Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Yes he blew up against the side that had almost double the possession more than against the shite we were playing.

Your point ?

[Son of Spion]

Don’t know how old you are, but…
“You’re a bastard referee”
“Who’s the bastard in the black”
“The referee’s a wanker”
We’re all regularly heard at Anfield back in the day. Note though how this was before the days when refs became preening attention seekers, anxious to build their profiles for their post reffing career.

And to those with thinning locks -

"Your arse is on your head" 

"You badly headed twat" 

Given how abject most of them are, I think they get off lightly these days as far as verbal stick goes.

[Redley]

I know that the ground was going mad at one stage but then on Boxing Day Turf Moor were signing ‘whose the scouser in the black’ at one stage, at Tierney of all people.

And some people think Chris Jericho is a trusted source on whether aliens built the pyramids. Sometimes people can be wrong.

[Eeyore]

I agree with you about Neville 100% but the question isn’t whether the ex Man United player who ran the full length of the pitch to celebrate in front of our fans has a bias, as he clearly does - its whether the referee does.

As I said above, he’s given 16 fouls against us and 15 against Newcastle, 3 yellow cards against us and 5 against Newcastle as well as 2 penalties in our favour - those numbers don’t indicate anything untoward but I appreciate that it doesn’t account for how many he’s potentially let go against Newcastle.

I know that the ground was going mad at one stage but then on Boxing Day Turf Moor were signing ‘whose the scouser in the black’ at one stage, at Tierney of all people.

I haven’t watched the game back, when I was watching it it felt as though he was giving everything against us, but I watch the match desperate for us to win, which is not exactly the best position to judge a refereeing performance from.

We ran Newcastle ragged.

xG..................... 7.11                v           0.60
Possession...........62%                v           38%
shots...................34                  v            5
shots on target.....15                  v            3
big chances ..........9                   v            2


Given the above stats and the fact that Newcastle are a snide team that continually looks to stop counterattacks then for me the likelihood should be that the number of fouls should be similarly skewed.

Newcastle were constantly stopping counters, making last-ditch challenges and fully displaying the dark arts. Yet according to Taylor, they made fewer fouls than us. The issue with Taylor is the difference in the threshold for fouls for and against us. The three yellow cards we received were a fucking joke.

If he had applied the same threshold for yellow cards for Newcastle players then the game would have had to be called off because they would have run out of players. 

 
As for Tierney, you do realise that happens because the likes of Sky love to stoke controversy and build up the underdogs. Liverpool get fucked over and get goals ruled out and there isn't a peep because it helps create the false narrative that the Premier League is the best League in the World.

It shows how competitive it is. We get any decision in our favour and it is instantly wrong. That way you can pretend that games are competitive. Keep telling Burnley fans and those down the bottom they are hard done by and they keep the belief. Come out and tell them the truth that they are dog shit and they will stop tuning in.

Look at the classic example. Look at Everton. Everyone knows they are shit and cheated. Yet the likes of Sky love a hard luck story and a boost to TV ratings.

[Jm55]

And some people think Chris Jericho is a trusted source on whether aliens built the pyramids. Sometimes people can be wrong.

Yep, which was my point, people can be wrong which is why people referencing the ground being fuming with Taylor isn’t evidence of anything and I say that as someone whose been part of those crowds doing that exact thing on hundreds of occasions.

My point is that when people get swept up in the emotion of a match it’s very easy to feel that everything is going against you, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re wrong to think that (as the fact that you’re wrapped up in the emotion of a match doesn’t mean that everything isn’t going against you,) but it’s why I ask the question as to exactly which decisions Taylor made that people are unhappy with.

I personally wouldn’t be able to name one which I’m 100% certain he got wrong but I could name at least 10 that I was swearing at the TV about, if I watched it back I’d be able to but I haven’t and probably won’t.

Not saying anyone is wrong for any view which they hold about it, just questioning the logic.

