Author Topic: General Election on June 8th  (Read 417170 times)

Offline Sangria

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1520 on: April 25, 2017, 01:58:04 pm »
So they're all as bad as each other and more interested in fighting among themselves than they are beating the Tories. Great.

That's not what I've taken from it. Corbyn and his supporters have been more intolerant of dissent than previous Labour leaders have been. Previous Labour leaders have tolerated and accepted the presence of extremely different voices who've never towed the line, simply because they accept that as a fact of leading a political party. Corbyn's supporters have constantly cited this same as an excuse for their man failing.
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Offline zero zero

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1521 on: April 25, 2017, 01:59:38 pm »
If they'd been strategic and realised that Corbyn would've fell on his own sword then they'd have been in a much stronger position.
What are you talking about? On the morning of June 24th Corbyn demanded an immediate invoking of Art 50. There wasn't time to hang about when Corbyn showed his true colours.

And what do you mean by "they"? There wasn't some well-co-ordinated plan in place. Owen Smith stood up for the 60% of Labour voters who voted Remain.

Offline Danny55

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1522 on: April 25, 2017, 02:06:21 pm »
What are you talking about? On the morning of June 24th Corbyn demanded an immediate invoking of Art 50. There wasn't time to hang about when Corbyn showed his true colours.

And what do you mean by "they"? There wasn't some well-co-ordinated plan in place. Owen Smith stood up for the 60% of Labour voters who voted Remain.

But there was because Corbyn was always going to win a leadership battle against Owen Smith/Angela Eagle, so why put the party through the pain of the process?

My reference of 'they' is all of the MPs/Lords that have actively set out to undermine Corbyn's leadership from the start. It has been coordinated and it helped to garner sympathy in Corbyn's corner, as well as giving excuses for why he was doing so badly in the polls.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/21/peter-mandelson-i-try-to-undermine-jeremy-corbyn-every-day

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1523 on: April 25, 2017, 02:15:12 pm »
And here's the first Tory election broadcast..

Brutal...

https://twitter.com/wikiguido/status/856799315653787649
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Offline Bunter

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1524 on: April 25, 2017, 02:28:15 pm »
And here's the first Tory election broadcast..

Brutal...

https://twitter.com/wikiguido/status/856799315653787649

"Don't vote for this nutter... he doesn't even want to kill people ffs!"

Offline kennedy81

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1525 on: April 25, 2017, 02:28:59 pm »
And here's the first Tory election broadcast..

Brutal...

https://twitter.com/wikiguido/status/856799315653787649
Like shooting fish in a barrel for the Tories.

Offline Zeb

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1526 on: April 25, 2017, 02:41:19 pm »
"Don't vote for this nutter... he doesn't even want to kill people ffs!"

Attlee and Bevin pushed for NATO, starting with the Anglo-French Dunkirk Treaty and then the Brussels Treaty. They were doing it, obviously, while we and Europe were still trying to rebuild after the war.
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Offline zero zero

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1527 on: April 25, 2017, 02:47:39 pm »
But there was because Corbyn was always going to win a leadership battle against Owen Smith/Angela Eagle, so why put the party through the pain of the process?
Because it was the right thing to do, instead of just watch him wave through a Tory Hard Brexit unopposed.

"Don't vote for this nutter... he doesn't even want to kill people ffs!"
"He doesn't want to kill the people who want to kill you."

Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1528 on: April 25, 2017, 02:59:05 pm »
And here's the first Tory election broadcast..

Brutal...

https://twitter.com/wikiguido/status/856799315653787649

If only someone had seen this line of attack coming...
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
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Offline Libertine

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1529 on: April 25, 2017, 03:13:44 pm »
Some fascinating data from YouGov:







Smart people vote Lib Dem.... 8)

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/856828399578480640

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1530 on: April 25, 2017, 03:17:26 pm »
I'd imagine it's because they played their hand last summer and it backfired. If they'd been strategic and realised that Corbyn would've fell on his own sword then they'd have been in a much stronger position.

The majority in the party are just desperate to get rid of the Tories. It doesn't matter what faction the candidate comes from, they just need to come up with a coherent plan to get rid of the Tories and people will vote for them.

