Topic: Deloitte Money League

[CraigDS]

'Pie in the sky' suggests the numbers presented are wholly made up & they don't actually receive this revenue. These are audited figures and so we can say that the components of the revenue figure have been substantiated. Man City definitely receive this income, so it cannot be 'pie in the sky'. There is no technical issue with the accounts.

Questioning the means of obtaining this income is a separate conversation, although it would be difficult for any footballing regulatory authority to prevent them from signing sponsorship deals with companies whom they have a 'good business relationship' with.

You’re nit picking at the meaning of an ambiguous phrase when you clearly knew what was being meant by its use.

[BCCC]

Of no interest what so ever until I see a reduction in match ticket prices.

[bornandbRED]

You’re nit picking at the meaning of an ambiguous phrase when you clearly knew what was being meant by its use.

I was making a general point & you quoted me.

Also, I can't seem to find any evidence of Man City ever having to write down anything? Please prove me wrong.

[CraigDS]

I was making a general point & you quoted me.

I think you’ll find you initially quoted me, given it was me who said their figures were pie in the sky, aka fantasy, aka artificially inflated via exaggerated deals from companies connected to their owners.

Also, I can't seem to find any evidence of Man City ever having to write down anything? Please prove me wrong.

Apologies. It’s PSG which have currently had theirs written down for FFP purposes. City’s are being looked at as part of the new UEFA investigation.

[BaZ87]

Our CL income gets a big boost from finishing 2nd last season, in this years revenue.....and even bigger next year after we win the league.

The TV money is split: 40% 30% 20% 10%

That's just one part of the CL market pool money. You then have an amount which is dependent on how far you progress relative to the rest of the sides from your nation It's very difficult to be too accurate right now as there are loads of different permutations as all 4 PL sides are still in the competition but as a very very rough guide, if we make the semi this season our overall CL money will be around the same as when we won it last season. Winning the CL could potentially be worth £20m or so more than last season.

Where we will have benefitted most is the £8m or so we've made from the Super Cup and World Club Cup and the new PL tv deal which kicked in this season. Although domestic rights dropped slightly, overseas rights more than made up for it and more importantly, the PL agreed a new distribution method for overseas rights. £3.3bn (the value of the previous overseas deal) will continue to be split equally but the additional £1bn will now be distributed based on League position. Nick Harris estimated that we stand to make approx £177m from PL money if we win the League this season, an increase of £25m on last season.

..our investment in digital, which Deloitte say will underpin new commercial deals there is further potential.

We're already seeing the benefit of this. The most noteable thing from this report has been our broadcast revenue. Our CL win and taking home more PL money than anybody last season (2nd place finish was offset by a greater number of televised games than City) meant that our broadcasting revenue was always going to be huge but it's been even greater than expected. From PL and CL prize money we made approx £250m but total broadcast revenue was just shy of £264m. Despite no meaningful progress in either domestic Cup, we made around £14m from other broadcasting revenue. To put that into context, I don't think we made even £4m the season before last.

Tweets from Dave Phillips discussing the way the club have diversified and grown new revenues: https://twitter.com/lovefutebol/status/1217002134836785152

[Samie]

Man City and PSG are artificially inflated. We don't count them fuckers. 

[Suareznumber7]

Amazing the growth we've seen off the pitch since FSG came in.

[Schmarn]

The one other factor at play here is that we are now one of the top clubs in world football and if we maintain that position, revenues will continue to grow for the simple reason that young kids getting into football all around the world will be drawn to us in ever greater numbers. That means more merchandise sales on the financial level and on the human level we are building a new generation of fans to future proof us against the downturn whenever it comes. We've really only been at the top for the last two years so this is just the start of our growth spurt.

I take the point another poster made about the good old days when money didn't rule football. One of the reasons we have gone without the league for 30 years is that we were the last of the big clubs to accept the new reality and appreciate what could be gained by having a bigger stadium and establishing a brand. It would be great if the world were otherwise but it isn't and I'd rather we succeed on a basis that is still sustainable and which doesn't rely on owners who have earned stolen their vast wealth by plundering their own country of its natural resources and who have a shameful human rights record.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Cheers, interesting that. Probably doesn't include revenue from You Tube subs channel either.
What was interesting about the Deloitte report was the changing nature of sponsorhips. It's no longer write a cheque. Companies want to know what clubs know about their supporter base and how they engage with them. To be fair, Ayre alluded to this several years ago, but things have clearly moved on in this regard.

Agree with comment on ticket prices, well sort of, in that corps should pay whatever they can stand. But I'd love to see a concerted effort to get more youth in the ground. 5000 tickets for say 15-21s at a £25 reduction would "cost" just under £2.4m. In reality it wouldn't be 5000, but if it was half that, you are in the realms of just over £1m a year and God knows how it could positively affect the atmosphere. It's also an investment in the next generation of match going fans.