[na fir dearg]

I think the Jota one was a stonewall penalty though. The keeper's elbow has come down on Jota's heel as his foot is going up as part of his running motion. I think if you take away Ratboy's narrative then both our penalties were stonewallers.

The other thing is that Taylor has to be certain that Attwell on VAR won't send him to the monitor. I think what needs to be remembered is that refereeing is a dog-eat-dog business. Each match official is marked on each game and they have a League table of referees that decides on which referees get the big games and which refs get things like European games, Cup finals, and tournaments.

The major factor for how a referee is scored for a game is KMI 'key match incidents'. Taylor and Atwell are both UEFA officials who are competing against each other for the big games. That for me is why we should have specialist VAR's who aren't trying to make a name for themselves as a referee.   

the Jota one is never a stonewall penalty, I don't even think it's a penalty, why was there such a delayed reaction to him going down? Just stay on your feet and stick it in the net

[Eeyore]

the Jota one is never a stonewall penalty, I don't even think it's a penalty, why was there such a delayed reaction to him going down? Just stay on your feet and stick it in the net

Watch a hurdler brush a hurdle and then fall several strides later. It is what happens. You answered the question yourself. Jota stays on his feet and scores so why wouldn't he?

Add in the fact that Jota is competing for a spot in the team with quality strikers and Mo has just missed a penalty and for me if he could he would have just stuck it in.

[Andar]

Don’t know how old you are, but…
“You’re a bastard referee”
“Who’s the bastard in the black”
“The referee’s a wanker”
We’re all regularly heard at Anfield back in the day. Note though how this was before the days when refs became preening attention seekers, anxious to build their profiles for their post reffing career.

Those chants are heard far and wide, but it's quite different when naming the ref and telling him to fuck off. Or calling them 'manc bastards'. Not heard that at any other ground.

It's going to widen the divide between the manc refs and ourselves even further.

I just believe it's going to add fuel to the fire. Not too keen on the chants when we're in the thick of a title race.

[decosabute]

the Jota one is never a stonewall penalty, I don't even think it's a penalty, why was there such a delayed reaction to him going down? Just stay on your feet and stick it in the net

Even if you think he could have kept going (I don't), the contact at the very least meant he was longer going to reach a ball he otherwise easily would've tapped into an empty net. I can't believe there's a debate about it, or even this weird notion that the ref did well to give it.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

the Jota one is never a stonewall penalty, I don't even think it's a penalty, why was there such a delayed reaction to him going down? Just stay on your feet and stick it in the net

Have you ever kicked a ball ?

Have you ever lost your stride whilst running full pelt ?


Never a penalty 

[Yorkykopite]

Referees have openly admitted that they have given decisions to even things up or because they have lost the players on one team. Taylor would have been well aware that his bias wasn't going unnoticed. 

Can you give me some examples?

As for giving the Pens both decisions were correct. He had a clear view of both incidents and there was contact both times. What was he supposed to do waive it away and then hope Attwell backed him up? 

Of course both decisions were correct. But that's not the point of corruption. Corruption is making the "incorrect" decision. If the ref had made the incorrect decision he would have been backed by VAR both times. Especially as VAR is meant to be "corrupt" as well. This is how corruption works! No problem.

[Eeyore]

Can you give me some examples?

Of course both decisions were correct. But that's not the point of corruption. Corruption is making the "incorrect" decision. If the ref had made the incorrect decision he would have been backed by VAR both times. Especially as VAR is meant to be "corrupt" as well. This is how corruption works! No problem.

Former Premier League referee Mark Clattenburg has revealed he awarded a penalty to Atletico Madrid in the 2016 Champions League to even up the game after an earlier error for Real Madrid’s opener.

The 46-year-old was one of the highest-profile referees in world football at the time and officiated the Champions League final, FA Cup final and Uefa European Championship final in the same summer, having begun his Premier League career in 2004.

The final saw Real Madrid win their 11th European Cup after beating their local rivals in a penalty shootout, the first of Zinedine Zidane’s three successive victories in the competition as manager of Los Blancos.


