Topic: Possession based football

[DanA]

The is a hell of a lot to it.

Our attacking three of Carroll, Kuyt & Suarez are not quick enough to get in behind defences. It wasn't so bad when Gerrard was fit as either he or Meireles could make a run which troubled defences but since then we've not had a threat. This allows opposition defences to push up and press us.

Losing our fullbacks has made it worse. We now have Carra & Wilson who lack the attacking side of playing fullback. Now we have teams pressing us and stacking the middle of the pitch knowing we are not going to get much from our wide areas.

Then we lost Agger and are forced to play Skrtel & Kyrgiakos in central defence. Opposition know they can beat Kyrgiakos on the ground and pressuring the ball away from our defenders further increasing pressure on our midfield and forcing us into a hoofball situation.

It's a disasterous situation right now.

The first thing I think we have to do is get our fullback situation sorted. It'll reduce the pressure opposition can put on our midfield, give us some width and improve the quality of ball in to Caroll.
(Coentrao/Izaguirre)

The 2nd thing we should do is add some speed in to our attack. That will reduce how much the opposition can press up on us as inevitably doing that will lead to space behind their defence and opportunities for quick attackers. (Gervinho/Young)

The thrid 3rd thing we need to do is get a ball playing defender. Agger fitness wise can't be relied on, getting a ball playing CB will reduce the effectiveness of forward pressure and improve the link up with the midfield.
(Vertonghen/?)

The next important thing is finding a ball playing CM. Someone that can release Gerrard/Meireles into attacking roles and dictate the tempo of the game.
(Sahin/Adam)

This will all force the opposition back and give us more possesion. We don't necessarily need to speend a fortune on players (it'd be nice) but I think we need these types. Without it we can't control posession because opposition can't be punished when they fight for it.
 

[Gnurglan]

Rafa (08-09) is what we should aim.

Very good target. We had a team that could play any type of football.

[Breitner]

Very good target. We had a team that could play any type of football.

But won nothing.

[redtrev]

But won nothing.

Is that the level if your response?
compare the performances of our team now to then and it's demoralising. And before everyone start s getting on the kenny band wagon I understand the circumstances kenny came in under And am delighted he s in but if he gets us back to that level of performance then that's success in my book.and I ve no doubt that that level will be good enough for us to win competitions.   

[DanA]

Got to remember that team only just lost the league to United who had Tevez, Rooney & Berbtov in attack. A younger Giggs & Fletcher and an in form Vidic, Ferdinand & Evra.

In Champions League we creamed Real Madrid and were as strong as any team. The only really concerning loss was to Chelsea in the semi final.

That was a cracking team which certainly would have won things but for two buys (Robbie Keane & Dossena). Had that been Arshavin & Heinze who would have been similarly priced then that team would have won plenty.

[Breitner]

Got to remember that team only just lost the league to United who had Tevez, Rooney & Berbtov in attack. A younger Giggs & Fletcher and an in form Vidic, Ferdinand & Evra.

In Champions League we creamed Real Madrid and were as strong as any team. The only really concerning loss was to Chelsea in the semi final.

That was a cracking team which certainly would have won things but for two buys (Robbie Keane & Dossena). Had that been Arshavin & Heinze who would have been similarly priced then that team would have won plenty.

All ifs and buts. And it wasn't as close as it appeared, we were always playing catch up after some poor performances at key stages of the season. Regardless, it's impossible to recreate the past, this is a new team and new manager and the quality of the players will dictate the tactics and philosophy. We just need to be patient, which I realise is a difficult on a forum.

[1021]

But won nothing.

We didn't no. But that was a very good, balanced side, who played some gorgeous football.
It is the best side we have had in 20 years and this for me should be the blueprint of anything Kenny should be looking to build.

If I were Kenny and Commoli in the summer I would go from there, look at the players we have and how they would fit into it and then identify the problem positions which are most notably defensive ones.
4-2-3-1 is highly flexible, if you have the players that fit into that you can easily switch to a 4-3-3 and you can have the offensive FB's that Kenny seems to like whilst still providing enough protection to your centre halves with 2 men playing relatively deeply in the midfield.

In that summer after we finished 2nd and we bought Glen Johnson I could see what Rafa was trying to do.
Off the back of that season, many said and rightly so it was the draws that cost us, and on many occasions we could control the game but we just didn't have enough to break oppositon down and do what United do so frustratingly well which is get those 1-0 victories, grind down opponents.
Introducing Glen provided us with another offensive asset without messing up the shape that had provided so much baalnce, had we kept Xabi and lets not get into that on here and not lost the midfield axis of Masch and the Basque behind Gerrard giving him so much license to get forward we would have been better placed to get out of Glen what we have started to see from him under Kenny, effective forward play without exposing ourselves at the back.

