Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[zero zero]

Do they honestly think it's going to improve?

There's plenty of room for improvement, as I pointed out above. I believe that the points from Wolves (which I agree with) were the opening salvo in a negotiation for better standards and accountability.

It's a sunk cost fallacy at this point until PGMOL is destroyed in its current form.

Whereas this is fucking realistic.

They should try reading the room and factor in the fans for once.

Which fans? As this thread has demonstrated over the last few pages there's no consensus amongst the fans.

[JRed]

Do they honestly think it's going to improve? It's a sunk cost fallacy at this point until PGMOL is destroyed in its current form.

They should try reading the room and factor in the fans for once.

It’s like you’re arguing for both sides. You’re saying get rid of VAR and let the refs do their job, then saying the refs are shit.
WTF do you think these refs are going to do when they know none of their decisions will be looked at? They already have the balls to screw us over now, knowing that VAR will have to look at it.

I get the point that we can celebrate goals straight away again, and that’s a valid point. But getting rid of VAR now would unleash the officials rage at being questioned and it would be carnage.

Read the room? What fucking room are you in?

[spider-neil]

VAR and the ref association should be completely different entities. Also, VAR should be on a contract basis so if company with the contract fucks up the contract can be given to someone else.

[vblfc]

They have. They just understand it’s not the system at fault but the people using it.

I would go one step deeper/farther on that. It’s actually the accountability and integrity model around those using it. The whole VAR protocol has been abused by PGMOL into to an accountability avoidance model where the VAR referees must be seen to support the onfield decisions and vice versa.
Part of accountability and integrity is being able to say when you made a mistake (when you are wrong, say you are wrong). Currently the refs and VAR constantly try to use the clear and obvious nonsense to give decision in a manner they think will maintain an image of their control. Then, when they clearly get it wrong, they are all forced into a double down, gaslit spin, which constantly erodes accountability and integrity.
Much better to have a proper accountability gap between onfield ref and VAR to enable an overturn of decisions in fast/real time. On field ref can still make the final call.  It is ok for VAR and ref to disagree and to overturn decisions based on video evidence.
The current model just shines a light on their errors and erodes everyones integrity. It would be quite simple to fix a lot of it.

[Fromola]

It’s like you’re arguing for both sides. You’re saying get rid of VAR and let the refs do their job, then saying the refs are shit.

The worse the refs are then the worse the VAR will be with those same refs using it. Nothing is going to change next season. Webb will streamline it which will not change any of the real issues with it.

PGMOL is the issue and the way its run and the shit referees, but that only makes VAR all the more unusable.

WTF do you think these refs are going to do when they know none of their decisions will be looked at? They already have the balls to screw us over now, knowing that VAR will have to look at it.

We've been as screwed over by VAR as we have with with the refs on the pitch and when the ref has screwed us, VAR has mostly failed to overturn it.

I hate the fact you can't celebrate goals now (honestly what is the point of football without that?), but at least if you had the trade off with decisions like Doku/Odegaard/other blatant pens/Mac Allister sending off, Van Dijk sending off were actually overturned - but they aren't. And you get several other bad ones from VAR on top (league cup final, Burnley away, Jones red card at Spurs stitch up, several dreadful VAR decisions against us in Europa League).

[Crosby Nick]

Kavanagh gets a chance to say goodbye to Jurgen on Sunday. They also saved the best for last with Coote on VAR.

They say these things even themselves out…Wolves have been repeatedly fucked over by VAR this season too so Sunday could be a bit mad.

[BoRed]

They say these things even themselves out…Wolves have been repeatedly fucked over by VAR this season too so Sunday could be a bit mad.

Given what they've done to us this season, I can't see it evening out for both teams.

The game is a dead rubber, though, so the only meaningful thing they can do is hand out a load of red cards to ensure both teams have players suspended at the start of next season.

[capt k]

Not a chance.

With VAR binned, the match officials will come under more scrutiny to get their calls correctly. If they don't the media aren't going away. They'll be analyzing everything and pointing out the errors.

