Author Topic: we still arent good enough yet.  (Read 2331 times)

Offline KOTP

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we still arent good enough yet.
« on: April 10, 2002, 08:40:11 pm »
Last nights result proved that we arent quite good enough yet as a team to compete with the best in Europe.

Leverkusen passed the arses off us during both legs but last night unlike in the first leg they created chances. Our midfield and current full backs just arent good enough at the top level.

Carragher, Xavier, Murphy and Smicer are the main ones that need replacing. Im not slagging these players off as they are good players and can compete at Premiership level against most teams but against the best players in Europe and the World they just arent up to it.

Carragher hasnt been ripped to pieces much this season but when he has its been done by a proper winger with pace, Jamie probably is still having nightmares about when he had to face Overmars and Pires! Xavier again like Carragher Im not saying we should sell them as they are good players to have in our squad but they arent top quality players at the top level.

I think everyone already knows what I think about Murphy as Ive said it often enough that he is again a decent squad player to have but should not be considered a first team regular.

For next season we need to buy two proper wingers to play alongside Hamman and Gerrard in midfield and we also need to invest in another Hamman type player in midfield for when he is out injured and also so that we can rest him, as last night showed he did look tired and in need of a rest.

Smicer again is to inconsistent you never know what you are going to get from him hell either look World Class or Conference Class but unfortunately for him the majority of his games are played at Conference level and he will only put in a World Class player on occasions.

Leverkusen won the game from midfield last night. They had better ball players in midfield who looked comfortable when in possession and when they had it instead of always looking for the killer ball like we do to often they just played a simple game of keep ball and waited for the opportunity to come to play the killer ball and didnt try and force it like we do.

Our priority this pre season should be to bring in 2 quality wingers, we have the quality full backs already in Vignal and Babbel but unfortunately they have been injured for most of this season.

Last night was a disappointment but it just showed for me that although we have come a long way under Houllier we still have a bit more to do.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2002, 09:17:14 pm by king_of_the_paddock »

Offline GavBelfast

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2002, 09:23:20 pm »
I agree with the last paragraph, but it was obscured by a lot of the stuff that you wrote before it.

We lost because the other team played better over the two legs, we didn't take our chances, too many players had an off night, and the manager made two blunders with the Hamann substitution (taking Hamann off in itself at the time that he did, and who he replaced him with).

We'll get over it.

PS. For to be supporting a team that's done so well and won so much in recent years, good to see that the Mancs are STILL obsessed with us.  I've lost count of the number of renditions of "are you watching ...." during tonight's game.  Wankers all.

Offline Eli_B (aka Badland Red)

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2002, 09:25:32 pm »
Gav....

The Mancs will arrogantly assume that they'll get to the final and win the Champions League. And that's before they even play Leverkusen in the Semi-finals!!  >:(
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Offline Andy

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2002, 09:29:22 pm »
bayer are more than good enough to beat the Manc wankers, and i wish them all the best. bayer vs bayern in the final?

Offline daddymac

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2002, 09:45:27 pm »
King of the paddock - fully agree with your words. While i will never boo or slag off a player some players are not good enough simple. To say they were the better team over two legs is fine and true. However replacing these players with Babbel and a true defensive left back, and the probable purchase of at least one wide man (duff, emerton most likely) then we would have been the best team on the night. We need to make sure that there are very few teams who can be the better side over two legs (Bayern Munchen / Madrid etc)

Decrease the probability of other teams playing better over two legs by making top purchases in the usual GH style and we'll win the damn thing at Old Trafford next year...
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Offline Eli_B (aka Badland Red)

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2002, 09:49:57 pm »
Andy.....

It won't be an all German final i've just heard that Real Madrid have just beaten Bayern in a high quality match 2-0

The  scorers Ivan Helgeura (68 mins) and Jose Maria Guti 84 mins. Aggregate score 3-2 to Madrid!!

Bayern couldn't resist the wave after wave of Madrid attacks. Overall Real deserved to win the tie and i still think that they are the team to beat in the Champs League.

Bayern Munich's reign as Champions of Europe is over!!
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Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2002, 09:55:28 pm »
With Babbel back it will mean we are even stronger and as if we are signing another new player.

