Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Breaking: clear-cut victory for Corbyn Brexit plan at NEC

In the last few moments Jeremy Corbyn’s victory at a meeting of Labour’s NEC (National Executive Committee) has been confirmed. Corbyn’s position on Brexit for the party’s European Parliament manifesto won easily, in spite of the unavoidable absence of a number of left NEC members.

The result is a humiliating defeat for deputy leader Tom Watson, who had tried to orchestrate pressure for a switch to support for another public vote.

https://skwawkbox.org/2019/04/30/breaking-clear-cut-victory-for-corbyn-brexit-plan-at-nec/

skwawkbox     

[ShakaHislop]

Then voting against Labour in the European elections won't make a blind bit of difference . Seriously, though, both sides are just going through the motions, neither of them have any intention of coming up with a deal. Labour especially, given that the government is imploding.

Look, I have no issue with you, you're a Lib Dem supporter and you're trying to convince people to vote Lib Dem. Fair play to you for that.

But let's not pretend it has anything to do with Brexit. Brexit won't be decided at European elections, and probably not even at a general election. It will be decided in a second referendum. So if you want remain to win, you're barking up the wrong tree. You need to start convincing Brexiters to vote remain, rather than trying to convince remainers to vote for another party. And, with this in mind, calling remainer Labour voters stupid can only be counter-productive.

How does a 2nd referendum become more likely if a pro-Brexit party like Labour does well? How do Remainers force Labour to move closer to making a 2nd ref its priority after they've shown Labour it can still have electoral success by treating a 2nd ref as an afterthought?

Remainers tried the "let's vote Labour and hope they'll come good" strategy in 2017 and it's achieved largely fuck all. Taking their votes elsewhere isn't merely an emotion-driven protest vote, but a pragmatic change of tactics. I'd prefer people to vote Lib Dem but even a vote for Change UK, or the Greens instead is still of a way of telling Labour enough is enough while still casting a pro-EU vote. Likewise, if a bad result for Labour does force its hand RE: a 2nd ref, I would understand people flocking back to Labour even if I won't do the same.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1123253807507496960

Where's your fucking dignity?

Corbyn could burn the EU flag live on TV and you'd still have spineless tossers like Streeting making Twitter calls to arms for Remainers to back Labour.

At least it lead me to Fionna O'Learys' twitter.

https://twitter.com/fascinatorfun

[BoRed]

Remainers tried the "let's vote Labour and hope they'll come good" strategy in 2017 and it's achieved largely fuck all.

It really hasn't. Brexit has already been postponed twice, pretty much exclusively through Labour voting against it. And not only have they voted against May's Brexit, they've also explicitly voted against a no deal Brexit (which some still claim is Labour leadership's preferred option). They've even voted for a second referendum on any deal amendment. Maybe people perceive Labour as an anti-Brexit party because they judge them on their voting record?

[ShakaHislop]

It really hasn't. Brexit has already been postponed twice, pretty much exclusively through Labour voting against it. And not only have they voted against May's Brexit, they've also explicitly voted against a no deal Brexit (which some still claim is Labour leadership's preferred option). They've even voted for a second referendum on any deal amendment. Maybe people perceive Labour as an anti-Brexit party because they judge them on their voting record?

Was an option to Remain clearly stated in that amendment?

And them voting against May's deal, and no deal doesn't refute the suggestion, well, reality that their preference is a Labour/jobs first Brexit.

[BoRed]

This is fun: https://euandi2019.eu

I'll be honest, I got the Greens on 83%, Lib Dems on 74%, ChUK on 64% and Labour on 61%.

Across Europe, my best match are Danish alternatives and Austrian Greens. Never heard of either of them.

[Alan_X]

So, almost zero chance of a second referendum.  Essentially we just want to win the next election and then we will still do brexit anyway.

Again, a vote for labour is a vote for brexit.

In a nutshell. Fuck the lot of them.

[Alan_X]

It really hasn't. Brexit has already been postponed twice, pretty much exclusively through Labour voting against it. And not only have they voted against May's Brexit, they've also explicitly voted against a no deal Brexit (which some still claim is Labour leadership's preferred option). They've even voted for a second referendum on any deal amendment. Maybe people perceive Labour as an anti-Brexit party because they judge them on their voting record?

It’s been postponed because the Tories and Labour are equally shambolic and split over Brexit and both are pretending that there’s a Brexit which is anything other than a disaster for Britain.