Im not sure how you came to this conclusion. The media have been absolutley complicit in the shit storm we have witnessed all year.. from the Diaz no goal  media{pundit}reaction mid game to the orchestrated silencing of any questions 2 hours later.. the media{in general} are TOLD what to say. none of these pricks are going to have their noses removed from the money trough, so they keep their head down.. you know the worlds on its head when the likes of Goldberg broach the subject, yet Spit and Rat boy say fuck all

[red1977]

The worse the refs are then the worse the VAR will be with those same refs using it. Nothing is going to change next season. Webb will streamline it which will not change any of the real issues with it.

PGMOL is the issue and the way its run and the shit referees, but that only makes VAR all the more unusable.

We've been as screwed over by VAR as we have with with the refs on the pitch and when the ref has screwed us, VAR has mostly failed to overturn it.

I hate the fact you can't celebrate goals now (honestly what is the point of football without that?), but at least if you had the trade off with decisions like Doku/Odegaard/other blatant pens/Mac Allister sending off, Van Dijk sending off were actually overturned - but they aren't. And you get several other bad ones from VAR on top (league cup final, Burnley away, Jones red card at Spurs stitch up, several dreadful VAR decisions against us in Europa League).

Some people didnt think Docu's high boot was a penalty (It was). But not having rules black and white causes divide. For example if a boot touches a chest, deliberate or not its a foul. No divide then. But instead we get, it's a coming together, Docu is looking at the ball and doesn't see MacAlister and on and on. The rules allow subjectivity. VAR is just another look, the subjectivity remains. Are rules really rules if no one can agree on what said rule is?

[Fromola]

Im not sure how you came to this conclusion. The media have been absolutley complicit in the shit storm we have witnessed all year.. from the Diaz no goal  media{pundit}reaction mid game to the orchestrated silencing of any questions 2 hours later.. the media{in general} are TOLD what to say. none of these pricks are going to have their noses removed from the money trough, so they keep their head down.. you know the worlds on its head when the likes of Goldberg broach the subject, yet Spit and Rat boy say fuck all

They just parrot whatever the PL/Sky/PGMOL want them to. Silent on this but went nuclear over ESL (for their paymasters) and Neville is never usually short of an opinion.

Some people didnt think Docu's high boot was a penalty (It was). But not having rules black and white causes divide. For example if a boot touches a chest, deliberate or not its a foul. No divide then. But instead we get, it's a coming together, Docu is looking at the ball and doesn't see MacAlister and on and on. The rules allow subjectivity. VAR is just another look, the subjectivity remains. Are rules really rules if no one can agree on what said rule is?

VAR hides behind subjectivity to justify decisions and refs operating it can therefore manipulate it. It shouldn't be used for subjective decisions anyway but while pens are within its remit, Doku is a clear pen.

[Schmidt]

VAR and the ref association should be completely different entities. Also, VAR should be on a contract basis so if company with the contract fucks up the contract can be given to someone else.

IMO there should be three bodies.

Oversight - Not comprised of current/ex officials. They should be responsible for adjusting the rules as required, judging the performances of the groups below them and generally managing everything related to rule enforcement. This group tells the separate VAR/official groups how to execute rules, rather than the VAR's and officials working together.

VAR - A different group with different training for a different skillset. If they see a mistake they tell the referee to review it on the monitor, or just overturn it if it's egregious enough. They report directly to the oversight group. If a referee makes a mistake and the VAR doesn't catch it, the VAR takes the blame. If the VAR recommends the referee review it and the referee sticks with the original mistake, the referee takes the blame.

Officials - Their only roles are referee, linesman and 4th official. They're judged both on the frequency that VAR needs to overrule them and the frequency with which they incorrectly stick with their original decisions. Frequent enough mistakes lead to increasing punishments, such as demotion from the big games, demotion to the EFL and just outright being fired.

Additionally, all audio between officials should be released after every round of fixtures and all per-match performance reviews should be public. Officials should not be allowed to officiate matches for other countries/organisations on the side, and officials shouldn't get to officiate local teams even if they don't claim to support them.

[capt k]

They just parrot whatever the PL/Sky/PGMOL want them to. Silent on this but went nuclear over ESL (for their paymasters) and Neville is never usually short of an opinion.

