Poll

Tory Christmas Party

Nothing like a good old knees up!
They should apologise and come clean
Johnson should resign
The front bench should resign
The entire party should resign
The entire party should be put in an Elon Musk rocket and fired off to jupiter with 2 packets of hula hoops and a pot noodle
I LOVE cheese!

Author Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!  (Read 1165062 times)

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #240 on: December 4, 2019, 03:54:05 pm »
Do you not think that the lack of critical thinking is pretty universal across the country?

God knows we've had enough examples of people being manipulated by fake news/conspiracy theories/clear malicious falsehoods in here to know that it isn't just people who vote tory who get manipulated. Some people are ok with that 'for the greater good' - in a similar way to someone wishing economic crisis on the country to help get the 'greater good' party in.

I think these are quite useful examples along the lines of what Robinred and others have been getting at. Rather than polarising groups, and then building an artificial barrier that makes it harder to understand people who act differently, it's better to try to understand everyone (including those that make decisions we find reprehensible).

Im in agreement with the sentiment of your post hence asking has he asked them to explain their thought processes. I'd like to hear their responses to try and better undrstand their viewpoint.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #241 on: December 4, 2019, 03:56:56 pm »
Interesting looking at the favourability trackers, Swinson has had a pretty awful campaign, and Johnson has slid back a bit, but the big blow for Labour (unless something changes dramatically) is likely to be that we have seen the big recovery in Corbyn's ratings that we saw during the 2017 campaign.




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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #242 on: December 4, 2019, 04:01:25 pm »
I don't really see how you can argue they are not linked - if the government chooses to spend £30billion on returning money to graduates, including the riches among them, then logically that is £30 billion pounds from the budget that can't be spent on programmes that narrow inequality as opposed to widen it.

Not to disagree with your general point here but that £30bn is extra money working its way through the economy that is otherwise tied up indebt so there will be economic benefit and extra tax revenue caused by it - the net loss to the budget will be less than £30bn (Don't ask me numbers on that!)

Offline classycarra

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #243 on: December 4, 2019, 04:02:15 pm »
1) Bliar and NuLabour followed a broadly 'centre-right' macro-economic policy, certainly when it came to taxation, as well as a free-market capitalism approach and deregulation. As they posed no threat to the plutocrats who largely own and control the majority of the media, they were 'kind' eneough not to run a hatchet-job propaganda campaign against him and the NuLabour party

Absurd claim, but probably a tacit compliment to that governments ability to manage their messaging and their communication via their Strategic Communications Unit.

I guess you don't remember the made up claims of prisoner abuse in Iraq (by left leaning Daily Mirror no less)? Or, on the topic of Iraq, the many accusations against Blair the individual as well as the government which proved unfounded after the Chilcot inquiry was published?

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #244 on: December 4, 2019, 04:04:15 pm »
I can’t explain it. Like you (I assume) I’m a lifelong Labour supporter. And we’ve had many, sometimes heated, discussions about issues where there’s a fundamental and deep-rooted difference of opinion. I would add that there are many issues where we do see eye to eye. Most of all I would hate that our friendship is destroyed by only focusing on our differences.

You are effectively begging the question with the ‘given’ that a) they are being manipulated and b) they lack critical thinking. They would doubtless turn the tables on you by claiming precisely the same of you - given that you are a socialist. It’s the nature of circular argument.

But if we as a country are to have any hope of returning political life to ‘normal’, and heal the rifts that populist demagoguery have cleaved, we must recognise that those values we share are not the exclusive domain of one side of a divide.

I'm not from the UK but I am interested in all things political, If I was in the UK I would be a Labour supporter. Sorry if my tone was a bit confrontational to begin with, I was genuinely interested in hearing the reasoning behind why your friends had voted tory in the past. I'm all for healing rifts though and am trying to expand my horizons and understand better the basis of viewpoints contrary to my own.
« Last Edit: December 4, 2019, 04:12:13 pm by FlashGordon »
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #245 on: December 4, 2019, 04:05:58 pm »
Not to disagree with your general point here but that £30bn is extra money working its way through the economy that is otherwise tied up indebt so there will be economic benefit and extra tax revenue caused by it - the net loss to the budget will be less than £30bn (Don't ask me numbers on that!)
Appreciate you trying to bring more clarity to my point. I tried to phrase it in a way that covered this, by talking only about the budget (rather than the wider economy). ie it's £30 billion taken up in the budget, but not that it's £30billion disappearing from the economy. Because you're spot on obviously.