Labour is a de-facto Brexit party because it’s leader, it’s chief spokesman (Milne) and other key figures are all Bennite eurosceptics and always have been.

[Libertine]

This is fun: https://euandi2019.eu

81% PvdA, 80% D66, 80% GroenLinks.

Seems reasonable. Will go with D66 though....

LibDems top in the UK  , there's no LREM in France though 

[Yosser0_0]

This is fun: https://euandi2019.eu

I'll be honest, I got the Greens on 83%, Lib Dems on 74%, ChUK on 64% and Labour on 61%.

Across Europe, my best match are Danish alternatives and Austrian Greens. Never heard of either of them.

Mine's coming back as Tory / Brexit @ 65% and Change UK / Labour / LibDem / Plaid Cymru all @ 64%

 

[Zeb]

When I've done similar before, I've matched with the German Greens' voting records in the European Parliament near identically.

[ShakaHislop]

Shadow Trade Minister Barry Gardiner: ‘We will respect the referendum result, we should leave the European Union’

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1123328670871867392

[Sangria]

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1123328670871867392

Shadow Trade Minister Barry Gardiner: ‘We will respect the General Election result, we should support the Conservative government’

N'est-ce pas?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1123328670871867392

c*nt.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Reading what Labour leaders are saying, I've actually got to the stage where I wonder what the fuck I was ever doing ever even voting Labour.


Surely they can't have always been this fucking stupid or borderline evil?

[filopastry]

Tell me about it, I was a fucking member of this shitshow

[oldfordie]

So the Labour party believes we must respect a corrupt advisory referendum the courts would have voided if binding. a corrupt referendum won with a pack of lies, Labour support a policy that will bring decades of Austerity, lack of funding to services, job losses and workers rights.



Shadow Trade Minister Barry Gardiner: ‘We will respect the referendum result, we should leave the European Union’

[ShakaHislop]

Andrew Adonis looks like an even bigger knob today.

Proud of Labour’s local election campaign - as here in Swindon with me and ⁦@Keir_Starmer⁩. We need to get as many Labour councillors as possible elected to fight austerity & support local communities! The Euro election campaign, & our manifesto, are for after Thursday

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1123308164747812864

Is that when the real fight starts?

[Sangria]

So the Labour party believes we must respect a corrupt advisory referendum the courts would have voided if binding. a corrupt referendum won with a pack of lies, Labour support a policy that will bring decades of Austerity, lack of funding to services, job losses and workers rights.



Shadow Trade Minister Barry Gardiner: ‘We will respect the referendum result, we should leave the European Union’

A more accurate quote would be: ‘We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’. That's what it amounts to. We've got to the stage where Corbyn loyalists celebrate every defeat of Remainers. Jeremy Corbyn is the Labour party. The Labour party no longer exists outside Corbyn and his faction. The Labour party no longer supports ideals that exist outside of individuals. There are Corbyn positions, and these are the Labour party positions, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.

[Trada]

You do all realise we are talking about the EU manifesto to vote in MEPs who won't be able to vote for a peoples vote anyway Labour could win every seat in the EU election and it won't change the vote in Parliament.

Where Labour have voted 4 times in favour of a PV and every time it has been defeated.

[oldfordie]

A more accurate quote would be: ‘We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’. That's what it amounts to. We've got to the stage where Corbyn loyalists celebrate every defeat of Remainers. Jeremy Corbyn is the Labour party. The Labour party no longer exists outside Corbyn and his faction. The Labour party no longer supports ideals that exist outside of individuals. There are Corbyn positions, and these are the Labour party positions, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.

But he's not a dictator though, Labour members will decide Labour policy (well they will be given the opportunity to decide Labour policy when the leadership know they support Corbyns stance) I agree with your point though. hard to believe Labour members applauded Corbyn when he said we must leave the EU even if we know it will bring economic disaster. economic disaster =Job losses, poverty, Austerity and all the other s.. that comes with it. Corbyn is sticking to his word, Corbyn supporters supported him on this, looks like he's delivering.

[Ghost Town]

Dunt letting his Labour sympathies cloud his judgment again. As bad as when he tried to spin Labour's policy of ending FOM.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1123270233312104450

Labour's priority is to get a Brexit deal that is to their liking. I don't see how you can credibly claim a party is not pro-Brexit when delivering Brexit is their priority.

