Author Topic: Boxing thread  (Read 4162196 times)

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63240 on: May 14, 2020, 08:05:29 am »
Whitaker v Chavez

I can see what the fuss was about. This was a laughable lobbery imo.

My scorecard

             Whitaker       Chavez
Round 1     9                  10
Round 2    10                 10
Round 3    10                   9
Round 4    10                   9
Round 5    10                   9
Round 6    10                   9
Round 7    10                   9
Round 8    10                   9
Round 9    10                   9
Round 10  10                   9
Round 11  10                   9
Round 12  10                   9

               119                110


A couple of the middle rounds, like 7 could have gone either way but I cant make the case for a draw at all. First time Ive watched Whitaker fight fully. Fcking hell what a fighter

Offline duvva 💅

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63241 on: May 14, 2020, 08:11:41 am »
Chavez v Whitaker
1:Whitaker poss Even 10-9
2:Chavez 19-19
3:Whitaker 29-28
4:Even poss Whitaker 39-38
5:Whitaker behind early but came back 49-47
6:Chavez 58-57
7:Whitaker 68-66
8:Whitaker 78-75
9:Even poss Whitaker 88-85
10:Whitaker 98-94
11:Whitaker 108-103
12:Chavez 117-113

Can’t recall seeing this originally, so fresh to it other than I recall it being a controversial decision. I can see why now.
Found it a little difficult to see what landed at times due to no HD and watching on a mobile, but most clean shots came from Whitaker. Only rounds I’m confident on are 3, 7, 8 and 10 all for Whitaker. Only gave Chavez 2, 6 and 12. Scored a couple even but if I had to lean to someone in those rounds it would be Whitaker.

Came out with 117-113 Whitaker, thought on the whole he fought a smart fight and seemed in control most of the time. Cortez probably should have deducted a point from Whitaker fairly early on, not sure it would have made much difference though.
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Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63242 on: May 14, 2020, 08:30:48 am »
Cortez has always been incompetent it seems. Whitaker had two blatant low blows in succession in 1 round where he was lucky not to get a point taken off but also with Chavez he was smacking Whitaker in the hips all day long without warning

Offline Welshred

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63243 on: May 14, 2020, 09:52:49 am »
Cortez has always been incompetent it seems. Whitaker had two blatant low blows in succession in 1 round where he was lucky not to get a point taken off but also with Chavez he was smacking Whitaker in the hips all day long without warning

There were a hell of a lot of low blows in the fight from both Chavez and Whitaker, that one that Whitaker landed perfectly was retaliation for the one Chavez threw earlier in the round.

This is how I saw it btw:

Round 1:
Whitaker 9
Chavez 10
Comments Sweet P tidier but better quality of punches landed from JCC, e.g. right hand to the chin

Round 2:
Whitaker 9
Chavez 10
Comments Great round, quality punches landed by both fighters but JCC landed more of them for me, especially his body shots
 
Round 3:
Whitaker 10
Chavez 9
Comments Sweet P controlled the round, kept JCC at distance with the jab and avoided those body shots. Great right hook towards the end of the round too

Round 4:
Whitaker 9
Chavez 10
Comments Tough round to call, both with some good boxing but some of those body shots from JCC would have been tough to take and the right hand towards the end of the round swung it for him for me. Commentators had it down for Sweet P though.

Round 5:
Whitaker 9
Chavez 10
Comments JCC started the round like a whirlwind with several great body shots and despite some decent combos from Sweet P, JCC was busier and landed much better quality punches, including a great right at the end of the round

Round 6:
Whitaker 10
Chavez 9
Comments Sweet P controlled the distance well again to avoid those body shots, keeping JCC at bay with the jab and some good combos until the low blow which pissed JCC off and although he was rocked towards the end I think he rebounded well enough to take the round, just

Round 7:
Whitaker 10
Chavez 9
Comments JCC coming forward and looking busy but Sweet P had the better quality throughout the round and edges it for me

Round 8:
Whitaker 10
Chavez 9
Comments Took a few but Sweet P absolutely dominated that round. JCC looks knackered.
Round 9:

Whitaker 10
Chavez 10
Comments Great round, JCC starting strongly but Sweet P coming back into it towards the end. Both landed some good quality punches. Couldn’t separate them in this one.
Round 10:

Whitaker 10
Chavez 9
Comments JCC looking really tired, didn’t do too much during the round and when he tried to towards the end Sweet P was able to tie him up and stop him
Round 11:

Whitaker 10
Chavez 9
Comments Messy, tired round but Sweet P with the better quality

Round 12:
Whitaker 10
Chavez 9
Comments JCC didn’t do enough in the final round to win it for me.

