Author Topic: Rafa knocks back contract  (Read 147329 times)

Offline Flopsy

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1040 on: January 17, 2009, 08:19:16 pm »
I'm a little curious. Why did this have to come out? Hasn't he still got 18 months on a contract. If there are difficulties, just keep it inhouse. After his Rant at Fergie, surely this wasn't the time?

Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1041 on: January 17, 2009, 08:20:23 pm »
I live in Surrey, but I'm from Lancaster.

Brilliant: I've been called a 'fucking bell', a 'wool' and a 'Manc' within 30 minutes of questioning the moral majority. Nothing like a quiet night in these days...

You've been a member for over a year. Why the sudden flurry of posts? Was your other account banned?

Can't see the huge problem with what Rafa has said anyway. Its completely unrelated to anything that goes on on the pitch. And i doubt there's too many in the dressing room concerning themselves with whats going on, its Rafa's business and he has every right to voice his concerns, especially when its no fucking secret how inept Parry is in these matters. We've all been shouting it for months and years.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 08:22:46 pm by Bob Loblaw »

royhendo

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1042 on: January 17, 2009, 08:20:58 pm »
It's amazing. Soccer Special was the same today. People don't concern themselves with reading what the quotes actually say. Rafa hasn't said he doesn't want to be accountable, and he hasn't said there's no role for a Chief Executive.

Rafa wants control over footballing matters, which, as he says, is generally what has to happen in the absence of a technical director. Nobody, not even Parry's biggest advocate, could claim Parry is qualified to play a technical director role for Liverpool Football Club, let alone any football club at a professional level. Yet that's exactly the role he's trying to play, getting involved in football matters, making football decisions at Academy level, second guessing the management and scouts, and generally disrupting the progress of our football.

Then there's the fact people chuck in "aah but what about Barry/Alonso?".

The problem with the Barry/Alonso thing was the dithering and posturing that extended over the entire summer and got the club in the limelight again for not being very good at this sort of thing. The same applies to Keane. We know, on the other hand, that Rafa wants business done quickly, and if there's any nonsense of that kind, he'll move on to another target, because a big priority is getting the player in early. So chances are (and I think this is very likely indeed) that in Parry's shoes this summer, Rafa would have acted very differently, and that many of these issues wouldn't have caused the storms they did.

And beyond that, had Rafa been given the authority he was led to believe he would get from the outset, the squad would already be balanced, strong, and deep enough that we wouldn't have had to consider the issues of Barry and Keane in the first place. Players in all the positions they tend to fulfil would already have been secured, and better players at that.

This stuff about 'not being able to get on with your bosses' is idiotic by the way. Rafa's worked with people he's not gotten on with on a professional basis from pretty much the word go in his career, but he's gotten on with it and tried to do what's best. The problem here is we have a very well connected man installed as manager who is being hindered from doing his job. The business people should set the budget and any guidelines on player ages, resale targets, wages and related structure... whatever... but within those guidelines the football people should have authority to act, and the bottom line is they'll be judged on how well they do their job.

People say 'how can we let Rafa get this type of control if he would have sold Alonso and bought Barry?', but they conveniently ignore that the squad may well already have been fully mature well before the summer, and with some of the kind of players I'm currently drooling over watching La Liga this evening.

As for this 'in an extreme example he sells gerrard, torres, reina and alonso...' - what the fuck are you talking about mate? Some of the stuff being posted in here is an utter joke. But then most of the stuff being spouted on Soccer Special this lunchtime was just as bad, so what chance do we have eh?

royhendo

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1043 on: January 17, 2009, 08:23:55 pm »
Agreed. You can't give anybody that amount of responsibiltiy without accountability, in any business or organisation.

There wouldn't be removal of accountability. There would be increased authority, but not complete removal of accountability. It's clear from the various interviews what the situation is, yet people are ignoring the facts.

royhendo

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1044 on: January 17, 2009, 08:27:24 pm »
And incidentally it's cold in the stands, how would the system you propose have worked in Man Utd's case when Ferguson sold Stam, Van Nistelrooy, Beckham...? How would it have worked with Wenger's sales of Anelka, Overmars, Viera, or Henry?

The set-up you're proposing we keep is the same one that saw us lose Owen on a free, McManaman on a free, and almost lose Gerrard twice, thanks to the fella you claim is the one doing us a service.


Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1045 on: January 17, 2009, 08:28:27 pm »
If I'm not mistaken, this is the 3rd draught of  Benitez’s contract. The obvious sticking point being the clarification of his responsibilities.
The contracts have been altered each time, but have obviously failed to meet with Rafa’s expectations. These contracts have been drawn up under the instructions laid down by H & G, but it's not clear if Parry has had any say in the structuring of responsibilities. I'd be very surprised if he did officially, but unofficially is a different matter.
However it wouldn't be a surprise if the final draughts had been presented to him at the same time as Benitez‘s advisers.

H & G know full well what Benitez is after, as does Rick Parry. Dragging this out and not ascending  to his demands through 3 draught contracts is being seen two ways. Firstly that  H & G have already decided what course of action to take but are adopting a softly softly approach to it all in order to buy themselves some time until they can sit down with all concerned at the end of January and iron things out in person. . This would have the added bonus of keeping a lid on a potential powder keg.