There would be some proportion of that figure that had some benifit - though bear in mind that richer families anecdotally tend to be far more succesful at avoiding tax so, in my opinion, those benefits would again disproportionately favour the richer among the recipients.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #246 on: December 4, 2019, 04:07:29 pm »
Im in agreement with the sentiment of your post hence asking has he asked them to explain their thought processes. I'd like to hear their responses to try and better undrstand their viewpoint.

Yeah sorry I didn't intend it to read adversarially, and I expect we agree, it was more me just quoting a post trying to continue the conversation

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #247 on: December 4, 2019, 04:11:27 pm »
The thing is, most people don't "see" billionaires, corporate CEOs, tax dodgers and right wing think tank gurus in their daily lives. What they do see of them, of course, is the publicly sanitised version - philanthropy, reasonable sounding arguments about economic growth and fiscal responsibility, 'wealth creation'. They don't see the person leaving home at 6am and returning at 9pm has done three jobs in that time either, or the day to day grinding detail of most people's real lives.

Most people do, however, see glimpses of people who are 'scroungers', who have made bad life choices, lead chaotic lifestyles and - to an extent - are the architects of their own downfall. They see the town they grew up in become poorer, dirtier, less well maintained, with fewer public services, with young people unable to afford housing. And they see more brown people and hear more foreign voices and read about stretched public services. They don't see the tax havens and bank accounts of those using them.

So when the Mail talks about immigration destroying British society and overwhelming public services - that actually better fits what people see for themselves everyday, because the real causes are more abstract, or hidden from view.

This is heading back to the critical thinking aspect of the discussion. People need to ask themselves why these people are 'scroungers' rather than be spoon fed bullshit from a right wing press.

Are they 'scroungers' due to a lack of early education funding, poor employment oppurtunities etc.

I suppose my point is instead of pointing the finger at those around them or slightly below turn their attention to those in power or others that control the narrative .
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #248 on: December 4, 2019, 04:13:16 pm »
Yeah sorry I didn't intend it to read adversarially, and I expect we agree, it was more me just quoting a post trying to continue the conversation

Yes, good to clear that up anyway.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline redmark

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #249 on: December 4, 2019, 04:37:17 pm »
This is heading back to the critical thinking aspect of the discussion. People need to ask themselves why these people are 'scroungers' rather than be spoon fed bullshit from a right wing press.

Are they 'scroungers' due to a lack of early education funding, poor employment oppurtunities etc.

I suppose my point is instead of pointing the finger at those around them or slightly below turn their attention to those in power or others that control the narrative .
Pointing the finger at those around them is easier, to a degree, more logical, and much more realistic.

It might be nice if everyone exercised critical thinking, but it's not realistic. Many people don't have the time, the inclination, the resources or the ability. And it's not actually their job. It's the job of political leadership to offer a coherent, simple narrative that people can relate to.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #250 on: December 4, 2019, 04:42:19 pm »
New Statesman saying Corbyn is unfit to lead the country.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #251 on: December 4, 2019, 04:45:49 pm »
New Statesman saying Corbyn is unfit to lead the country.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #252 on: December 4, 2019, 05:05:54 pm »
Brilliant review of where we are at by New Statesman....

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/election-2019/2019/12/leader-britain-deserves-better

ELECTION 2019 4 DECEMBER 2019
Leader: Britain deserves better
On the eve of a new decade, there is an acute need for an alternative political and economic settlement that no party at present represents

BY NEW STATESMAN
This general election has been described as the most pivotal since Margaret Thatcher’s victory in 1979 heralded the new right’s counter-revolution against the postwar consensus. If the Conservatives win a comfortable majority on 12 December, Britain will leave the European Union and Remainers campaigning for a second referendum will have been defeated. The Labour Party is likely to be immersed in another civil war as the Corbynites seek to maintain control. Beyond Westminster, the United Kingdom, already a fragile multinational construct, will be roiled by a succession of constitutional crises.

