Topic: Old photos of and around Liverpool

[Tsar Kastik]

The Underground. Which one is this? I've only ever used James Street and that bend looks a bit severe for there.

Picture from here, https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/underground-railway-liverpool-97664

[The Gulleysucker]

I've no idea Tsar, I rarely ever used the Underground and that bend doesn't look at all familiar to me either, I don't remeber any at all in any of the stations, but the lack of any electric rails and that steam engine would seem to indicate a portrayal of a scene before 1903 when it was all electrified.

However, it does look remarkably similar to this shot of Baker Street Underground in London from the other year when they ran a steam train through...

[Tsar Kastik]

Uncanny; you and the likeness! 

I saw this posted on a Twitter account I follow, which is mainly paintings or the like, but oddly she often puts up train photos also.

[The Gulleysucker]

It's a bit of a strange one Tsar.

I did check the artist out, and he seems to have painted a few scenes around town, so it's not as if he was someone who painted a fictional scene to depict an idealised Liverpool underground station, maybe based on what he was familiar, eg Baker Street.

However, I thought I'd cast my gaze over the water, and what should I find but this, Hamilton Square....



It must be from post 1903, the lines are electrified, but I wonder.....

[Tsar Kastik]

Another contender there Gulley, but that bend!?

He was born in Liverpool, and married there too in 1899, and seems to have moved to London, so he would probably have seen plenty of underground stations. But he was only 22 when he painted that one [1894] and still up North I think.

[The Gulleysucker]

... but that bend!?

Here's another couple of shots from more modern times after the latest re-fit, it could be...





I can only assume Prescott may well have taken a bit of artistic licence with his painting as the platforms in it seem a bit 'busy' with lights and other stuff.

I suppose we really need a picture of it all pre-1903 to settle it either way.

[Super MAC]

I've lived in Aigburth all my life (47 years) and only learnt yesterday that there used to be a railway station at Otterspool and it's still there although derelict in the main. I drive past the thing nearly everyday but it's hidden behind trees. I'm that sad I even went down there today for a look and sure enough there it was.

[Tesco tearaway]

I've lived in Aigburth all my life (47 years) and only learnt yesterday that there used to be a railway station at Otterspool and it's still there although derelict in the main. I drive past the thing nearly everyday but it's hidden behind trees. I'm that sad I even went down there today for a look and sure enough there it was.

Did you snap any pictures?
Could do a 'then and now' comparison 

[John C]

I've lived in Aigburth all my life (47 years) and only learnt yesterday that there used to be a railway station at Otterspool and it's still there although derelict in the main. I drive past the thing nearly everyday but it's hidden behind trees. I'm that sad I even went down there today for a look and sure enough there it was.

I grew up there also mate, that's a fabulous pic. Gulley may be able to explain the intricacies of the track and why there's changeover track in a very small station.

Love that pic.

[The Gulleysucker]

... Gulley may be able to explain the intricacies of the track and why there's changeover track in a very small station.

It's what's called a trailing point, once quite common in the past at most double track line stations under the control of a local signal box.

The general idea was it would allow the train or engine to pull just beyond it, then reverse and swap onto the other track to go in the other direction, useful for example in an emergency if the line ahead was blocked.

Often it would also be required to allow convenient shunting and bi-directional wagon movements in and out of a local goods or coal yard if there was one.

I can't find a track diagram for Otterspool so I've no idea if there was a goods siding layout, but if there was it would be behind the camera in the picture.

Since they left nothing nothing to chance and required a signalman to throw them in conjunction with deliberate but controlled engine movements under signalling, trailing points were always regarded as generally being far safer than facing points which a driver could enter at speed and if the signalman had forgotten to reset them, suddenly find himself running on the wrong track in the wrong direction and with possibly disastrous consequences.

[Super MAC]

Some pictures of how it looks now

[Super MAC]

I love stuff like this, I was looking up some information  about the original shoreline that used to be called the Cast Iron (or Cazzy) shore. The area from the end of Aigburth Rd down past Shorefields school and the nursing home used to be a beauty spot called Knotts Hole that led down to cove by where the site of the Garden Festival now is. The cliffs known as Dingle point can still be seen by the roundabout on Riverside Drive. Looks great, pity we decided to turn it into a refuse tip!

[Tesco tearaway]

Old and new pictures of Otterspool station. 

[redbyrdz]

I love stuff like this, I was looking up some information  about the original shoreline that used to be called the Cast Iron (or Cazzy) shore. The area from the end of Aigburth Rd down past Shorefields school and the nursing home used to be a beauty spot called Knotts Hole that led down to cove by where the site of the Garden Festival now is. The cliffs known as Dingle point can still be seen by the roundabout on Riverside Drive. Looks great, pity we decided to turn it into a refuse tip!