But high tempo, pressure high up the field, value of possesion, all qualities that this side had in abundance and qualities we need to move forward.

I know you aren't a fan of Rafa, it is something I will never understand.
But surely you can see the merits of taking alot of examples from the side Rafa assembled and the philosophy of it.
And I don't believe for one second that you didn't enjoy that run in, or watching that side play.
That as a blueprint, with added finesse Kenny will be more willing to have than Rafa and we are onto something.
A player like Suarez would have thrived in that playing just behind Torres in that 4-2-3-1 formation.

But if we want to play this possesion football, the building from the back sort of thing, the back needs dealing with.
CB and LB are massive problems for us. Not just because Carra is past his best, Soto though God loves a trier isn't the bets, Skrtel struggles to partner either of them and the fella he has done well alongside Agger is injured. But because there is a real tendancy within much of our back line to play long, hopeless balls up the field. And we can't be doing this possesion based football when we have defenders who launch the thing. We need composure at the back, we have it with Daniel, but we hardly have Daniel. We need a bit of a clear out and we need some heavy investment at CH.

At LB we look set to lose Insua, we have to lose Konchesky and we can no longer make the arguement for keeping Aurelio, a wonderfully technically gifted player though he is.

I think we have the basis for a very good possesion based play side, but the squad needs heavy investment, and heavily coaching.
Pepe, Johnson, Kelly Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Gerrard, Raul, Maxi, Suarez, Carroll, plus unestablished youngsters isn't a bad start but we need change.
I don't see massive overhaul in the summer I don't see how we can afford it but the philosophy of the side will change under Kenny and hopefully a good amount of personnel to boot.

[Beninger]

Speaking of Carroll, if you get the ball into his feet and have our midfield and "wingers" look to make themselves available for a pass from him, we will see an incredible amount of ball retention.  The kind of retention we were missing with Torres leading the line the last 18 months.  Same goes with Suarez. 

[Reds4Life]

Possession for possessions sake won't win you football matches.

Possession with purpose and intent when you have it is the key here.

Possession that can be utilised using differing strategies is also an element which needs to be considered. Possession that is altered from quick interplay to wing play to dribbling ball players, stretching teams all pover the park looking for the weakness to exploit and utilising our strengths to exploit them... This is what our team in 87-88 had. If you need any evidence of that watch the Notts Forest game at Anfield when we annihilated them 5-0.

Possession utilising different tempos is one of the major differences between creating chances and merely passing in neat little triangles on the half way line and only increasing the percentages on the stats screen at half and full time.

This is the difference between Barca and Arsenal. Arsenal play great football, undeniable. The problem is that they lack that ability to suddenly increase the tempo and cut a team up incisively. They have tried to complement Fabregas who has this ability by buying Nasri, Wilshere, Arshavin and van Persie.

Teams in England play different football to the continent and I think it is because of the consequences of not staying up in the EPL which has dictated that to a large extent over the last 10 years. They are prepared to drag 10 men behind the ball and allow a team to play in front of it and hold possession all they like.

One dimensional football teams playing other one dimensional football teams has become score bores. Players have become robotic. Teams are essentially playing not to lose rather than playing to win. This gulf is exacerbated when you have financial consequences of staying in the EPL.

When we play in Europe and when we have played in Europe, our greatest wins have come when we have dictated the tempo, created different angles of penetrating teams and had the players to complement the system of multi-faceted attack.

Hunger, desire, ability, confidence, motivation, technique, commitment, speed, awareness and selflessness are all traits which are coveted in footballers... well to me Liverpool Football Club footballers..

[horne]

Possession for possessions sake won't win you football matches.

Possession with purpose and intent when you have it is the key here.

Possession that can be utilised using differing strategies is also an element which needs to be considered. Possession that is altered from quick interplay to wing play to dribbling ball players, stretching teams all pover the park looking for the weakness to exploit and utilising our strengths to exploit them... This is what our team in 87-88 had. If you need any evidence of that watch the Notts Forest game at Anfield when we annihilated them 5-0.

Possession utilising different tempos is one of the major differences between creating chances and merely passing in neat little triangles on the half way line and only increasing the percentages on the stats screen at half and full time.

This is the difference between Barca and Arsenal. Arsenal play great football, undeniable. The problem is that they lack that ability to suddenly increase the tempo and cut a team up incisively. They have tried to complement Fabregas who has this ability by buying Nasri, Wilshere, Arshavin and van Persie.