Sergio Ramos gave his side the lead early in the first half despite receiving the ball in a marginally offside position, an error he blames on linesman Simon Beck.

“When the ball gets delivered in from the free-kick, I knew there was a touch by Gareth Bale in the middle, which then put Ramos in who scored the goal,” Clattenburg told The Brazilian Shirt Name Podcast. “I spoke to the assistant [Beck] and it was very difficult because of the noise. But I’m screaming down the earpiece saying ‘Do you know there was a touch in the middle?’


“He just froze, and I could see him looking at the big screen. I’m screaming at him, and I restart play, and he’s completely frozen. When you watch it back it’s a difficult decision to make of course, but one that I would expect my assistant to make [and award offside].”

Just after half-time, Clattenburg awarded Atletico a penalty for a foul by Portuguese defender Pepe on former Liverpool striker Fernando Torres.

“I was very fortunate in this final,” he added. “Two or three minutes after half-time I’m presented with a really 50/50 penalty with [Fernando] Torres very clever getting in front of Pepe to draw a foul. Is it a foul? It’s very subjective. it’s one that you wouldn’t want to settle the game on that’s for sure. And I gave it, because it gives a balance back.


“If I don’t award that penalty then what would happen is Atletico would go: ‘We’ve [conceded] an offside goal, and we should have had a penalty. It was one of those perfect scenarios in refereeing. Pepe comes running and says: ‘Mark! That wasn’t a foul!’ We put the ball on the spot, [Antoine] Griezmann hits it and it hits the crossbar.

“I just thought, ‘Wow. This is my day. This is the perfect day in refereeing.’ I’m thinking, ‘Now they can’t blame me.’”




For me Yorky it is about institutionalised bias. The corrupt part is allowing it to happen.

Your argument is akin to saying that because the Met is institutionally racist then every black person gets arrested and is then convicted because the Judiciary is racist and always backs the Police. It isn't clear-cut it is about how different people and clubs are treated.

Tomkins has demonstrated beyond doubt with huge data sets that Liverpool and players like Salah get treated differently from their contemporaries. The data shows a clear bias and for me, a failure to correct that and to fail to implement protocols is where the corruption comes in.

Allowing referees to moonlight for nation-states that own Premier League clubs is the clearest example. Those nation-states not getting 100% of decisions does not disprove that.

[Eeyore]

Have you ever kicked a ball ?

Have you ever lost your stride whilst running full pelt ?


Never a penalty 

This sums it up for me.



There is clear contact on Jota's left ankle with the keeper's elbow coming down on his ankle as he is trying to keep his running stride going.


Then you see this image in which his eyes are on the ball and you can see his right leg starting to buckle because he has been knocked out of his stride.

If Jota wanted a penalty then he just runs straight into the keeper.

[CHOPPER]

[Skeeve]

the Jota one is never a stonewall penalty, I don't even think it's a penalty, why was there such a delayed reaction to him going down? Just stay on your feet and stick it in the net

There was a "delayed" reaction as it was the back leg that the keeper made contact with, if he wasn't affected by the keeper, he has an open fucking goal to roll the ball into and if you think he decided that a potential penalty was a safer option than that then you need your bloody head examined.

[Historical Fool]

Like Yorgie probably was, I was hoping for a better example than that. Oh well …

[Realgman]

Yeah, the contact was late in the move from the keeper, the elbow clearly comes down on Jotas leg with force, which is a penno.
Too many people are ignoring the latter part of the move, concentrating only on the initial slide in, where dubravka pulls his arms in... ignoring that part of his movement was force on jotas ankle.. he did it on purpose too in my opinion

There was a "delayed" reaction as it was the back leg that the keeper made contact with, if he wasn't affected by the keeper, he has an open fucking goal to roll the ball into and if you think he decided that a potential penalty was a safer option than that then you need your bloody head examined.