We have a left back. His names gREGORY vIGNAL AND WHEN HE'S FIT ( HOPEFULLY ) with Riise in front we will be ok on the left side.
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Offline Anthony

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2002, 11:50:38 pm »
Revised semi lineup

Barca v Real
Mancs v Bayer

So my dream final Bayer v Real, my nightmare Mancs v Barca (who on earth would I support - one's got arrogant players and the other's just too horrible to contemplate!)
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Offline Paul

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2002, 11:57:18 pm »

(who on earth would I support - one's got arrogant players and the other's just too horrible to contemplate!)

Which is which?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2002, 12:06:17 am »
I agree with davrouk.

Which is which on the mancs v barca front.
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Offline Anthony

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2002, 12:16:47 am »
Ok, ok!  ::)   ;) ;D

I think my point was that, even though they have a load of disrespectful twats playing for them, I'm not aware of any such crap coming from the Barca fans so I could just about live with it for their sake but if you thought the players were insufferable beforehand can you imagine what they'd be like with a winners medal to show off.

And I'm not even going to talk about the other result because, as I said, that's just too horrible to contemplate...
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Offline 4pool

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2002, 03:15:32 am »
KOTP>>>>

It's easy after the fact to find fault or weaknesses in what has transpired. We all know Ged will bring in new players during the close season.

However, i'll take an opposing view that our players are good enough. These are the same ones who won the Uefa Cup last season. Alright, the Champions league is a bit better class, but we knocked out some good teams along the way last year and this. We had fifteen matches unbeaten away in Europe until we lost to Bayer. All credit to them.

But if Owen puts away one chance of his three and we make the semi's, would you have written this same post? Or would we be salivatating at knocking the Mancs out next?  ;D

That's how small the difference is between success and failure. So therefore, the players you singled out are good enough. We just needed that last bit of 'luck' to pull it out.

Let's remember that Bayern Munich got dumped out before reaching the finals, didn't change their squad, and won the CL the next year.

Ya just never know how that round little ball will roll.. ::)
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Offline KFC

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2002, 09:16:58 am »
I have a dummy thought : since GH said this year we are giving the whole squad a chance to have a go in CL, say if we nervously hold on and make the semi-finals we would probably not win it anyway but with that 'great result' he would have to give the same squad 'another year' to prove themselves.  So when Leverkusen piling on pressure in 2nd half GH thought : 'damn it I have seen enough of this and there is no way I want to withstand it with the same squad once again next year' -- so he take off Didi and lose deliberately so that we can focus on clearing out some of the deadwood here in the summer.....

Scary thought that is.....

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Offline mercury

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2002, 10:43:51 am »

Scary thought that is.....


It's more like a very complicated thought!   ;)

Can't see GH let anything stand in his way in his quest for a better team!  Probably doesn't need such a ploy.

Offline Shaky Jake

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2002, 10:56:34 am »
I have a feeling we will be buying some top-class players this summer. But we won't be throwing 30 million quid after one winger... expect evolution and development not revolution.

As for the rest of the competition, well Real Madrid are an awesome football team but also include a number of petulant premadonnas.

Especially Figo. His beahviour last night was horrible. He was always faking, time-wasting, trying to get players sent off and generally being a tosser. However that midfield with him and Zidane is just a joy to watch when they really turn it on.

Barcelona. Wonderfully hostoric club from a city I love. I also loved Barretski's story of how he got into that game with he old Barca fella. I have a soft spot for them. If it only it weren't for those arrogant dutchmen.

The Mancs. Got to admit they're a great team. Golden Balls, Giggs, Scholes. Van N, OGS. Class. They can be so impressive sometimes. But then there's their bloody fans and the media and all the shite that goes with that. Urgh.

So it's got to be Bayer Leverkusen. They played well against us. Had real style, especially down that left hand side. Some of the players have amusing names (Your Butt, Placenta, Bollocks). They're the underdogs. If they win it they'll have beaten the Mancs.

Go Bayer, go.
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Offline TheKid.

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2002, 11:06:05 am »
I agree with the title, were probably not good enough but then were still only a young team.

But things like picking holes in the team/players etc isnt the way to go about it.

We all know you hate Murphy KOTP  :P and he does tend to give the ball away a bit to much for my liking BUT he can be a match winner (just ask the Mancs).

Smicer is lightweight and to be honest ive never really liked him or thought he'd fitted in but in the last few games he's looked better, scoring and, oddly even more positively, getting booked!

Carra is a quality defender but his distribution is sadly lacking.  But what position does he play, right/left BACK ; he's a defender first and foremost!!