Yeah, I looked into that once, mainly because I thought it was stupid to build an estate down on the shore. But apparently the Mersey has never flooded it - though it must have in older times, how else could the cliffs have been formed?

It was called to Cast Iron shore because of the iron works on it (which may or may not have made the frame for nearby St Michael's church), before it became the site of the Herculaneum Pottery (1794-841), which then was dug out for Herculaneum dock (1864-1972), filled in again and now has houses on it.

[redbyrdz]

I can't find a track diagram for Otterspool so I've no idea if there was a goods siding layout, but if there was it would be behind the camera in the picture.

I don't know if there would have been space for anything like that, the track goes under a road just about 150m earlier and over a bridge directly after the station?

[The Gulleysucker]

Since I posted that, I had a look at Rail Map and yes, there doesn't appear to have ever been any goods siding, so it would just be a trailing point for emergency use.

Edit correction...there was a goods siding, long lifted, between  Otterspool and what was originally called Mersey Road & Aigburth but is now just Aigburth, you can see it when you start to zoom, so it probably has something to do with that. See here.

Also mentioned in this thread on Yo.

Edit...And more...

Nice bit about the history of Otterspool here.

And on the proposed rail link to the dock bit mentionted in it, I found this here, which led to this zoomable OS map of the immediate vicinity from the 1920's which shows the sidings track layout and the embankment for the proposed link down to the dock....

[redbyrdz]

Since I posted that, I had a look at Rail Map and yes, there doesn't appear to have ever been any goods siding, so it would just be a trailing point for emergency use.

Edit correction...there was a goods siding, long lifted, between  Otterspool and what was originally called Mersey Road & Aigburth but is now just Aigburth, you can see it when you start to zoom, so it probably has something to do with that. See here.

Also mentioned in this thread on Yo.

I think you can still see on google maps that the track bed is wider there, and there is something white where it would have parted - maybe still a signalling box?

[The Gulleysucker]

I think you can still see on google maps that the track bed is wider there, and there is something white where it would have parted - maybe still a signalling box?

Just edited and added a bit more to my post above...

[So… Howard Philips]

Great thread! We lived in Park Road when I was a kid in the 1950s and a trip on the 82 to Otterspool was a proper day out. I used to look forward to reaching the railway bridge hoping that a train would go across it when I was underneath the bridge.

The station would have closed by then but I don't remember seeing much of a station from under the bridge.

[redbyrdz]

Great thread! We lived in Park Road when I was a kid in the 1950s and a trip on the 82 to Otterspool was a proper day out. I used to look forward to reaching the railway bridge hoping that a train would go across it when I was underneath the bridge.

The station would have closed by then but I don't remember seeing much of a station from under the bridge.

Its too the right of the bridge when you are facing the river. It's someone's house now, the road to it goes off Jericho Lane just after the entrance to the park.

Nice bit about the history of Otterspool here.

That is really interesting, thanks! I live close by and go there quite often, I have never noticed the tunnel, really tempted to go now and have a look.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

That is really interesting, thanks! I live close by and go there quite often, I have never noticed the tunnel, really tempted to go now and have a look.

I've chased my oldest through that tunnel many times...if I've got the right one...there's some graffiti of (I think) a big eye at the entrance.

[redbyrdz]

I've chased my oldest through that tunnel many times...if I've got the right one...there's some graffiti of (I think) a big eye at the entrance.

Ah, It's half-way up the bank. I'm sure I've seen it before, but I couldn't remember it at all.

[Super MAC]

I'm assuming that this must have been somewhere close to where the cave and the rock face is, circa 1820 AD

[Super MAC]

The bit I find most interesting about Otterspool Park which never gets mentioned is that according to local historian Mike Royden http://www.roydenhistory.co.uk/mrlhp/local/otterspool/otters.htm, the guy who built St Anne's Church and lived in the now demolished mansion house (where the derelict cafe now stands) was a guy called a John Moss.

John Moss was a good friend a George Stephenson who built the Rocket and its claimed that whilst staying with Moss at his Otterspool residence, Stephenson laid down his prototype track and Rocket engine along what was once the riverbed there.

I've posted a picture of what the Mansion looked like, the grass field that surrounds this area was itself I believe once a culvert where the River Jericho as it was latterly called or Oklesbrok as it was originally known met the Mersey.

[Super MAC]

John Moss by the way when he wasn't being a railway pioneer and god fearing church builder was also the owner of 1000 slaves.... go figure ....I've just bought a book about him off eBay for 1p 😂😂. Anyone who wants a read of it when I'm finished, let me know and I'll be happy to pass on.

[John C]

The bit I find most interesting about Otterspool Park which never gets mentioned is that according to local historian Mike Royden http://www.roydenhistory.co.uk/mrlhp/local/otterspool/otters.htm, the guy who built St Anne's Church and lived in the now demolished mansion house (where the derelict cafe now stands) was a guy called a John Moss.