For such a defining election, the campaign has revealed the dismal state of our hyperpartisan media-political culture. Both main party leaders are profoundly unpopular (as revealed by their personal poll ratings) and their moral integrity has been compromised by their past actions and associations. Many voters despair at the choice before them.

It has been Britain’s misfortune, at such a conjuncture, to be led by Mr Johnson. Throughout his media and political careers, he has been revealed as a huckster and populist manipulator, and yet he is impervious to personal criticism and seems able to reach out to voters beyond his class politics.


Mr Johnson has often been underestimated in a long career as a flamboyant controversialist. He has no coherent politics or consistent world-view and is driven by monstrous ambition. As a biographer of Winston Churchill, he believes in the great man theory of history. And now he has the job he always wanted – and the joke is on us.

In office, Mr Johnson has transformed the Conservative Party from a broad church into a Leave sect by removing the whip from 21 Tory MPs, including nine former cabinet ministers. He unlawfully prorogued parliament in a shameless attempt to deny MPs the right to debate Brexit. And he dismissed concerns over his inflammatory language – three years after the murder of the MP Jo Cox – as “humbug”.

The supposed “party of the economy” is now pursuing a Brexit deal that the government’s own forecasts suggest will reduce growth by as much as 6.7 per cent of GDP (£130bn) between 2020 and 2034, leaving the average person £2,250 a year poorer. The supposed “party of the Union” is now proposing to establish a new border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.


Mr Johnson’s repeated insistence that a Conservative government will “get Brexit done” should deceive nobody. His vow to achieve a comprehensive new trade deal with the EU by December 2020 is unachievable. Either the UK will sign an inadequate agreement, or none at all, or it will be forced to seek an extension (the average trade negotiation lasts at least four years). This is the truth of the matter.

***

Under Mr Johnson, the Conservatives have belatedly abandoned austerity by vowing to end all cuts to public services and to borrow for investment. This shift should be welcomed. As we have argued since the former chancellor George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford first declared an “age of austerity” in 2009, the government’s programme of cuts has been self-defeating and socially destructive. Austerity has enfeebled the public realm and sowed economic and social discontent.


The slowest economic recovery in history has been accompanied by a 169 per cent rise in rough sleeping, record levels of in-work poverty and ever-higher food bank usage (823,145 parcels were distributed by the Trussell Trust between April and September this year).

Having long publicly supported austerity, Mr Johnson now insists that he privately argued that it was “not the right way forward”. Just as Mr Osborne’s Keynesian opponents once did, Conservative ministers now say that the state can afford to borrow at ultra-low interest rates. But the government’s shift should not be overstated. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned, even by 2023-24, day-to-day spending on public services outside health will still be almost 15 per cent lower in real terms than it was at the start of the 2010s. It would be a travesty if, after a decade of destructive austerity, the Conservatives were rewarded with another majority.

Mr Johnson’s partial embrace of big government owes more to opportunism than to any principled commitment to the protective state: he will say and do whatever is necessary, especially as the Conservatives are intent on winning seats in Labour’s Brexit-voting heartlands. But his politics is one of oligarchy and demagogy.

The Conservatives’ weaknesses and divisions have presented Labour with a huge electoral opportunity. In 2017, Jeremy Corbyn was dismissed as a doomed opposition leader. During this campaign, he has been scrutinised as a potential prime minister.

Mr Corbyn’s election as Labour leader in 2015 unlocked something long repressed on the left. Here was a politician, first elected as an MP in 1983, who came from the fringes of the parliamentary party having spent his career pursuing radical causes. Most of his colleagues dismissed him as a crank. And yet he unequivocally rejected neoliberalism and austerity and spoke a language of principle that many young people had not heard before from a mainstream politician. He inspired a movement – Corbynism – and membership of the Labour Party surged to 564,443 before falling back to 485,000 owing to the leadership’s ambiguous position on Brexit. In 2017, Mr Corbyn’s campaign deprived the Conservatives of their hard-won majority. And as shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, Mr Corbyn’s long-time ally who is interviewed in this week’s magazine, has rightly challenged the orthodoxy that the private sector is inherently superior to the state.