Secondly  that they have no clear idea of how this will be resolved and again, need to gauge the depth of feeling in person. This is the more worrying for obvious reasons. The role Rick Parry has was defined by H & G initially and the concern is that they should be able to take away what they gave in the first place. The reality is somewhat more complicated. Parry is a professional man of high standing in the game. Any changes to his remit are going to be met with reticence . Losing  credibility and having his power reduced would be seen as a direct criticism and not be accepted lightly.

However, Benitez is in that exact position now. His position as manager is under constant scrutiny and he feels unable to work to his full capacity and fulfill the demands placed upon him under the current work practices. This is seen as a slight on his professional ability.

All Benitez demands are to do with ensuring the success of Liverpool F.C and are in no way seen as  him trying to wrestle power for powers sake. Parry would argue the same case, but with less credibility as football matters are still seen within the club as taking precedence.

Parry and Benitez have tried to work together. They know  that a great many of the problems have been caused by H & G. However both know that allies are needed, given the ’voting structure’ being used at the club.
There is still a certain degree of mistrust about however.This plagued the early years of H & G reign and was compounded when it became apparent to Moores and Parry that debt was going to be levied on the club. The first cut is the deepest as they say.   

Either way there has to be compromise for this to be resolved. Whether that compromise is to be voluntary or enforced is unknown.
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1046 on: January 17, 2009, 08:28:44 pm »
Parry out, Rafa signed up to a new deals and Hicks and/or Gillett to sell either to one another or someone else, if there's any takers.

Offline nickbray

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1047 on: January 17, 2009, 08:29:14 pm »
You've been a member for over a year. Why the sudden flurry of posts? Was your other account banned?

Bloody hell, what is this: the Spanish Inquisition?

I haven't had any accounts banned (yet).  I've spoken with both Hicks and Gillett in the last 18 months and I thought that the Rafa situation was worthy of a post.

I only wanted to make one post, but came under attack so, as a certain Spaniard did last week, I decided that I should defend myself.

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Offline TSC

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1048 on: January 17, 2009, 08:39:07 pm »
Bloody hell, what is this: the Spanish Inquisition?

I haven't had any accounts banned (yet).  I've spoken with both Hicks and Gillett in the last 18 months and I thought that the Rafa situation was worthy of a post.

I only wanted to make one post, but came under attack so, as a certain Spaniard did last week, I decided that I should defend myself.



You daren't disagree with the majority view - this is a harsh lesson & you must learn from your mistakes!

Carry on mate - it's a forum after all for all different views.

Anyway, Liverpool FC off the pitch at least has been an utter shambles and embarrassment over the last 12-15 months.  And it all gets played out in the press.  It always seems to blow up whenever we threaten to achieve something on the pitch.

It's fucking boring.  The mancs must be pishing themselves.

I'm not comfortable with Rafa always making things public.  But then sometimes he has to, to enable the support to smell the coffee, such as exposing the owners for what they were last yr.

No idea though if he'll survive this.

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1049 on: January 17, 2009, 08:41:07 pm »
All Benitez demands are to do with ensuring the success of Liverpool F.C and are in no way seen as  him trying to wrestle power for powers sake. Parry would argue the same case, but with less credibility as football matters are still seen within the club as taking precedence.
Well that's reassuring. Thanks.

Offline StormyDog

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1050 on: January 17, 2009, 08:42:39 pm »
I'm a little curious. Why did this have to come out? Hasn't he still got 18 months on a contract. If there are difficulties, just keep it inhouse. After his Rant at Fergie, surely this wasn't the time?
I guess (IMO) it came out now to try to stop the press from speculating over why Rafa doesn't have a new contract yet.
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1051 on: January 17, 2009, 08:46:58 pm »
Bloody hell, what is this: the Spanish Inquisition?

I haven't had any accounts banned (yet).  I've spoken with both Hicks and Gillett in the last 18 months and I thought that the Rafa situation was worthy of a post.

I only wanted to make one post, but came under attack so, as a certain Spaniard did last week, I decided that I should defend myself.



by the way you are not a radio plugger by any chance as i once knew a fella with the same name
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Offline Ernie Clicker

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1052 on: January 17, 2009, 08:47:12 pm »
The Keane thing is a strange one but if he wasn't Rafa's signing then August would have been the time to shout about it. He could have made his point back then when Barry was railroaded and Keane was signed and he could and should have resigned if it was the case, no point moaning about it now. That's why I don't believe that Keane wasn't his signing, there was no noise about it and he seemed happy with the deal. Personally I'd rather hear a statement from Rafa on that situation.
This was 1st raised a couple of weeks ago and I'm curious where the suggestion that Keane wasn't Rafa's signing originated from.

Offline nickbray

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1053 on: January 17, 2009, 08:51:10 pm »
I guess (IMO) it came out now to try to stop the press from speculating over why Rafa doesn't have a new contract yet.

The really interesting thing, though, was the way in which the owners, especially Hicks, came out almost immediately and said that they would try to resolve this.

Obviously, they wanted to use this as an opportunity to get onside of the supporters (no chance), but also they probably think that having Rafa in place in the summer will improve their chances of selling the club on (stable management in place, with supportive playing squad), or seeking further investment, which they may have to do if they can't refinance the loans in July. Rafa is nothing if not a shrewd tactician, and he obviously feels he is negotiating from a position of strength by making the demands he is making on transfers.
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Offline Ernie Clicker

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1054 on: January 17, 2009, 08:53:00 pm »
First and last post hopefully ya' fucking bell.
He's entitled to an opinion mate and the fact is you can't actually prove him wrong presently.