And what does Corbyn "falling on his sword" mean? He didn't resign after the failure to gain any concessions to prevent a "bargain basement"(his words) post-Brexit economy, or after whipping his MPs regardless of whether they were in Remain constituencies or not to pass the unamended Article 50 bill. He didn't resign after the Copeland embarassment (which seems to have been largely over concerns about his personal views on nuclear energy). He hasn't stepped down despite apocolyptic polling numbers. Add to that Traingate, and the Trident confusion last week and yet he seems as comfortable in his position as Leader as ever.

So he seemingly has no self-awareness and/or willingness to take responsibility for his failings, and consider resignation and the PLP are effectively barred from criticising him so like I said before, what are the Corbyn-supporting Labour supporting members going to do about it if, as you claim, they are simply desperate to get rid of the Tories?

The answer to that question, unfortunately, is that I think it absolutely matters what faction of the party a leadership candidate comes from. Seemingly if you're in favour of actually explaining how you'd fund your spending; if you don't feel our nuclear weapons are one of the more pressing issues at the moment; if you feel air strikes and other such military action should at least be an option, you're a dirty Blairite who should be dismissed. I actually have a lot of sympathy for the views of Corbyn supporters on Trident and I didn't support Trump's air strike in Syria (and not just because it was done by Trump) but I also don't believe it is the right time to kick up a fuss over Trident, nor would I rule out voting for a leadership candidate that did condone Trump's strike.

Existing Corbyn supporters either don't have the ability to compromise or don't understand why hijacking the party and forcing it away from its long-standing position on issues i.e. on the EU, or on Trident alienates fellow Labour members/supporters. If you want to take those stances on issues, preferably set up your own party or if you are going to force your views on others, don't play the victim when they turn away from you.

Offline cloggypop

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1531 on: April 25, 2017, 03:29:53 pm »
Theresa May wants to lead the world in preventing tourism

https://twitter.com/alexiproduce/status/856860498456915970/video/1

Offline jason67

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1532 on: April 25, 2017, 03:36:25 pm »
There's an estimated 151,000 - 1,033,000 reasons why the Iraq war was a tragic mistake, and one of those reasons is that we don't get to have a statesman like Tony Blair on the frontline sorting this mess out rather than this space cadet Corbyn. Blair would wipe the floor with this Tory Brexit mob but instead the whole country is going to suffer because Citizen Smith is in bed with the Conservtives on it. What a mess we're in.
I've read this a few times now but still can't work out what you're trying to say.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1533 on: April 25, 2017, 03:42:01 pm »
I've read this a few times now but still can't work out what you're trying to say.
He's saying that the Iraq war made the (left leaning) public distrust traditional statesman like politics so we are left with an idiot like Corbyn instead of Simone capable of sorting out the huge issues affecting the country.

And we kind of need one.
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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1534 on: April 25, 2017, 03:49:30 pm »
Simeone capable of sorting out the huge issues affecting the country.



I'd vote for him...
get thee to the library before the c*nts close it down

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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1535 on: April 25, 2017, 03:51:25 pm »
I've read this a few times now but still can't work out what you're trying to say.

Sorry mate, was tired when I wrote it, it made sense in my head. Dyno-Rod pretty much sums it up much more succinctly than I did! The Iraq war was tragic for a number of reasons, mainly the deaths that it caused, but also because it made the greatest British politican of our time (and love him or hate him, no one can deny that he was) toxic to the British public.

And now the country badly needs someone of his stature to sort this mess out, and he clearly wants to, but we're stuck with someone as ineffective as Corbyn.

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1536 on: April 25, 2017, 04:05:44 pm »
"Don't vote for this nutter... he doesn't even want to kill people ffs!"
The message is  Don't vote for this nutter, he will not order our troops or police to defend this country.
 I don't know why your surprised, we knew this was going to happen 18 months ago.
 He's entitled to his opinions as a individual or a back bencher. he is not entitled to these opinions as PM. If you want the job then your have to take all the responsibilities that come with it.
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Offline filopastry

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1537 on: April 25, 2017, 04:33:52 pm »
Westminster VI:

CON: 46% (+7)
LAB: 24% (-2)
LDEM: 11% (+1)
UKIP: 8% (-3)
GRN: 4% (-3)

(via Kantar TNS / 20 - 24 Apr)
Chgs. w/ Aug 2016

Offline thejbs

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1538 on: April 25, 2017, 04:34:00 pm »

Offline Bunter

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1539 on: April 25, 2017, 06:39:27 pm »
End of the day, Labour are in a shitty catch-22 "damned if they do, damned if they don't" scenario in regards to Brexit. Oppose it, they look undemocratic and get accused of ignoring the large swathe of the working class leave vote. Accept it, appease the ignored working-class vote and piss of the liberal, remain voters.