Teams in England play different football to the continent and I think it is because of the consequences of not staying up in the EPL which has dictated that to a large extent over the last 10 years. They are prepared to drag 10 men behind the ball and allow a team to play in front of it and hold possession all they like.

One dimensional football teams playing other one dimensional football teams has become score bores. Players have become robotic. Teams are essentially playing not to lose rather than playing to win. This gulf is exacerbated when you have financial consequences of staying in the EPL.

When we play in Europe and when we have played in Europe, our greatest wins have come when we have dictated the tempo, created different angles of penetrating teams and had the players to complement the system of multi-faceted attack.

Hunger, desire, ability, confidence, motivation, technique, commitment, speed, awareness and selflessness are all traits which are coveted in footballers... well to me Liverpool Football Club footballers..

this and as fans we effect hunger,desire,confidence,motivation,...less criticising and more support needed

[Britican]

Possession with purpose and intent when you have it is the key here.

That's exactly the point.  Lately it seems that our possession lacks the intent and, frequently, lacks any forward momentum.  Perhaps the desire to get the ball forward is one of the reasons Carra is hoofing it so often. 

[slimbo]

The 4 main principles of attack in football.

Depth, Width, Movement & Penetration (waits for 14yr old boy jokes)

Possession without penetration is either waiting for the opportunity to go forward or just winding the clock down.

I disagree with those who say possession is overrated. It is everything. Without the ball you can't win.

At the last World Cup the three teams that topped the possession stats for the tournament were Spain, Germany and Holland. They went ok.

It is true that possession doesn't guarantee victory. Spain's highest possession stat for the WC was around 70% against Switzerland in the first match. It was the only game they lost. They dominated possession and attacked relentlessly but couldn't score that day.

Over the course of a season or tournament though, there is no question a team that consistently dominates possession will be at the right end of the table.

[Reds4Life]

Whilst I agree with you Slimbo (see my post above) possession is only 9 tenths of the law.

There is a difference between possession and the principles you mentioned..

I don't think people are necessarily saying possession is overrated per se, I think the general feeling is that it is what you do with possession that counts.

By employing those four principles you mentioned, it doesn't necessarily mean you need large amounts of posession, just a well drilled system whereby the parts are fluent moving in symbiance with the others.

The counter attacks we used to employ in the 70's and 80's were lightning fast, quick possession but maximising the opportunity.

[slimbo]

The 4 main principles of attack in football.

Depth, Width, Movement & Penetration (waits for 14yr old boy jokes)

Possession without penetration is either waiting for the opportunity to go forward or just winding the clock down.

Whilst I agree with you Slimbo (see my post above) possession is only 9 tenths of the law.

There is a difference between possession and the principles you mentioned..

Yep, I agree with you. I wasn't trying to make a point out of the first three principles. Just reinforcing what some others were saying about possession for possession's sake.

I highlighted the last principle "penetration" to say that if we have possession it needs to have this principle of attack with it or possession is of little value.

[Reds4Life]

Absolutely agree with you Slimbo, 100%

[Cybertom]

I'm definitely in favour of posession based football. It's what made us successful, United successful and also Barcelona successful.
Also, the opponents can't score without the ball.

[Roy of the rovers]

Also, the opponents can't score without the ball.

Not picking on you, as lots of people have repeated this. Its true, but rubbish. Like "zones don't score, players do"

Inter beat Barca last year with one of the lowest possesion stats in any competitive game. Won the treble, come to that.

Possession football is one option, even a very good one. But it is not 'required to win'.

[007.lankyguy]

First of all I've missed possession football from us this season. However much people say that possession is nothing without penetration, there are not many top teams that actually don't usually have a majority of possession in most of their matches. Under Rafa we regularly, particularly against the smaller teams, had a vast majority of possession, a lot of the time around 60%. It was mainly down to something that Rafa is very very obssessive about - control. Having control is the best way for a team to win things even if it is just controlling the space. Unfortunately having control requires a lot of hard work on the small details so that you are best prepared for the different outcomes in a match. Possession is arguably the main way of control in football.

Possession itself is of course meaningless if you don't get the result at the end of it. However it is extremely rare that nothing is coming out of possession. Even if it is just moving it about from side to side, you are moving a team around, often tiring and frustrating them. Even if you aren't penetrating them it's not pointless. It's not just an attacking tactic, it's a defensive tactic and a tactic that was utilised extremely well by Spain in the World Cup - it may be a simple thing that has already been mentioned but if you have the ball then you can't concede and this is just what Spain did.