As for Xavier, what the fuck has he done wrong??!!??  Since he's been here ive really taken to him (i'd rated him since Euro 2000 thought the Blues tried to ruin him!) and hes done really well!!  Scored a few goals and best of all looks composed coming out of defence playing good, simple balls!

Howeve i do agree that we need some kind of wingers, not to say that there too much wrong with the way we play now, but to be able to change things around at times when we need to would be a distinct advantage!

Offline Shaky Jake

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2002, 12:58:15 pm »
Actually, KOTP I was just mosying around thinking about this thread and

Quote
Last nights result proved that we arent quite good enough yet as a team to compete with the best in Europe


Is obviously bollocks. We are, when measured by the onlyyard stick that counts at least the 8th best team in Europe. And we hold the UEFA Cup. And the Super Cup. And we are second in one of the three toughest leagues in Europe.

So, sorry pal: you're talking crap. I also believe if it came to a 5th-8th place play off we'd gub the Greeks and have a damn good crack at Deportivo and Bayern (who we beat in the Super Cup remember).

Also to say that we were out-classed totally over two legs is crap. In a tight game at Anfield they managed one shot at goal if I'm not mistaken. We were also prevented from going through to the semis by the flimsiest of margins- what if Owen had tucked away one of his chances?

But in Germany there was no mistaking who was the better team. And fair enough. But I think if we had made it to the semis we'd fancy our chances against the Mancs. And what if Leverkusen go all the way? How good does that make us then?

But if you enjoy saying "I told you so" then make the most of it, because it might be the last opportunity you get this season.

8)

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Offline Jason_King

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2002, 01:11:23 pm »
I think we need new faces, I think that Tuesdays performance has shown we are on a plateau. We have some excellent players, but have some(by CL standards) average ones.

If we look at the teams and players we play, look how confident they are under pressure and how they are able to still recieve/play the ball when they are marked or under pressure.  I dont think that our players(English ones especially, Owen a slight exception) can do that very well.

Murphy - a similar player to David Platt in that he isnt great at anything, isnt that quick but has a habit of popping up at the right time and scoring goals, a great knack, agreed. But he does have a habit of playing the wrong balls and trying 50/60 yard passes when they arent needed and giving the ball away. Decent finisher
Verdict- Useful squad player.

Smicer- Not good enough, adds little to our attack, gives us nothing defensively. Yes he may have scored a few goals in the last couple of games, but does that really justify a starting place/squad place? I dont think so, surley Diomede can be no worse?
Verdict- Sell, invest some of our CL cash in a winger/flair player.

Litmanen- A Place should be found for him if we have Didi and Stevie G behind him, we can play him in place of Smicer.
Verdict- True proffesional, we should be looking at getting the best out of him and playing him a lot more regularly.

Carragher- Quality defender, no he isnt going to go past anyone and his passing is slightly better than Phil Babbs. GH said we would have won the league if we had 11 Carraghers(didnt know you could do that off 38 draws), can see what he means.
Verdict- Solid defender that defends, may need better ball playing full backs for some games.

Xavier- Not my favourite as some of you know from past rants. I found him laughable at Goodison, grantedhe has performed better for us and even scored a goal or two. Passing on a par with JC's but looks more comfortable on the ball in a red shirt than a blue one. Good in the air, decent tackler but wouldnt have him in ahead of Wright or Mr Babbel when he returns.
Verdict- reluctantly I agree that he has been a half decent addition to the squad >:(

I think the squad we have is one of the strongest(if not the strongest) in the league, I just think we need 1 or 2 quality signings(an Overmaars, Rosicky etc) to give us a bit of creativity, I think this season has shown that graft gets you so far, you need something a bit extra to go all the way.
But hey, in with a shout for the league, got further than expected in CL, bit shit in the domestic cups but I think the future looks French!  :D

Sorry it was a bit long winded but I had a quiet period at work.

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Offline 4pool

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2002, 01:39:48 pm »
Well it's fun rating players and saying so and so is a squad player or average player. At the end of the day, what does GH and Thommo think? ;D Because that's the key. We will never be able to 'afford' 11 all stars. So this isn't Championship Manager 2002.

One of the things that HAS gotten us this far is Geds ability to analyze the other top sides, find 'their' weaknesses and utilize our strenghts. If the Mancs think they're the best side in Europe, why have we beaten them 5 times in a row with players not good enough for Europe? Why have we beaten the current Champions, Bayern?