VAR hides behind subjectivity to justify decisions and refs operating it can therefore manipulate it. It shouldn't be used for subjective decisions anyway but while pens are within its remit, Doku is a clear pen.

oh i know, hence me mentioning their snouts in the trough., what i cant get my head around is the fact var can see an obvious offence, but its not in their remit to action on it.. i personally like the "idea" of VAR, but i hate the way its implemented.. its the same as watching any corrupt organisation, they will twist and turn the facts so their work mate isnt called out for obvious misuse/abuse of power

[red1977]

This was disgusting.

There needs to be a full review of the rules to a point where things like this cant be explained away and got away with.

[ArcticRed]

How about they start with voting on whether to keep PGMOL next year. Eliminate the biggest problem first. Who knows... even VAR might work near flawlessly if put in capable hands rather than given to monkeys.

[DelTrotter]

Jurgs "these people are not able to use it properly" sums it up nicely. Said as it is he'd vote for scrapping it.

[Fromola]

This was disgusting.

There needs to be a full review of the rules to a point where things like this cant be explained away and got away with.

United had been battered in their first two games. That put them 1-0 up and they won that game which turned their season. Although we'd started slow anyway our season never recovered from that game, whereas a win would have gave us more momentum. I think it was our first league defeat in 9 months.

[RyanBabel19]

Klopp said the same as many of us on here to be honest

[Fromola]

Jurgs "these people are not able to use it properly" sums it up nicely. Said as it is he'd vote for scrapping it.

"These people [PGMOL] are not able to use it properly, we can't change the people obviously that's clear, so yeah I would [vote to scrap].

Exactly. Whether you're for or against VAR, it can't work in the PL with the people using it and the way they use it, so there's no point having it because those same people will be using it next season. And we all know the refs will be bad anyway if they don't have it.

It's far less of a shitshow in the CL, in general.

[Crosby Nick]

United had been battered in their first two games. That put them 1-0 up and they won that game which turned their season. Although we'd started slow anyway our season never recovered from that game, whereas a win would have gave us more momentum. I think it was our first league defeat in 9 months.

They were one up through Sancho. That made it 2-0 which possibly made it easier to give as it wasn’t seen as so decisive. Even though we got our act together and finished strong so no reason to think we couldn’t have made it 1-1 had that not been given.

[oojason]

'Liverpool manager Klopp would 'vote for scrapping VAR'' - short video clip from Sky (in Klopp's press conference vs Wolves):-

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7xd5BoNTQl8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7xd5BoNTQl8</a>

^ or click here to watch - www.youtube.com/v/7xd5BoNTQl8


"I don't think they're voting against VAR, I think they'll vote about how it gets used, because that's definitely not right. I understand that.

"In the way they do it, I would vote against it, because these people are not able to use it properly.

"I do not think VAR is the problem but the way we use it is the problem. So, you cannot change the people obviously, it's clear. You need them. So yeah, I would vote for scrapping VAR."



Full press conference here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FIPBbVM7Bo (from LFC)

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The only way that football can be saved is to fucking sack PGMOL

They are a gang of amateur fucking wankers with zero ability.

The Premier League has billions of quid invested into it. There should be an elite school training the best of the best and the idea and the aim should be to get the correct decision every time.

These c*nts get it wrong in every fucking single game. Forget corruption or bias. The aim should be to get the correct decision. The fact that they don't so often with every tool they have is a fucking joke and enough of an excuse to sack the useless bastards right there. Right now.

[A-Bomb]

The only way that football can be saved is to fucking sack PGMOL

They are a gang of amateur fucking wankers with zero ability.

The Premier League has billions of quid invested into it. There should be an elite school training the best of the best and the idea and the aim should be to get the correct decision every time.

These c*nts get it wrong in every fucking single game. Forget corruption or bias. The aim should be to get the correct decision. The fact that they don't so often with every tool they have is a fucking joke and enough of an excuse to sack the useless bastards right there. Right now.

So you're a fan then Andy 

You're right though for all the money swilling around the game, there really is no excuse not to have a credible body of refs with top class training infrastructure that drives meritocracy so the best rise to the top, with complete transparency in ALL aspects of their activities.

[nayia2002]

I'm surprised no one has realised that VAR has given them c*nt refs the power to manipulate the game/result of matches.
They know they can "hide" behind var now as we witness it week in week out