Although a simplistic view (ignoring the rolling over to Tory demands too easily) , it's how many will view it unfortunately.

Offline Sangria

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1540 on: April 25, 2017, 06:47:31 pm »
End of the day, Labour are in a shitty catch-22 "damned if they do, damned if they don't" scenario in regards to Brexit. Oppose it, they look undemocratic and get accused of ignoring the large swathe of the working class leave vote. Accept it, appease the ignored working-class vote and piss of the liberal, remain voters.

Although a simplistic view (ignoring the rolling over to Tory demands too easily) , it's how many will view it unfortunately.

Corbyn made his choice and the Labour members supported it. Now they'll have to accept the consequences of their choices. Or is that someone else's fault as well?

IIRC Corbyn was the second senior political figure to call for an ASAP invocation of article 50, after Frottage and before any Tories. Meaning he was the first MP to do so. Nice to know the Labour leader is the most eager Brexiteer in Parliament.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Bunter

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1541 on: April 25, 2017, 07:34:14 pm »
Corbyn made his choice and the Labour members supported it. Now they'll have to accept the consequences of their choices. Or is that someone else's fault as well?

IIRC Corbyn was the second senior political figure to call for an ASAP invocation of article 50, after Frottage and before any Tories. Meaning he was the first MP to do so. Nice to know the Labour leader is the most eager Brexiteer in Parliament.

I'm not here as a Corbyn apologist. His whole approach to Brexit has fucked me off, I want him gone. I'm just wondering out loud at how Labour square that circle of appealing to the conflicting stances of their traditional voters.

Offline Sangria

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1542 on: April 25, 2017, 07:46:12 pm »
I'm not here as a Corbyn apologist. His whole approach to Brexit has fucked me off, I want him gone. I'm just wondering out loud at how Labour square that circle of appealing to the conflicting stances of their traditional voters.

Like I said, Corbyn made his choice on 24th June 2016 (many would argue he made his hoice decades ago), while Labour members made their choice in the subsequent leadership contest. If he couldn't square the circle, the option was always there to hand over to someone else who thought they could. He didn't, and the members endorsed his choice in increased numbers. So Europhobic Labour is what the party is. Perhaps the party should embrace that rather than blame everything on circumstances or someone else. There is no circle to be squared, Labour is wholly for Brexit and Europhobia, etc.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Alan_X

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1543 on: April 25, 2017, 07:47:20 pm »
I'm not here as a Corbyn apologist. His whole approach to Brexit has fucked me off, I want him gone. I'm just wondering out loud at how Labour square that circle of appealing to the conflicting stances of their traditional voters.

Same as with any other policy. You follow party policy (Labour policy is pro-EU) and use your political ability to persuade the voters.

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Offline Zeb

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1544 on: April 25, 2017, 07:52:46 pm »
Fucking off the Kippers and going all in Remain wasn't a crazy idea. Alternatively, try to do the nuance without the contradictions of "single market but no freedom of movement" which Starmer's trying to patch together out of leadership's policies. A bespoke deal for Britain which involves give and take.

Not going to win an election on Remain in current climate. But two or three years down the line it allows for effective opposition when shit has hit the fan.
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Offline filopastry

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1545 on: April 25, 2017, 07:55:32 pm »
Current Brexit policy isn't convincing anyone anyway, die-hard Remainers are now considering the LibDems as an option and all the polls clearly show that the voters who are fleeing the rotting carcass of UKIP are heading to the Tories in their droves.

Labour could maybe get away with being in a bit of a muddle on Brexit if they were perceived as being strong on other core issues, unfortunately that is far from the case at present.