That's not what he means. He's saying that lots of Remainers WILL vote for Labour, whether you like it or not. So if you call Labour a Brexit Party all that will do is give every Leaver the ammunition to say that all those REMAIN voters' votes are actually Brexit votes because they are for a 'Brexit Party'.

The truth is irrelevant; it's how it will be spun that matters. Ergo constantly calling Labour a Brexit Party (even if that's what you believe) will actually be counterproductive.

That's the extent of his point. He has slagged off Labour to the wall and back in his other tweets and articles. But this tweet was a pragmatic point.

[Ghost Town]

In reality, as Bradshaw says, there will be no deal with the government, and no Labour government any time soon, so they'll be backing a second referendum. Everything else is there for election purposes. In reality, Labour are doing just fine.

You sure about that?

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1123333794730250241

[TepidT2O]

You sure about that?

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1123333794730250241

Hmm.. politics...

I suspect this is a ploy by one of the partys.  When it all collapses they can say ‘but we were so close, it’s all their fault.’

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Then voting against Labour in the European elections won't make a blind bit of difference . Seriously, though, both sides are just going through the motions, neither of them have any intention of coming up with a deal. Labour especially, given that the government is imploding.

Look, I have no issue with you, you're a Lib Dem supporter and you're trying to convince people to vote Lib Dem. Fair play to you for that.

But let's not pretend it has anything to do with Brexit. Brexit won't be decided at European elections, and probably not even at a general election. It will be decided in a second referendum. So if you want remain to win, you're barking up the wrong tree. You need to start convincing Brexiters to vote remain, rather than trying to convince remainers to vote for another party. And, with this in mind, calling remainer Labour voters stupid can only be counter-productive.

Well Labour are clearly a Remain Party. Corbyn is clearly a Brexit enabler.

If you vote for Labour as a Remainer with Corbyn in charge and you want to have someone represent you then you're an idiot.

The best outcome is that we have a breakaway party that represents Labour views and also represents Remain voters as we don't seem to have that at present.

Corbyn's problem is that given he's so engaged in the idea of Brexit (Something he's been obviously dreaming of since the 70s - look at all his past votes and motions on the subject) that he believes that eventually Remain voters will vote Labour regardless just to get the Tories out. But there are millions of Labour voters that feel betrayed and will fuck him and his party off.

I'd imagine most would return to Labour if he fucked off, but many won't. That he's so keen to drive this wedge into Labour and its voters is something that seems pretty indefensible. His 'Flying colourful glowing magic unicorn' of a fucking 'Labour Brexit' that magics all the 'nasty fings away innit' is so clearly fucking stupid you'd have to be off your chump to agree with it - unless you're a Labour Brexit voter and I think we can all agree they are genuinely as thick as pigshit. Enabling a Tory Brexit that will fuck poor people and the vunerable over for nearly half a century is now somehow good? Really?

Is this what Labour is supposed to stand for fucking over the NHS, Services across the country and people everywhere? And this is a good idea and something we 'should' vote for.

Well, speaking for myself he can fuck off and the horse he rode in on.

[Sangria]

You do all realise we are talking about the EU manifesto to vote in MEPs who won't be able to vote for a peoples vote anyway Labour could win every seat in the EU election and it won't change the vote in Parliament.

Where Labour have voted 4 times in favour of a PV and every time it has been defeated.

The Tories won 4 general elections in a row between 1979 and 1992, with the last being the highest vote ever. Does this mean we should vote Tory for ever more?

And more recently, the Tories have won 3 general elections in a row: 2010, 2015, 2017. Does this mean we should give up voting non-Tory in the future? After all, Labour could win every MEP election, and it won't change a thing in Parliament.

Corbynites: supporting the Tories since 24th June 2016.

[Devon Red]

You do all realise we are talking about the EU manifesto to vote in MEPs who won't be able to vote for a peoples vote anyway Labour could win every seat in the EU election and it won't change the vote in Parliament.

Where Labour have voted 4 times in favour of a PV and every time it has been defeated.

Not true, Labour abstained on the first PV vote and failed to whip the others with any enthusiasm or consequences for the rebels, even on the front bench.

Also bollocks on the manifesto; it's an opportunity to clarify and amend policy, what MEPs can or cannot vote on is not the issue. The manifesto actually puts Labour further away from fully supporting a PV as it once against places barriers. Every time it looks like a PV is the only option left standing the Labour leadership restate the provisos that had previously been proven impossible. A general election is not happening. Why restate it?