Labour deserves credit for offering a deeply divided and unequal country a bold manifesto. Proposals such as a Green Industrial Revolution, opposing Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s prospective US trade deal and nationalising broadband, the railways and water companies are worthy of serious consideration. They represent ambition and creativity of a kind that has all too often been absent from British politics.


Labour has rightly chipped away at the edifice of “capitalist realism”, the term the late cultural theorist Mark Fisher used to describe the sense that “not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system… it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it”.

But the essential judgement that must be made is on Mr Corbyn himself. His reluctance to apologise for the anti-Semitism in Labour and to take a stance on Brexit, the biggest issue facing the country, make him unfit to be prime minister.

In response to anti-Semitism, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, a body established by the last Labour government, has launched a formal investigation of a political party for only the second time in its history (the first being the fascist British National Party). The chief rabbi, Ephraim Mirvis, and the Jewish Chronicle have issued unprecedented warnings about Mr Corbyn to the electorate. The Jewish Labour Movement, for the first time in its history, has refused to endorse the party and will only campaign for “exceptional candidates”.


***

We have no reason to quarrel with their judgement. As Anthony Julius, a senior lawyer and academic, wrote to the historian Richard Evans in an open letter on the New Statesman: “A party that cannot be trusted in relation to Jews cannot be trusted at all.” (Professor Evans subsequently retracted his support for Labour.)

Faced with an unpalatable choice between Mr Johnson or Mr Corbyn as prime minister, some maintain that there is a third way: the Liberal Democrats. But under new leader Jo Swinson, the party has had an uninspiring campaign. Its vow to cancel Brexit by revoking Article 50 has rightly been rejected by even Remainers as illiberal and undemocratic. And though presented with a rare electoral opening, the party of Gladstone, Lloyd George, Keynes and Beveridge has shown little intellectual ambition or dynamism.

By contrast, the Green Party’s 34-year campaign to alert the British electorate to the crises of climate change and environmental devastation now appears prescient. While the party itself is not in a position to govern, the climate crisis will become the defining issue in global politics in the near future and we would welcome more Green MPs.

Yet for the reasons outlined, we have resolved to endorse no party at this general election. As a publication that is beholden to no party or faction, that defends the intellectual traditions of scepticism, independence of thought, the spirit of criticism and a willingness to debate, we believe that voters deserve better.

However, we are not without hope of meaningful change and urge all our readers to vote, tactically if necessary, to deprive Mr Johnson’s hard Brexit Conservatives of a majority. There are many fine parliamentarians from all parties – Luciana Berger, Joanna Cherry, Jess Phillips, Rosie Duffield, Jim McMahon, Dan Jarvis, Sarah Wollaston, Rachel Reeves, to name only a few – whose fortitude and resilience are admirable. And this at a time when MPs, especially women, are subjected to the most appalling intimidation and abuse. Readers should judge their local candidate on his or her merits and commitment to social reforms, to green public investment, to civic values and to progressive politics.

***


On the eve of a new decade, there is an acute need for an alternative political and economic settlement that no party at present adequately represents. Moments of national renewal are never smooth or painless. The first step is to accept the new paradigm, which is the end of the Blairite/Cameroon version of liberal capitalism. After a decade of austerity, the state is returning to its primary function, which is the provision of security, as the philosopher John Gray has written in these pages. We believe in an interventionist, even moral state; in the efficacy and compensatory functions of the state to protect especially the most vulnerable against the damage inflicted on societies by free markets and globalisation. This should be complemented by the renewal of civil society and the intermediary institutions that lie between the market and the state: family networks, friendly societies, cooperatives and religious and charitable bodies.