[newterp]

Like Yorgie probably was, I was hoping for a better example than that. Oh well …

Yorgie the Corgie!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Op

What a load of total shite

I'm on holiday at the moment and watched the Arsenal and Newcastle games in a bar

On both occasions there were loads of neutral fans in their (Scottish) they couldn't believe the ref in the Arsenal game and after the Newcastle game, a couple of them - both making a point that they support Scottish teams (Dumferline and Raith Rovers) and said that they don't normally bother with English football, but watched it with their mates as it was on.

They said they have never seen such an obviously corrupt referee in their life and couldn't believe what they were seeing

I was even sat next to a lad from Bolton (Man U) and a lad that supported West Brom and both of them said the same thing

If it's just Liverpool fans thinking it's a fucking joke then why do Man U fans (of all people), West Brom and random Scottish fans think it's fucking bent

Every fucking week we see some absolute shit stain trying to make out people are wearing tin foil hats and every fucking week we get fucked by outragous shite from PGMOL and it's been going on for fucking decades


Just get fucked


This is what I predicted before kick off

______________________________________________________________

I'm going for Taylor allowing our players to be kicked up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, a perfectly good goal ruled out for fuck all and a shady as fuck Newcastle penalty with Klopp being shown a red for just standing there

I predict that the inbred fuckheads in the media will once again completely fail to do their jobs and will fail to notice anything.

Again.


Taylor was as fucking bent as he's always fucking been

[classycarra]

This is what I predicted before kick off

______________________________________________________________

I'm going for Taylor allowing our players to be kicked up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, a perfectly good goal ruled out for fuck all and a shady as fuck Newcastle penalty with Klopp being shown a red for just standing there

I predict that the inbred fuckheads in the media will once again completely fail to do their jobs and will fail to notice anything.

Again.

0% hit rate - absolutely nothing landed - great prediction!

[kasperoff]

We had 16 fouls given against us, Newcastle 15.

We had 3 yhellow cards, Newcastle 5.

I'm not defending the ref, I think Taylor is a prick and I was as annoyed as anyone.

What I do question is whether the emotion of the match made me feel more hard done by than perhaps the evidence on the pitch suggested.

The obvious devils advocate argument to the above is that Newcastle were a gang of absolute grocks determined on destroying play so the fact that the numbers are as even as they are suggests that we were dealt with more harshly than they were, but again it's subjective.

I’m in the minority here, but I think the Newcastle game was reffed pretty well. VAR actually got the offsides spot on. I do think Joelinton deserved a yellow for the pull. Ref could have easily waved away the second pen and I don’t think VAR would have overruled him either.

Like you say, the nature of the game was very frustrating. We should have been pissing it, buit looked like we were going throw points away for the majority of the game. I think this played its part in us getting on the refs back.

That said, the bar is very low. We’ve been reffed so poorly this season, any half decent officiating looks good.

[Historical Fool]

I’m in the minority here, but I think the Newcastle game was reffed pretty well. VAR actually got the offsides spot on. I do think Joelinton deserved a yellow for the pull. Ref could have easily waved away the second pen and I don’t think VAR would have overruled him either.

Like you say, the nature of the game was very frustrating. We should have been pissing it, buit looked like we were going throw points away for the majority of the game. I think this played its part in us getting on the refs back.

That said, the bar is very low. We’ve been reffed so poorly this season, any half decent officiating looks good.

I don’t think you are in the minority, you’re in the silent majority …

[Andy @ Allerton!]

0% hit rate - absolutely nothing landed - great prediction!

So our players weren't kicked up and down the pitch for 90 minutes?

You're on crack

Also that 'offside' looked a load of shite on the coverage I saw and afterwards the comms were saying it was on

Our two IMMEDIATE booking for dissent (After Taylor had ignored what caused the dissent) was a fucking joke

They should have had at least two players sent off and the bias was clear and fucking obvious

[classycarra]

So our players weren't kicked up and down the pitch for 90 minutes?

You're on crack

I'd had a small can on the train, but hadn't touched any base.