Total:
Whitaker 116
Chavez 113

Couldn't believe that two judges called it a draw, but there were a lot of close rounds that could have gone either way though. JCC wasted far too much energy early on and was far more fatigued towards the end of the fight.

The commentators annoyed the fuck out of me.

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63244 on: May 14, 2020, 09:57:49 am »
The commentators were biased as hell until the end. Was tempted to turn it off in middle rounds but I need the sound for the atmosphere

Offline duvva 💅

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63245 on: May 14, 2020, 10:02:52 am »
The commentators were biased as hell until the end. Was tempted to turn it off in middle rounds but I need the sound for the atmosphere
I planned to watch it without volume as I often find the Comms seeing things differently and it can confuse matters when trying to score. But due to the quality of the film I felt like I needed something to help judge whether punches were landing or not.
Think the co-commentator was Ferdie Pacheco “the fight doctor” who was part of the Ali entourage up to the Thrilla in Manila.
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Offline Welshred

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63246 on: May 14, 2020, 10:04:13 am »
The commentators were biased as hell until the end. Was tempted to turn it off in middle rounds but I need the sound for the atmosphere

They made it sound like Whitaker won every single round and JCC hadn't done a thing, much like your card to be honest ;) made me laugh when they said they had it level going into the final few rounds.

Offline duvva 💅

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63247 on: May 14, 2020, 10:04:41 am »
Was one of the judges who scored it a draw Mickey Vann? Never a fan of his
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Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63248 on: May 14, 2020, 10:11:41 am »
They made it sound like Whitaker won every single round and JCC hadn't done a thing, much like your card to be honest ;) made me laugh when they said they had it level going into the final few rounds.

Fair point  :D


Offline Lusty

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63249 on: May 14, 2020, 10:48:49 am »
First off, great idea Clayton and good fight to have chosen.  I don't think I've seen this start to finish but I knew the fight by reputation at least.  Also like Clayton, not sure how much of Whitaker I have watched from start to finish, other than the odd YouTube compilation.  So I really enjoyed this.

I had some really detailed notes on this, which I didn't save and lost when my PC rebooted for patches last night  :butt  So, you'll all have to do without the 6,000 word essay I had prepared!

The short answer is that I had Sweet Pea winning 117 - 111.  I gave Chavez the first 2 rounds, and round 9.  Other than that, it was a masterpiece from Whitaker, perfect footwork and he just had Chavez exactly where he wanted him all night.  Chavez's record before the fight was more than 80-0 with over 70 KOs, so that gives an idea on the scale of the achievement.

One thing I tried to do given the reputation the fight had was figure out how you could score it a draw, and how bad of a robbery it was.  I'm not a huge conspiracy theorist with boxing, I think most dodgy decisions have some rationale behind them somewhere.  So, how did the judges get to a draw?

As I said, I gave Chavez rounds 1, 2 and 9.  There seems to be some online consensus that Chavez won round 5 as well (although I had it as a very clear round for Whitaker).  So, lets say 116-112 is the starting point, you've got to find 2 rounds for Chavez somewhere.

I made a note around the 4th that Chavez was hitting fresh air or gloves a lot, and it was getting the crowd going thinking they'd landed.  I'm convinced this kind of thing influences judges, so many home cooking decisions to me are based on the crowd cheering near misses.  This was happening a lot in the 4th and 5th, Whitaker had the range absolutely perfect but from a distance you might think that Chavez was landing.  I've already given Chavez the 5th in this scenario, so we'll add the 4th as well and that gets us to 115-113.  Just need one more round.

Now, the controversial round is the 6th, with the low blow.  I think Chavez had been landing low blows all night, the commentators even brought it up and said at one point that Whitaker needs to land some low blows of his own.  Chavez made an absolute meal of it though and I think that swayed the judges.  Micky Vann said as much afterwards that he docked Whitaker a point for that even though the referee didn't (according to Wikipedia anyway!), saying 'The referee didn't take off a point, but I thought it had to be done.'  So, there's your draw, 114-114.

Having said that, the scores were 115-115 so fuck knows how that happened!  I did see an interview clip with Micky Vann saying Chavez had his best round in the 12th which I gave to Whitaker, so maybe this was just good old fashioned incompetence.