The Brexit debacle has demonstrated the need to reform the United Kingdom’s anachronistic constitutional model. A new settlement should encompass the replacement of the House of Lords, a more proportional voting system and even a written constitution. If the Union is to survive it must be reconfigured and new relationships established among the nations and regions of these islands. In a new era of great power blocs, Britain must have a “realist” foreign policy. It should combine a clear-eyed defence of the national interest with a desire to remain within the European sphere of influence, while also defending and renewing the multilateral, rules-based order.

Perhaps, above all, a new politics for the 2020s must cultivate a civic patriotism that is inclusive and generous, rather than sour and resentful, and that reaffirms the value of the common good. Decency, pragmatism, humility, reciprocity, environmentalism, social responsibility, social justice and the protective state – these should be the values that shape the new political dispensation. The election will not open the way for this alternative settlement. But it has confirmed the profound need for it as an era comes to an end.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #253 on: December 4, 2019, 05:15:11 pm »
It's hard to tell if you're cherry picking and acting in bad faith, or have just done it by accidental bias and don't realise that you're omitting key pieces of information that dilute your argument significantly.

My argument is that not saddling students with debt can only be a positive. I see nothing in the links you posted to dilute that.

No, it highlights that both that and the cutting of fees are detrimental. Here's what it says:

"The research by Lucy Hunter Blackburn, a former civil servant with the Scottish government, estimates that free university tuition and the cuts in grants to lower-earning students means middle-class families and students will be £20m a year better."

You've cut that out to look at only one thing (cutting grants) because cutting fees logically feels as if it's helping, when it's not. The researcher addresses that perspective directly:

"Free tuition in Scotland is the perfect middle-class, feel-good policy," Hunter Blackburn said. "It's superficially universal, but in fact it benefits the better-off most, and is funded by pushing the poorest students further and further into debt."

Yes, they will be better off because they will only be paying for maintenance costs & not tuition fees, leaving them with less expense than otherwise which equates to the £20m figure you're utilising.

This is relative to the poor student who is already poor. Cancelling tuition fees does not make them any more poor. Hunter Blackburn is arguing that more should be done alongside not charging tuition fees to benefit the less well off - the argument is it's not enough, rather than it's too much.


I assume you agree with me that (given resources are finite) the state having more in the coffers to fund public services and, for example, provide grants would benefit poorer students? That's part of why receiving less money from richer students' families is also a burden on poorer families, rather than solely being a benefit for the rich.

I'll repeat your question back about reading the second study. Did you miss this finding?:
"The repayments from the highest-earning graduates (those earning more than around £100,000 a year on average, over their lifetime) would fall by 67% from £93,000 to £30,000, while the lowest-earning would benefit very little."

Again - as we're both aiming to improve things for poorer students - I'm sure we'd agree that it would be better for them if the state received the average £63,000 per graduate on over a 100k salary right?

And funding the return of fees to the £9k fees students in England alone would cost the government £30billion - is that better for poorer families than better funding local public health?

Yes, repayments from highest earning graduates would fall as they would no longer be in debt. Their families would not be charged anything. Families don't pay student loans - students do. Also, repayments do not contribute to public coffers - this is not a tax. They are used to service the student loan sinkhole that the government currently has running. Most of the current repayments barely scrape the barrel on the interest being charged on initial loans.

re: 'resources are finite' sums. You're building a straw man that you can have one but not both. Not telling me why it's actually a negative for those involved.

'Yeah mate, you can have a mouth but you can't have an arsehole. Choose one'.

Report also hypothesises that the increasing numbers of students, without a cap on student numbers, could lead to university resources being more stretched and therefore less budget-per-student - that would be another negative for poorer students, who are already unequally more burdened than their richer counterparts.
I only gave that link for context to the two pieces of research, aware it's a comment piece (albeit linking to interesting evidence).

Some form of cap could be placed on student numbers. With the rise of ex-polytechnics which do not ensure the same career prospects as the better universities yet charge the same fees - some form of action is needed. This is a separate conversation.