Offline nickbray

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1055 on: January 17, 2009, 08:54:12 pm »
by the way you are not a radio plugger by any chance as i once knew a fella with the same name

No, mate, I'm not. I've just googled 'radio plugger' to make sure it wasn't another insult...
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Offline Ernie Clicker

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1056 on: January 17, 2009, 08:55:14 pm »
Why is Nick getting abuse? He is entitled to his opinion even if its different from your own.

He is right Rafa is a stubborn old goat.
beat me to it

Offline Redskin

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1057 on: January 17, 2009, 08:59:21 pm »
Well IF it was reported then would be the time to act but it wasn't reported. As he did last week he came out with a prepared statement and threw the cat amongst the pigeons while we're in the middle of a title race. All he had to say was discussions are ongoing. There'd have been no incentive for Parry, Gillett or Hicks to rock the boat and announce he'd rejected the contract. Rafa's done this because I suspect he knows the level of support he has amongst the fans. I think its a little unfair on his behalf.

I agree that Parry should have no input into who we buy (still I have to wonder who prevented Alonso leaving, and from the sound of Ballague's statement it wasn't Rafa) but this is being played out in the media again and that's not on, and only one person has instigated this.

The Keane thing is a strange one but if he wasn't Rafa's signing then August would have been the time to shout about it. He could have made his point back then when Barry was railroaded and Keane was signed and he could and should have resigned if it was the case, no point moaning about it now. That's why I don't believe that Keane wasn't his signing, there was no noise about it and he seemed happy with the deal. Personally I'd rather hear a statement from Rafa on that situation.

Rafa hasn't shouted about this at all, and he carn't. Can you imagine how this would effect Keane if it's true. Rafa had a new player, whether he wanted him or not, and had to make the best use he can of him. IF, as you rightly say it's true.
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Offline rewood

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1058 on: January 17, 2009, 08:59:28 pm »
don't worry nickbray, i'm with you.  it's difficult sometimes to say your peice in the face of such adversity, so well said.

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1059 on: January 17, 2009, 09:00:11 pm »
No, mate, I'm not. I've just googled 'radio plugger' to make sure it wasn't another insult...

no its not an insult. knew someone of the same name who also supported liverpool
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Offline SallyCinnamon

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1060 on: January 17, 2009, 09:02:36 pm »
Rafa hasn't shouted about this at all, and he carn't. Can you imagine how this would effect Keane if it's true. Rafa had a new player, whether he wanted him or not, and had to make the best use he can of him. IF, as you rightly say it's true.

He's not been able to play him as he wishes because his strike partner has been fucking injured & Robbie couldn't cut the mustard as a lone striker..

So enough with that conspiracy bollocks.
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royhendo

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1061 on: January 17, 2009, 09:09:02 pm »
It's a shame that shanklyboy can drop another quality post in here and it doesn't even cause so much as a ripple. I'm quoting two of them just in case people browsing by get the chance to read them... otherwise they could be lost in the sea of nonsense.

I've tried to stay out of this thread as much as I can as I didn't want to have to keep responding to some of the drivel that seems to creeping into every other post since Rafa's press conference last week. It's not that easy when you see things repeated  30 seconds after SSN have said it and another myth is perpetuated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
So I'm going to give an honest opinion based on fact. People can take it or leave it but those that know will understand. Those that want to just use any platform of perceived negativity to have a crack at Benitez will continue to do so because its been festering in their heads for too long to change. Those that only have an opinion dependant on what they see in the media will only change their opinion when they are told what it is by the same.

I've worked with Rick Parry and as you say Alan there is far more to this man than just being an accountant. His commitment to Liverpool F.C is undoubted and his workload would make most of us buckle after a week.
The job he inherited from Peter Robinson was one of if not THE biggest challenge to anyones abilities in recent football history.
The lack of foresight from his illustrious predecessors over many years has probably got more to do with our current plight than people care to see. Simply because it's easier to blame the 'clown' than anyone else. There is no smoke without fire though and therein lies part of the story.
Behind the scenes, he has worked tirelessly to haul our club back to where we once were. Both in terms of financial muscle and administrative excellence.
His ability to do this has been questioned many times within the club and some of the methods employed have actually left us further behind and not even close to be drawing level with our competitors.
Part of the blame for this has been the remnants of Liverpools administrative past. How things had to be done 'The Liverpool Way', while still dragging the club into the modern day. Liverpool as a footballing business model would be the team equivalent of the 2nd Division when Parry arrived while our main competitors were swanning around The Champions League, such was the ground we had to make up.

The problem with Parry is that his role and responsibilities have changed dramatically at the same time as we tried and failed to play catch up. So no sooner did we look as though we were getting there,then he was loaded with further responsibilities. This created difficulties, compounded by the changes in the managerial structure of the club and the rapid responses needed in the modern game. He was in effect doing 3 jobs.
One he was qualified for as an accountant. One he had experience of, effectively, as a senior administrator with the Premier League  and one he was never going to manage effectively alongside the other two. That was as C.E.O of Liverpool F.C.