And no, they weren't. Granted I haven't seen the game in full, but the worst challenges I can remember were both called as fouls and booked - their youngster (with shit hair) and Guimares (with shit hair)

All your other predictions were way off, and the marginal offsides called looked offside (when they disallowed goals for both teams), and onside when they allowed for our goals.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'd had a small can on the train, but hadn't touched any base.

And no, they weren't. Granted I haven't seen the game in full, but the worst challenges I can remember were both called as fouls and booked - their youngster (with shit hair) and Guimares (with shit hair)

All your other predictions were way off, and the marginal offsides called looked offside (when they disallowed goals for both teams), and onside when they allowed for our goals.

So you're arguing with people who watched the game when you haven't even fucking watched the game



Also, explain why neutral (And even anti-Liverpool fans) were saying how bent it was

I can accept that I'm biased and I fucking hate Taylor with a fucking passion, but them saying that seems to make zero sense. But then again you didn't even watch the game so what the fuck are you on about?

Taylor is the same every single time he refs us - the oppo kick us up and down and he usually gives as many fouls against us as for them - despite most games he refs sees us with all the possession and all of the control

Doesn't make much fucking sense that one of the cleanest teams in the league with the most possession suddenly become one of the dirtiest when a fucking Manc refs us does it?

[classycarra]

So you're arguing with people who watched the game when you haven't even fucking watched the game

I wouldn't normally be so foolishly over confident, but it's you Andy

You make nonsensical catastrophising predictions before every game and they make 'a broken clock being right two minutes in a day' look like an aspirational hit rate for you to aim for.

I gave examples of them kicking our players twice (and getting yellows for it). You've said they 'kicked us up and down all game', and have provided even fewer examples than someone who didn't catch the 90 minutes. you're not doing a good job of convincing people you are right

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I wouldn't normally be so foolishly over confident, but it's you Andy

You make nonsensical catastrophising predictions before every game and they make 'a broken clock being right twice a day' look like an aspirational hit rate for you to aim for.

I gave examples of them kicking our players twice (and getting yellows for it). You've said they 'kicked us up and down all game', and have provided even fewer examples than someone who didn't catch the 90 minutes. you're not doing a good job of convincing people you are right

I'm on holiday and going to bed. Other people in this thread, the match thread and the VAR thread have all given good examples and there are hundreds of pages of it if you can be arsed

But you have a fucking tin hat on thinking that a fucking Manc with a family that all have United season tickets from an area in Mancester that is 100% United couldn't possibly have anything against Liverpool or a Liverpool team

Do you even fucking live in Liverpool? Have you ever fucking worked in Manchester? I worked there for ten years near where he is from and Manchester areas have support based on that location - totally unlike Liverpool where members of the same family are Red or Blue

[classycarra]

I'm on holiday and going to bed. Other people in this thread, the match thread and the VAR thread have all given good examples and there are hundreds of pages of it if you can be arsed

But you have a fucking tin hat on thinking that a fucking Manc with a family that all have United season tickets from an area in Mancester that is 100% United couldn't possibly have anything against Liverpool or a Liverpool team

Do you even fucking live in Liverpool? Have you ever fucking worked in Manchester? I worked there for ten years near where he is from and Manchester areas have support based on that location - totally unlike Liverpool where members of the same family are Red or Blue

Sleep well mate.

All those things you've just argued? They're completely unrelated to what I said - you're arguing against a position/someone that doesn't exist.

The fact you can't even think of a third bad challenge implies that you were probably wrong to suggest they kicked us everywhere. You just made some predictions about the reffing of the game, and claimed you got them right - when literally none of them happened

[Crosby Nick]

Op

What a load of total shite

I'm on holiday at the moment and watched the Arsenal and Newcastle games in a bar

On both occasions there were loads of neutral fans in their (Scottish) they couldn't believe the ref in the Arsenal game and after the Newcastle game, a couple of them - both making a point that they support Scottish teams (Dumferline and Raith Rovers) and said that they don't normally bother with English football, but watched it with their mates as it was on.