[calvin]

City earning over €50 million more than us in commercial revenue is the stand out for me. That's highly suspicious to say the least..

[Ossie T]

Yet, I'm still paying £54quid for a match tkt to sit in the gods.

[rebel23]

Apologies. It’s PSG which have currently had theirs written down for FFP purposes. City’s are being looked at as part of the new UEFA investigation.

End of the season they're supposed to report. I won't hold my breath though.

[markedasred]

The biggest surprise is Manchester United still being bigger than us all these years after Fergie left. The football is usually dogshit to watch, except if you are the sort who likes seeing car crashes. Someone there has done something clever with sponsorship over the past 7 years. Alternatively, I suppose these things are slow moving, this long feted changing of the guard.

[tubby]

The biggest surprise is Manchester United still being bigger than us all these years after Fergie left. The football is usually dogshit to watch, except if you are the sort who likes seeing car crashes. Someone there has done something clever with sponsorship over the past 7 years. Alternatively, I suppose these things are slow moving, this long feted changing of the guard.

We had a lot of catching up to do to get near Utd commercially.

[CraigDS]

The biggest surprise is Manchester United still being bigger than us all these years after Fergie left. The football is usually dogshit to watch, except if you are the sort who likes seeing car crashes. Someone there has done something clever with sponsorship over the past 7 years. Alternatively, I suppose these things are slow moving, this long feted changing of the guard.

Not that surprising. We held onto our financial superiority over a huge amount of the league based on history as much as anything. That sort of support, and therefore commercial pull, doesn’t go away that quick when you’ve decades of history backing it up.

[Samie]

We were absolutely dog shit in terms of commercialising in the 90's and were left behind. I doubt we ever catch up in our lifetime.

[markedasred]

We were absolutely dog shit in terms of commercialising in the 90's and were left behind. I doubt we ever catch up in our lifetime.

Except we literally are going to in the next two years, according to some of the above reporting.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

We were absolutely dog shit in terms of commercialising in the 90's and were left behind. I doubt we ever catch up in our lifetime.

Have you looked at the figures and read the reports?

[Samie]

Yeah and we've not overtaken them have we? 

[CraigDS]

Yeah and we've not overtaken them have we? 

Are you telling us you’re about to pop your clogs?

[Samie]

 

Who knows mate. But the mancs commercial pull outweighs ours, you have to admit that.

[CraigDS]

Who knows mate. But the mancs commercial pull outweighs ours, you have to admit that.

For now. If they don’t make the CL this season then their commercial income will drop quite dramatically, and our Nike deal will kick in, so there will be a big swing.

[BaZ87]

Yeah and we've not overtaken them have we? 

Utd's revenue for this season will be somewhere between £560m and £580m - confirmed by Woodward. Depending on how far we progress in the CL ours will be somewhere from £550m, possibly as high as £590m. It's possible that we'll be turning over more than them this season.

If Utd fail to qualify for the CL this season, it's difficult to see how they can increase revenue much, if at all, over £580m. Their commercial revenue has barely moved in years, there's little scope for further growth and we know their Adidas deal has a clause in that will reduce what they receive should they miss out on the CL again - very possible other deals do too.  On the other hand, with our Nike deal kicking in and far greater scope for more and bigger commercial deals, it's difficult to see how our revenue will be less than £600m.

[clinical]

Any guess what our losses will be in this years accounts?

Will include Fabinho, Keita, Shaqiri and Alisson transfers. As well as new contracts for half the team.

[Samie]

But that doesn't mean we will somehow become #1 does it? I mean this lot have been top of the tree for nigh on two decades on the commercial side of things, we're still playing catch up.

[CraigDS]

But that doesn't mean we will somehow become #1 does it? I mean this lot have been top of the tree for nigh on two decades on the commercial side of things, we're still playing catch up.

I mean it was literally just described to you how it could mean that 

[Samie]

I get you mate and I'm not explaining it very well. 

What I mean is they've got such a head start from us that it's incredible what we've done to close that gap but they still have that solid foundation built up where it won't hurt them financially too much unless they go on to not win the title like us for the next 20 odd years.

[CraigDS]

I get you mate and I'm not explaining it very well. 

What I mean is they've got such a head start from us that it's incredible what we've done to close that gap but they still have that solid foundation built up where it won't hurt them financially too much unless they go on to not win the title like us for the next 20 odd years.

You’ve read mine and Baz’s posts above, right?

They’ve got massive penalties due if they fail to reach the CL this season (likely) whilst also having static commercial growth over recent years. Whilst we’ve big increases due from Nike and on the back of the CL win, which will only increase even more if we win the PL in style as it looks like we will.

It’ll be so close this season (year end 2020), and so so so close (if not us over taking them) in y/e 2021).

[BaZ87]

For now. If they don’t make the CL this season then their commercial income will drop quite dramatically, and our Nike deal will kick in, so there will be a big swing.