Offline Welshred

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63250 on: May 14, 2020, 11:05:25 am »
I gave Chavez the 5th, I just thought he landed the better quality of punches including a great right just before the bell which probably persuaded many to give it to him.

I can't see any way that he wins the 12th though, he was gassed and just didn't really do anything in it.

Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63251 on: May 14, 2020, 11:20:40 am »
Just like the first time I saw the fight I give the win to Sweet Pea by 117-111.  JCC didn't do enough in the opening 4/5 rounds to get the win.

Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63252 on: May 14, 2020, 11:23:04 am »
The commentators were biased as hell until the end. Was tempted to turn it off in middle rounds but I need the sound for the atmosphere

It was an American fighter against a Mexican mate.  And you know the yanks are about thinking they're the best in everything. ;D

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63253 on: May 14, 2020, 11:31:33 am »
Gave Chavez the first two rounds, thats it.

Offline duvva 💅

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63254 on: May 14, 2020, 11:49:56 am »
I gave Chavez the 5th, I just thought he landed the better quality of punches including a great right just before the bell which probably persuaded many to give it to him.

I can't see any way that he wins the 12th though, he was gassed and just didn't really do anything in it.
That 5th rounds a difficult one, I noted that Chavez won the first half but by the end I felt Whitaker had done enough to get in front and take the round. Clearly a round that could perhaps go either way though.
The twelfth I don’t remember as clearly, but felt Chavez tried to rally and Whitaker tried to stay away as he thought he’d done enough. I was perhaps trying to give Chavez something but don’t think it’s as clear cut as you.
There were four rounds for me that were clear as day for Whitaker 3, 7. 8 and 10 the rest were closer one way or the other. Still no doubt who won it for me
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Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63255 on: May 14, 2020, 11:54:44 am »
The middle rounds were all Pernell. Chavez didn't do anything of note.

Offline Lusty

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63256 on: May 14, 2020, 12:08:52 pm »
I gave Chavez the 5th, I just thought he landed the better quality of punches including a great right just before the bell which probably persuaded many to give it to him.

I can't see any way that he wins the 12th though, he was gassed and just didn't really do anything in it.

Yeah looking online it seems everyone more or less gives Chavez 1, 2 and 9 (think Whitaker took that round off). There's quite a few giving Chavez the 5th, I think a lot of what he was doing just came up a bit short but I can see it.

12th is a bit more muddled, you could maybe give it to Chavez just because he's the one pushing but it was more desperation than aggression for me 

Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63257 on: May 14, 2020, 12:15:12 pm »
This was the fight poster.  8)


Offline Welshred

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63258 on: May 14, 2020, 12:55:09 pm »
Yeah looking online it seems everyone more or less gives Chavez 1, 2 and 9 (think Whitaker took that round off). There's quite a few giving Chavez the 5th, I think a lot of what he was doing just came up a bit short but I can see it.

12th is a bit more muddled, you could maybe give it to Chavez just because he's the one pushing but it was more desperation than aggression for me 

I had the 9th as a draw, couldn't separate them and thought they both did some good work.

I can see what you mean by the 12th but I really don't think Chavez did anything of note in the round, it certainly wasn't a huge flurry of punches like you'd see from someone trying to get a knockout or the points to win it.

Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63259 on: May 14, 2020, 01:39:58 pm »
There is a line of thinking that Pernell and his team waited for Chavez to basically get old in the ring because god knows how many rounds and fights he had by then. They wanted no part of him in 89/90 apparently.

Offline Lusty

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63260 on: May 14, 2020, 01:52:33 pm »
There is a line of thinking that Pernell and his team waited for Chavez to basically get old in the ring because god knows how many rounds and fights he had by then. They wanted no part of him in 89/90 apparently.

It's funny you say that, because it reminded me of Floyd v DLH at times.  Although Whitaker's style is a lot prettier.

Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63261 on: May 14, 2020, 02:58:02 pm »
Aye it's similar.  Chavez was still great in 93 but he was coming down from the peak. In 89/90 he was on the ascent to the top.


Offline Lusty

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63262 on: May 14, 2020, 03:24:42 pm »
Aye it's similar.  Chavez was still great in 93 but he was coming down from the peak. In 89/90 he was on the ascent to the top.



Yeah, I also don't think he had any business up at 147.  135 - 140 was where he belonged.

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63263 on: May 14, 2020, 03:52:37 pm »
Whittaker would have been fresher and quicker 4 years previous as well. His style always giving Chavez fits I reckon. Undoubtedly a close r fight though

Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63264 on: May 14, 2020, 03:57:44 pm »
The Meldrick Taylor fight (the first one) took a helluva lot out of Chavez as well.   