I don't really see how you can argue they are not linked - if the government chooses to spend £30billion on returning money to graduates, including the riches among them, then logically that is £30 billion pounds from the budget that can't be spent on programmes that narrow inequality as opposed to widen it. The early years focus is a great suggestion, because as we know from the evidence if you intervene in inequality at an earlier age you tend to have a greater and more lasting effect. Instead of subsidising all graduates, and not just those from poorer families, I'd prioritise speding my resources following the public health evidence base and try to ensure that first and foremost there are fewer poorer families and secondly that the effects of being born into a poorer family are better offset by a well resourced welfare state

It's something that could even have cross party support. Even the more callous among us tend to be swayed if not from a human argument than by the evidenced economic argument that there's a better return on investment in investment in early years programmes. And better results lead to a healthier and more productive workforce, and stronger economy.

Your logic is wrong actually. The £30bn isn't real. It's a receivable in the government accounts (that is growing due to interest), of which most will never be received as the majority of student debt will be left unpaid and so will be written off in time. As such, spending on alternatives isn't possible, as it isn't tangible cash -  it's just an accrued asset. All the expenses related to loans continue to be incurred anyway, so writing it off - technically wouldn't actually be spending anything, just an acceptance it will not be received, of which most of it won't even if we continue to recognise the asset.

Intervening in inequality at a young age is something I'd be on board with.

How does that reduction in inequality continue when kids grow up and realise that university - the primary means of entering most higher paid careers or general fields of expertise, is not a realistic option for them? It's building them up only to chop them down. Inequality should be reduced across the board, from primary school all the way through to university.

You still haven't offered a credible argument as to why cancelling tuition fees specifically would be a negative thing, for any student? Your only argument seems to be that the money would be better spent elsewhere, which is a completely different conversation.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #254 on: December 4, 2019, 06:09:40 pm »
The stark choice for the nation then; be fucked  over by Labour incompetence or by Tory design - the choice is yours folks.
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Offline Andy

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #255 on: December 4, 2019, 06:19:25 pm »
The stark choice for the nation then; be fucked  over by Labour incompetence or by Tory design - the choice is yours folks.

Capitalism is all about choice  ;)


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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #256 on: December 4, 2019, 06:20:02 pm »
1) Bliar and NuLabour followed a broadly 'centre-right' macro-economic policy, certainly when it came to taxation, as well as a free-market capitalism approach and deregulation. As they posed no threat to the plutocrats who largely own and control the majority of the media, they were 'kind' eneough not to run a hatchet-job propaganda campaign against him and the NuLabour party



I quite like reading your posts, but in this age of fact checking I think this point is simply incorrect.

It in no way reflects the spending under new labour.  Labour was a redistributive party.

It literally took from the rich and gave to the poor and public services.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn88.pdf

Check out page 18.

It’s important because it diminishes the socialism of the last labour government and the gains it achieved.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #257 on: December 4, 2019, 06:23:07 pm »
https://twitter.com/mailplus_/status/1202166062881607681

Lavery is pretty funny here to be honest, johnson-esque

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #258 on: December 4, 2019, 06:26:51 pm »


BBC News depicts the election as a choice between "radical socialism and getting Brexit done".

Even if that was true, should John Pienaar being saying such a thing?
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #259 on: December 4, 2019, 06:37:00 pm »
My argument is that not saddling students with debt can only be a positive. I see nothing in the links you posted to dilute that.
University students come from the wealthiest backgrounds and earn the most money. Aren’t we saying these people should pay more? Do we really want to give such large tax breaks to the wealthy?  If you don’t earn much you don’t pay it back don’t forget.
Quote
Yes, they will be better off because they will only be paying for maintenance costs & not tuition fees, leaving them with less expense than otherwise which equates to the £20m figure you're utilising.

This is relative to the poor student who is already poor. Cancelling tuition fees does not make them any more poor. Hunter Blackburn is arguing that more should be done alongside not charging tuition fees to benefit the less well off - the argument is it's not enough, rather than it's too much.

Yes, repayments from highest earning graduates would fall as they would no longer be in debt. Their families would not be charged anything. Families don't pay student loans - students do. Also, repayments do not contribute to public coffers - this is not a tax. They are used to service the student loan sinkhole that the government currently has running. Most of the current repayments barely scrape the barrel on the interest being charged on initial loans.
But we’re just pissing money up the wall here.