Offline Rhi

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1546 on: April 25, 2017, 08:15:22 pm »
The Brexit policy isn't all that bad. The problem is it should have been out there ago, not now. It's too fucking late now because they've already proved themselves to be ambivalent/incompetent/both about the whole thing.
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Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1547 on: April 25, 2017, 08:16:32 pm »
Brexit has screwed Labour in England and Wales just as the independence referendum screwed them in Scotland. I really don't see how they come back from this. We're in for at least another decade of Tory rule and who knows what there'll be left by then.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1548 on: April 25, 2017, 08:21:42 pm »
Fucking off the Kippers and going all in Remain wasn't a crazy idea. Alternatively, try to do the nuance without the contradictions of "single market but no freedom of movement" which Starmer's trying to patch together out of leadership's policies. A bespoke deal for Britain which involves give and take.

Not going to win an election on Remain in current climate. But two or three years down the line it allows for effective opposition when shit has hit the fan.
Exactly, saying you want full access to the single market tells us nothing,the Torys also want full access to the single market, problem is they wont pay the price. ive no idea what Labours policy is on Brexit. Corbyn will have many difficult questions to answer and he will be forced to answer yes or no, just saying he wants or hopes for something won't be accepted.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Offline Danny55

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1549 on: April 25, 2017, 08:28:06 pm »
And what does Corbyn "falling on his sword" mean? He didn't resign after the failure to gain any concessions to prevent a "bargain basement"(his words) post-Brexit economy, or after whipping his MPs regardless of whether they were in Remain constituencies or not to pass the unamended Article 50 bill. He didn't resign after the Copeland embarassment (which seems to have been largely over concerns about his personal views on nuclear energy). He hasn't stepped down despite apocolyptic polling numbers. Add to that Traingate, and the Trident confusion last week and yet he seems as comfortable in his position as Leader as ever.

So he seemingly has no self-awareness and/or willingness to take responsibility for his failings, and consider resignation and the PLP are effectively barred from criticising him so like I said before, what are the Corbyn-supporting Labour supporting members going to do about it if, as you claim, they are simply desperate to get rid of the Tories?

The answer to that question, unfortunately, is that I think it absolutely matters what faction of the party a leadership candidate comes from. Seemingly if you're in favour of actually explaining how you'd fund your spending; if you don't feel our nuclear weapons are one of the more pressing issues at the moment; if you feel air strikes and other such military action should at least be an option, you're a dirty Blairite who should be dismissed. I actually have a lot of sympathy for the views of Corbyn supporters on Trident and I didn't support Trump's air strike in Syria (and not just because it was done by Trump) but I also don't believe it is the right time to kick up a fuss over Trident, nor would I rule out voting for a leadership candidate that did condone Trump's strike.

Existing Corbyn supporters either don't have the ability to compromise or don't understand why hijacking the party and forcing it away from its long-standing position on issues i.e. on the EU, or on Trident alienates fellow Labour members/supporters. If you want to take those stances on issues, preferably set up your own party or if you are going to force your views on others, don't play the victim when they turn away from you.

I know it's the fashion on here to blame Corbyn for everything to do with Brexit but if he hadn't whipped his MPs then it would have resulted in more party disunity. If he had whipped the party to vote against the democratic will of the country then could you imagine the headlines that would generate? Really not a good look.

Throw in the fact that going against Brexit would've meant pissing off a lot of Labour's core vote in areas that are ripe for UKIP. That kind of approach could easily have seen Labour lose seats such as Stoke as it would've given the right an excellent platform to campaign on and get locals passionate.

The Liberal Democrats can afford to shout from the rooftops about second referendums etc. What have those Tory colluding bastards got to lose? They got wiped out at the last election because they showed their true colours and they'll do the same again given half a chance.

Labour's situation is different. So many on here see it as black and white because they're devastated about no longer being part of the E.U. I understand that but to try and appeal to the country you surely cannot unequivocally go against a vote that was held just 12 months ago. As a political strategy it's pretty much suicide.

As for issues regarding Trident I think they should be dropped as well. It's just not worth the hassle it would generate. I'm abandoning strong views on my part by saying that but you've got to fight battles that you can win.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1550 on: April 25, 2017, 08:32:42 pm »
The policies where Labour is strong are best described as the 'well duh' policies: the NHS, union rights, welfare etc. It's the Labour Party.