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63265 on: May 14, 2020, 04:43:01 pm »
This was,in my opinion,a masterclass from Whitaker against the aggressive Chavez who was undefeated in 80+ pro contests (I'm not counting the Meldrick Taylor fight).  I was amazed with the decision at the time but I've since read two of the judges were a bit too cosy with JCC's promoter Don King, including England's Mickey Vann who knocked off a point for a Whitaker low blow despite the ref ruling it accidental. Dodgy decisions don't get much worse than this. My score is 117-111 for Sweet Pea.

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63266 on: May 14, 2020, 07:20:19 pm »
Quote from: Lusty link=topic=79273.msg17169587#msgBug er17169587 date=1589466282
Yeah, I also don't think he had any business up at 147.  135 - 140 was where he belonged.

Not splitting hairs but the fight was a catchweight 145lbs at Chavez insistance. Good idea this thread, Cooper v Bugner would be worth a watch or am I showing my age haha

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63267 on: May 14, 2020, 07:31:38 pm »
Anything controversial/razor thin would be decent and Ive heard lots about the cooper fight. Im game for it. . Would love to do Calzaghe v Hopkins at some point as well

Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63268 on: May 14, 2020, 07:47:44 pm »
Schedule for rewatches are:

Hagler v Leonard

Cooper v Bugner

Offline Welshred

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63269 on: May 14, 2020, 07:57:30 pm »
Would love to do Calzaghe v Hopkins at some point as well

That's an easy 119-110 to Calzaghe so pointless doing it ;D

Has anyone got a link for Hagler/Leonard? Just so we've all got the same stream

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63270 on: May 14, 2020, 08:02:25 pm »
 :wave

Link to Hagler-Leonard for anyone who needs it

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zH1U1jC0Lgc

Looking forward to both this and discussing Chavez v Sweet Pea later today

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63271 on: May 14, 2020, 08:28:43 pm »
That's an easy 119-110 to Calzaghe so pointless doing it ;D

Has anyone got a link for Hagler/Leonard? Just so we've all got the same stream

 ;D

 I actually had Hopkins winning first time but hada dreadful stream so interested to see how i score it now

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63272 on: May 14, 2020, 08:58:11 pm »
Had Leonard winning this the first time I watched this.

Offline Lusty

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63273 on: May 14, 2020, 09:22:41 pm »
Not splitting hairs but the fight was a catchweight 145lbs at Chavez insistance. Good idea this thread, Cooper v Bugner would be worth a watch or am I showing my age haha

Yeah but was for the 147 title.  Even then, Chavez came in at only 142, Whitaker was 145 on the nose, so probably outweighed him by a fair bit when the fight started.

;D

 I actually had Hopkins winning first time but hada dreadful stream so interested to see how i score it now

I gave it to Calzaghe, but I was absolutely hammered at the time ;D

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63274 on: May 14, 2020, 09:25:01 pm »

I gave it to Calzaghe, but I was absolutely hammered at the time ;D

Don't worry mate I was completely sober and Calzaghe clearly won

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63275 on: May 14, 2020, 09:32:51 pm »
Don't worry mate I was completely sober and Calzaghe clearly won

;D

I'll take your word for it!

Offline Samie

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63276 on: May 14, 2020, 09:37:11 pm »
Joe won but let's be honest Grandad Hopkins in his Middleweight pomp would've done him easily.

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63277 on: May 14, 2020, 09:40:35 pm »
Looking forward to watching this Hagler Leonard fight. Heard all about it but have not even seen highlights of it in the past




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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63278 on: May 14, 2020, 09:54:05 pm »
Looking forward to watching this Hagler Leonard fight. Heard all about it but have not even seen highlights of it in the past





Leonard had been virtually retired for 3 years and goaded Hagler into a fight, somewhat on his terms, after watching him against Duran and Hearns. Looking forward to watching again this weekend.

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Re: Boxing thread
« Reply #63279 on: May 15, 2020, 12:40:41 am »
Leonard had been virtually retired for 3 years and goaded Hagler into a fight, somewhat on his terms, after watching him against Duran and Hearns. Looking forward to watching again this weekend.


Leonard had only had one fight in five years, but Hagler only fought once a year in 85 and 86 and was probably about to retire before deciding on one last big payday. Think Hagler got 2/3 of £30m purse split, which was ridiculous money even for most fighters today.
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