Why not pay poor students £20k a year to go to university (no tuition fees etc). They could then have no worries about having to work to provide for their families etc. this would be genuinely redistributive, a genuine game changer fior disadvantaged people
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re: 'resources are finite' sums. You're building a straw man that you can have one but not both. Not telling me why it's actually a negative for those involved.

'Yeah mate, you can have a mouth but you can't have an arsehole. Choose one'.

Some form of cap could be placed on student numbers. With the rise of ex-polytechnics which do not ensure the same career prospects as the better universities yet charge the same fees - some form of action is needed. This is a separate conversation.
Do not create the same career prospects? Are you sure about that?  And if you could evidence it, are we to conclude earning more money is the ONLY reason to go to university? That’s very capitalist surely?

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Your logic is wrong actually. The £30bn isn't real. It's a receivable in the government accounts (that is growing due to interest), of which most will never be received as the majority of student debt will be left unpaid and so will be written off in time. As such, spending on alternatives isn't possible, as it isn't tangible cash -  it's just an accrued asset. All the expenses related to loans continue to be incurred anyway, so writing it off - technically wouldn't actually be spending anything, just an acceptance it will not be received, of which most of it won't even if we continue to recognise the asset.

Intervening in inequality at a young age is something I'd be on board with.

How does that reduction in inequality continue when kids grow up and realise that university - the primary means of entering most higher paid careers or general fields of expertise, is not a realistic option for them? It's building them up only to chop them down. Inequality should be reduced across the board, from primary school all the way through to university.

You still haven't offered a credible argument as to why cancelling tuition fees specifically would be a negative thing, for any student? Your only argument seems to be that the money would be better spent elsewhere, which is a completely different conversation.
Because this isn’t about any student.

It’s about a crap use of resources.  We could spend the money more effectively by targeting it people who actually need it rather than dolloping a huge tax break for the middle classes.

I have two kids. If they both did 4 year courses, that’s £72k.  Labour are giving me a £72k tax cut. It’s fucking nuts. It’s enormous.

My thoughts anyway... I’d like tuition to be free, but as a priority? It’s an entirely regressive policy which benefits the wealthy far more than the needy.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #260 on: December 4, 2019, 06:39:48 pm »
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #261 on: December 4, 2019, 07:08:17 pm »
My postal vote arrived today and it's on it's way back to England now.  I don't want to go all tin-foil hat here but for the Brexit referendum I was contacted by Cheshire West and Chester Council and told that there wouldn't be enough time to get a postal vote out to me and back again, and that I could likely only vote by proxy (I didn't know anyone in the area that I trusted enough to vote for me so I ended up not being able to vote).  Why can they manage it for a general election but not for the Brexit referendum, which had a massive impact on people like me living abroad? 

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #262 on: December 4, 2019, 07:58:22 pm »
Ended up getting out of my dilemma on who to vote for by doing a vote swap, Labour gets a vote in Chingford to help get IDS out, LDs get one in Wokingham to help get Redwood out.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #263 on: December 4, 2019, 09:14:15 pm »
Westminster Voting Intention:

CON 42% (-1)
LAB 32% (-1)
LD 12% (-1)
BXP 3 (-1)
SNP 4 (+1)
Grn 2 (-1)

2nd - 3rd Dec
ComRes

(changes from Savanta ComRes/Sunday Telegraph, Nov 30th)

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #264 on: December 4, 2019, 11:17:49 pm »
Another day, another brutal leaders interview by Neill.

This time Swinson.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #265 on: December 4, 2019, 11:34:58 pm »
I have no problem with student fees as they are. If you earn over a certain amount, why shouldn't you contribute a bit extra, not like you can't afford too. Don't work, don't pay. Don't earn enough, don't pay. It's fair.

What I have a problem with, is the lack of support for day to day living expenses. I didn't go to university, but my sister is, and she living in her overdraft, struggling to pay for acomdation, books and trips that are required. Thats what putting working class people off, not having this 'debt'. Middle class people can have their families helping out, that isn't a option for students with families that don't have a pot to piss in.