Do you not believe Barry Gardiner when he says that Labour will facilitate Brexit? Do you think he's not speaking for the leadership?

[ShakaHislop]

That's not what he means. He's saying that lots of Remainers WILL vote for Labour, whether you like it or not. So if you call Labour a Brexit Party all that will do is give every Leaver the ammunition to say that all those REMAIN voters' votes are actually Brexit votes because they are for a 'Brexit Party'.

The truth is irrelevant; it's how it will be spun that matters. Ergo constantly calling Labour a Brexit Party (even if that's what you believe) will actually be counterproductive.

That's the extent of his point. He has slagged off Labour to the wall and back in his other tweets and articles. But this tweet was a pragmatic point.

Labour Remainers voting for a Brexit party is what will give Leavers such ammunition, not the people who will merely point that out (and if fellow Remainers don't as you claim Dunt is suggesting, Leavers will more than happily do so) The phrase "don't shoot the messenger" springs to mind.

I'm sick of mollycoddling voters. If you voted for Brexit and you lose your job over it, it's ultimately your own fault. Likewise, if you vote for Brexit Labour and your vote is, not unreasonably, construed as a vote for Brexit, that's your fault. The pragmatic thing for Remainers is to simply not vote for a Brexit party. If they still aren't prepared to do so, fine but take responsibility for it. If it rains tomorrow, it'll be the fucking fault of non-Labour voting Remainers according to some.

[Yorkykopite]

I don’t know why we are even discussing this. Labour is a Brexit party. It is constantly throwing up obstacles to a second referendum. And while it may not be agitating for Brexit it is relying on drift to take us there. It’s been doing this since the morning Corbyn wanted A50 triggered.

There is a contradiction of course. Labour voters are mainly Remainers. Labour members are mainly Remainers. Labour MPs are mainly Remainers. Labour’s EU candidates are all Remainers.

But here is the tragedy. It doesn’t matter. If the party was truly democratic it would do of course. But it isn’t. It is actually an oligarchy not a democracy. The voters, the members, the representatives have no say when it comes to the question of Europe. It’s exclusively a matter for Corbyn and the unelected party officers who serve him. They are all ideological Brexiteers and they write policy and decide tactics.

Labour is a Brexit party.

If you’re a Remainer then it’s a bit stupid to vote for them.

[ShakaHislop]

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1123286424206368768

[Yorkykopite]

Disaffiliate Manuel. Unions should be looking after their members first, not the political fortunes of Jeremy Corbyn. Trade unions would carry more clout if they used the political levy to fund their own campaigns, and played hard to get instead of submerging themselves within the Labour Party.

[sms1986]

This is fun: https://euandi2019.eu

I'll be honest, I got the Greens on 83%, Lib Dems on 74%, ChUK on 64% and Labour on 61%.

Across Europe, my best match are Danish alternatives and Austrian Greens. Never heard of either of them.

I got Scottish Greens at 80% (although I'm not Scottish so can't vote for them), 75% SDLP (not from NI either), Greens and Lib Dems on 73%. Labour, PC and SF all on 70%.

My best matches elsewhere were Irish Greens on 88%, Slovenian Social Democrats on 85%, Danish Alternativet on 84%. Generally it seems I most closely align with Greens and Social Democrats.

[Devon Red]

I like this article from Alex Andreou; https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/05/01/the-remain-tactic-is-now-simple-give-labour-a-bloody-nose

"strategic voting is irrelevant, the number of MEPs is irrelevant, which Remain party you favour is irrelevant, how well Frottage does is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is to show Labour that there is no route to No.10 unless they change tack. The only strategy is to give Labour a bloody nose, in as emphatic a way as possible."

Even if you are a lifelong Labour supporter, even if you will vote for them in local and general elections, even if you support Corbyn's policies - please, if you believe that we are better off in the EU than out, lend your vote at the EU elections to a remain party. It really is the only way to show Labour how much this matters to its voters.

[KillieRed]

I got Scottish Greens at 80% (although I'm not Scottish so can't vote for them), 75% SDLP (not from NI either), Greens and Lib Dems on 73%. Labour, PC and SF all on 70%.

My best matches elsewhere were Irish Greens on 88%, Slovenian Social Democrats on 85%, Danish Alternativet on 84%. Generally it seems I most closely align with Greens and Social Democrats.