I'm not sure their commercial revenue will drop hugely. The Adidas clause is structured in a way that the £20m odd they stand to lose will be spread over the remaining years of their agreement. Iinm they'll have 5 years remaining on their deal so they'll received £4m less for each of the next 5 seasons. If they then fail to qualify again, the next £20m odd will be spread over the next 4 years, with an additional £5m(ish) being deducted on top of the other £4m.

I'd guestimate that they'll manage to tread water, possibly even make slight gains in their commercial revenue, even if they miss out on the CL. But there's no scope for a big increase. What will be interesting is what happens with their shirt sponsor when the Chevy deal ends in 18 months. Iinm it's still the biggest deal in football and they may struggle to match it.

[CraigDS]

I'm not sure their commercial revenue will drop hugely. The Adidas clause is structured in a way that the £20m odd they stand to lose will be spread over the remaining years of their agreement. Iinm they'll have 5 years remaining on their deal so they'll received £4m less for each of the next 5 seasons. If they then fail to qualify again, the next £20m odd will be spread over the next 4 years, with an additional £5m(ish) being deducted on top of the other £4m.

You sure about that? I haven’t read it for a while but thought it dropped by something like 30% per season they aren’t in the CL after the 2nd successive year of not being in it.

[clinical]

You sure about that? I haven’t read it for a while but thought it dropped by something like 30% per season they aren’t in the CL after the 2nd successive year of not being in it.

That's what I saw too. But they are getting £75m a year so would miss out on £22.5m.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38015518

[CraigDS]

From their accounts...

“Failure to participate in the CL for two or more consecutive seasons would also reduce annual payments under the agreement with adidas by 30% of the applicable payment for the year in which the second or other consecutive season of non-participation falls.”

[Samie]

You’ve read mine and Baz’s posts above, right?

They’ve got massive penalties due if they fail to reach the CL this season (likely) whilst also having static commercial growth over recent years. Whilst we’ve big increases due from Nike and on the back of the CL win, which will only increase even more if we win the PL in style as it looks like we will.

It’ll be so close this season (year end 2020), and so so so close (if not us over taking them) in y/e 2021).

Yeah, reading is one thing understanding what shit you type is another. 

[rebel23]

FSG have done a terrific job over the last 8 years they have virtually doubled the revenues and there is still further room to grow (New stand, Nike deal) plus we're winning the league so we should attract more commercial opportunities.

[BaZ87]

From their accounts...

“Failure to participate in the CL for two or more consecutive seasons would also reduce annual payments under the agreement with adidas by 30% of the applicable payment for the year in which the second or other consecutive season of non-participation falls.”

From a cash flow point of view they'd not receive the 30%/£21m however from a profit and loss point of view that £21m is spread over the remaining years of the contract.  It wasn't exactly how I said however. The £21m is spread over the full 10 years of the deal (£2.1m per year) - as they'll be in year 6 of the contract, that accounting period will be hit with a £12.6m deduction and then the following 4 years will be reduced by £2.1m per year.

Not the best source but there's quotes here from Utd's CFO regarding the clause in relation to the possibility of them missing out back in 2016:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/man-united-confirm-take-21m-10433265

[bornandbRED]

From a cash flow point of view they'd not receive the 30%/£21m however from a profit and loss point of view that £21m is spread over the remaining years of the contract.  It wasn't exactly how I said however. The £21m is spread over the full 10 years of the deal (£2.1m per year) - as they'll be in year 6 of the contract, that accounting period will be hit with a £12.6m deduction and then the following 4 years will be reduced by £2.1m per year.

Not the best source but there's quotes here from Utd's CFO regarding the clause in relation to the possibility of them missing out back in 2016:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/man-united-confirm-take-21m-10433265

You're right. The current amount being paid by Adidas is recognised cumulatively as a receivable. The reduction of this figure may be amortised as an expense to the P+L. So whilst there would a reduction in assets, net impact upon revenue (expense in the P/L) would be the annual amortised figure, which is pretty immaterial.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Any guess what our losses will be in this years accounts?

Will include Fabinho, Keita, Shaqiri and Alisson transfers. As well as new contracts for half the team.

Put a very rough guestimate in the bitters thread.
While I understand how the numbers work at a high level, I'm very aware that Baz and born know far more than me and am happy to be corrected. 

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

How much we get from Standard Chartered, and how much they get from Chevrolet? Just curious since this thread is about these things.

[OneTouchFooty]

Just think if John Henry ran an oil state and owned an airline we could "sponsor" Anfield for £250m too and be top of the list.

[BaZ87]

How much we get from Standard Chartered, and how much they get from Chevrolet? Just curious since this thread is about these things.

We're in the first year of our renewed SC deal which is reportedly worth £40m per year. Utd's Chevrolet deal earns them £64m per year. That deal was insane, highlighted by the fact that nobody unless I've missed something has matched or bettered it since it was signed in 2012 (although didn't start until 2014) and the guy responsible for the deal was sacked by Chevrolet too.