44:31 pm

hahahahaha

JackB · « **Reply #8272 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:46:40 pm »

Quote from: ozzy-red on March 28, 2011, 10:41:31 pm

Yes this was a great strike no doubt. If I could be bothered I could make you a montage of terrible shots by Lucas.

Generally his shooting and finishing is horrible. I know it's not his primary function. I just wanted to make sure no one tried to tell me it was good otherwise I could be sure they had the blinkers on.

ozzy-red · « **Reply #8273 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:47:03 pm »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on March 28, 2011, 10:45:42 pm

He was getting on a bit at 21, too.

And Hodgson had specified that he prefers centre backs to play at wing back.
Maybe Jack is good friends with Roy?

ozzy-red · « **Reply #8274 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:48:33 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:46:40 pm

Yes this was a great strike no doubt. If I could be bothered I could make you a montage of terrible shots by Lucas.

Generally his shooting and finishing is horrible. I know it's not his primary function. I just wanted to make sure no one tried to tell me it was good otherwise I could be sure they had the blinkers on.

Maschy was a worse shot at goal than Lucas.
But people weren't out calling for him to be replaced every game.

Lawnmowerman · « **Reply #8275 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:51:03 pm »

Quote from: JackB on March 28, 2011, 10:46:40 pm

Yes this was a great strike no doubt. If I could be bothered I could make you a montage of terrible shots by Lucas.

Generally his shooting and finishing is horrible. I know it's not his primary function. I just wanted to make sure no one tried to tell me it was good otherwise I could be sure they had the blinkers on.

Look at that goal he scored against havant and waterwhatever. Placed top corner. If messi scored that everyone would be drooling

JackB · « **Reply #8276 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:52:32 pm »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on March 28, 2011, 10:45:08 pm

Well it was only about half an hour ago. I said that the only explanation I can have of people who flat out don't rate him is because they are judging a player who has been playing as a DM in terms of goals and assists. Jesus Christ. We loaned him for a season, with a season left on his contract. He is not ours to bring back. Do you not understand how insane the decision was? Even if it was right to get rid (which it wasn't) FFS sell him don't loan him until precisely the point when he becomes a Bosman player!

No I asked about the shooting because he is a very poor shooter and finisher generally and if people were going to try to tell me he was then there's no point continuing this debate.

I didn't remember that Insua is out of contract. Thanks you've made my night! Do you know if we got a loan fee for him? Do you know if we could have recalled him from the loan if we'd wanted?

smig · « **Reply #8277 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:53:31 pm »

Quote from: Lawnmowerman on March 28, 2011, 10:44:31 pm

Exception proves the rule, no?

JackB · « **Reply #8278 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:54:01 pm »

Quote from: ozzy-red on March 28, 2011, 10:47:03 pm

And Hodgson had specified that he prefers centre backs to play at wing back.
Maybe Jack is good friends with Roy?

No Roy was an unmitigated disaster for our club. I also detested his shameless self interest over that of the club.

carling · « **Reply #8279 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:55:18 pm »

Oh Lucas Leiva, tell me what's your flavour ... still remember some guy singing this completely hammered at Fratton Park a few years back. Wasn't any of you lot was it when they beat us 2-0? He wasn't even facing the pitch just staggering around singing that, it was pretty special.

Anyway even though I get in the odd argument about Lucas and come across quite negative I'm pretty happy with the situation at the moment. I don't think anyone can deny he is good enough for the team as things stand and deserves his place. The question will be whether we can say the same thing when we are battling away for top 4 next year and maybe aiming higher. Neither Lucas's biggest fans or his critics know the answer to that one for sure. It doesn't matter if he has played in some friendlies for Brazil or even if Rafa said so.

When we were shite last season Lucas was one of our better players, not really saying much to be honest but it was still the case. The same goes for the mediocrity under Hodgson, and now we've improved under Kenny Lucas has also raised his game and is more than holding his own. Next season if all goes well for Liverpool will be Lucas's most important year at the club. He's never been a first team regular for us while we've been anything like a top 4 club and when Fenway are going all out to get us there then anyone not at that level will be caught out. It will be down to him not to let that happen.

If he does prove he can cut the mustard at that level it will be a huge plus for us. He's still only 24, has a top notch attitude, will have developed a huge mental toughness after the having such difficult years and is a great lad. Oh and of course this will make him a shoe in for the Brazil side in the coming years. It's not like there is much in the way of top quality competition at the moment so he has the chance to cement his place, so if he is also helping us force our way back into contention at the top of the prem there'll be no turning back for his career. I seriously hope that is what happens.