Restore maintenance grant's and support in my opinion is a cheaper and fairer way to support people who want to have a university education, and redirect the money used for free uni education towards schools, community centres, sure starts, family centres ect...
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #266 on: December 4, 2019, 11:37:49 pm »
Another day, another brutal leaders interview by Neill.

This time Swinson.

The BBC should have interviewed all the party leaders before they released them. Theve fucked up big time if Johnson doesnt do one.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #267 on: December 4, 2019, 11:50:35 pm »
The BBC should have interviewed all the party leaders before they released them. Theve fucked up big time if Johnson doesnt do one.

They should empty chair Johnson. Andrew Neil ask a question, then just turn the camera to the empty chair for 5 mins; then onto the next question. But, of course, as you and others have suggested, the BBC should have interviewed them all first and only aired them on condition that they are participated. I cannot believe the stupidity of Corbyn (and others) not demanding this before they were interviewed.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #268 on: December 5, 2019, 06:15:29 am »
The BBC should have interviewed all the party leaders before they released them. Theve fucked up big time if Johnson doesnt do one.

Maybe the bbc had verbal confirmation from all parties that all would participate, only for the Tories to go back on it.  Wouldn’t be surprising.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #269 on: December 5, 2019, 08:10:26 am »
Maybe the bbc had verbal confirmation from all parties that all would participate, only for the Tories to go back on it.  Wouldn’t be surprising.

And who's surprised?

The BBC should release the details of any antecedent negotiations,

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #270 on: December 5, 2019, 08:38:24 am »
And who's surprised?

The BBC should release the details of any antecedent negotiations,

If the prospective PM is too cowardly to go on a TV show, what does that say about his ability to lead a nation?

There`s a pattern of behaviour from Johnson there and alarm bells should be ringing for those who are actually considering voting for him and his party.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #271 on: December 5, 2019, 08:41:19 am »
If the prospective PM is too cowardly to go on a TV show, what does that say about his ability to lead a nation?

There`s a pattern of behaviour from Johnson there and alarm bells should be ringing for those who are actually considering voting for him and his party.

Dont think those who are going to vote for him give a shit.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #272 on: December 5, 2019, 08:42:43 am »
Dont think those who are going to vote for him give a shit.

They'll probably applaud him for giving a swerve to the Lefty, liberal, cosmopolitan BBC.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #273 on: December 5, 2019, 09:03:30 am »
If the prospective PM is too cowardly to go on a TV show, what does that say about his ability to lead a nation?

There`s a pattern of behaviour from Johnson there and alarm bells should be ringing for those who are actually considering voting for him and his party.

For those engaged in political news, even on a superficial level, may have similar concerns.  Unfortunately most folk aren’t that engaged.  Probably won’t even be aware.  Their only reference points will be coverage of others on mainstream news bulletins being interviewed by Neil.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #274 on: December 5, 2019, 09:09:02 am »
I note the £ appears to be strengthening.  Given how markets operate this may indicate the city expects a Tory majority.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #275 on: December 5, 2019, 09:40:39 am »
I note the £ appears to be strengthening.  Given how markets operate this may indicate the city expects a Tory majority.
That could just be relief that Trump spent two days in London and didn't seriously fuck anything up.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #276 on: December 5, 2019, 09:46:52 am »
They should empty chair Johnson. Andrew Neil ask a question, then just turn the camera to the empty chair for 5 mins; then onto the next question. But, of course, as you and others have suggested, the BBC should have interviewed them all first and only aired them on condition that they are participated. I cannot believe the stupidity of Corbyn (and others) not demanding this before they were interviewed.

Although it never looks good when politicians complain about free air time, especially during an election when theyre trying to appeal to the public.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #277 on: December 5, 2019, 10:12:51 am »
Empty-chairing Johnson would probably appeal to his supporters. After all it proves how anti-establishment he is, not playing into their hands etc etc. He's a roit charicter oyn't he (that was brummy, by the way).
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #278 on: December 5, 2019, 10:36:10 am »
I read it as Dick van Dyke.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #279 on: December 5, 2019, 10:48:51 am »
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