Ged will bring in new players. Maybe he'll bring in a winger that some clammer for. But let's analyze HOW Ged wants us to play. Wing style play does not play to Owen's strength. Heskey might benefit. But are we Heskey's team or Owen's? If we have Baros and other 'speedy' players comming in doesn't that mean Ged is committed to breaking teams down through the ball on the ground and not flying in from the touch line?

But overall, imho, Ged prefers his wide players to defend. Something "true" wingers have a problem with. So with deeper wide players, we don't have them busting up the touch line to cross to Rush and Fowler and Collymore..err Owen and Heskey and Anelka. That's not to say pin point crosses from Riise, Berger, Smicer, Jari or whomever don't help. Those are the style players that Ged will try to find. Someone who can defend first and has a sweet right/left boot that can split a packed defense.. :P
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Offline KOTP

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2002, 04:37:43 pm »
Quote
shakyjake.

Quote
Is obviously bollocks. We are, when measured by the onlyyard stick that counts at least the 8th best team in Europe.


nobody remembers the runner up let alone the quater finalists. winning is everything quater finals are nothing.

[quoteAlso to say that we were out-classed totally over two legs is crap]


also were in my post do i say we were out classed in both legs??? i said they passed the arses off us in both legs but i never mentioned that they outclassed us, and also i did say that in tuesdays game unlike in the first leg they created the chances that they should have done due to the possession they had. so before commenting on something maybe you should learn to read???

Quote
But if you enjoy saying "I told you so" then make the most of it, because it might be the last opportunity you get this season.


no i dont like saying i told you so, and do hope i'm proven wrong but somehow i doubt it.



Offline Jason_King

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2002, 05:00:35 pm »
4 pool- does Smicer track back and defend any better than A N Other would?

Who says wingers have to putnt balls into the box, there is no reason why they cant skin a man and lay it into space of rOwen/Heskey to latch onto. I feel at time we are predictable by going straight down the middle.

AND we will always do pretty well against the Utd's Arsenals because they come to Anfield to win, they come at us and want to/expect to score and that suits our style. What doesnt is when lesser teams come and just camp in their own box, how many dogshit games have we had at Anfield when the Leicesters, Watfords, Charltons have won there?
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Offline Steve C

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2002, 05:02:17 pm »
First loss since the middle of January.

Offline Rushian

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2002, 05:55:04 pm »
what's ironic is Murphy and Carragher were possibly our best players out in Leverkusen.
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Offline 4pool

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2002, 06:47:19 pm »
Posted by: Jason_King Posted on: Today at 05:00:35pm
4 pool- does Smicer track back and defend any better than A N Other would?

Err...Jason...Smicer hardly gets a match.   ;)
He's had his moments for us, though.

But it helps prove my point as to those that "start". GH prefers wide players who defend. No problem having someone who, as GH has said over and over" comes off the bench and change the match". So a 'winger' might sit next to Biscan.. ;D

At the end of the day..who starts?
That's why there's a squad system in effect. Horses for courses. Cover for injuries and suspensions. All of this is calculated to help maximize the performance of the 11 who play.

Owen won't play sixty odd matches for us a season and neither will a 'winger'.. :P

I posted this topic earlier..but in January when we were not at our best..Riise was moved to midfield. After that we started to get results. Riise can defend and get forward.  Any coincidence?  Not in my book...This is the type player that GH will try to  find again during the close season..
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Offline robyred

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2002, 07:19:13 pm »
agree with the title but don't think we're far off, i saw a post on ttw+r which i pasted onto the 'how disappointed' thread below but it seems more appropriate for this one, here goes....

"It showed we're still a bit short but that shouldn’t have been a massive surprise (and we'd still have gone through but for the width of a post). I think we're improving over time and we've been slightly overachieving this year due to good team spirit / work rate and our style making us hard to play against. I hope and think that Ged knows this too and will look to improve the squad in the summer. Doing the easy bit first I think the problems are:-
Width
Creativity
Giving the ball away too cheaply
Being overly cautious / defensive
I think the last 2 are linked and are especially frustrating because we’ve shown that we can play in more than one way, just far too infrequently.
Babbel coming back will definitely help & maybe Vignal, but I can’t work out if the back 4's tendency to hoof it (up to heskey or up to no-one on the halfway line, depending on whether we're ‘attacking’ or hanging on for grim death) is down to their own technical shortcomings, our tactics or a mixture of both. I’d love to see us look more comfortable on the ball and defend a one goal lead by retaining possession. Thommo’s right that Paisley’s sides did bore the opposition to death sometimes but they did so by keeping the ball well not by playing ‘ugly’ football. At the end of Tuesday’s match Leverkusen were passing the ball about on the edge of our box, not their own"

Offline Farman

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2002, 10:22:34 pm »
4pool is absolutely right. Loads of fans say we need width. But, by definition, if you have width you loose the strength & solidity in the middle. I just can't see Houllier going in for an out & out winger, unless to come off the bench. He just doesn't seem to be a fan.