How a club like Liverpool F.C could be the only one who didn't employ a marketting executive until Ayres was appointed is testament to the reliance of keeping things done a certain way so as not to rock the boat. They didn't learn by past mistakes. See the farcical 'joint manager' roles of Evans & Houllier as further evidence of that type of reasoning.

The job was too big for Parry but nobody within the club was prepared to change the situation. Instead more responsibility and therefore more power was given to Parry.

Once Benitez arrived at the club, things started to change almost immediately.
Benitez realised that from a footballing aspect the club was not geared up to the needs of the modern game and certainly not to the needs of Liverpool F.C. Some of the things Benitez was informed were in place when he was offered the managers position were clouded in half truths. Many of those things were paramount to Benitez in his decision to come to the club. They represented many of the things he saw as being vital for the club's long and short term future.

Benitez came to the club believing there was a platform for him to put his ideas in place and take the club to where they told him they wanted to be. The reality of what he found was so far removed from the initial promises. Initially this was put down to clashes of personality, which in some cases it was. However Benitez found himself running down blind alleys at almost every turn.He was continually meeting Parry down there. The main stumbling blocks being cash, the buying and selling of players and the youth structure. All things that a footballing man needed to run smoothly and effectively. Benitez was renowned for being one of the widely respected youth coaches during his time in Spain and this was a major part of his CV. Yet he was told to keep his nose out at Liverpool. The fragmentation of the senior and junior set ups at the club was beyond his comprehension. As was the fact that he, as manager was being prevented from having any effective input in to it's running or effectiveness.
Benitez decided to restructure those areas he was 'allowed' to and that started some major problems.
He effectively bypassed the youth system and brought his own players in, to train with the senior squad. Once Steve Heighway left,many of the successful youth team were promoted to the reserves and therefore came under his overall control.

He still didn't have any real input into the youth set up which was being overseen and run by Rick Parry. Parry's reluctance to sanction or back the overhaul of the youth system has been a major problem for Benitez. A none footballing man effectively preventing a football man from doing what he was brought in to do in the first place.
It is well known within the club that Benitez wants to develop our own players. He is extremely passionate about it, yet feels this won't happen quickly enough under the present structure.Even though that long term the club will benefit both financially and in terms of having a local heart to the club. Something that he spoke of only today.

On top of all of this is the farcical situation regarding protracted transfers we are all aware of. This all came to a head, just before the Gerrard fiasco made the headlines. Parry's reticence to get the Gerrard's contract sorted out was seen within the club and by Rafa in particular as an indication of how much power Parry thought he had. This was a further indication of his lack of footballing mentality. He was actually prompted to get this sorted from within the club but still dragged his heels.This caused major problems internally and is the catalyst for many of today's difficulties. The almost catastrophic outcome was seen as a watershed. It wasn't!

On top of that Benitez had the unfortunate misfortune of having to go through Parry for every transfer.
I'm not going into who they were, but certain players at home and abroad had approached Liverpool F.C and had agreed to come after speaking with Benitez only for the deal to fall through after Parry became involved. Some were high profile, some were not. The biggest deals having been well documented. Some equally as big which have not been.were already agreed with players without massive wage demands or contract terms only to fall away yet again. This caused severe professional embarrassment for Benitez and restricted the progress of the team.

Once the takeover came about and the club was restructured once again, Benitez was once again made promises regarding transfers.Certain operating procedures were put into place by Hicks  & Gillette to try and smooth things along. Without going into too much detail about what they were here, they failed when the H & G relationship started to wobble. The operating procedures fell by the wayside, which Benitez wasn't happy about as they appeared to be working. Once H & G lost the day to day 'hands on ' contact with club matters,apart from Ayres 'input', things reverted to type and Parry just went about things The Parry Way.

As I said initially, Parry works tirelessly for the club. However he is not the man for the job. Certainly not working with Benitez, or any other forward thinking manager, who knows the buck stops with him under the current structure.
As the public face of Liverpool Football Club, you couldn't meet a more insipid, grey, uninspiring man. He is the archetypal accountant, who's lack of personality and charisma is exactly what you would imagine it to be by his public image.


If I'm not mistaken, this is the 3rd draught of  Benitez’s contract. The obvious sticking point being the clarification of his responsibilities.
The contracts have been altered each time, but have obviously failed to meet with Rafa’s expectations. These contracts have been drawn up under the instructions laid down by H & G, but it's not clear if Parry has had any say in the structuring of responsibilities. I'd be very surprised if he did officially, but unofficially is a different matter.
However it wouldn't be a surprise if the final draughts had been presented to him at the same time as Benitez‘s advisers.

H & G know full well what Benitez is after, as does Rick Parry. Dragging this out and not ascending  to his demands through 3 draught contracts is being seen two ways. Firstly that  H & G have already decided what course of action to take but are adopting a softly softly approach to it all in order to buy themselves some time until they can sit down with all concerned at the end of January and iron things out in person. . This would have the added bonus of keeping a lid on a potential powder keg.

Secondly  that they have no clear idea of how this will be resolved and again, need to gauge the depth of feeling in person. This is the more worrying for obvious reasons. The role Rick Parry has was defined by H & G initially and the concern is that they should be able to take away what they gave in the first place. The reality is somewhat more complicated. Parry is a professional man of high standing in the game. Any changes to his remit are going to be met with reticence . Losing  credibility and having his power reduced would be seen as a direct criticism and not be accepted lightly.