They said they have never seen such an obviously corrupt referee in their life and couldn't believe what they were seeing

I was even sat next to a lad from Bolton (Man U) and a lad that supported West Brom and both of them said the same thing

If it's just Liverpool fans thinking it's a fucking joke then why do Man U fans (of all people), West Brom and random Scottish fans think it's fucking bent

Every fucking week we see some absolute shit stain trying to make out people are wearing tin foil hats and every fucking week we get fucked by outragous shite from PGMOL and it's been going on for fucking decades


Just get fucked


This is what I predicted before kick off

______________________________________________________________

I'm going for Taylor allowing our players to be kicked up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, a perfectly good goal ruled out for fuck all and a shady as fuck Newcastle penalty with Klopp being shown a red for just standing there

I predict that the inbred fuckheads in the media will once again completely fail to do their jobs and will fail to notice anything.

Again.


Taylor was as fucking bent as he's always fucking been

At last, some nuance.

[tubby]

Was a really good thread for a while.

[CHOPPER]

This geezer is in on it as well, the double bluff being played.

It’s not just that the lack of ruthlessness in the final third risks dropping points, but it creates a frustration that, at the moment, seems to be manifesting, among fans at least, in ludicrous conspiracy theories about refereeing (the soft award of the second penalty, presumably, was Anthony Taylor under deep cover, giving Liverpool a decision in a game they were going to win anyway to cover his tracks).

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/jan/02/manchester-city-premier-league-title-favorites

[Jm55]

I heard that if you say’PGMOL’ whilst facing a mirror five times Andy appears.

[kasperoff]

This geezer is in on it as well, the double bluff being played.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/jan/02/manchester-city-premier-league-title-favorites

I'm very suspicious of bias amongst refs, but this was not a game that you'd present as a smoking gun. There were several incidents where we could have been done over, but weren't.

[Yorkykopite]

So our players weren't kicked up and down the pitch for 90 minutes?

You're on crack

Also that 'offside' looked a load of shite on the coverage I saw and afterwards the comms were saying it was on

Our two IMMEDIATE booking for dissent (After Taylor had ignored what caused the dissent) was a fucking joke

They should have had at least two players sent off and the bias was clear and fucking obvious

How's the holiday going Andy? You sound like you're having a nice, relaxing time.

[Jm55]

Op

What a load of total shite

I'm on holiday at the moment and watched the Arsenal and Newcastle games in a bar

On both occasions there were loads of neutral fans in their (Scottish) they couldn't believe the ref in the Arsenal game and after the Newcastle game, a couple of them - both making a point that they support Scottish teams (Dumferline and Raith Rovers) and said that they don't normally bother with English football, but watched it with their mates as it was on.

They said they have never seen such an obviously corrupt referee in their life and couldn't believe what they were seeing

I was even sat next to a lad from Bolton (Man U) and a lad that supported West Brom and both of them said the same thing

If it's just Liverpool fans thinking it's a fucking joke then why do Man U fans (of all people), West Brom and random Scottish fans think it's fucking bent

Every fucking week we see some absolute shit stain trying to make out people are wearing tin foil hats and every fucking week we get fucked by outragous shite from PGMOL and it's been going on for fucking decades


Just get fucked


This is what I predicted before kick off

______________________________________________________________

I'm going for Taylor allowing our players to be kicked up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, a perfectly good goal ruled out for fuck all and a shady as fuck Newcastle penalty with Klopp being shown a red for just standing there

I predict that the inbred fuckheads in the media will once again completely fail to do their jobs and will fail to notice anything.

Again.


Taylor was as fucking bent as he's always fucking been

Would love to be a fly on the wall in the bar that Andy watched the match in.

[Kloppage Time]

Read through the Newcastle forum thread on the recent match they reckon the ref was a homer and that Neville has become pro LFC in his punditry, we all hear and see what we want, it's called tribalism, cannot be helped

[Yorkykopite]

Would love to be a fly on the wall in the bar that Andy watched the match in.