Scottish Greens - 81%
Lib Dems - 80%
Sinn Fein - 78%

The last two being quite a surprise...

[Yosser0_0]

Disaffiliate Manuel. Unions should be looking after their members first, not the political fortunes of Jeremy Corbyn. Trade unions would carry more clout if they used the political levy to fund their own campaigns, and played hard to get instead of submerging themselves within the Labour Party.

What really sticks in my throat is that when the Labour Leadership election took place in 2015, most sections of my union, Unite including my sector recommended backing Andy Burnham for leader. Yet because Len fucking McCluskey is chief executive of Unite, his recommendation of Corbyn suddenly became the stance of "Unite the Union" and all its members - it isn't!!

https://unitetheunion.org/what-we-do/unite-in-politics/

I'm gutted because I think Andy Burnham would have been a great leader and would probably cruise to a GE victory against this lot. I've read on here that posters have left the labour party because of the direction that the party is taking but surely people need to keep their membership and vote against Corbyn at these leadership contests? Although I'm not sure entirely how the leadership voting works as it seems very much stacked it favour of Corbyn as he also won the 2016 leadership election quite easily. 

[Mutton Geoff]

A more accurate quote would be: ‘We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’. That's what it amounts to. We've got to the stage where Corbyn loyalists celebrate every defeat of Remainers. Jeremy Corbyn is the Labour party. The Labour party no longer exists outside Corbyn and his faction. The Labour party no longer supports ideals that exist outside of individuals. There are Corbyn positions, and these are the Labour party positions, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.

You keep churning out this garbage and you are not alone,  in the real world Labour members tend to follow the policies agreed on in conference not just a small cabal in the leadership, you seem to think the massive elections majorities were simply these new members who many in here deem as unworthy of being a member, this wasnt the case many very experienced  Labour members voted for Corbyn twice as it happens if that not democracy what is and still support the policies the leadership and the party voted for ? 

Such was and seemingly still is the dirth of talent in the Right and Centre right of this party.

You cannot blame Corbyn for being the only candidate who could attract new and old members such was the lack lustre performance of the other three. However you have not really respecting democracy is it.

What i find laughable is you all talk about democracy but for many in here it's just democracy when it suits, from the day Corbyn got democratically elected the first time people in here and in the PLP and Media have openly criticised him as a person, sticking the knife in on a daily basis,  not his policies though in the main excluding Brexit.

Many latch on to any spurious tit bits,  false facts, gossip in any right wing press coverage and embelished it to the umpteeth degree to make more of it than it originally merited.

 This actually make the criticisms that are merited quite meaningless at times to me in a boy cried wolf scenario.
 
You are simply and always have been royally pissed off because the legacy from Blair ceased to continue and for you a case of  god help us a lefty got in for once.

  What the present leadership is doing is actually the same way of working as previous Labour leaders with their close friends in prominant positions for example Milne = Campbell seems to have the same influence no more and certainly no less. Much maligned Barry Gardiner as much a one track hot head as Mandelson for example.  I guess it was alright then though for a small group to propel us using lies into a war that we did not have to take part in.

As for the other banal comment  'We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’

yes the referendum might be called rigged but if or until that is legally challenged and admitted technically we needed to abide by the outcome, however if this situation alters and a court makes the result null & void  then you can say we do not regonise the result and go for a new referendum.

I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

I sadly believe should the leadership state today we have had a rethink and nevermind going for a GE we are now soilidly behind a new referendum/peoples vote some of you will find a way to slag that off as well its sadly in the Rawk DNA these days in my opinion.

 That alone makes me so sad about this place.

[classycarra]

I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

I sadly believe should the leadership state today we have had a rethink and nevermind going for a GE we are now soilidly behind a new referendum/peoples vote some of you will find a way to slag that off as well its sadly in the Rawk DNA these days in my opinion.

 That alone makes me so sad about this place.

Really daft conclusions there Geoff, especially the penultimate paragraph. Just poor analysis all round

[Mutton Geoff]

Really daft conclusions there Geoff, especially the penultimate paragraph. Just poor analysis all round

Too many home truths for you?

[Sangria]

Is this the latest effort at excusing the leadership from ignoring the conference decision? BTW, Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article the morning of the referendum result. What studies did he have on the proportion of Leave voting constituencies when he did that?

[Devon Red]

I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.