France won the world cup without playing wingers (AND they had Guivar'ch up front - how crap was he?). Proof perhaps that you dont need wingers to be winners.
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Offline Jason_King

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2002, 09:26:02 am »
Well yes France won the World Cup, they happen to have a forward in Henry that used to be a winger and spins off wide a lot of the time.
Also a half decent flair player by the name of Zidane behind them, not to mention a decent full back who goes past people- Lizarazu.
I have said we need wing/flair players and France proves my point I think... :)
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2002, 10:11:48 am »
Agree with robyred. I want us to keep possession at times during a game.
Pass the ball around a bit and dictate the pace of the game. That will take some
pressure off our defence too. We know how to defend by putting men behind the ball
(except for the BL game perhaps). To improve, we've got to learn to keep the ball.

I don't think we're that far off either. We've got creative players already. But when we defend
so deep, our creative guys end up with the ball so far away from their box. Players like
Smicer and Jari spend far to much time defending, chasing the ball etc. That's part of
the game, sure, but IMO that part is too big. These guys are good when we have the
ball and our game doesn't suit them if we sit back. I don't think there will be much difference
if we buy a winger. There is only so much you can do in your own half.  

When it comes to attacking a defending team, we need better movement, perhaps some
extra creative player and quicker passing.

As I said, I don't think we are that far off. We need to learn to keep the ball and we
need to keep it in the attacking half. We'll take some pressure off the defence for starters.
But by keeping possession, we'll move our creative players into better positions,
where they are actually capable of doing what they are best at.

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Offline Reeves

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2002, 07:08:43 pm »
mmmmmmmmmmmm,
Some of this may make painful reading, but IMHO…….

It is midfields that win and lose games.

All great teams are built around great midfields. It is for this reason that I believe we need new personnel at Anfield.

Probably the best three teams on the face of planet football at the moment are Real Madrid, Bayern Munchen and as much as it pains me to say it, Manchester United.

Lets take the latter as the first example. Objectively, Keane is nothing short of a sensational midfield dynamo. Mr stamina. He will fight like a bull until the final whistle is blown. He drives the Mancs forward, motivates any underpeforming players, keeps his passing short, runs like an Ox and intimidates opposition players. He is arguably Alex Ferguson’s greatest signing. Ince was fantastic for them, but he was allowed to go as quite simply they had a better replacement. Above all, he is a leader and there is no team in world football today that would not want him bossing the middle of the park.
For all our dislike of him, Beckham again is world class. He never tires and is always available as an outlet down the right. His right foot is arguably the best on the planet and he has developed leadership characteristics. He is arguably the best right sided midfielder in the game today. He would get in any team in the world bar perhaps Real. Scholes is quiet and probably underrated. He isn’t scared to put the boot in and compliments Keane’s tendency to sit back on occasions by being the one central Manc player who likes to come in deep from midfield and support the attack.
For me, Giggs is the best left winger since John Barnes and that in itself is a compliment enough. They miss him when he is out. Along with Keane, he is probably United’s most influential player. Is he the best left sided player in the world? Well I would challenge anyone to find better. It is a shame he will never get to compete on the world greatest stage, as if anyone deserves it, like a famous Northern Irish predecessor, it is he.
Fergie believes in the title statement and that is why he bought Veron. Sure there has been trouble accomadating him, but he is arguably the best South American midfield player at the moment. Rivaldo is perhaps the only South American who eclipses him.

United have run away with the league for seasons now and look like that feat will be repeated this year. Their superiority comes from their midfield. While our attack is better than theirs, while our defence is better than theirs, while our bench is better than theirs and our keeper is the greater, it is their midfield which puts them ahead of us.