BOLTONIAN: There's another live game on TV tonight lads.
BAGGIE: Top stuff. See you in the bar again fellas?
DUNFERMLINE BLOKE: Och, we could gae into toon and watch it there.
BAGGIE: You don't like the hotel bar?
RAITH BLOKE: It's nay the bar is it?
BOLTONIAN: You're talking about that Liverpool bloke.
DUNFERMLINE BLOKE: Aye
BAGGIE: Jeez, yeah. He seemed more interested in the referee than the footy.
RAITH BLOKE: Bit unhinged wasn't he?
DUNFERMLINE: Ranting and raving aboot the Global Refereeing Conspiracy agin the Scoosers.
BOLTONIAN: You agreed with him!
BAGGIE: Jeez, we all did. You had to.
RAITH BLOKE: Just tae shut him up.
BOLTONIAN: Didn't work though, did it?
BAGGIE: No. That's why we should find another bar.
.....
DUNFERMLINE BLOKE: Shit he's here. Let's pretend to be dead.

[Eeyore]

Like Yorgie probably was, I was hoping for a better example than that. Oh well …

Really I gave an example of an official effectively fixing the result of a Champions League final. Clattenberg admits he knew that the first goal should have been disallowed. Instead of overruling his assistant and making the correct decision he quite literally takes the law into his own hands.

The penalty he gives is completely dependent on the officiating teams earlier mistake. He is also making decisions dependent on what the Atletico players will think. That is corrupt. He is making decisions for personal gain. He is making decions that will mean he isn't blamed for the officiating teams mistakes.

Not only that Clattenberg playing God with the Rules means that any punters who bet on  correct score, under over goals or Both teams to score No have lost their money because of the actions of Clattenberg.

Not only that but if Clattenberg rules out the offside Madrid goal and the game goes the same then Atletico win 1-0.

[Jm55]

Really I gave an example of an official effectively fixing the result of a Champions League final. Clattenberg admits he knew that the first goal should have been disallowed. Instead of overruling his assistant and making the correct decision he quite literally takes the law into his own hands.

The penalty he gives is completely dependent on the officiating teams earlier mistake. He is also making decisions dependent on what the Atletico players will think. That is corrupt. He is making decisions for personal gain. He is making decions that will mean he isn't blamed for the officiating teams mistakes.

Not only that Clattenberg playing God with the Rules means that any punters who bet on  correct score, under over goals or Both teams to score No have lost their money because of the actions of Clattenberg.

Not only that but if Clattenberg rules out the offside Madrid goal and the game goes the same then Atletico win 1-0.

Giving decisions that mean he isn't blamed for the officiating teams mistakes is not the same as 'effectively fixing' a match, he even says himself in the same interview that the penalty he awarded for Torres was 50/50 and 'not one which you'd want to decide a game on'.

Now don't get me wrong, he shouldn't be doing that in a match which he's refereeing, two wrongs don't make a right and if you wanted to argue that him making decisions to avoid getting the blame is corrupt then I think you'd have a fair case to argue that. What it isn't, however, is Clattenburg giving a decision in order to make a certain result in the match liklier to happen, it's for his own, personal, selfish reasons.

I've said this several times but if the point that is being made is that referees have their own bias', their own agendas and that decisions on the pitch sometimes reflect them, then I'd agree, human beings inevitably try to cover their mistakes and the referees are like the police in that they'll close ranks and protect one another. I can absoltuely believe that decisions are made based on how likely a referee is to get called up on make the wrong one, I'm sure there's a huge element of self-preservation and that is totally wrong, it should be dealt with and the fact PGMOL are the way they are makes doing so very difficult.  If, however, the argument is being made that referees are somehow deliberately trying to influence the result of a game in order to favour certain teams then I don't see much evidence of that.

[jillcwhomever]

I hate this assumption that people are on the take, the bottom line is you have to actually prove this by seeing them accepting money. Just because referees work abroad doesn't necessarily mean they are on the take. It's so dangerous that people say this openly without any facts to back them up.