I'm on a roll name-dropping tonight    Mike was my brother-in-laws best man at my sisters wedding at St Annes Church.

[Super MAC]

Awesome - get him on here 😂👍

[John C]

Awesome - get him on here 😂👍

He's a bad Blue

[redbyrdz]

I was looking at the base of where Otterspool house stood yesterday. I was wondering which way round it stood, because the space there seems smaller than on that drawing. There is one set of stairs left, but they are on the far right of the platform (if looking from the river). From the other side (where the river/lake bed is), there are no stairs, but in the centre there is a part that is coming out slightly - maybe there once was? Or have they demolished half the platform?

It also seems to me that the ever-closed cafe stands where the tower in front of the house was. It even picks up a bit of the style, with the overhanging supported roof. Maybe the architect wanted to keep a reminder of the original house there?

[Pistolero]

Mersey Road prom




Miss Walton Hall Avenue 1990..




The 'Conti's' first birthday...




1952 outside the Adelphi...




Church Street 1966...



Central Station 1968...



Newington (Behind Central Station) 1968...



Cagneys 1980..



Jimmy, Kenny, Terry...beating the Manc's in 1979...

[John C]

They're brilliant P, I think the Prom pic has been posted before but I could look at it for hours. From that to couple of mile long concrete structure.
I wonder of Gulley knows why and what was the strategy or is it self-evident?

The 4 lads seem to be as cocky as fuck though, it's as if they've won the local youth boxing championship and have been taken to the from for a pic without the cup.

In the Central 1968 pic, is that the lyceum so discoloured its black - whats that about Gulley?

[The Gulleysucker]

In the Central 1968 pic, is that the lyceum so discoloured its black - whats that about Gulley?

The stone on most of the old buildings around town back in the 60's used to be very blackened, discoloured from a century or more of coal fire and town gas pollution.

Lister Drive power station and Clarence dock power stations were going and constantly spewing all kinds of stuff into the atmosphere as well as all the gas and tar works like Linacre and various assorted foundries and smelting works around Vauxhall,

From what I remember the Corpy cleaned them all around the late 60's and into early 70's.

St Georges was covered in scaffolding and tarpaulins for what seemed like at least a couple of years.

When it was all finished, it was an absolute revelation to see places like St Georges, the Picton, the Walker and the Museum as when constructed.

[John C]

The stone on most of the old buildings around town back in the 60's used to be very blackened, discoloured from a century or more of coal fire and town gas pollution.

Lister Drive power station and Clarence dock power stations were going and constantly spewing all kinds of stuff into the atmosphere as well as all the gas and tar works like Linacre and various assorted foundries and smelting works around Vauxhall,

I remember a few buildings, including the Liver Building, being stone blasted to clean them - what a massive task. I'd guess that was late 70's. I'm surprised the Lyceum was so badly sooted though. Thanks again Gulley.

[The Gulleysucker]

I can't find any pictures of the cleaning though I do remember a short clip on Look North on TV of them doing it, and it's difficult with the old black and white photos to really see what it was like before the cleaning, but this pic from the early 50's perhaps gives a sense of just how blackened the stonework of St Georges was when I was growing up...



I think it was mainly the sandstone buildings that were most effected by the pollution.

[Tsar Kastik]

Makes good sense that Gulley. What's new? 

[Tsar Kastik]

From Angelcake today, worth a look

' 1941 illustrates the extent of the air defences located in sefton park & the large swathe of playing field given over to allotments for food'


https://twitter.com/angelcakephotos/status/855557159727321088

[The Gulleysucker]

She's got some great stuff on there.

Not a photo, but a map detail attached, I never knew there was a old quarry almost opposite Anfield.

Looking at streetview of today it's interesting to see the plot seems to have never been built on, it's some kind of playgrounds.

[Tsar Kastik]

She's got some great stuff on there.

Not a photo, but a map detail attached, I never knew there was a old quarry almost opposite Anfield.

Looking at streetview of today it's interesting to see the plot seems to have never been built on, it's some kind of playgrounds.


What's that in the football pitch size piece of  land adjacent to Goodison - oval shaped with lines radiating from it?

[The Gulleysucker]

Do you mean this attached?  It looks like some kind of a mound or possibly a depression, without contour lines it's difficult to tell..

(PS, the map is from 1890 so it's not Goodison, it's when Anfield was the Everton ground)

[Tsar Kastik]

Sorry for the delay Gulley - attending to the wildlife.

Yes that's the one. It seems to have some kind of erection either side;strange set-up, wasn't some sort of training pitch was it? Maybe it was a sand dune for running up and down - a famous Everton tradition I believe.