The midfield is the key to conducting the football orchestra. Real Madrid have smashed the world transfer record as they know this is true. Own the centre of the park and more often than not, you will win football matches. The centre of the pitch is the key. Their defence is weaker than a team of their stature’s defence should be. Hierro is aging and despite an up and coming youngster along side him, they do not possess any of the top ten centre backs in the world. Nor do United. But it is midfields who win and lose games. This is why they want and are determined to get Viera. He would sit deep and allow Zidane and figo to orchestrate play further up the pitch. Helguera would compliment Viera, while the attacking midfielders would run riot.

United’s defence is poor. United’s attack in recent years has been poor. The term Andy Cole is used up and down the country by school kids when fellow playground friends miss sitters. Hoddle reckons Cole needed 5 chances before he score, but with United’s midfield, he got this. Even Andrei Silenzi, Adi Akenbi or Jason Lee would get 30 a seaon for them.

Bayern have been strong in recent years. Probably their typically German organisation is the key, but their midfield is currently the best in German football. For all his cockyness, Effenberg runs the show. Scholl provides the creativity and Jeremies the much needed bite. It is that midfield trident which runs the show, allowing Sagnol and Lizerazu to overlap.

Some say that in 1986, one Argentinian won the world cup on his own. While the hand of God [no Robbie jokes here] had apart to play in it and no doubt 10 other players, it is undeniable that his performance was probably the greatest by one individual player in a single tournament anywhere and at any time in footballing history. Could he have done this from in defence? Could he have orchestrated things and dominated quite as majestically as he did from up front?? It’s doubtful, for it is the midfield who run the game.

Just take a look at amateur football. You all must’ve played at some stage. If your midfield is on top, you will more often than not win the game. You could have Pele up front, but if enough chances aren’t created by the midfield, you won’t win the game. Quite simple. Moments of individual attacking brilliance aside, it is the midfield who control the game. In that sense it is always quite strange that transfer records seem to be broken by attackers. Francis, Rush, Beardsley, Lentini, Cole, Shearer. Maybe this pattern is changing with ZZ, Figo, Veron and possibly Viera?
For it is the latter who boss the game.

Our greatest ever side was possibly the vintage of 1987/88. Macca did what Keane does for United. Perpetual motion personified, he took the game by the scruff of the neck and ran the opposition midfield ragged. But not in one game, the 1988 cup final. Some say that the tackle by Vinnie Jones on Steve in the first few minutes was the key that day. It showed that Vinnie wasn’t going to be bossed around and that enabled them to compete. While our midfield was far classier on paper, paper teams only win paper cups and on the day they were equal and nicked it at a set piece.
That year, Digger was the man. He was utterly brilliant. Seeing one of his runs in full flow was close to orgasmic. Justifiably a kop favourite and maybe the most naturally skilled player ever to wear a Liverbird upon his chest. Why he never managed to produce that form for his country remains one of the greatest mysteries of all time.
[note, author preferring to ignore, existence of god, why the dinosaurs disappered, exra terrestrial life and JFK at this stage.]
Molby would rather cut of both his wrists than give away the ball, Houghton, a later addition added a new dimension to both our attacking and defensive play and the skunk was one of the most underrated players of that generation. Like Didi, Ronnie Whelan was unoticably yet extremely effective and admired more by players than fans.

Before them, Souness  and Case were the respective bosses of the midfield and  Kenny unlocked the doors. Win the midfield battle and you win the game.
Rivaldo does it for Brazil, yet for some strange reason the Brazilian fans don’t rate him as highly as us because he “left them” to make more money in Europe, but he alone can’t do it all, and Brazil are suffering as a result. A midfield needs to be complete. When Ajax reigned supreme, a midfield of Jari, Davids, Seedorf, Overmars, De Boer et al did it for them. Ac Milan had Gullit and Albertini pulling the strings. When Juve were at their peak a few years ago, who could stop Davids and ZZ? Lazio won the Italian league with the best midfield in that year with Veron, Simeone and Nedved, and closer to home when the Arse won the double, why was this? In my opinion, it was because it was they who had the best midfield. Viera and Petit worked in tandom while Overmars glided past defenders with ease. United came second because Keane and Giggs were out for long periods, thus furthermore illustrating their importance to their team.

Yes it is midfields who run games, dictate the play and give teams consistency, something we have been lacking. Had Redders and a withdrawn Barnes have been able to turn possession in to penetration from midfield, the 90’s may have proved to be more fruitful for the redman.