Some people pointed out that Inter's treble last year and in particular their game at the Nou Camp was maybe a sign of change in football. That maybe possession didn't matter anymore. But as far as I'm concerned it was just a bit of an overreaction. Inter were already 3-1 ahead from the first leg and then Motta got sent off. What were they meant to do? They're not going to go gung ho, that would be stupid. They sat back and just fully concentrated on defence. And it worked. I know they're main style of play was this counter attacking style but I think that said more about their players and manager rather than the way football was going to go. Inter were made up of experienced and versatile players and Mourinho used them to form a defensive game and be able to react to any formation that opponents threw at them because many of the players could play in different positions. They were superbly organised and just worked supremely well.

Under Kenny our possession stats haven't really changed from what they were under Roy. We are more of passing side but more reliant on quick incisive passing rather keeping the ball patiently waiting for an opening. Now ideally we could do with an extra "passer" in the centre of midfield and also centre back so that we keep hold of the ball a bit longer. Lucas is terrific at just keeping it short and simple and keeping the ball ticking over. If we had another passer next to him then our possession would improve significantly, as would buying another ball playing centre back.

Of course it's not necessarily as simple as that. Barcelona's keep of the ball is world class yet a lot of it is built up from understanding between each other. They simply wouldn't dominate games if they rotated 4 or 5 players consistently. This is due to not only lack of depth but also through the understanding that the main players have. They get so used to each other that they can just read what they are going to do so quickly it's breathtaking. That's why a lot of the signings they've made in recent seasons just haven't fitted in. They haven't been able to whilst players like Pedro and Busquets have slowly developed into world class players in that system. No slight on any of the Barca players but if any of them were to change teams then they simply wouldn't be as good because they wouldn't have the understanding between the other players.

If we had ambitions to be a possession based team then it would take time. As already said by someone on here, in a couple of years we can maybe try and introduce a full possession based game. But for now it is about improving the squad in the right areas and making a system that will suit the current players.

[Armand9]

Out wide Maxi is a pass and move player and under-rated in my opinion, we always seem to play better when he starts. But he's probably the only one.

Glad someone else noticed. In our current system/way of playing when our ball players have been missing (esp from the back, agger, aurelio etc), maxi has looked poor on a number of occasions, hence all and sundry (well, it seems like anyway) include him in the list to be shipped out come summer. Whether he should or shouldn't, i don't know, depends who's coming in etc.

However, your point, and mine, is that he's overlooked by many when you consider his contribution when we have played well and actually got some pass and move flowing. In all the games where this has been the case that i can recall maxi is at the heart of the moves with quick passing and one touch football. At times, yeah even this season, we've produced some real class moves and movement and in these kind of games maxi shines. The man utd game is the most recent example where he was involved in some great play (faded a bit at times granted), altho suarez stole the show and rightly so.

If our aim next season is to play pass and move and produce football that is actually enjoyable to watch, then there's plenty that should be on the shipping out list before maxi. Like Keny said, he's an intelligent footballer, it's not a common trait esp in our league. However, if our aim is to hoof the fucking ball skyward for all eternity, then maxi should be first on the list, the game just passes him by in hoofball.

[Dar]

Has anyone noticed that we don't seem to be playing possession 'tiki-taka' football as much as we did at the start of the season, we seem a bit more direct, gerrard is always looking for a direct pass especially .

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

Yes i've definitely noticed this and was going to comment on it in the Rodgers thread. We are much more direct than our early games.

The only problem is that we now need the results to go with it otherwise we are neither achieving a new philosophy or points.

One thing I worry about is our notion of "control" with possession based football. For me, having possession does not necessarily mean we have control.

In the example of Chelsea VS Barcelona in teh Champion's League last year, Chelsea back ed off and let Barca have the ball - as teams do against us. If they are conceeding possession to us as a tactic then surely they are the ones in "control"? I have never heard our manager allude to this point.

[Max_powers]

I think what Rodgers wants is tiki-taka but he wants the players to play at a higher tempo in the final third to get more penetration as our players are to static to carve open defences with movement. Unfortunately this means very often our players start playing a more direct game while putting little value on possession. Players like Gerrard, Suarez and Sterling are naturally more direct type of players than Tiki-taka players so its hard for them to adapt. Our build-up from the back is usually quite good though, Agger, Allen, Henderson, Sahin and Lucas are more comfortable and patient with the ball so we are doing okay in that part of the pitch.

[Mutton Geoff]

I think Rodgers has looked at the squad and realised square pegs into round holes are not a good way to do things. Up to Saturday and even in parts of that game early on i thought we moved the ball around quickler and slicker much better than crossing the halfway line after our 25th pass in my opinion. We always needed variety in our play we seem to have now got it, whether by design or accident.