However, Benitez is in that exact position now. His position as manager is under constant scrutiny and he feels unable to work to his full capacity and fulfill the demands placed upon him under the current work practices. This is seen as a slight on his professional ability.

All Benitez demands are to do with ensuring the success of Liverpool F.C and are in no way seen as  him trying to wrestle power for powers sake. Parry would argue the same case, but with less credibility as football matters are still seen within the club as taking precedence.

Parry and Benitez have tried to work together. They know  that a great many of the problems have been caused by H & G. However both know that allies are needed, given the ’voting structure’ being used at the club.
There is still a certain degree of mistrust about however.This plagued the early years of H & G reign and was compounded when it became apparent to Moores and Parry that debt was going to be levied on the club. The first cut is the deepest as they say.   

Either way there has to be compromise for this to be resolved. Whether that compromise is to be voluntary or enforced is unknown.

Something I meant to add to the end of the previous post,which is partly my own views to go with a conversation I had today.
Given the statement by Hicks and his confidence that all of this can be easily resolved there is a school of thought that all of this has been contrived by H & G.
They know full well what Benitez is asking for yet after 3 draught contracts have been worked on they have still not come up with anything satisfactory.
The deliberate nature of not coming up with the goods is a double edged sword.Firstly to test the resolve of both Benitez and Parry, in order to see how determined they are to have their way.
Secondly and most interesting is the 'fire starter' theory.

H & G have engineered this situation, have lit this particular fire themselves, in order to be the Knights in shining armour who come and put it out.
They may have decided that Benitez is likely to fight this publically and by keeping a low profile, they can gauge the public response. If the reaction to Benitez from the fans is pro-Rafa, they can implement their plan. If it isn't in favour of Rafa , they can implement plan an alternative plan.
They have known all along what needs to be done, have decided what course of action to take and are simply employing elaborate tactics to win the hearts and minds of the supporters or implement whatever plan they deem is appropriate, based on their own agenda and/or their perception of public support for Benitez.

Seems a bit far fetched doesn't it?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 09:54:53 pm by royhendo »

Offline Redskin

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1062 on: January 17, 2009, 09:09:56 pm »
He's not been able to play him as he wishes because his strike partner has been fucking injured & Robbie couldn't cut the mustard as a lone striker..

So enough with that conspiracy bollocks.

I'm not suggesting any such thing as a conspiracy. I'm just responding to a point somebody else was making as to why, again, if true  Rafa has said nothing.

Personally, I think the whole thing is a load of bollocks, so there you go.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 09:24:43 pm by Redskin »
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1063 on: January 17, 2009, 09:13:18 pm »
my thinking exactly, if he had his way we'd have garry barry in our midfield instead of Xabi, so although i agree with his sentiments, im lucky he didnt get his wish too early on

yes because Barrys had  a shit year hasn't he taking Villa to a champions league spot and points off us
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1064 on: January 17, 2009, 09:15:00 pm »
The really interesting thing, though, was the way in which the owners, especially Hicks, came out almost immediately and said that they would try to resolve this.

Obviously, they wanted to use this as an opportunity to get onside of the supporters (no chance), but also they probably think that having Rafa in place in the summer will improve their chances of selling the club on (stable management in place, with supportive playing squad), or seeking further investment, which they may have to do if they can't refinance the loans in July. Rafa is nothing if not a shrewd tactician, and he obviously feels he is negotiating from a position of strength by making the demands he is making on transfers.

I'll go along with that. I think people still, up till now, forget how smart our manager is. I don't think he acts on impulse. Everything is thought out before he makes his decisions.
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1065 on: January 17, 2009, 09:18:22 pm »
It's a shame that shanklyboy can drop another quality post in here and it doesn't even cause so much as a ripple. I'm quoting two of them just in case people browsing by get the chance to read them... otherwise they could be lost in the sea of nonsense.

I was so impressed with the 1st one I posted it in the official site this morning, (hope he dosen't mind), but I'd missed the 2nd, so thanks for raising it.
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Offline nickbray

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1066 on: January 17, 2009, 09:19:00 pm »
Adding to Shanklyboy's comments about the management of the club, which is interesting and, I think, a fair overview of the off-field management of the club, I think that the main focus of Hicks & Gillett's activity, if you can call it that, has been to try to develop the commercial side of the business, and this has led to a lack of focus on the operational side of the business.

I'll back this up by two points:

1. both Hicks and Gillett told me that they saw Parry's role as looking after player contracts, given that he was a lawyer (he's not, he's actually an accountant).
2. They bought the club on the premise that Liverpool has a fan base that is as broad and wide as you know who, and that all the club needed was a commercial strategy to develop the non-matchday revenues of the club. This is why they created the Commercial Director role.

Unfortunately for the club, the focus on the commercial side meant that the operational side and the stadium development was not given the focus it should have been given. The result: the lingering operational issues (Parry vs Benitez) and no progress on the stadium.
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1067 on: January 17, 2009, 09:19:36 pm »
yes because Barrys had  a shit year hasn't he taking Villa to a champions league spot and points off us

Shhhh fudge... nobody's allowed to mention that! And besides, everybody knows it's all Ashley Young's doing ;D

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1068 on: January 17, 2009, 09:20:36 pm »
And incidentally it's cold in the stands, how would the system you propose have worked in Man Utd's case when Ferguson sold Stam, Van Nistelrooy, Beckham...? How would it have worked with Wenger's sales of Anelka, Overmars, Viera, or Henry?