Currently, Stevie is awesome. When he wants to boss a game, he can. He has the potential to be everything and more. Keane, Souness, Mcmahon and Case all rolled in to one. He can shoot, dribble, pass short or long distances, tackle, fight for the ball and probably one day lead. Didi, I have already covered, he sits deep, breaks up play, links defence and attack and gives the ball short.

While the rest of our midfield are all very good players, have fantastic attributes and on their day can run a game, they do not do so often enough. If we want to take that next step forward we must win the midfield battle more often and develop methods for beating teams who stick 11 men behind the ball.

Our strikers consist of the European footballer of the year who is  arguably the best player in the world and has a wonderful future ahead of him, Anelka, Baros and Heskey. All talented youngsters with potential in abundance. Baros is meant to be the Czeck Maraonna and we all saw what Nic did at the Arse. Added to this, Heskey on form is unstoppable. The number of goals they score with limited chances is very good. If Owen was up front for United or Real, goal statistics would be smashed and records broken. With Le Tallec and Pongolle joining, the future looks bright.

Our defence is awesome, Sammi and Stephane [even if just walking out of the tunnel makes him look knackered] do their respective impressions of slabs of granite week in week out and the Pole in our goal goes from strength to strength. Vignal looks very very exciting, JC I rate extremely highly as I’ve said on may other threads and a fit babble is second maybe only to Thuram in the world as a right back. [Although Cafu may beg to differ].

But will our attack and defence win us what Shanks considered to be our bread and butter?

Are Paddi, Vladdi, Danny, Jari, Macca et al good enough to take us to the next level? Are they really on a par with Giggs, Beckham, Viera and the rest? Because it’s this position on the park which wins and loses league titles.
There is no room for sentiment, just ask sander and Robbie, Ince, or Kanchelskis. If you want to win league titles, difficult decisions need to be made and players who are not up to the level required to take a team to that next level need to be sold and better players brought in. This is one of the way teams get stronger. Rest on past glories and you’ll slip back in to obscurity. We should know.
Sentiment aside, what do really think? Do we need reinforcements for Ged’s five year battle plan?



YNWA


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Offline Farman

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2002, 10:05:58 pm »
Triffic analysis, Reevsie.

You're right about the United midfield. That is the only department they are better than us and, yes, it shows.

The strange thing I feel about this team is that, although they are very good and we're all proud of them, they are not quite the absolute best, and I can't put my finger on where. In the past it has been obvious, eg mid nineties we needed a centre half/goalie/left back.

Now, I'm not sure. I'd take issue with anyone saying Gerrard or Hamann need replacing. Riise is definitely a midfielder rather than a defender and has been great for us there so far. Paddy on form is also very good. Which only leaves right midfield. Murphy/Smicer/Barmby are not exactly bad players, but that is perhaps the only position we may be able to improve significantly, and even then only with a truly world class player.

But who do you propose? Myself, if the thread about Mendieta were true then that IS the sort of player. Seedorf too perhaps, though he is now settled at Inter. Short of unrealistic megastars like Figo there are not a lot of contenders. However, I'm sure Ged will pull off another of his masterstrokes... :)
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Offline john_mac

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2002, 10:25:32 pm »
One poor result and we're back to December's posts.

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Offline Anthony

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2002, 10:29:05 pm »

United have run away with the league for seasons now and look like that feat will be repeated this year.


??? - Taking the remark out of context, perhaps, but if the Mancs do manage to win the League this year they certainly won't be running away with it...

Quote
Fergie believes in the title statement and that is why he bought Veron. Sure there has been trouble accomadating him, but he is arguably the best South American midfield player at the moment. Rivaldo is perhaps the only South American who eclipses him.



This could, perhaps, be a very telling point - one "hypothesis" for the relative lack of success for the Mancs this year has been attributed to the dropping of the "quiet and probably underrated" Scholes in favour of Veron thus unsettling the midfield. GH & Thommo have made similar "quiet and probably underrated" comments about Murphy. Also bear in mind that, of course, our midfield has been at least a match for the Mancs over the last few matches.

We have a very *solid* midfield and that, together with our defence, has been the rock on which we have built our success over the last few seasons. One downside to that has been that, when our midfield has been overrun, we have suffered greatly. The other has been that, offensively, it has been somewhat one-dimensional - play the ball behind the opposing defence for Emile/Michael/Nico to run onto. If the opposition has countered that plan by sitting back and waiting for us to attack we have been relatively unsuccessful in that respect, hence the associated reputation for stuggling against the more "mediocre" sides. (In the last 2 seasons we have only won 2 games in which we went behind but, conversely, we have not lost a single league game this season in which we have taken the lead!)