What else is there? 'We're not the Tories' seems to be the main thrust. And the economic keystone policy isn't being explained or promoted - it just looks like Labour borrowing £500 bn. It might be a good idea but would anyone trust Corbyn and McDonnell with half a trillion quid?
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1551 on: April 25, 2017, 08:34:49 pm »
Ah well at least after this Conservative win no one will have to worry about the NHS, Human Rights, Workers Rights or fair laws because there won't be any ever again.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1552 on: April 25, 2017, 08:37:38 pm »
The policies where Labour is strong are best described as the 'well duh' policies: the NHS, union rights, welfare etc. It's the Labour Party.

What else is there? 'We're not the Tories' seems to be the main thrust. And the economic keystone policy isn't being explained or promoted - it just looks like Labour borrowing £500 bn. It might be a good idea but would anyone trust Corbyn and McDonnell with half a trillion quid?

What are they going to spend that money on exactly?

Ive only read vague suggestions
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Danny55

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1553 on: April 25, 2017, 08:40:14 pm »
The policies where Labour is strong are best described as the 'well duh' policies: the NHS, union rights, welfare etc. It's the Labour Party.

What else is there? 'We're not the Tories' seems to be the main thrust. And the economic keystone policy isn't being explained or promoted - it just looks like Labour borrowing £500 bn. It might be a good idea but would anyone trust Corbyn and McDonnell with half a trillion quid?

It is mad though. 7 years of Tory rule that's brought nothing but vicious cuts, Brexit shambles, NHS crisis and food banks yet you get working class people on the news proudly declaring they can't wait to get down to the polling station to vote for Theresa.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1554 on: April 25, 2017, 08:43:13 pm »
It is mad though. 7 years of Tory rule that's brought nothing but vicious cuts, Brexit shambles, NHS crisis and food banks yet you get working class people on the news proudly declaring they can't wait to get down to the polling station to vote for Theresa.
Yes it's depressing..

But there's a reason for it..

The alternative...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Rhi

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1555 on: April 25, 2017, 08:46:38 pm »
I swear to God (hehe), if I hear one more reporter ask Tim Farron to explicitly clarify his views on gay sex, I'm going to scream. Not content with his voting record, not content with him saying he doesn't believe gay people are sinners, not content with his repeated assertion that he supports the LGBT community and equality for them, no... no, Tim. We need to know, specifically, how you feel about sodomy. As if they're all so fucking offended by him and his religion. As if they're just fighting the good fight for LGBT rights. It's an embarrassment to journalism that that was the only thing anyone wanted to talk to him about. He's a full-on evangelical and yet STILL manages to have a better voting record on LGBT rights than Theresa fucking May, and yet all the press want to do is make him talk about blokes having sex. ARRGHHHHH.
“Above all, I would like to be remembered as a man who was selfless, who strove and worried so that others could share the glory, and who built up a family of people who could hold their heads up high and say 'We're Liverpool'.” - Bill Shankly

Offline zero zero

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1556 on: April 25, 2017, 08:48:02 pm »
I know it's the fashion on here to blame Corbyn for everything to do with Brexit but if he hadn't whipped his MPs then it would have resulted in more party disunity.
:lmao Sorry that's far as I got. For there to be more party disunity there would have to be two parties.

Offline Danny55

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1557 on: April 25, 2017, 08:50:57 pm »
:lmao Sorry that's far as I got. For there to be more party disunity there would have to be two parties.

I'm putting forward the argument for why he whipped the MPs. If you think having a 50/50 split throughout the party would've been a better approach on Brexit then fair enough.

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1558 on: April 25, 2017, 08:56:13 pm »
I'm putting forward the argument for why he whipped the MPs. If you think having a 50/50 split throughout the party would've been a better approach on Brexit then fair enough.

You give the party a free vote. It's not difficult.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/30/syria-airstrikes-jeremy-corbyn-gives-labour-mps-free-vote
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Offline Danny55

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1559 on: April 25, 2017, 08:58:08 pm »
You give the party a free vote. It's not difficult.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/30/syria-airstrikes-jeremy-corbyn-gives-labour-mps-free-vote

Swiftly followed by "He can't lead his party. Labour are at war with each other over Brexit" etc.