The set-up you're proposing we keep is the same one that saw us lose Owen on a free, McManaman on a free, and almost lose Gerrard twice, thanks to the fella you claim is the one doing us a service.



well if liverpool were going to sell players of that quality i`d want someone to challenge the manager, asking him why.
it`s rumoured ferguson sold those players because he fell out with them, is selling them in the best interests of the club? couldnt the manager try and patch up his differences with the players?
if not, they have to go, but i`d at least like someone there to ask the questions.

owen said he would sign, if someone says that you have to take them at their word.
seem to remember mcmanaman saying something similar.

all`s i`m saying is i want someone there to question managers decisions, like selling alonso and spending £18m on gareth barry.
i`ve seen dalglish,evans and houllier make strange decisions at the end of their liverpool careers, the pressure of the job warps their judgement.
lets face it having a go at ferguson in the media, whilst brave, could be seen as someone feeling the pressure.


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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1069 on: January 17, 2009, 09:22:51 pm »
Adding to Shanklyboy's comments about the management of the club, which is interesting and, I think, a fair overview of the off-field management of the club, I think that the main focus of Hicks & Gillett's activity, if you can call it that, has been to try to develop the commercial side of the business, and this has led to a lack of focus on the operational side of the business.

I'll back this up by two points:

1. both Hicks and Gillett told me that they saw Parry's role as looking after player contracts, given that he was a lawyer (he's not, he's actually an accountant).
2. They bought the club on the premise that Liverpool has a fan base that is as broad and wide as you know who, and that all the club needed was a commercial strategy to develop the non-matchday revenues of the club. This is why they created the Commercial Director role.

Unfortunately for the club, the focus on the commercial side meant that the operational side and the stadium development was not given the focus it should have been given. The result: the lingering operational issues (Parry vs Benitez) and no progress on the stadium.

Do you have any insight into the mooted changes in Parry's role and their potential impact on boardroom strategies nickbray, given that you've inside access to Hicks and Gillett?

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1070 on: January 17, 2009, 09:27:19 pm »
He's entitled to an opinion mate and the fact is you can't actually prove him wrong presently.

Oh really.

Reading this topic, it seems that most of you think that one man is bigger than Liverpool FC.

No, this is your take on the arguments. Another would be that many believe Rafa should be given the level of control he seeks.

Rafa is good, but not great. We have the personnel now, but we will not win the League under him due to his over-cautious tactics.

In your opinion, but how you can make this judgement either way is beyond me. Until today, we were top of the league. He brought Traore a CL medal in his first season - not great? - that is genius proportions.

Further, his demands for total control on transfers are excessive.

Are they though. To decide the value of a player rather than the CEO to me is fair. I wouldn't have paid twenty million for Keane but I didnt think we would get Torres for the same.

It's not what many of you want to hear, but he has taken us as far as he can.

Oh fuck off. How can I take this seriously? Tell you what Nick, yeah lets fuck him off, find a new manager, rebuild yet again. I mean our positioning in the league and CL is of such poor showing it warrants it.

The challenge is to find a manager who can take his team and make them into Champions by playing more attacking football

Go on then. You appear a fountain of knowledge so lets hear it.

You see, John C, he is entitled to an opinion but it's bollocks and without reasoning. It's just general wishy washy shit hence why he was called a bell.

Now, I am no great fan of Rafa. I have questioned him many times but how you can categorically state that on a day when we were ousted from the top of the league in a season where Rafa has changed, football wise from previous, with a squad that is now his own; we should be looking for a new manager as this is the furtherst Rafa can take us, is fucking laughable and in my opinion worthy of the derisory nature of my reply and the disdain I exhibit.
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1071 on: January 17, 2009, 09:29:53 pm »
well if liverpool were going to sell players of that quality i`d want someone to challenge the manager, asking him why.
it`s rumoured ferguson sold those players because he fell out with them, is selling them in the best interests of the club? couldnt the manager try and patch up his differences with the players?
if not, they have to go, but i`d at least like someone there to ask the questions.

owen said he would sign, if someone says that you have to take them at their word.
seem to remember mcmanaman saying something similar.

all`s i`m saying is i want someone there to question managers decisions, like selling alonso and spending £18m on gareth barry.
i`ve seen dalglish,evans and houllier make strange decisions at the end of their liverpool careers, the pressure of the job warps their judgement.
lets face it having a go at ferguson in the media, whilst brave, could be seen as someone feeling the pressure.

Rafa's not suggesting that kind of challenge be removed. If any senior pro who is fundamental to the side's development were to be axed, it would potentially have an impact beyond the footballing side. Interestingly, Alonso is the only case where this has come up - many on here were behind the idea (it's a great thing hindsight) and regardless, nobody in the market was prepared to meet Rafa's strict valuation on the player. On the other hand, having told Parry he wanted Gerrard's situation sorted out quickly on two key occasions, Parry prevaricated and we almost lost the player.

I'd rather someone was challenging Parry when he second guesses deals like Alves, Kaladze, or Daniel Carvalho (to name but three). Who's putting his judgement on football matters under the appropriate scrutiny? Why spend vast sums on a sophisticated scouting network and then leave it in the hands of, with the greatest respect, an accountant with a reasonable business CV?