The challenge for the next step, therefore, has got to be to formulate a more effective plan to break down tight defences. Whether this is by the use of "flair" midfielders or "playmakers" in attack remains to be seen.

I'll leave you with one final thought, which may be almost heretical but has been running through my mind over this season nonetheless - if we had a top-of-their-prime Rush and Dalglish in our current squad would they get a regular game??

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Offline 4pool

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2002, 11:52:05 pm »
           Dudek
Carra, H&H,Xavier
Riise, Hamann, Dalglish, Gerrard
  Rush, Owen

Subs: Kirkland, Heskey, Berger, Smicer, Murphy



yeah...i could see it.. ;D
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Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2002, 12:05:32 am »
There was a very good reason for Figo to run around like a prick.

He wanter to get booked as they play at Barca first in the semi.

He's scared shitless of going back there again.
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Offline john_mac

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2002, 11:25:46 pm »
wank wank wank wank wank

wank wank wank wanker wank wank

no saysomething constructive
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Offline KOTP

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2002, 11:29:04 pm »
and saying we need to improve aint constructive or should we just sit here and say how great we are and that we dont need to improve when we obviously do.

Offline 4pool

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2002, 02:59:04 am »
Getting back to my first post..Bayern didn't bring in any big stars when the went out at the semis and won it the next season.

We had 2, count them 2, players who had made it this far in the Cl before. Jari and Didi. Now we have a squad full. Lessons have been learned.

How long have Arsenal been in the competion with a squad that has won the League once and come second virtually every year? They beat us twice this season, as if we don't need reminding. Yet they fail to get as far as us in the CL.

Their midfield is arguably better than ours. Their strikers aren't to bad. We shade the back four and keeper. Yet they ain't half bad are they? Who have they spent their millions on and yet they can't make the quarter finals?

Give our lads some credit!! ;D

All this complaining is because we don't have a flair player like Pires or Vieira. Or Beckham and Giggs for that matter.

But is that GH's style? One would wish we get so and so..but who has he bought? As the saying goes..get real!

GH will bring in speed for the front line or a hold the ball up wide body, grit for the midfield that might get a cross in, or workmanlike close them down defenders. That's his MO..and that doesn't stand for Michael Owen.  ;)
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Offline Life

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2002, 12:15:07 pm »
I feel like that bloke in the Fast Show...
Oooh yeah, you need wingers, wingers are essential...but yeah, you're right, we are solid, and a winger would ruin that.  Yeah, a flair player is essential....oh no, good point, it's much better to be solid.  Smicer - he's crap...but yeah, he did score a couple of good uns lately.  etc etc

My threepeneth is:
We're not far off with our first 11 if we had Babbel at right-back.  From March on last year in all our big games he was immense, mainly because he over-lapped intelligently.  Vignal at left-back with Riise in front of him should be fine, no probs with the diamond at the back, and I'd rather have Steve G than anyone in the world in midfield.  If we had a more attacking right-side than Murphy I think we'd be more effective but he is playing well lately.
It looks to me like our problem isn't that we've got the wrong players, it's that they're not passing the ball.  I can't remember the last time we dominated possession, and against Bayer we just kept giving them the ball back.  We've got the players to play keep-ball we need to start doing it.

We're young, we're learning and we're building.  The future's bright...

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2002, 12:58:49 pm »
Nice to see someone as constructive as i normally am.



wank wank wank wank wank

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Offline Andy

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Re:we still arent good enough yet.
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2002, 01:00:26 pm »
we still arent good enough yet ...to win the Champions League? fair comment, nor are many many clubs around europe.

we still arent good enough yet ...to win the Premiership? i think we are good enough with the current squad, which is why we are second, ahead of utd, and in with a decent chance. next season there will be changes/tweaking & maybe the odd youngster getting a game - improvements...

we still arent good enough yet ...to regularly challenge for the title & play European/CL football every season? WE DEFINITELY ARE!!  ;D we have a very solid backbone to the team, world class players (dudek, hyypia, hamann, gerrard, owen, jari?, anelka...), a great squad spirit, strength in depth, young players with massive potential (kirkland, wright, baros, partridge apparently...), a world class management team, and now experience of European football.

naturally every team can improve & houllier has said the team as a whole needs to express themselves more.

but i would say, we can be well pleased with our current position!  ;D  ;D  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D