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1072 on: January 17, 2009, 09:32:50 pm »
It's amazing. Soccer Special was the same today. People don't concern themselves with reading what the quotes actually say. Rafa hasn't said he doesn't want to be accountable, and he hasn't said there's no role for a Chief Executive.

... But then most of the stuff being spouted on Soccer Special this lunchtime was just as bad, so what chance do we have eh?

Another top post.

I find it quite illuminating how and why people question Rafa's motives. As I said in a previous post, what has he done to warrant such levels of mistrust?

The naysayers are entitled to their opinion of Rafa as a coach and as a tactician. His record with transfers is another area where an alternative opinion is valid.

But to suggest, as has been done in some posts here, that his actions on this issue have ulterior motivation, that he's somehow contriving a situation to the ultimate detriment of the club, and for personal gain, is not only without foundation, it's cheap, personal and nasty.

Which brings me to the B.B.C.  The Saturday lunchtime show saw a new low in spurious, sensationalist 'journalism' that for sheer crassness put Sky to shame.

These boards have always seen plenty of heated debate. The level of that debate, sadly, is now a reflection of what we're seeing in the wider media. Machavellian/conspiracy theories are two a penny.

Yet this is Rafa Benitez we're talking about - not 'Arry fucking Redknapp. 

So I repeat; what has he done to deserve such mistrust?
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1073 on: January 17, 2009, 09:41:55 pm »
The really interesting thing, though, was the way in which the owners, especially Hicks, came out almost immediately and said that they would try to resolve this.

Obviously, they wanted to use this as an opportunity to get onside of the supporters (no chance), but also they probably think that having Rafa in place in the summer will improve their chances of selling the club on (stable management in place, with supportive playing squad), or seeking further investment, which they may have to do if they can't refinance the loans in July. Rafa is nothing if not a shrewd tactician, and he obviously feels he is negotiating from a position of strength by making the demands he is making on transfers.
I agree that Hicks comments (and the speed of them) was quite a shock, I guess Rafa let G+H know that he was about to go public to kill speculation. As for Hicks words, I'll take them with a block of salt. I feel that if Rafa wants to control non-footballing stuff (like budget allocation say) then G+H will stand firm, if he wants to control footballing matters (like how to split the player purchase budgets) then he might get Hicks on-board.

I sense that Rafa + his advisors have made it clear to Parry what he wants but Parry(in his role of negotiating the contract with Rafa) doesn't want to budge. the reasons for this would be either Parry didn't agree with Rafa demand and his blocking the changes or G+H have told Parry to block the changes as they don't want to give Rafa the powers he's asked for. If its the latter then Rafa will not get what he want and probably walk. If the issue is closer to Parry then when G+H arrive the deal will be pushed through and Parry will have to eat some humble pie.
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1074 on: January 17, 2009, 09:43:47 pm »
Another top post.

I find it quite illuminating how and why people question Rafa's motives. As I said in a previous post, what has he done to warrant such levels of mistrust?

The naysayers are entitled to their opinion of Rafa as a coach and as a tactician. His record with transfers is another area where an alternative opinion is valid.

But to suggest, as has been done in some posts here, that his actions on this issue have ulterior motivation, that he's somehow contriving a situation to the ultimate detriment of the club, and for personal gain, is not only without foundation, it's cheap, personal and nasty.

Which brings me to the B.B.C.  The Saturday lunchtime show saw a new low in spurious, sensationalist 'journalism' that for sheer crassness put Sky to shame.

These boards have always seen plenty of heated debate. The level of that debate, sadly, is now a reflection of what we're seeing in the wider media. Machavellian/conspiracy theories are two a penny.

Yet this is Rafa Benitez we're talking about - not 'Arry fucking Redknapp. 

So I repeat; what has he done to deserve such mistrust?

I have a feeling I agreed with you yesterday, well I having to do it again.

I just don't get what it is Rafa has done to justify such rubbish. As you say people are entitled to their opinions on him when it comes to team selection etc, but if they carn't see he is the only one at the Club that can be trusted to have its best interests at heart, then I just don't get it.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 09:47:24 pm by Redskin »
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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1075 on: January 17, 2009, 09:48:12 pm »
It's a shame that shanklyboy can drop another quality post in here and it doesn't even cause so much as a ripple. I'm quoting two of them just in case people browsing by get the chance to read them... otherwise they could be lost in the sea of nonsense.

Something I meant to add to the end of the previous post,which is partly my own views to go with a conversation I had today.
Given the statement by Hicks and his confidence that all of this can be easily resolved there is a school of thought that all of this has been contrived by H & G.
They know full well what Benitez is asking for yet after 3 draught contracts have been worked on they have still not come up with anything satisfactory.
The deliberate nature of not coming up with the goods is a double edged sword.Firstly to test the resolve of both Benitez and Parry, in order to see how determined they are to have their way.
Secondly and most interesting is the 'fire starter' theory.

H & G have engineered this situation, have lit this particular fire themselves, in order to be the Knights in shining armour who come and put it out.
They may have decided that Benitez is likely to fight this publically and by keeping a low profile, they can gauge the public response. If the reaction to Benitez from the fans is pro-Rafa, they can implement their plan. If it isn't in favour of Rafa , they can implement plan an alternative plan.
They have known all along what needs to be done, have decided what course of action to take and are simply employing elaborate tactics to win the hearts and minds of the supporters or implement whatever plan they deem is appropriate, based on their own agenda and/or their perception of public support for Benitez.

Seems a bit far fetched doesn't it?

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Offline Redskin

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1076 on: January 17, 2009, 09:53:03 pm »
Something I meant to add to the end of the previous post,which is partly my own views to go with a conversation I had today.
Given the statement by Hicks and his confidence that all of this can be easily resolved there is a school of thought that all of this has been contrived by H & G.
They know full well what Benitez is asking for yet after 3 draught contracts have been worked on they have still not come up with anything satisfactory.
The deliberate nature of not coming up with the goods is a double edged sword.Firstly to test the resolve of both Benitez and Parry, in order to see how determined they are to have their way.
Secondly and most interesting is the 'fire starter' theory.

H & G have engineered this situation, have lit this particular fire themselves, in order to be the Knights in shining armour who come and put it out.
They may have decided that Benitez is likely to fight this publically and by keeping a low profile, they can gauge the public response. If the reaction to Benitez from the fans is pro-Rafa, they can implement their plan. If it isn't in favour of Rafa , they can implement plan an alternative plan.
They have known all along what needs to be done, have decided what course of action to take and are simply employing elaborate tactics to win the hearts and minds of the supporters or implement whatever plan they deem is appropriate, based on their own agenda and/or their perception of public support for Benitez.

Seems a bit far fetched doesn't it?

Unfortunately not with these 2. I'm afraid I just don't trust them as far as I could spit.
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Offline offthemark

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1077 on: January 17, 2009, 09:55:25 pm »
yes because Barrys had  a shit year hasn't he taking Villa to a champions league spot and points off us
forget about aston villa. they are riding their luck. my my even drogba n fat frank should be ashamed of themselves with the amount of flucky goals and penalty villa is being awarded nowadays.

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1078 on: January 17, 2009, 09:55:53 pm »
I agree that Hicks comments (and the speed of them) was quite a shock, I guess Rafa let G+H know that he was about to go public to kill speculation. As for Hicks words, I'll take them with a block of salt.

Wasn't at all surprised with Hicks' comments.  It's clear that on previous 'differences' it's been Hicks & Rafa v Gillet & Parry.  Hicks wants Parry out and Gillet is no friend of Rafa.

Something I meant to add to the end of the previous post,which is partly my own views to go with a conversation I had today.
Given the statement by Hicks and his confidence that all of this can be easily resolved there is a school of thought that all of this has been contrived by H & G.
They know full well what Benitez is asking for yet after 3 draught contracts have been worked on they have still not come up with anything satisfactory.
The deliberate nature of not coming up with the goods is a double edged sword.Firstly to test the resolve of both Benitez and Parry, in order to see how determined they are to have their way.
Secondly and most interesting is the 'fire starter' theory.

H & G have engineered this situation, have lit this particular fire themselves, in order to be the Knights in shining armour who come and put it out.
They may have decided that Benitez is likely to fight this publically and by keeping a low profile, they can gauge the public response. If the reaction to Benitez from the fans is pro-Rafa, they can implement their plan. If it isn't in favour of Rafa , they can implement plan an alternative plan.
They have known all along what needs to be done, have decided what course of action to take and are simply employing elaborate tactics to win the hearts and minds of the supporters or implement whatever plan they deem is appropriate, based on their own agenda and/or their perception of public support for Benitez.

Seems a bit far fetched doesn't it?



Similarly I can't see this being true, given the fact G&H don't get on.  Of course they may well have patched up their differences to pursue mutual benefit re potential sales, etc, but I doubt it.

Offline nickbray

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Re: Rafa knocks back contract
« Reply #1079 on: January 17, 2009, 09:55:55 pm »
JohnnyBoy

I take back what I said about you typing one sentence in five minutes, but you haven't read my post in any detail, and you tend to write as you speak, which doesn't do you any favours.

Here's some more bollocks without reasoning for you, taking each of your points one by one:

1. Your point about Traore is right but irrelevant. I am talking about winning the league in the future, not the Champs League in the past. In particular, I am not advocating that Rafa has not done well to get us where we are. That would be stupid - we have been better every season since he took over.

2. Your point about Rafa being able to value players rather than the CEO is, IMHO, plain wrong. The way it should work, is that the manager should submit a list of targets to the CEO, and the CEO should do all he can to get the players, within budgetary constraints. This is traditionally how it has worked at Liverpool (read Dalglish's autobiography). To suggest that Rafa should do all of this without any accountability doesn't make sense.

3. If you read my post, I specifically say that the challenge is to find another manager who can make us Champions without having to rebuild. Granted, this is a huge challenge. The point is this: when Houillier left in 2004, we had a weak squad that needed a complete overhaul. Now, we have a much stronger squad that does not need a huge overhaul, but I think that it is still not performing to its full ability because of Rafa's tactics and footballing philosophy.

4. In your last para, you say that 'Rafa has changed'. If we were having this discussion in October, after we had beaten United and Chelsea and were playing (generally) 4-4-2, I would have agreed with you that he had changed. But leopards do not change their spots, and Rafa has reverted to playing, in general, two holding midfielders. The result: he hasn't changed, and probably won't. Again, you're looking at the table, a snapshot, rather than the bigger picture.






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